Letter from a Canadian friend

[Admin]

Letter from a Canadian friend

I was encouraged to read the letter by Jonathan Olson with the central point on the folly of the "one true way" doctrine and I applaud Jon's courage in taking the conversation there. Some may question how we get from CSA to the "one true way" issue but it's vital to understand that CSA exists anywhere a skewed hierarchical organizational structure exists. Large corporations. Professional sports. Religion. The military. Extended families. These are all systems that have a specific hierarchical organization that is intensely revered from within them. And these are all systems where sexual abuse and other kinds of abuse flourish. As serious as the CSA issue is - and is rightly being addressed more aggressively than it has ever been in the past - it remains a symptom of a far deeper issue of self-righteousness in the church, as Jonathan has correctly pointed out.

There's a common thread amongst us all and shown on this site and in the comments; that we're fighting to preserve the church. We don't actually want to burn the church down. NOT because it's the one true way, but because it's good. It's not perfect, it's good. And that's good enough. And maybe more importantly because it's OURS. It's what we've grown up with, or it's what we've come to love through a friend at school or a workmate or a random invitation on a community centre bulletin board. And we'd all be lying if we didn't admit to having enjoyed many days of encouragement and hope while going to meetings and conventions and that many of our closest friends are also professing. And we'd all also probably be lying if we didn't admit to being uncomfortable with the unwritten rules and regulations that have no scriptural merit. It's one thing to abide by a rule that is simply a tradition, Jesus warned specifically against that in Mark 7 and in John 15. It's another thing altogether - and not in a good way - to abide by a rule under the pretext that it achieves righteousness when in fact it's an empty tradition. Tradition in and of itself is not evil. We love our hymns. They're familiar to us and that's okay. God created us, God created music, God created our brains that migrate to a certain amount of traditional "comfort". God doesn't despise that in us. And although this may be open to other interpretations, in Matt 6:23 when Jesus said "But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!" it could mean that if the things that we think are Light and righteous are actually things that are meaningless (darkness), how much greater is THAT darkness. Because now we're distracted from the true light . . .JESUS. If we can get a false sense of security by what we wear or because we don't have a TV or a bottle of wine in our home, or because we think we have a membership card in the "one true way", then the enemy has us right where he wants us. He has us completely distracted from Jesus as the real way and the truth and the life.

I suggest that many of us would agree there is much about our church that is right and good. Clearly there's a growing mistrust in the leadership of the ministry (understatement), but I've no doubt every single one of us knows some workers that we love and respect deeply and that point us to Jesus, instead of just pointing us to a religion. And the reality is that our church HAS helped direct us to Jesus, which is exactly what it's supposed to do. Sometimes it's been done in spite of itself, but it's been done, and here we are. And many of us want to keep going to meetings in some way shape or form. But the minute we start worshipping the church, instead of where it should be pointing us (Jesus), that's when we've gone adrift. The minute we revere the vessel that holds the water more than the water that quenches our heart and soul, that's when the water spills and we wake up to the harsh reality that licking the cup doesn't quench our thirst.

Jesus didn't pull any punches in declaring that religion was over, and the veil would be rent. He was now THE way. The law pointed us to Him, but now that He'd arrived, the law could be put away, made obsolete (Heb 8:13). And this is not to suggest that anyone is esteeming the old law, but the point is that Jesus was trying to show us that the old law, and all religious law in general, was no longer needed now that we could have a relationship directly with God. At that wedding in the 2nd chapter of John, Jesus could have turned the water into wine in any vessel. Surely there were empty bottles or skins laying around everywhere. But he chose to use the pots full of water specifically meant to be used for ceremonial hand washing (same ceremonial handwashing he mocked in Mark 7). He wasn't just performing a miracle, he was making a mockery of the tradition of ceremonial handwashing, a mockery of trusting in religion. And yet here we are, some 2000 years later, with new versions of ceremonial handwashing, new laws, albeit "softer laws", but laws nonetheless, that are just a distraction from Jesus as the way and the truth.

Doing certain things because we believe that's how they were done in the first century church is a noble, and possibly even worthy cause. But trying to prove that our church is the continuation of the first church is flawed at its core when Jesus himself promised that He would be with us. Jesus was unimpressed in Matthew 3:9 with with their lineage connecting back to Abraham. And Jesus would be unimpressed today with the claim to be a religious continuation of the first century church. If we focus on Jesus, then THAT's the connection. Not lineage. Not provenance. The historical reality is that our church comes out of the radical reformation that followed the primary 16th century reformation, out of which came the anabaptist movement, of which we maintain many of the hallmarks of, for what remain as many good reasons. And all that is OKAY. It matters not where we've come from, it matters where we're going and what we believe in. And if we believe we're spirit led - as I've heard said often recently - then it's time to put our faith where our mouth is and cease with this borderline blasphemy of thinking we're saved because we belong to the correct religion. There's a big part of me that wants to post my name to this. But I'm committed to "staying with the ship" so to speak; to fight to make it right from within instead of fleeing into the night. And to be clear, I applaud the ones that have left the church but continue to meet and enjoy fellowship. I'm not quite there yet and I fear that we still have a long way to go before comments like mine will be well received by certain workers with influence. I am the elder of a precious little Sunday morning meeting in our home and as long as we're not ostracized like some have been, we can slowly but surely be part of a rising crescendo of voices from within the church. So, I won't post my name, in an attempt to try to keep my place so that our family can try to uphold a standard of truth from the inside, and to slowly effect change. I know many are doing the same, some quietly, some loudly, but God sees and hears all.

A brother and friend from Canada.

[bfvernon]

Doesn’t the fact that you can’t publish your name point you to the fact that you are in a cult? Nobody can take away your relationship with Jesus. Use this opportunity to become free.

[elizabethcoleman]

Really appreciate the letter from the Canadian elder and what he is trying to do. If effectual change can happen from the inside, that would be wonderful. God does see and hear, may he protect you.

Pray your little meeting may also be effectual in teaching salvation by grace, through faith, rather than "Jesus as our example".

[midwest]

May 31, 2023 21:40:24 GMT -5 midwest said:

May 31, 2023 21:15:36 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

Really appreciate the letter from the Canadian elder and what he is trying to do. If effectual change can happen from the inside, that would be wonderful. God does see and hear, may he protect you.

Pray your little meeting may also be effectual in teaching salvation by grace, through faith, rather than "Jesus as our example".

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

[elizabethcoleman]

May 31, 2023 21:43:40 GMT -5 midwest said:

May 31, 2023 21:40:24 GMT -5 midwest said:

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

This is a long topic. 

The general "gospel" of the Two-by-Twos is that "Jesus lived to show us how to live" and he is our "Pattern and example". 

This is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died to pay for our sins, and that this gift of salvation can only be received by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

From this true faith, flows true works (fruit). 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We cannot be saved by anything we do (ie we cannot be saved by following Jesus example). However, as new creations in Christ, we are created to do good works (produce fruit of what we already are).

We can only be saved by the blood of Christ, and if we know this truth, we will then follow Jesus' example. 

Many in the fellowship think they have true faith because they believe in a form of ministry. This is a method, not a message of salvation. 

Start with Romans and read through the whole book. Particularly Romans 3. Read it again and again. 

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

[elizabethcoleman]

May 31, 2023 21:43:40 GMT -5 midwest said:

May 31, 2023 21:40:24 GMT -5 midwest said:

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

PS - the 1 John 2 passage you mentioned is a great reference.


We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

It speaks to believers evidencing their faith by their works.

[Dan]

May 31, 2023 21:43:40 GMT -5 midwest said:

May 31, 2023 21:40:24 GMT -5 midwest said:

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

Jesus was/is the perfect example and we should follow his teachings, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6). But Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, "Thy faith hath made thee whole". No one can perfectly emulate Christ though, if we could be perfect we wouldn't need a Savior. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

We can't shelve his commandments and rely on faith, good works are a result of faith. As Elizabeth said, "We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved".

David was "a man after God's own heart", yet his sins with Bathsheba and Uriah were horrendous. That never made sense to me, but gave a slob like myself hope

Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). He, not us, overcame the world, and that made him a perfect sacrifice. Our faith in him is salvation. We can't overcome the world, some Workers can't even overcome the flesh, and Satan has drawn all of us into temptation/sin. What's left is faith, that's the ticket to paradise.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Love requires faith.. Enoch pleased God by faith (Hebrews 11:5). Works matter, but are secondary since salvation isn't earned. "I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). We are all screw-ups, none of us will ever be good enough (Isaiah 64:6).. Thank God for grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

   

 

[Deleted]

May 31, 2023 21:43:40 GMT -5 midwest said:

May 31, 2023 21:40:24 GMT -5 midwest said:

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

She lost this debate a while ago, doesn't get it at all...

[Deleted]

Jun 1, 2023 0:18:51 GMT -5 Dan said:

May 31, 2023 21:43:40 GMT -5 midwest said:

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

Jesus was/is the perfect example and we should follow his teachings, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked" (1 John 2:6). But Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, "Thy faith hath made thee whole". No one can perfectly emulate Christ though, if we could be perfect we wouldn't need a Savior. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23).

We can't shelve his commandments and rely on faith, good works are a result of faith. As Elizabeth said, "We obey the commandments of God because we are saved, not to be saved".

David was "a man after God's own heart", yet his sins with Bathsheba and Uriah were horrendous. That never made sense to me, but gave a slob like myself hope

Jesus said, "In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). He, not us, overcame the world, and that made him a perfect sacrifice. Our faith in him is salvation. We can't overcome the world, some Workers can't even overcome the flesh, and Satan has drawn all of us into temptation/sin. What's left is faith, that's the ticket to paradise.

"If ye love me, keep my commandments" (John 14:15). Love requires faith.. Enoch please God by faith (Hebrews 11:5). Works matter, but are secondary since salvation isn't earned. "I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). We are all screw-ups, none of us will ever be good enough (Isaiah 64:6).. Thank God for grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).

   

 

I think a number of those verses are missing in her Bible...

[fixit]

John 15:10 When you obey my commandments, you remain in my love, just as I obey my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

11 I have told you these things so that you will be filled with my joy. Yes, your joy will overflow!

12 This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you.

13 There is no greater love than to lay down one’s life for one’s friends.

14 You are my friends if you do what I command.

15 I no longer call you slaves, because a master doesn’t confide in his slaves. Now you are my friends, since I have told you everything the Father told me.

[verna]

May 31, 2023 22:24:51 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

May 31, 2023 21:43:40 GMT -5 midwest said:

What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example?

This is a long topic. 

The general "gospel" of the Two-by-Twos is that "Jesus lived to show us how to live" and he is our "Pattern and example". 

This is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died to pay for our sins, and that this gift of salvation can only be received by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

From this true faith, flows true works (fruit). 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We cannot be saved by anything we do (ie we cannot be saved by following Jesus example). However, as new creations in Christ, we are created to do good works (produce fruit of what we already are).

We can only be saved by the blood of Christ, and if we know this truth, we will then follow Jesus' example. 

Many in the fellowship think they have true faith because they believe in a form of ministry. This is a method, not a message of salvation. 

Start with Romans and read through the whole book. Particularly Romans 3. Read it again and again. 

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I’m not a Bible person so what do I know but the hymn comes to mind “he lived to show me how to live. He died to save and ransom me”. Why can’t it be both?

[neighbour]

Jun 1, 2023 10:05:06 GMT -5 verna said:

May 31, 2023 22:24:51 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

This is a long topic. 

The general "gospel" of the Two-by-Twos is that "Jesus lived to show us how to live" and he is our "Pattern and example". 

This is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died to pay for our sins, and that this gift of salvation can only be received by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

From this true faith, flows true works (fruit). 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We cannot be saved by anything we do (ie we cannot be saved by following Jesus example). However, as new creations in Christ, we are created to do good works (produce fruit of what we already are).

We can only be saved by the blood of Christ, and if we know this truth, we will then follow Jesus' example. 

Many in the fellowship think they have true faith because they believe in a form of ministry. This is a method, not a message of salvation. 

Start with Romans and read through the whole book. Particularly Romans 3. Read it again and again. 

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I’m not a Bible person so what do I know but the hymn comes to mind “he lived to show me how to live. He died to save and ransom me”. Why can’t it be both?

The three times Jesus was listed as an example in the Bible was how to be a servant (John 13:15), how to be patient (1 Tim 1:16), and how to endure suffering (1 Pet 2:21).

[snow]

Jun 1, 2023 10:05:06 GMT -5 verna said:

May 31, 2023 22:24:51 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

This is a long topic. 

The general "gospel" of the Two-by-Twos is that "Jesus lived to show us how to live" and he is our "Pattern and example". 

This is not the gospel. The gospel is that Jesus died to pay for our sins, and that this gift of salvation can only be received by grace, through faith (Ephesians 2:8-9).

From this true faith, flows true works (fruit). 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

We cannot be saved by anything we do (ie we cannot be saved by following Jesus example). However, as new creations in Christ, we are created to do good works (produce fruit of what we already are).

We can only be saved by the blood of Christ, and if we know this truth, we will then follow Jesus' example. 

Many in the fellowship think they have true faith because they believe in a form of ministry. This is a method, not a message of salvation. 

Start with Romans and read through the whole book. Particularly Romans 3. Read it again and again. 

But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.



27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.

I’m not a Bible person so what do I know but the hymn comes to mind “he lived to show me how to live. He died to save and ransom me”. Why can’t it be both?

That's an example of people relying on their interpretation of doctrine and not understanding that if there is an all loving all merciful god that doctrine interpretation is a non starter. But it does serve to divide Christians and I'm 100% sure that's not what the Christian god had in mind if he exists.

[verna]

Jun 1, 2023 14:27:09 GMT -5 snow said:

Jun 1, 2023 10:05:06 GMT -5 verna said:

I’m not a Bible person so what do I know but the hymn comes to mind “he lived to show me how to live. He died to save and ransom me”. Why can’t it be both?

That's an example of people relying on their interpretation of doctrine and not understanding that if there is an all loving all merciful god that doctrine interpretation is a non starter. But it does serve to divide Christians and I'm 100% sure that's not what the Christian god had in mind if he exists.

I agree completely with your points. find the arguing over doctrine bizarre but I realize that it is the most important thing to some people. Go figure.

[snow]

Jun 1, 2023 14:37:28 GMT -5 verna said:

Jun 1, 2023 14:27:09 GMT -5 snow said:

That's an example of people relying on their interpretation of doctrine and not understanding that if there is an all loving all merciful god that doctrine interpretation is a non starter. But it does serve to divide Christians and I'm 100% sure that's not what the Christian god had in mind if he exists.

I agree completely with your points. find the arguing over doctrine bizarre but I realize that it is the most important thing to some people. Go figure.

Doctrine is important to the more religious inclined. People that are more spiritual don't worry about it as much. That's what I have observed anyway. Trouble is, doctrine is just another interpretation of old documents.

[fixit]

Jun 1, 2023 12:49:12 GMT -5 neighbour said:

Jun 1, 2023 10:05:06 GMT -5 verna said:

I’m not a Bible person so what do I know but the hymn comes to mind “he lived to show me how to live. He died to save and ransom me”. Why can’t it be both?

The three times Jesus was listed as an example in the Bible was how to be a servant (John 13:15), how to be patient (1 Tim 1:16), and how to endure suffering (1 Pet 2:21).

Well said!

Jesus taught that the servant is not greater than his lord...


John 13:12 After washing their feet, he put on his robe again and sat down and asked, “Do you understand what I was doing?

13 You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and you are right, because that’s what I am.

14 And since I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash each other’s feet.

15 I have given you an example to follow. Do as I have done to you.

16 I tell you the truth, slaves are not greater than their master. Nor is the messenger more important than the one who sends the message.

17 Now that you know these things, God will bless you for doing them.

[fixit]

Jun 1, 2023 15:04:36 GMT -5 snow said:

Jun 1, 2023 14:37:28 GMT -5 verna said:

I agree completely with your points. find the arguing over doctrine bizarre but I realize that it is the most important thing to some people. Go figure.

Doctrine is important to the more religious inclined. People that are more spiritual don't worry about it as much. That's what I have observed anyway. Trouble is, doctrine is just another interpretation of old documents.

It depends how you define the word doctrine. To me it means "teaching".

Teaching is important, even if its only teaching by example.

The more religious inclined seem to focus on teaching their scriptural interpretation as you say.

[snow]

Jun 1, 2023 15:28:38 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jun 1, 2023 15:04:36 GMT -5 snow said:

Doctrine is important to the more religious inclined. People that are more spiritual don't worry about it as much. That's what I have observed anyway. Trouble is, doctrine is just another interpretation of old documents.

It depends how you define the word doctrine. To me it means "teaching".

Teaching is important, even if its only teaching by example.

The more religious inclined seem to focus on teaching their scriptural interpretation as you say.

I see doctrine as something that is based on an interpretation. If you use teaching instead of doctrine I'm not sure what I think of that. I agree that teaching has value when learning about something, but how you interpret that 'teaching' usually leads to doctrine and then indoctrination. That's why there are so many different rules and regulations among the various Christian denominations. The teaching that was interpreted became doctrine. When it comes to God though, no one knows the truth. That's why I think that reading a book, then teaching an interpretation of that book leads to different doctrines.

Spirituality on the other hand is not about a teaching that can get misinterpreted. It's about an individual relationship with whatever higher power you relate to. If there was less religion we wouldn't see all these denominations arguing whose doctrine is the right one. They would accept that each person has their own individual understanding that is based on experience with their higher power and not based on a book that may or may not be valid in the first place. You don't need to believe in a god to have high standards of morals, so you don't really need a book to be spiritually moral.

In a way that's what's happening anyway. Everyone has their own interpretation of the 'teachings' in a book and based on who they are as a person we see which parts of scripture that they gravitate to. Some are really into the punishment and judgement aspects of the book and others are into the love and forgiveness aspects. Not sure if I explained myself well here.

[neighbour]

Jun 1, 2023 15:28:38 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jun 1, 2023 15:04:36 GMT -5 snow said:

Doctrine is important to the more religious inclined. People that are more spiritual don't worry about it as much. That's what I have observed anyway. Trouble is, doctrine is just another interpretation of old documents.

It depends how you define the word doctrine. To me it means "teaching".

Teaching is important, even if its only teaching by example.

The more religious inclined seem to focus on teaching their scriptural interpretation as you say.

The formal definition of doctrine is a set of beliefs held and taught by a group. The etymology is Latin doctrina which means "teaching" or "learning".

[Admin]

Jun 1, 2023 16:01:41 GMT -5 snow said:

Jun 1, 2023 15:28:38 GMT -5 fixit said:

It depends how you define the word doctrine. To me it means "teaching".

Teaching is important, even if its only teaching by example.

The more religious inclined seem to focus on teaching their scriptural interpretation as you say.

I see doctrine as something that is based on an interpretation. If you use teaching instead of doctrine I'm not sure what I think of that. I agree that teaching has value when learning about something, but how you interpret that 'teaching' usually leads to doctrine and then indoctrination.

So the Oxford dictionary definition of 'doctrine' is:
'a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, a political party, etc.'


That's essentially the way I understand and use the concept of 'doctrine'. So the doctrine of the 2x2s is what is taught by the 2x2 workers. The teaching of that doctrine is not based on 'interpretation', but rather on the 'belief system' of the group.

The belief system is certainly based on an interpretation of the bible. Questions around the veracity of that interpretation are many (and varied).


snow mentions 'spirituality' as being an absolute arbiter of truth. For those of us who believe and know God as creator, he is the absolute truth (Jesus "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority").

[snow]

Jun 1, 2023 22:21:01 GMT -5 Admin said:

Jun 1, 2023 16:01:41 GMT -5 snow said:

I see doctrine as something that is based on an interpretation. If you use teaching instead of doctrine I'm not sure what I think of that. I agree that teaching has value when learning about something, but how you interpret that 'teaching' usually leads to doctrine and then indoctrination.

So the Oxford dictionary definition of 'doctrine' is:
'a belief or set of beliefs held and taught by a Church, a political party, etc.'


That's essentially the way I understand and use the concept of 'doctrine'. So the doctrine of the 2x2s is what is taught by the 2x2 workers. The teaching of that doctrine is not based on 'interpretation', but rather on the 'belief system' of the group.

The belief system is certainly based on an interpretation of the bible. Questions around the veracity of that interpretation are many (and varied).


snow mentions 'spirituality' as being an absolute arbiter of truth. For those of us who believe and know God as creator, he is the absolute truth (Jesus "When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority").

I agree with most of this but I wanted to make it clear that I don't think 'spirituality' is the absolute arbiter of truth. It is merely an individual relationship with their higher power not necessarily the truth, but what works for each individual. When we have that we don't argue about what is truth in religion because we recognize that there is no doctrine involved just how everyone relates to the higher power. So for Christians a relationship with their Christian God is what is right for them, but not necessarily absolute truth. That's what I was trying to say.

[timber]

These are good letters; however, I think there is a major "splintering' about to happen or the demise of the church. When there is worker worship, no accountability, protecting the institution at the expense of destroying peoples lives, and no clear mission except its own survival, one wonders if the end is near

[fixit]

Jun 2, 2023 13:09:33 GMT -5 timber said:

These are good letters; however, I think there is a major "splintering' about to happen or the demise of the church. When there is worker worship, no accountability, protecting the institution at the expense of destroying peoples lives, and no clear mission except its own survival, one wonders if the end is near

The following comes to mind...

1 Corinthians 11:17 But in the following instructions, I cannot praise you. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together.

18 First, I hear that there are divisions among you when you meet as a church, and to some extent I believe it.

19 But, of course, there must be divisions among you so that you who have God’s approval will be recognized!

[verna]

Jun 2, 2023 13:09:33 GMT -5 timber said:

These are good letters; however, I think there is a major "splintering' about to happen or the demise of the church. When there is worker worship, no accountability, protecting the institution at the expense of destroying peoples lives, and no clear mission except its own survival, one wonders if the end is near

Can you please clarify what “end” you are referring to?

[snow]

Jun 2, 2023 13:53:40 GMT -5 verna said:

Jun 2, 2023 13:09:33 GMT -5 timber said:

These are good letters; however, I think there is a major "splintering' about to happen or the demise of the church. When there is worker worship, no accountability, protecting the institution at the expense of destroying peoples lives, and no clear mission except its own survival, one wonders if the end is near

Can you please clarify what “end” you are referring to?

That was my question too. The end of the world where Jesus returns or the end of the 2x2 group?

[timber]

Apologies snow and verna. By end, I meant the end of the 2x2 church. Saddens me very much

[fixit]

Jun 2, 2023 15:55:31 GMT -5 timber said:

Apologies snow and verna. By end, I meant the end of the 2x2 church. Saddens me very much

The fruits of serving the Unity god hasn't been good but there are a lot of good people and they won't simply disappear.

[openingact34]

Jun 2, 2023 13:09:33 GMT -5 timber said:

These are good letters; however, I think there is a major "splintering' about to happen or the demise of the church.

I think that is very much an exaggeration. In the US and Canada ONLY there is a very outspoken minority on social media that is making a lot of noise. These are not the pillars of the kingdom. These are the fence-riding hypocrites who dress like Miley Cyrus on Saturday night and like a sister worker on Sunday morning. IF they even show up for meetings.

Most of God's true way is spread throughout the rest of the world and NOTHING is changing there.

The harvest is great and the laborers are few. If the friends in North America rebel and refuse to bow, the workers can easily shake the dust off their feet and go out into new lands where people will be happy to be ruled over to be in the one true way.