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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 5, 2023 19:45:17 GMT -5
Yes, yes they do. Their faith is very tied up in how many fellowship meetings they attend. The same could be said for any church. I disagree. I know a lot of people that attend church irregularly, and they are not judged or criticized by their fellow worshippers. They do not get surprise judgmental visits from their pastor questioning why they have not been to church, hinting that this could affect their salvation. If they have an event of any type that they would like to attend, they are free to attend without feeling guilty knowing that those at church are not going to be whispering and gossiping about their lack of faith. They all know that in their hearts, they are at peace. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 19:56:12 GMT -5
You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised addition of that book you wrote...
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? Yep, like I thought been gone too long... |
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 5, 2023 20:01:08 GMT -5
You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised addition of that book you wrote...
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? Reminds me of Acts 20 when Paul preached on and on past midnight until the young man fell asleep and fell to his death. Very cultlike. Too bad the friends couldn't do the same Resurrection trick. |
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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 5, 2023 20:14:54 GMT -5
They confess their faith frequently in fellowship meetings. Yes, yes they do. Their faith is very tied up in how many fellowship meetings they attend. When I was young, we attended Sunday morning meeting and Wednesday night Bible study. During Gospel Meeting season, we attended every one in about a 70 mile radius. That would usually be Sunday evening and often two other week nights, plus the Wednesday night study. That's two meetings on Sunday and about three week nights of meetings; usually up to five meetings a week. The more meetings you attended and the farther you drove to get there was like extra punch holes on your loyalty card for salvation. Nowadays, it seems that three meetings a week (including Sunday morning) is the max. Some places cancel the study meetings if there is a gospel meeting during the week, so two on Sunday and one week night. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2023 20:19:04 GMT -5
Meeting attendance was drilled into members with the rigour of military training. Stories about the lengths to which Two-by-Twos would go to be faithful in their meeting attendance were legendary. I recall whole sermons containing nothing more than example after example of how much faithful effort some members expended in getting to the meetings. These stories were told in a similar vein to the grand old tradition of how hard it was for grandfather to get to school in his day (knee deep in snow with no shoes, etc.). I know of such instances within my own extended family. A relative recounts a day in her childhood when the family was ready for the meeting, but the car would not start. A repairman was called, and after much waiting and tinkering, the vehicle was finally running – almost an hour later. Nevertheless, they still set off for the meeting, arriving for the last five minutes of the service. Such determination at least showed others that they had not meant to miss the meeting, and in fact would go to any lengths to attend, even if only for the last few minutes.
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? Yep, like I thought been gone too long... So the experiences of myself and others I know are irrelevant because they didn't happen this year? The brother of the boy who died never got over that incident, by the way. So Cherie's book is irrelevant because it all happened so long ago? Actually, the content of my book pales in comparison to the revelations that have happened this year. I do hope Cherie puts out a revised version of her book to include all the latest developments. I have no doubt things are changing/ have changed. Let's face it, the workers have been steadily losing their power since information became more available on the internet in the mid-90s, and especially in very recent days. But it doesn't change history. It's all part of the ongoing, evolving story. A big part of the evolution is due to the ongoing efforts of ex-members who continue to uncover the past events and deceit. If my book has contributed to change in any small way, hallelujah! But I've learnt that no matter what workers are found to be guilty of, no matter what wrongdoings are uncovered, your faith is irrevocably in the system. There is nothing they could do that would dissuade you or cause you to stop defending them. Nothing. I think that's called fanaticism. Or brainwashed. Or conditioned. Probably all three. |
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Post by matisse on Jun 5, 2023 20:22:03 GMT -5
I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised addition of that book you wrote... *edition |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2023 20:27:15 GMT -5
You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised addition of that book you wrote... *edition Following this year's events, "addition" may be more appropriate. Maybe it was a freudian slip. |
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Post by neighbour on Jun 5, 2023 20:37:32 GMT -5
Nowadays, it seems that three meetings a week (including Sunday morning) is the max. Some places cancel the study meetings if there is a gospel meeting during the week, so two on Sunday and one week night. Same here. Waaay back in the day I hear they used to have a gospel meeting every night of the week... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 20:46:49 GMT -5
Yep, like I thought been gone too long... So the experiences of myself and others I know are irrelevant because they didn't happen this year? The brother of the boy who died never got over that incident, by the way. So Cherie's book is irrelevant because it all happened so long ago? Actually, the content of my book pales in comparison to the revelations that have happened this year. I do hope Cherie puts out a revised version of her book to include all the latest developments. I have no doubt things are changing/ have changed. Let's face it, the workers have been steadily losing their power since information became more available on the internet in the mid-90s, and especially in very recent days. But it doesn't change history. It's all part of the ongoing, evolving story. A big part of the evolution is the ongoing efforts of ex-members who continue to uncover the past events and deceipts. If my book has contributed to change in any small way, hallelujah! But I've learnt that no matter what workers are found to be guilty of, no matter what wrongdoings are uncovered, your faith is irrevocably in the system. There is nothing they could do that would dissuade you or cause you to stop defending them. Nothing. I think that's called fanaticism. Or brainwashed. Or conditioned. Probably all three. *deceipts is an obsolete word for deceits You are fixated on a very short amount of time in a very specific part of the world considering the 120 odd years the Truth has been around and it's all over the globe. You'll stop at nothing to destroy what you abandoned, and you'll make sure no one else can have it either, right or wrong. You should have said good riddance and move on. Perfect example of why it's called being bitter, vengeful, vindictive by those that remain. Probably all three.  |
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 5, 2023 20:54:55 GMT -5
Oh, it happens alright. We are fortunate with our own meeting, but I am very aware of others who are not so fortunate. Miss a couple, and the snide remarks from the elder's wife cut like a knife. One elder is known for his rigour, and if someone has missed a few meeting due to being on holiday (vacation for the Americans!) his spiel may talk about God never taking a holiday! (What?) Some elders have been called the church police.
One lady who was quite sick near the end of her life, was spoken of as "having never missed a meeting".
Just because things might have happened in other place, or in another time, does not reduce their relevance, or the hurt that they caused.
I know of one person who was dealing with a tragic but very private family circumstance, and the snide remarks by the elder and his wife, gave them cause to no longer attend.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2023 21:10:16 GMT -5
So the experiences of myself and others I know are irrelevant because they didn't happen this year? The brother of the boy who died never got over that incident, by the way. So Cherie's book is irrelevant because it all happened so long ago? Actually, the content of my book pales in comparison to the revelations that have happened this year. I do hope Cherie puts out a revised version of her book to include all the latest developments. I have no doubt things are changing/ have changed. Let's face it, the workers have been steadily losing their power since information became more available on the internet in the mid-90s, and especially in very recent days. But it doesn't change history. It's all part of the ongoing, evolving story. A big part of the evolution is the ongoing efforts of ex-members who continue to uncover the past events and deceipts. If my book has contributed to change in any small way, hallelujah! But I've learnt that no matter what workers are found to be guilty of, no matter what wrongdoings are uncovered, your faith is irrevocably in the system. There is nothing they could do that would dissuade you or cause you to stop defending them. Nothing. I think that's called fanaticism. Or brainwashed. Or conditioned. Probably all three. *deceipts is an obsolete word for deceits You are fixated on a very short amount of time in a very specific part of the world considering the 120 odd years the Truth has been around and it's all over the globe. You'll stop at nothing to destroy what you abandoned, and you'll make sure no one else can have it either, right or wrong. You should have said good riddance and move on. Perfect example of why it's called being bitter, vengeful, vindictive by those that remain. Probably all three. Yeah, I was having some trouble with my spelling today. Kept getting deceit mixed up with deception. Think you'll find a plethora of problems during the entire 120 years of operation. Cherie's book was the bigger focus. Ah yes, the old "bitter ex" label. The conditioning of members to use that phrase definitely started decades ago, and isn't confined to any short time in any specific part of the world. Trust me, it's a learned conditioning on your part. Plus all the other words workers have and continued to use against any who have left. Care factor - zero and still dropping. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 5, 2023 21:49:45 GMT -5
Oh, it happens alright. We are fortunate with our own meeting, but I am very aware of others who are not so fortunate. Miss a couple, and the snide remarks from the elder's wife cut like a knife. One elder is known for his rigour, and if someone has missed a few meeting due to being on holiday (vacation for the Americans!) his spiel may talk about God never taking a holiday! (What?) Some elders have been called the church police. One lady who was quite sick near the end of her life, was spoken of as "having never missed a meeting". Just because things might have happened in other place, or in another time, does not reduce their relevance, or the hurt that they caused. I know of one person who was dealing with a tragic but very private family circumstance, and the snide remarks by the elder and his wife, gave them cause to no longer attend. Sounds like a job for InternationalStudies......relieve the elder couple of their duties. |
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Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2023 23:20:18 GMT -5
You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised addition of that book you wrote...
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? A horrific story... Reminded me of the time my Dad was too sick to go to Sunday morning mtg. About midway through the meeting, the phone rang and it was my Dad. One of the men immediately drove my Mom home and found my Dad sitting on the side of the road in severe pain (appendicitis). He nearly died when his appendix burst as the Doctor was removing it in surgery. I got a little upset with my Mom for leaving him rolling around in bed in mortal pain, we should have taken him to the hospital that morning instead of going to mtg.
The last convention I attended was so full that there were no seats, had to sit in the dining tent. I noticed the license plates on cars were from all over the country, so no wonder there was no room for locals. Talked to one family from Alaska, who were bragging that the Iowa convention was the 6th one they had attended that year. It was like a badge of honor to him, but my thoughts were, "Yeah you selfish prick, that's why I'm sitting at a picnic table in the dining tent with no backrest".
It may have changed, but when I left, regular attendance was a factor very much emphasized. Every time I saw one of the freinds, workers, or family, they repeatedly stressed "You need to get back to mtgs".. "Get to mtg" was even written on most of the birthday cards I got from them. I tried to ease their concern by assuring them that I was attending another church... But that didn't help at all  .. The general response was, "Oh No Dan, we are praying for you and hope you'll find your way back to the Truth". Apparently I was lost and didn't even know it! |
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Post by jane on Jun 5, 2023 23:21:53 GMT -5
The same could be said for any church. I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. I have to agree with Elizabeth here. There is a high expectation to attend meetings. Sunday, gospel meetings, wednesday night, potlucks etc. If you don't attend, you feel you need to offer an "acceptable" excuse. ...and if you miss too many, they will be sure to give you call and check in. Even after having a baby, you are expected to attend all these meetings regardless of the babies schedule or your complete exhaustion. When you return from a holiday or trip, the first thing they ask you is if you contacted the workers and what meeting you went to. Its exhausting. And even now, its hard to say, "I need to take a break from all the meetings" because you KNOW everyone will look down on you. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 5, 2023 23:25:52 GMT -5
Oh, it happens alright. We are fortunate with our own meeting, but I am very aware of others who are not so fortunate. Miss a couple, and the snide remarks from the elder's wife cut like a knife. One elder is known for his rigour, and if someone has missed a few meeting due to being on holiday (vacation for the Americans!) his spiel may talk about God never taking a holiday! (What?) Some elders have been called the church police. One lady who was quite sick near the end of her life, was spoken of as "having never missed a meeting". Just because things might have happened in other place, or in another time, does not reduce their relevance, or the hurt that they caused. I know of one person who was dealing with a tragic but very private family circumstance, and the snide remarks by the elder and his wife, gave them cause to no longer attend. Sounds like a job for InternationalStudies......relieve the elder couple of their duties. Wealthy contributors with younger relatives in the work.....hmmm, can't see that happening! |
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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 6, 2023 0:12:01 GMT -5
Nowadays, it seems that three meetings a week (including Sunday morning) is the max. Some places cancel the study meetings if there is a gospel meeting during the week, so two on Sunday and one week night. Same here. Waaay back in the day I hear they used to have a gospel meeting every night of the week... I've heard that too. It's no wonder that they were called Go Preachers... always on the go! Nowadays the younger workers spend more time playing football, soccer and other sports with the friends than actually preaching. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 6, 2023 0:25:27 GMT -5
Meeting attendance was drilled into members with the rigour of military training. Stories about the lengths to which Two-by-Twos would go to be faithful in their meeting attendance were legendary. I recall whole sermons containing nothing more than example after example of how much faithful effort some members expended in getting to the meetings. These stories were told in a similar vein to the grand old tradition of how hard it was for grandfather to get to school in his day (knee deep in snow with no shoes, etc.). I know of such instances within my own extended family. A relative recounts a day in her childhood when the family was ready for the meeting, but the car would not start. A repairman was called, and after much waiting and tinkering, the vehicle was finally running – almost an hour later. Nevertheless, they still set off for the meeting, arriving for the last five minutes of the service. Such determination at least showed others that they had not meant to miss the meeting, and in fact would go to any lengths to attend, even if only for the last few minutes.
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? A horrific story... Reminded me of the time my Dad was too sick to go to Sunday morning mtg. About midway through the meeting, the phone rang and it was my Dad. One of the men immediately drove my Mom home and found my Dad sitting on the side of the road in severe pain (appendicitis). He nearly died when his appendix burst as the Doctor was removing it in surgery. I got a little upset with my Mom for leaving him rolling around in bed in mortal pain, we should have taken him to the hospital that morning instead of going to mtg.
The last convention I attended was so full that there were no seats, had to sit in the dining tent. I noticed the license plates on cars were from all over the country, so no wonder there was no room for locals. Talked to one family from Alaska, who were bragging that the Iowa convention was the 6th one they had attended that year. It was like a badge of honor to him, but my thoughts were, "Yeah you selfish prick, that's why I'm sitting at a picnic table in the dining tent with no backrest".
It may have changed, but when I left, regular attendance was a factor very much emphasized. Every time I saw one of the freinds, workers, or family, they repeatedly stressed "You need to get back to mtgs".. "Get to mtg" was even written on most of the birthday cards I got from them. I tried to ease their concern by assuring them that I was attending another church... But that didn't help at all .. The general response was, "Oh No Dan, we are praying for you and hope you'll find your way back to the Truth". Apparently I was lost and didn't even know it! So sorry about your Dad going through that, Dan. Glad he was able to be saved - sounds like it was a very close call.  |
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Post by ForeverFree on Jun 6, 2023 0:26:50 GMT -5
Meeting attendance was drilled into members with the rigour of military training. Stories about the lengths to which Two-by-Twos would go to be faithful in their meeting attendance were legendary. I recall whole sermons containing nothing more than example after example of how much faithful effort some members expended in getting to the meetings. These stories were told in a similar vein to the grand old tradition of how hard it was for grandfather to get to school in his day (knee deep in snow with no shoes, etc.). I know of such instances within my own extended family. A relative recounts a day in her childhood when the family was ready for the meeting, but the car would not start. A repairman was called, and after much waiting and tinkering, the vehicle was finally running – almost an hour later. Nevertheless, they still set off for the meeting, arriving for the last five minutes of the service. Such determination at least showed others that they had not meant to miss the meeting, and in fact would go to any lengths to attend, even if only for the last few minutes.
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? A horrific story... Reminded me of the time my Dad was too sick to go to Sunday morning mtg. About midway through the meeting, the phone rang and it was my Dad. One of the men immediately drove my Mom home and found my Dad sitting on the side of the road in severe pain (appendicitis). He nearly died when his appendix burst as the Doctor was removing it in surgery. I got a little upset with my Mom for leaving him rolling around in bed in mortal pain, we should have taken him to the hospital that morning instead of going to mtg.
The last convention I attended was so full that there were no seats, had to sit in the dining tent. I noticed the license plates on cars were from all over the country, so no wonder there was no room for locals. Talked to one family from Alaska, who were bragging that the Iowa convention was the 6th one they had attended that year. It was like a badge of honor to him, but my thoughts were, "Yeah you selfish prick, that's why I'm sitting at a picnic table in the dining tent with no backrest". It may have changed, but when I left, regular attendance was a factor very much emphasized. Every time I saw one of the freinds, workers, or family, they repeatedly stressed "You need to get back to mtgs".. "Get to mtg" was even written on most of the birthday cards I got from them. I tried to ease their concern by assuring them that I was attending another church... But that didn't help at all .. The general response was, "Oh No Dan, we are praying for you and hope you'll find your way back to the Truth". Apparently I was lost and didn't even know it! "I tried to ease their concern by assuring them that I was attending another church... But that didn't help at all .." Ha ha! That's like telling the barista at Dunkin' Donuts where you are no longer a regular, "oh, don't worry. I still go out for coffee, I just go to Krispy Creme". They see any other church as a threat or as the competition. |
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Post by jennyfromtheblock on Jun 7, 2023 2:00:41 GMT -5
I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. I have to agree with Elizabeth here. There is a high expectation to attend meetings. Sunday, gospel meetings, wednesday night, potlucks etc. If you don't attend, you feel you need to offer an "acceptable" excuse. ...and if you miss too many, they will be sure to give you call and check in. Even after having a baby, you are expected to attend all these meetings regardless of the babies schedule or your complete exhaustion. When you return from a holiday or trip, the first thing they ask you is if you contacted the workers and what meeting you went to. Its exhausting. And even now, its hard to say, "I need to take a break from all the meetings" because you KNOW everyone will look down on you. But also, who cares if they look down on you cause you need a break or time off. Who cares what they think about anything?! I get that it might make attending your meeting unbearable if you felt like you were being judged the whole time. That would certainly suck. If you’re feeling that way anyways then maybe you need a new group of people. Speaking of which, I heard the “unsanctioned” meetings were pretty good. Besides the judgers, I also think a big problem with 2x2s is caring too much about what everyone else thinks. Maybe the friend’s need to set better boundaries for themselves in respect to the rest of the church. 🤷🏻♀️. |
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Post by snow on Jun 9, 2023 15:51:07 GMT -5
I have to agree with Elizabeth here. There is a high expectation to attend meetings. Sunday, gospel meetings, wednesday night, potlucks etc. If you don't attend, you feel you need to offer an "acceptable" excuse. ...and if you miss too many, they will be sure to give you call and check in. Even after having a baby, you are expected to attend all these meetings regardless of the babies schedule or your complete exhaustion. When you return from a holiday or trip, the first thing they ask you is if you contacted the workers and what meeting you went to. Its exhausting. And even now, its hard to say, "I need to take a break from all the meetings" because you KNOW everyone will look down on you. But also, who cares if they look down on you cause you need a break or time off. Who cares what they think about anything?! I get that it might make attending your meeting unbearable if you felt like you were being judged the whole time. That would certainly suck. If you’re feeling that way anyways then maybe you need a new group of people. Speaking of which, I heard the “unsanctioned” meetings were pretty good. Besides the judgers, I also think a big problem with 2x2s is caring too much about what everyone else thinks. Maybe the friend’s need to set better boundaries for themselves in respect to the rest of the church. 🤷🏻♀️. You nailed it! I heard 'what would they think of you' so many times growing up. It was all such a big group of judging, especially when you were a minor living at home still and you no longer professed. My father was always concerned about appearances. Take that away from those in the group or at least to a healthier level and you wouldn't have so many people scared to dress differently, wear their hair like they like it, and if they can't attend meeting no one is going to point them out for it. |
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Post by Mary on Feb 3, 2024 19:36:13 GMT -5
Sorry. I still don't see how you can say it is the general gospel of the workers. I'm sorry for your experience in the 90s. I guess I am confused what the workers thought was false about your belief? The only false thing I have seen you say is what you think the workers generally believe. I have never heard anyone say or even imply the following. "The general doctrine of the workers is that we need to follow Jesus' example and pattern and "be more worthy". Jesus' sacrifice then fills up whatever we are lacking. But there is never any true assurance - we always fall short, are not worthy, need to try harder, be more worthy. This is a gospel of works. The ministry, with the workers' "sacrifice" of themselves is another form of works they insist is mandatory." Jesus' sacrifice fills up what we are lacking? Did you actually hear workers say that? I have never heard that. Our works are not the works of the law. Our works are obedience. We obey God, that proves our faith. Rehab hid the spies, and Abraham offered his son. They obeyed God. This is not about the works of the law that you are quoting. It is about obedience. Matthew 10:37-39 KJV - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. We are not trying to be worthy in our own works, we are trying to be worthy of HIM. If we don't take up our cross and follow after Him, we are not worthy of HIM. all He did for us will not avail us if we are not willing to obey Him. We lose our life FOR HIS SAKE, not to prove we don't need Him, and we know that we have no hope without His sacrifice, and the only hope we have is to follow His words and obey Him. I don't live the way I do to try to make other people think I am righteous. No it is to obey Him because I want to be with Him forever. He is all in all to me. We are not obeying the law. There is no reason to continue this conversation if we are just going to go round and round. You like to say what the workers generally speak about. But I wish you could come and listen in. I don't hear that. So that is why it feels like you are judging us by what you experienced years ago. Maybe those workers were wrong. I am very sorry about that, if that is the case, or maybe they misunderstood, or maybe you did. I dont know. I wasn't there to hear what they actually said, the same as you aren't in meetings now to hear what is actually being said. The false beliefs I was speaking about is your thinking you know everything about us. I have not read all of your posts enough to know exactly what you believe. I only have read enough to see you putting us in a box and labeling us. So be it. I want to apologize to you and anyone reading this thread because I am not an angry person, but I let anger guide the first posts on this forum and probably my last. Sorry. Hi Dub, I really appreciate your response and unreservedly accept your apology. I now know many, many Christians who have come out of the fellowship. Their experience is very similar to mine. There seem to be a lot of conditions attached to being "in the right way" as many say of the fellowship of friends and workers. Surely you cannot be completely unaware of the exclusivity of your group, and that - in general - you are conditioned against other churches and other Christians as having "false beliefs". But it isn't just my experience of which I speak. I now have a lifetime's worth of knowledge from investigating, researching, reading the theology and beliefs of the Two-by-Twos. I have been on numerous forums of exmembers and heard numerous accounts of their experiences and what they were taught. When I talk about "salvation by works", I am talking about adding conditions to salvation - manmade rules which we have to obey in order to be saved. All Christians who have left the meetings to attend another church will attest to this; the same will be acknowledged by some (many?) who remain in your group. No, I am not imagining it. No, I am not making it up. We have often said in our meetings that there are two things fundamental to the faith of Jesus: the homelessness of the preacher and the church in the home and only in the home. Whenever we depart from these two fundamentals we have departed from the faith, we have become apostate. We must contend to the very end of the chapter for the homelessness of the preacher and the church in the home and only in the home.
- [Worker] Jack Carroll, Hayden Lake sermon 1932 My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.
- Leo Stancliffe, worker, 1981 How many of us are really clear on the conditions that must be fulfilled by those who are to have a part in this ministry? God's people demand greater sacrifices from their preachers than any other people in the world. They insist that the preachers must sacrifice all, and they say they believe in no other kind of preachers but those who sacrifice all for the Gospel's sake.
- Jack Carroll, early worker, www.tellingthetruth.info We are God’s chosen people. Our main objectives are to serve the workers, attend gospel meetings and conventions and honour The Truth.
- Los Angeles Special Meeting, March 10, 1985, www.workersect.orgDoctrine
Claim none, and refuse to publish any, other than to state that they believe and follow "the teachings of the New Testament." Doctrinal issues are not emphasized, preferring to stress the importance of their celibate, unsalaried, homeless, itinerant ministry and "meetings in the home." This appears as well to be the sum of the "gospel message" which they proclaim.
Though their doctrine is often presented to outsiders and new members in deceptive, vague and orthodox-sounding terminology, the following represent a brief sampling of the areas of doctrine in which this group differs from most orthodox Christian beliefs:
- They believe that salvation can only be acquired through hearing and "professing" through one of their "Workers".
- They do not believe that Jesus and the Father are one and the same God. Jesus is held to have been a god-like human on whom the "Christ Spirit" settled, and who gave the world a pattern of "perfect ministry." Will sometimes refer to Jesus as "divine," "god the son," or "a god" -- though they do not mean by these that Jesus is viewed by them as being in any sense God, in the manner that the Father is called "God."
- The "Word made flesh" of John 1:1, 14 is held to be the "Workers" themselves.
- Have taught, and most continue to assert, that the group is a direct, historical continuation of the "New Testament Church," having no earthly founder.
- Do not ascribe Godhood to the Holy Spirit, believing "the Spirit" to be an attitude, emotional feeling, or force originating from God.
- They do not believe that the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the gracious imputation of Christ's righteousness is sufficient to produce salvation, instead holding that one must continue faithfully in their belief system through self-effort, self-denial, and unquestioning submission and obedience to their "shepherds" until death.
- Hold that Jesus died to save those who follow their ministers, and that His "pattern life" and "pattern ministry" were the primary goals of His earthly sojourn.
[workersect.org] Here is a different understanding of the gospel from a "worldly" Christian: But when ‘grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ,’ a long-awaited revolution of the heart began to set religious captives free. Fear-full bondage motivated by guilt was replaced with a fresh motivation to follow Him in truth simply out of deep devotion and delight. Rather than focusing on the accomplishments of the flesh, He spoke of the heart. Instead of demanding that the sinner fulfil a long list of requirements, he emphasized faith, if only the size of a mustard seed. The change spelled freedom, as the Lord himself taught, ‘…you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free’ (John 8:32). Rigid, barren religion was, at last, replaced by a grace-orientated, relationship-liberating grace. His followers loved it. His enemies hated it… and Him. Without a doubt, the earliest grace killers were the Pharisees.
- (The Grace Awakening), Charles R Swindoll In closing, this quote of yours does resonate with me: "I don't live the way I do to try to make other people think I am righteous. No it is to obey Him because I want to be with Him forever. He is all in all to me."Amen. Every true believer would express this thought. We obey God because we love him, and want to keep his commandments. Only being alive in the Spirit can bring about this sort of conviction. Only those who have the free gift of salvation through grace have this kind of true love for their saviour. Which brings us back full circle to what I originally said: Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. I'm bringing this back up. I notice especially what Leo Stancliff said in 1981. My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit. - Leo Stancliffe, worker, 1981 |
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Post by Lee on Feb 3, 2024 23:51:04 GMT -5
Interesting.
The Tao, aka ‘the way’ is a cross cultural value set of common people. Various modern developments have threatened these values. One reason people bond in the 2x2 is it’s ability to bring people back in touch with the Tao.
Do the workers-collectively, actually stand for the values of the Tao? Arguably not.
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Post by Lee on Feb 3, 2024 23:52:15 GMT -5
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Post by ForeverFree on Feb 4, 2024 0:24:19 GMT -5
You nailed it! I heard 'what would they think of you' so many times growing up. It was all such a big group of judging, especially when you were a minor living at home still and you no longer professed. My father was always concerned about appearances. Take that away from those in the group or at least to a healthier level and you wouldn't have so many people scared to dress differently, wear their hair like they like it, and if they can't attend meeting no one is going to point them out for it. Before leaving "the truth", another "friend" and I had hinted to each other about leaving. A comment made was, "we should stop going just for a little while and see what people will say!" We then answered that question with all the comments we had heard growing up in reference to people leaving. Not long after that, I took the plunge and stopped attending meetings. Within about six months, my friend did the same. "Just for a little while" has turned into 30 years. Well worth it!! |
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Post by Lee on Feb 4, 2024 0:57:26 GMT -5
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nathan2
Royal Member
Nathan again
50%
Posts: 5,258
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 4, 2024 2:27:09 GMT -5
I read her writings and she didn’t do a good job of explaining Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic itinerant ministry and fellowship. Hi, Lee my old buddy! Good to see you on here. |
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Post by mountain on Feb 4, 2024 10:25:49 GMT -5
I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. I have to agree with Elizabeth here. There is a high expectation to attend meetings. Sunday, gospel meetings, wednesday night, potlucks etc. If you don't attend, you feel you need to offer an "acceptable" excuse. ...and if you miss too many, they will be sure to give you call and check in. Even after having a baby, you are expected to attend all these meetings regardless of the babies schedule or your complete exhaustion. When you return from a holiday or trip, the first thing they ask you is if you contacted the workers and what meeting you went to. Its exhausting. And even now, its hard to say, "I need to take a break from all the meetings" because you KNOW everyone will look down on you. Missing a meeting was equated to missing a meal. Do it too often and you weaken and starve to death (spiritually). This meant every meeting was all important and attendance was essential for your spiritual health. Years later I found out the rest of the world had less meals than we did in the UK. On a Sunday we had PM meetings as well as AM meetings, along with midweek meeting. The rest of the world only had Sunday AM and midweek meeting to contend with. I guess we in the UK were fat spiritually? |
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Post by Dan on Feb 4, 2024 11:51:26 GMT -5
Excellent, this Heidi DenHerder crystalized my thoughts. Thanks for posting the link Lee .gif) |
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.. The general response was, "Oh No Dan, we are praying for you and hope you'll find your way back to the Truth". Apparently I was lost and didn't even know it! 
