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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 2, 2023 22:05:00 GMT -5
What do you mean rather than Jesus as our example? I just was reading in 1 John 2 tonight and states Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Christ did. So why wouldn't we focus on Jesus being our example? She lost this debate a while ago, doesn't get it at all... Every time I think you've shown a sliver of understanding, Wally, you go backwards. But I guess it is consistent with the salvation by works doctrine of most workers. I am curious - what are these works you are doing that make you worthy of salvation? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 2, 2023 23:59:34 GMT -5
These are good letters; however, I think there is a major "splintering' about to happen or the demise of the church. I think that is very much an exaggeration. In the US and Canada ONLY there is a very outspoken minority on social media that is making a lot of noise. These are not the pillars of the kingdom. These are the fence-riding hypocrites who dress like Miley Cyrus on Saturday night and like a sister worker on Sunday morning. IF they even show up for meetings. Most of God's true way is spread throughout the rest of the world and NOTHING is changing there. The harvest is great and the laborers are few. If the friends in North America rebel and refuse to bow, the workers can easily shake the dust off their feet and go out into new lands where people will be happy to be ruled over to be in the one true way.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 2:25:53 GMT -5
She lost this debate a while ago, doesn't get it at all... Every time I think you've shown a sliver of understanding, Wally, you go backwards. But I guess it is consistent with the salvation by works doctrine of most workers. I am curious - what are these works you are doing that make you worthy of salvation? The topic I answered was about Christ as our example you totally lost it on that one... Belief, repentance, obedience, Bearing fruit/proof of progress all under Christs blood. You rarely fail to disappoint others either. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 3, 2023 7:52:23 GMT -5
Every time I think you've shown a sliver of understanding, Wally, you go backwards. But I guess it is consistent with the salvation by works doctrine of most workers. I am curious - what are these works you are doing that make you worthy of salvation? The topic I answered was about Christ as our example you totally lost it on that one... Belief, repentance, obedience, Bearing fruit/proof of progress all under Christs blood. You rarely fail to disappoint others either. "Totally lost it" - totally disagree. Dan and I came to a fairly similar agreement. As did a number of the other professing people here on TMB. You were the only one still beating your own drum. Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with? Or do you always have to disagree with me purely on principle of being Wally? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 9:23:06 GMT -5
Elizabeth Coleman [/quote]Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with?
[/quote]
Who exactly says this? Have you been to a meeting recently? How do you know what is being spoken at meeting? You accuse people of believing that their salvation is dependant on works, but who do you know that goes to meeting besides the few people who post on here? You stand in judgment of people you know nothing about. You pride yourself in having separated your family from meetings, so where do you get your information? You are coming from a place of judgement, which you accuse the workers of. You know nothing about us, except for the stunted understanding you had from many years ago. So now you stand in your ivory palace and throw stones. Unless you are willing to come down off of your high horse, you will never see that we don't believe that the law saves us and that our one true love is Jesus, the One who gave Himself for us and with strong crying and tears kept true to God and became the atoning sacrifice. He is worthy of praise and honor and of every ounce of my love and devotion. And I tremble to think that I could do anything to separate myself from Him. If a person's deeds are evil, they won't come to the light. We are to bring forth there for fruits worthy of repentance.
The Gospel of Grace is very much alive and well in the meetings. Do I say it every time I open my mouth? No. But it is something I speak about often. We can never be enough, do enough or give enough to be saved. But do I believe Jesus came to be our example? Yes! He said it Himself.
1. John 13:15 KJV - 5 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
2. Matthew 16:24 KJV - 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
3. Romans 5:10 KJV - 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
4. 1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
And many more, but I am running out of time.
Why would he have come and been born a baby and lived into adulthood if His life doesn't matter? He could have just appeared and died on the cross. He lived a life proving it is possible to please God while in this body and showing us how.
Do we think we could live that we don't need the blood of Christ? No! We all like sheep have gone astray. It is Christ who will present His bride to Himself perfected. We are not a perfect church. We are not a perfect people, but we love Jesus. We want to be His bride, so we give our lives to Him, going outside the camp to be identified with Him and rejected by people like you who misunderstand us completely.
Or maybe you are judging all of us by examples of people who are not of us, even though they are among us. That is identifying all of the wheat as tares because there are tares among the wheat. Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat. He is not confused, the angels aren't confused, but He knew His people would be confused, so He said, let them grow there along the wheat, lest you root out the wheat also.
I hate the things that some people are doing and calling themselves a disciple. They are disciples of the devil. It is disgusting, and I hate it! I am raging inside because they have hurt people, especially children! I ABHOR IT!!!! And I have an ache inside me because of the victims. I beg God to give them comfort because they have been WRONGED! I can't stand it, but I go on. Why? Because there are still sheep to look after, there are God's true children that love one another with a pure love and who love God and Jesus. It is for them, the sweet lambs and sheep. I can't disappoint them. And my Lord and Savior. I have made promises to Him. I love Him so much. It tears me up to think of adding more sorrow to Him. I want to just curl up in His love and forget everyone else, but His love is causing me to have more love for these little lambs and sheep. I want to put my arms over them and protect them.
I am sorry for the tone of this but I have read a lot of your posts and your disdain and condescension makes me feel sick. There are people you know nothing of that are hurting, but you throw stones at them. You don't realize how many of us are reading these forums now. I don't sit in judgement of you and your false beliefs, but that is what I see you do again and again and again. We are growing into the perfect man, but we are not there yet.
Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
So the church is being perfected, it is not already perfect. Our understanding is not prefect, our faith is not perfect, our submission is not perfect. But you seem to think we should already be perfect. It is the work of Jesus to perfect the church.
But I guess you are already perfect, so go ahead and sit in your high tower and cast stones on people you don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 13:26:32 GMT -5
There is a sister that just left the work in Texas. On this forum it was alleged that she is considered a troublemaker for preaching grace. Then two days later another worker told me verbatim "she is a troublemaker. She was preaching another gospel. She was preaching grace." Then another day or two later I was discussing the issue of grace and someone else professing said "oh no, the gospel of grace is false doctrine, once saved always saved is wrong". Many friends and workers conflate the two, so grace is verboten in their eyes. Capisce? Just because people use terminology differently doesn't mean they do or don't mean the same thing. Why does everyone always assume that people have the same IQ, cognitive ability with the scriptures? There can be endless discussions about grace, trinity, Salvation, all kinds of things because people are not understanding what the other person is saying, but IQ does not mean someone cannot be right with God, even if they use the terminology differently. Grace is not the same as once saved always saved, in my mind, but maybe that worker heard someone use those two terms in the same way, and so they think everyone does. grace 1 of 2 noun ˈgrās Synonyms of grace 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance Capisce? I know the sister worker you mention VERY WELL! If you don't know her, don't assume you know why she is not in the work. She has [redacted because I am not sure if it is appropriate to expose her problems],not some special spiritual understanding of grace. It is not because she was preaching in a way that is more refined in her understanding of grace. Please, you have no idea. I don't know what those sister workers meant who said that about grace, but they didn't mean she was preaching about grace as being the unmerited favor and divine help of God. I promise you that. Maybe she was preaching about once saved always saved who knows. But don't tell me about her, I already know her. Do you? |
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Post by snow on Jun 3, 2023 14:29:13 GMT -5
Apologies snow and verna. By end, I meant the end of the 2x2 church. Saddens me very much I don't think this is the end of the group, but it may very well be the end of the way things are done at the higher levels, which is something that needs to change. Meetings in the home should survive, just not with all the rules that make no sense and a hierarchy that doesn't listen to the pleas of the friends that have been abused by them. |
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Post by internationalstudies on Jun 3, 2023 15:08:13 GMT -5
Elizabeth Coleman said: Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with?Thank you Dub, you see Elizabeth for what she is. Others also do, including those who don't profess/aren't part of our church, one such poster: "Shining again Elizabeth, brightly and gloriously. "
"1. False accusation.2. False accusation.3. True, then false accusation. 4. Random diversion. 5. Random diversion. It's not looking good, maybe use less of your emotions and show a little more grace."But she'll keep attempting to defend herself and deflecting from uncomfortable truth about herself.
If you have all day to go back and forth with her, then go for it! See if her method is any different from what the perceptive poster above observed.
Now watch what and see how she or one of her supporters/cheerleaders respond to this!  |
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Post by margaret on Jun 3, 2023 15:14:44 GMT -5
“The church is being perfected but it is not perfect.”
That’s not how it’s supposed to be before the return of Jesus. The church is supposed to become less and less perfect and that’s exactly what’s happening. It’s absolutely fascinating to watch and faith confirming.
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Post by snow on Jun 3, 2023 15:15:20 GMT -5
Elizabeth Coleman Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with? Who exactly says this? Have you been to a meeting recently? How do you know what is being spoken at meeting? You accuse people of believing that their salvation is dependant on works, but who do you know that goes to meeting besides the few people who post on here? You stand in judgment of people you know nothing about. You pride yourself in having separated your family from meetings, so where do you get your information? You are coming from a place of judgement, which you accuse the workers of. You know nothing about us, except for the stunted understanding you had from many years ago. So now you stand in your ivory palace and throw stones. Unless you are willing to come down off of your high horse, you will never see that we don't believe that the law saves us and that our one true love is Jesus, the One who gave Himself for us and with strong crying and tears kept true to God and became the atoning sacrifice. He is worthy of praise and honor and of every ounce of my love and devotion. And I tremble to think that I could do anything to separate myself from Him. If a person's deeds are evil, they won't come to the light. We are to bring forth there for fruits worthy of repentance. The Gospel of Grace is very much alive and well in the meetings. Do I say it every time I open my mouth? No. But it is something I speak about often. We can never be enough, do enough or give enough to be saved. But do I believe Jesus came to be our example? Yes! He said it Himself. 1. John 13:15 KJV - 5 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 2. Matthew 16:24 KJV - 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 3. Romans 5:10 KJV - 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 4. 1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. And many more, but I am running out of time. Why would he have come and been born a baby and lived into adulthood if His life doesn't matter? He could have just appeared and died on the cross. He lived a life proving it is possible to please God while in this body and showing us how. Do we think we could live that we don't need the blood of Christ? No! We all like sheep have gone astray. It is Christ who will present His bride to Himself perfected. We are not a perfect church. We are not a perfect people, but we love Jesus. We want to be His bride, so we give our lives to Him, going outside the camp to be identified with Him and rejected by people like you who misunderstand us completely. Or maybe you are judging all of us by examples of people who are not of us, even though they are among us. That is identifying all of the wheat as tares because there are tares among the wheat. Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat. He is not confused, the angels aren't confused, but He knew His people would be confused, so He said, let them grow there along the wheat, lest you root out the wheat also. I hate the things that some people are doing and calling themselves a disciple. They are disciples of the devil. It is disgusting, and I hate it! I am raging inside because they have hurt people, especially children! I ABHOR IT!!!! And I have an ache inside me because of the victims. I beg God to give them comfort because they have been WRONGED! I can't stand it, but I go on. Why? Because there are still sheep to look after, there are God's true children that love one another with a pure love and who love God and Jesus. It is for them, the sweet lambs and sheep. I can't disappoint them. And my Lord and Savior. I have made promises to Him. I love Him so much. It tears me up to think of adding more sorrow to Him. I want to just curl up in His love and forget everyone else, but His love is causing me to have more love for these little lambs and sheep. I want to put my arms over them and protect them. I am sorry for the tone of this but I have read a lot of your posts and your disdain and condescension makes me feel sick. There are people you know nothing of that are hurting, but you throw stones at them. You don't realize how many of us are reading these forums now. I don't sit in judgement of you and your false beliefs, but that is what I see you do again and again and again. We are growing into the perfect man, but we are not there yet. Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. So the church is being perfected, it is not already perfect. Our understanding is not prefect, our faith is not perfect, our submission is not perfect. But you seem to think we should already be perfect. It is the work of Jesus to perfect the church. But I guess you are already perfect, so go ahead and sit in your high tower and cast stones on people you don't know. I am not a believer so the talk about grace or works is not something I think about. But I wanted to address your post because I wanted to say that I am so sorry for what has happened and that you are hurting along with many of the friends. Welcome to our forum. Many different beliefs abide here. Please don't let one persons belief add to your pain. |
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Post by margaret on Jun 3, 2023 15:25:12 GMT -5
Elizabeth Coleman said: Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with?Thank you Dub, you see Elizabeth for what she is. Others also do, including those who don't profess/aren't part of our church, one such poster: "Shining again Elizabeth, brightly and gloriously. "
"1. False accusation.2. False accusation.3. True, then false accusation. 4. Random diversion. 5. Random diversion. It's not looking good, maybe use less of your emotions and show a little more grace."But she'll keep attempting to defend herself and deflecting from uncomfortable truth about herself.
If you have all day to go back and forth with her, then go for it! See if her method is any different from what the perceptive poster above observed.
Now watch what and see how she or one of her supporters/cheerleaders respond to this! Is there no end to hypocrisy? You’re doing what you accuse her of doing. Shining again brightly? This is your example of that? “It’s not looking good maybe use a little less of your emotions and a little more grace.” Obviously that doesn’t apply to you. “Perceptive poster above”, what the hell!! Those are just opinions that they have that match your own. Sounds like your accusations are false in the light of Christ. Random diversions? Please!! Do you know Elizabeth’s background!? Jesus just hated when others put down people they didn’t agree with. I’m just wondering when Christ will be able to open your eyes to see the truth about yourself. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 15:28:10 GMT -5
Just to be clear, when I say "the church, " I do not mean the meetings in the home, workers, etc. I mean THE CHURCH. That is the body of Christ. His people who have His spirit. I am very aware that there are workers, elders, friends who are not a part of THE CHURCH. They have proven that by their evil deeds. And I am quite sure there are people on the earth that we know nothing of, but we will meet them in the air with Jesus. He knows what is in man. He knows who are His. If a person claims being in a group of people as being in THE CHURCH, they might be in for a rude awakening. Let's hope the awakening isn't to the second resurrection.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 15:39:04 GMT -5
Just because people use terminology differently doesn't mean they do or don't mean the same thing. Why does everyone always assume that people have the same IQ, cognitive ability with the scriptures? There can be endless discussions about grace, trinity, Salvation, all kinds of things because people are not understanding what the other person is saying, but IQ does not mean someone cannot be right with God, even if they use the terminology differently. Grace is not the same as once saved always saved, in my mind, but maybe that worker heard someone use those two terms in the same way, and so they think everyone does. grace 1 of 2 noun ˈgrās Synonyms of grace 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance Capisce? I know the sister worker you mention VERY WELL! If you don't know her, don't assume you know why she is not in the work. She has [redacted because I am not sure if it is appropriate to expose her problems],not some special spiritual understanding of grace. It is not because she was preaching in a way that is more refined in her understanding of grace. Please, you have no idea. I don't know what those sister workers meant who said that about grace, but they didn't mean she was preaching about grace as being the unmerited favor and divine help of God. I promise you that. Maybe she was preaching about once saved always saved who knows. But don't tell me about her, I already know her. Do you? It doesn't matter if I know her or not. The point has nothing to do with why she actually left, rather what others said about why she left, and by extension, what they think about grace. It's far from the only time grace has come up and it's been treated like a scary subject by some. Incidentally I'm curious to know why she actually left but either I'm told "she was a troublemaker" with no context other than preaching grace, or people who do know her get all defensive but refuse to say why. *shrug* Well, obviously you know so much more than I do, so I will let you go wallow in your great understanding. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 16:49:14 GMT -5
Well, obviously you know so much more than I do, so I will let you go wallow in your great understanding. I'm pretty sure you aren't actually reading what I write. Why so defensive and aggressive? You asked "who says this about grace?" and I gave you an example of a worker and a friend who both were negative toward the concept of grace. Somehow you turned that into I think I know more than you about the TX sister? SMH. Snow's response above completely changed my spirit, and so now I feel terrible because you are so right! I was responding out of a place of anger, and I need to take a step back from my anger and try to have a civil conversation. I won't burden you with the details, but just to recognize that you are right, and I am sorry. I feel also like you aren't reading my posts. I already stated these things, but I will state them again to try to have a discourse with you. 1. Not everyone going to meetings has the Spirit of God. So maybe your sample size of 2 happen to both be people going to meetings but without any actual understanding. 2. Not everyone going to meeting has the same IQ. I had to finally accept this because it drove me crazy how people either didn't know things or had a misconception about things. But in talking with them and being in meeting with them, they have a wonderful spirit, but there are certain concepts that are beyond them, or that it will just take them a long time and a lot of explanation for them to get. Do you expect someone with Downs syndrome to understand everything? No! But they can still have the spirit of God. Well, there are people that are considered below average normal intelligence. This is what I found online. 70 to 84: Borderline mental disability 85 to 114: Average intelligence 85 vs 114 makes a HUGE difference. So maybe your sample size of 2 were people with below average normal intelligence and so their understanding of grace isn't as high level as others, who knows? So all I am saying is that taking 2 people and extrapolating that as almost everyone in the "truth" is not helpful. I have been reading here and on WINGS and posting some in the comments on WINGS. I am so sick of getting slammed and labeled and so on, so I probably won't post on here after today. It is just too emotionally exhausting. You pulled grace out of my very first post to put me in my place and used the example of exactly 2 people to say that's what most of the friends and workers believe. Capisce? It got my hackles up and for that I apologize. I don't know your situation, either in the above two points. So I should definitely cut you some slack, too. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 16:50:50 GMT -5
Elizabeth Coleman Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with? Who exactly says this? Have you been to a meeting recently? How do you know what is being spoken at meeting? You accuse people of believing that their salvation is dependant on works, but who do you know that goes to meeting besides the few people who post on here? You stand in judgment of people you know nothing about. You pride yourself in having separated your family from meetings, so where do you get your information? You are coming from a place of judgement, which you accuse the workers of. You know nothing about us, except for the stunted understanding you had from many years ago. So now you stand in your ivory palace and throw stones. Unless you are willing to come down off of your high horse, you will never see that we don't believe that the law saves us and that our one true love is Jesus, the One who gave Himself for us and with strong crying and tears kept true to God and became the atoning sacrifice. He is worthy of praise and honor and of every ounce of my love and devotion. And I tremble to think that I could do anything to separate myself from Him. If a person's deeds are evil, they won't come to the light. We are to bring forth there for fruits worthy of repentance. The Gospel of Grace is very much alive and well in the meetings. Do I say it every time I open my mouth? No. But it is something I speak about often. We can never be enough, do enough or give enough to be saved. But do I believe Jesus came to be our example? Yes! He said it Himself. 1. John 13:15 KJV - 5 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 2. Matthew 16:24 KJV - 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 3. Romans 5:10 KJV - 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 4. 1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. And many more, but I am running out of time. Why would he have come and been born a baby and lived into adulthood if His life doesn't matter? He could have just appeared and died on the cross. He lived a life proving it is possible to please God while in this body and showing us how. Do we think we could live that we don't need the blood of Christ? No! We all like sheep have gone astray. It is Christ who will present His bride to Himself perfected. We are not a perfect church. We are not a perfect people, but we love Jesus. We want to be His bride, so we give our lives to Him, going outside the camp to be identified with Him and rejected by people like you who misunderstand us completely. Or maybe you are judging all of us by examples of people who are not of us, even though they are among us. That is identifying all of the wheat as tares because there are tares among the wheat. Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat. He is not confused, the angels aren't confused, but He knew His people would be confused, so He said, let them grow there along the wheat, lest you root out the wheat also. I hate the things that some people are doing and calling themselves a disciple. They are disciples of the devil. It is disgusting, and I hate it! I am raging inside because they have hurt people, especially children! I ABHOR IT!!!! And I have an ache inside me because of the victims. I beg God to give them comfort because they have been WRONGED! I can't stand it, but I go on. Why? Because there are still sheep to look after, there are God's true children that love one another with a pure love and who love God and Jesus. It is for them, the sweet lambs and sheep. I can't disappoint them. And my Lord and Savior. I have made promises to Him. I love Him so much. It tears me up to think of adding more sorrow to Him. I want to just curl up in His love and forget everyone else, but His love is causing me to have more love for these little lambs and sheep. I want to put my arms over them and protect them. I am sorry for the tone of this but I have read a lot of your posts and your disdain and condescension makes me feel sick. There are people you know nothing of that are hurting, but you throw stones at them. You don't realize how many of us are reading these forums now. I don't sit in judgement of you and your false beliefs, but that is what I see you do again and again and again. We are growing into the perfect man, but we are not there yet. Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. So the church is being perfected, it is not already perfect. Our understanding is not prefect, our faith is not perfect, our submission is not perfect. But you seem to think we should already be I am not a believer so the talk about grace or works is not something I think about. But I wanted to address your post because I wanted to say that I am so sorry for what has happened and that you are hurting along with many of the friends. Welcome to our forum. Many different beliefs abide here. Please don't let one persons belief add to your pain. Snow, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You have no idea what your kind words did to me. I have been feeling such extreme anger, and I don't know how to handle it because it is an unusual thing for me. So your words tore down all of the floodgates, and I had a long cry. I feel so powerless and so angry, but I try to keep it in because I don't want to hurt those around me. I don't want to infect them with my anger. I hadn't even cried yet, until I read your words. I was just so angry. Thank you, thank you for helping me to finally feel sorrow instead of just anger. |
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Post by snow on Jun 3, 2023 17:16:12 GMT -5
Snow, thank you from the bottom of my heart. You have no idea what your kind words did to me. I have been feeling such extreme anger, and I don't know how to handle it because it is an unusual thing for me. So your words tore down all of the floodgates, and I had a long cry. I feel so powerless and so angry, but I try to keep it in because I don't want to hurt those around me. I don't want to infect them with my anger. I hadn't even cried yet, until I read your words. I was just so angry. Thank you, thank you for helping me to finally feel sorrow instead of just anger. I can only imagine what it's like for the workers and friends. I feel sorrow and I haven't been professing for 55 years. I have fond memories of the friends I knew and I still keep in touch with some of them. I truly hope some healing is in all of our futures. Feeling powerless is so hard. Waiting for the slow wheels of justice is also hard. Hugs |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 3, 2023 17:30:20 GMT -5
Why would he have come and been born a baby and lived into adulthood if His life doesn't matter? He could have just appeared and died on the cross. He lived a life proving it is possible to please God while in this body and showing us how.
Do we think we could live that we don't need the blood of Christ? No! We all like sheep have gone astray. It is Christ who will present His bride to Himself perfected. We are not a perfect church. We are not a perfect people, but we love Jesus. We want to be His bride, so we give our lives to Him, going outside the camp to be identified with Him and rejected by people like you who misunderstand us completely.Hi Dub, Thanks for your reponse. I am truly sorry you are hurting so much. I do not know you, or your faith, and do not judge you for it. You probably don't know my story. When I came to an understanding of the gospel of grace here in Australia in the early 90s, the workers here completedly refuted it. I had to leave the meetings because the workers "preached a different gospel". Yes, Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins, and to pay the atoning sacrifice. Why was he born as a baby and lived in adulthood? To fulfill the law perfectly. Not only is his death credited to us, but also his righteous life. Matthew 5:17: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.Romans 10:17 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
His death brings our account from negative back to zero. But his righteous life is also credited to our account, perfectly fulfilling the law, making us worthy in God's eyes. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22)Not only is forgiveness granted to us, but also righteousness. The general doctrine of the workers is that we need to follow Jesus' example and pattern and "be more worthy". Jesus' sacrifice then fills up whatever we are lacking. But there is never any true assurance - we always fall short, are not worthy, need to try harder, be more worthy. This is a gospel of works. The ministry, with the workers' "sacrifice" of themselves is another form of works they insist is mandatory. The general doctrine of the workers is that Jesus paid for our sins, but we need to fill up our own righteousness. This is not the gospel of the Bible. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22 and keep reading this passage)Gal 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Jesus died to pay for our sins, but also came to live be the fulfilment of the law, that we might be righteous in him. That passage you quoted from Romans 5:10 says it all: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
I am not perfect, not at all, not in any way. My only and full hope is in the blood and righteousness of Christ. Which is why I asked of Wally - If my only hope is in the blood and righteousness of Christ, where do I fall short of true faith? What "works" is he doing that I lack, that will add to his (or my) salvation? Is he truly more righteous than me? Are you? Can any of us dare to declare this against another person? You said "I do not judge you for your false beliefs". The judgement appears intrinsic in the statement itself, but I would also ask you - why is my belief false?
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Post by neighbour on Jun 3, 2023 17:41:09 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you aren't actually reading what I write. Why so defensive and aggressive? You asked "who says this about grace?" and I gave you an example of a worker and a friend who both were negative toward the concept of grace. Somehow you turned that into I think I know more than you about the TX sister? SMH. Snow's response above completely changed my spirit, and so now I feel terrible because you are so right! I was responding out of a place of anger, and I need to take a step back from my anger and try to have a civil conversation. I won't burden you with the details, but just to recognize that you are right, and I am sorry. I feel also like you aren't reading my posts. I already stated these things, but I will state them again to try to have a discourse with you. 1. Not everyone going to meetings has the Spirit of God. So maybe your sample size of 2 happen to both be people going to meetings but without any actual understanding. 2. Not everyone going to meeting has the same IQ. I had to finally accept this because it drove me crazy how people either didn't know things or had a misconception about things. But in talking with them and being in meeting with them, they have a wonderful spirit, but there are certain concepts that are beyond them, or that it will just take them a long time and a lot of explanation for them to get. Do you expect someone with Downs syndrome to understand everything? No! But they can still have the spirit of God. Well, there are people that are considered below average normal intelligence. This is what I found online. 70 to 84: Borderline mental disability 85 to 114: Average intelligence 85 vs 114 makes a HUGE difference. So maybe your sample size of 2 were people with below average normal intelligence and so their understanding of grace isn't as high level as others, who knows? So all I am saying is that taking 2 people and extrapolating that as almost everyone in the "truth" is not helpful. I have been reading here and on WINGS and posting some in the comments on WINGS. I am so sick of getting slammed and labeled and so on, so I probably won't post on here after today. It is just too emotionally exhausting. You pulled grace out of my very first post to put me in my place and used the example of exactly 2 people to say that's what most of the friends and workers believe. Capisce? It got my hackles up and for that I apologize. I don't know your situation, either in the above two points. So I should definitely cut you some slack, too. I never said "most". You came in here accusing someone of being clueless for identifying an anti-grace doctrine among the friends and workers. If I "put you in your place", so be it I guess. Currently professing, born and raised, definitely believe in Paul's gospel of grace to the Gentiles but many do not. And it's not just "low-IQ" people. I agree there is a lot of superficial understanding by many. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 18:17:56 GMT -5
Just because people use terminology differently doesn't mean they do or don't mean the same thing. Why does everyone always assume that people have the same IQ, cognitive ability with the scriptures? There can be endless discussions about grace, trinity, Salvation, all kinds of things because people are not understanding what the other person is saying, but IQ does not mean someone cannot be right with God, even if they use the terminology differently. Grace is not the same as once saved always saved, in my mind, but maybe that worker heard someone use those two terms in the same way, and so they think everyone does. grace 1 of 2 noun ˈgrās Synonyms of grace 1 a : unmerited divine assistance given to humans for their regeneration or sanctification b : a virtue coming from God c : a state of sanctification enjoyed through divine assistance Capisce? I know the sister worker you mention VERY WELL! If you don't know her, don't assume you know why she is not in the work. She has [redacted because I am not sure if it is appropriate to expose her problems],not some special spiritual understanding of grace. It is not because she was preaching in a way that is more refined in her understanding of grace. Please, you have no idea. I don't know what those sister workers meant who said that about grace, but they didn't mean she was preaching about grace as being the unmerited favor and divine help of God. I promise you that. Maybe she was preaching about once saved always saved who knows. But don't tell me about her, I already know her. Do you? It doesn't matter if I know her or not. The point has nothing to do with why she actually left, rather what others said about why she left, and by extension, what they think about grace. It's far from the only time grace has come up and it's been treated like a scary subject by some. Incidentally I'm curious to know why she actually left but either I'm told "she was a troublemaker" with no context other than preaching grace, or people who do know her get all defensive but refuse to say why. *shrug* If you want to know the why, I can tell you some of it. If you want to know in a genuine interest and not for gossip, send me a PM. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 19:03:33 GMT -5
Why would he have come and been born a baby and lived into adulthood if His life doesn't matter? He could have just appeared and died on the cross. He lived a life proving it is possible to please God while in this body and showing us how.
Do we think we could live that we don't need the blood of Christ? No! We all like sheep have gone astray. It is Christ who will present His bride to Himself perfected. We are not a perfect church. We are not a perfect people, but we love Jesus. We want to be His bride, so we give our lives to Him, going outside the camp to be identified with Him and rejected by people like you who misunderstand us completely.Hi Dub, Thanks for your reponse. I am truly sorry you are hurting so much. I do not know you, or your faith, and do not judge you for it. You probably don't know my story. When I came to an understanding of the gospel of grace here in Australia in the early 90s, the workers here completedly refuted it. I had to leave the meetings because the workers "preached a different gospel". Yes, Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins, and to pay the atoning sacrifice. Why was he born as a baby and lived in adulthood? To fulfill the law perfectly. Not only is his death credited to us, but also his righteous life. Matthew 5:17: Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.Romans 10:17 Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.
His death brings our account from negative back to zero. But his righteous life is also credited to our account, perfectly fulfilling the law, making us worthy in God's eyes. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 1 Cor 1:30
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22)Not only is forgiveness granted to us, but also righteousness. The general doctrine of the workers is that we need to follow Jesus' example and pattern and "be more worthy". Jesus' sacrifice then fills up whatever we are lacking. But there is never any true assurance - we always fall short, are not worthy, need to try harder, be more worthy. This is a gospel of works. The ministry, with the workers' "sacrifice" of themselves is another form of works they insist is mandatory. The general doctrine of the workers is that Jesus paid for our sins, but we need to fill up our own righteousness. This is not the gospel of the Bible. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. (Romans 3:22 and keep reading this passage)Gal 2:16 - yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.Jesus died to pay for our sins, but also came to live be the fulfilment of the law, that we might be righteous in him. That passage you quoted from Romans 5:10 says it all: For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
I am not perfect, not at all, not in any way. My only and full hope is in the blood and righteousness of Christ. Which is why I asked of Wally - If my only hope is in the blood and righteousness of Christ, where do I fall short of true faith? What "works" is he doing that I lack, that will add to his (or my) salvation? Is he truly more righteous than me? Are you? Can any of us dare to declare this against another person? You said "I do not judge you for your false beliefs". The judgement appears intrinsic in the statement itself, but I would also ask you - why is my belief false? Sorry. I still don't see how you can say it is the general gospel of the workers. I'm sorry for your experience in the 90s. I guess I am confused what the workers thought was false about your belief? The only false thing I have seen you say is what you think the workers generally believe. I have never heard anyone say or even imply the following. "The general doctrine of the workers is that we need to follow Jesus' example and pattern and "be more worthy". Jesus' sacrifice then fills up whatever we are lacking. But there is never any true assurance - we always fall short, are not worthy, need to try harder, be more worthy. This is a gospel of works. The ministry, with the workers' "sacrifice" of themselves is another form of works they insist is mandatory." Jesus' sacrifice fills up what we are lacking? Did you actually hear workers say that? I have never heard that. Our works are not the works of the law. Our works are obedience. We obey God, that proves our faith. Rehab hid the spies, and Abraham offered his son. They obeyed God. This is not about the works of the law that you are quoting. It is about obedience. Matthew 10:37-39 KJV - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. We are not trying to be worthy in our own works, we are trying to be worthy of HIM. If we don't take up our cross and follow after Him, we are not worthy of HIM. all He did for us will not avail us if we are not willing to obey Him. We lose our life FOR HIS SAKE, not to prove we don't need Him, and we know that we have no hope without His sacrifice, and the only hope we have is to follow His words and obey Him. I don't live the way I do to try to make other people think I am righteous. No it is to obey Him because I want to be with Him forever. He is all in all to me. We are not obeying the law. There is no reason to continue this conversation if we are just going to go round and round. You like to say what the workers generally speak about. But I wish you could come and listen in. I don't hear that. So that is why it feels like you are judging us by what you experienced years ago. Maybe those workers were wrong. I am very sorry about that, if that is the case, or maybe they misunderstood, or maybe you did. I dont know. I wasn't there to hear what they actually said, the same as you aren't in meetings now to hear what is actually being said. The false beliefs I was speaking about is your thinking you know everything about us. I have not read all of your posts enough to know exactly what you believe. I only have read enough to see you putting us in a box and labeling us. So be it. I want to apologize to you and anyone reading this thread because I am not an angry person, but I let anger guide the first posts on this forum and probably my last. Sorry. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 19:35:36 GMT -5
Snow's response above completely changed my spirit, and so now I feel terrible because you are so right! I was responding out of a place of anger, and I need to take a step back from my anger and try to have a civil conversation. I won't burden you with the details, but just to recognize that you are right, and I am sorry. I feel also like you aren't reading my posts. I already stated these things, but I will state them again to try to have a discourse with you. 1. Not everyone going to meetings has the Spirit of God. So maybe your sample size of 2 happen to both be people going to meetings but without any actual understanding. 2. Not everyone going to meeting has the same IQ. I had to finally accept this because it drove me crazy how people either didn't know things or had a misconception about things. But in talking with them and being in meeting with them, they have a wonderful spirit, but there are certain concepts that are beyond them, or that it will just take them a long time and a lot of explanation for them to get. Do you expect someone with Downs syndrome to understand everything? No! But they can still have the spirit of God. Well, there are people that are considered below average normal intelligence. This is what I found online. 70 to 84: Borderline mental disability 85 to 114: Average intelligence 85 vs 114 makes a HUGE difference. So maybe your sample size of 2 were people with below average normal intelligence and so their understanding of grace isn't as high level as others, who knows? So all I am saying is that taking 2 people and extrapolating that as almost everyone in the "truth" is not helpful. I have been reading here and on WINGS and posting some in the comments on WINGS. I am so sick of getting slammed and labeled and so on, so I probably won't post on here after today. It is just too emotionally exhausting. You pulled grace out of my very first post to put me in my place and used the example of exactly 2 people to say that's what most of the friends and workers believe. Capisce? It got my hackles up and for that I apologize. I don't know your situation, either in the above two points. So I should definitely cut you some slack, too. I never said "most". You came in here accusing someone of being clueless for identifying an anti-grace doctrine among the friends and workers. If I "put you in your place", so be it I guess. Currently professing, born and raised, definitely believe in Paul's gospel of grace to the Gentiles but many do not. And it's not just "low-IQ" people. I agree there is a lot of superficial understanding by many. This is what you said before... "Many friends and workers conflate the two, so grace is verboten in their eyes. Capisce?" So I guess it was many not most. So I guess you think 2 is many? I'm really joking. I know you don't. But I could introduce you to hundreds that know their works won't save them and that our only hope is Calvary. But is it wrong to say that we do need to obey God? I guess that is up for interpretation in what it is to obey, right? I know you were coming out strong because I came out strong against Elizabeth , and you were right to do that. I had no right to talk to her the way I did. Hopefully she and you and everyone else will accept my apology. I was trying to defend the honor of friends and workers that don't fit into the box of "don't believe the Gospel of Grace and instead believe and teach the Gospel of works in obeying the law." I don't fit in that box and neither do many, many people. |
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Post by chuck on Jun 3, 2023 19:45:03 GMT -5
Dub...
"I don't sit in judgement of you and your false beliefs"
But yet you just did whilst saying you don't!.
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Post by neighbour on Jun 3, 2023 20:04:17 GMT -5
I never said "most". You came in here accusing someone of being clueless for identifying an anti-grace doctrine among the friends and workers. If I "put you in your place", so be it I guess. Currently professing, born and raised, definitely believe in Paul's gospel of grace to the Gentiles but many do not. And it's not just "low-IQ" people. I agree there is a lot of superficial understanding by many. This is what you said before... "Many friends and workers conflate the two, so grace is verboten in their eyes. Capisce?" So I guess it was many not most. So I guess you think 2 is many? I'm really joking. I know you don't. But I could introduce you to hundreds that know their works won't save them and that our only hope is Calvary. But is it wrong to say that we do need to obey God? I guess that is up for interpretation in what it is to obey, right? I know you were coming out strong because I came out strong against Elizabeth , and you were right to do that. I had no right to talk to her the way I did. Hopefully she and you and everyone else will accept my apology. I was trying to defend the honor of friends and workers that don't fit into the box of "don't believe the Gospel of Grace and instead believe and teach the Gospel of works in obeying the law." I don't fit in that box and neither do many, many people. Correct, I said "many" because I did not mean "most". There is another group of "many" that evidently think they can sin intentionally without eternal consequence. There are also "many" that have no idea whether they believe in grace, works, neither, or both, which is arguably scarier. Of course we should obey God. The beauty of faith is that through the power of his grace we will gladly obey. BTW I PM'ed you. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 20:11:10 GMT -5
Dub... "I don't sit in judgement of you and your false beliefs" But yet you just did whilst saying you don't!. You are right |
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Post by chuck on Jun 3, 2023 20:19:06 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure you aren't actually reading what I write. Why so defensive and aggressive? You asked "who says this about grace?" and I gave you an example of a worker and a friend who both were negative toward the concept of grace. Somehow you turned that into I think I know more than you about the TX sister? SMH. Snow's response above completely changed my spirit, and so now I feel terrible because you are so right! I was responding out of a place of anger, and I need to take a step back from my anger and try to have a civil conversation. I won't burden you with the details, but just to recognize that you are right, and I am sorry. I feel also like you aren't reading my posts. I already stated these things, but I will state them again to try to have a discourse with you. 1. Not everyone going to meetings has the Spirit of God. So maybe your sample size of 2 happen to both be people going to meetings but without any actual understanding. 2. Not everyone going to meeting has the same IQ. I had to finally accept this because it drove me crazy how people either didn't know things or had a misconception about things. But in talking with them and being in meeting with them, they have a wonderful spirit, but there are certain concepts that are beyond them, or that it will just take them a long time and a lot of explanation for them to get. Do you expect someone with Downs syndrome to understand everything? No! But they can still have the spirit of God. Well, there are people that are considered below average normal intelligence. This is what I found online. 70 to 84: Borderline mental disability 85 to 114: Average intelligence 85 vs 114 makes a HUGE difference. So maybe your sample size of 2 were people with below average normal intelligence and so their understanding of grace isn't as high level as others, who knows? So all I am saying is that taking 2 people and extrapolating that as almost everyone in the "truth" is not helpful. I have been reading here and on WINGS and posting some in the comments on WINGS. I am so sick of getting slammed and labeled and so on, so I probably won't post on here after today. It is just too emotionally exhausting. You pulled grace out of my very first post to put me in my place and used the example of exactly 2 people to say that's what most of the friends and workers believe. Capisce? It got my hackles up and for that I apologize. I don't know your situation, either in the above two points. So I should definitely cut you some slack, too. I have heard at least a couple Australian workers say the same things about grace as unwatched has described within the last 2 years. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 3, 2023 21:41:56 GMT -5
I could introduce you to hundreds that know their works won't save them and that our only hope is Calvary. Some hymns come to mind... Increase our faith when, night at hand, Death would return our souls to Thee; Grant us the faith that understands Our only hope is CalvaryMy heart would oft discouraged be, But Christ now intercedes for me; So at the throne of grace I seek The peace He to my heart would speak. This world my home could never be, For Christ is coming back for me; Should death sound out the final call, My heart will whisper “Christ is all.”This one has grace in every verse... 236. My Heart O’erflows My heart o’erflows with praise to God alway, For needed grace He gives me day by day, Which is sufficient to enable me To fight the battle, gain the victory. How restful is my heart when this I know: According to my need, He’ll grace bestow. Midst fiery trials and when tempted sore, In tender care He points me to that door– The entrance of the quiet, secret place, Where I can wait before the throne of grace. While waiting there I’m cleansed from sin and fear, My strength renewed, the way made plain and clear. As in this present, evil world I see So much that would defile and hinder me, It surely causes me to cleave the more Unto the Lord, and have His grace in store, That in all things I may keep pure and clean, Still live for things this world has never seen. I long to live so that my life will show How much it means such boundless grace to know, That every weary, fearful soul I meet, Who day by day is suffering from defeat, Might through his tears and sorrows see in me What he could share through grace so rich and free. The One who knows the trials of each hour, Knows flesh would fail, how much I need His power; What rest it brings my heart to hear Him say, “I’ll give you grace, no power my hand can stay.” What rest it brings my heart to hear Him say, “I’ll give you grace, no power my hand can stay.” |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 22:18:33 GMT -5
The topic I answered was about Christ as our example you totally lost it on that one... Belief, repentance, obedience, Bearing fruit/proof of progress all under Christs blood. You rarely fail to disappoint others either. "Totally lost it" - totally disagree. Dan and I came to a fairly similar agreement. As did a number of the other professing people here on TMB. You were the only one still beating your own drum. Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with? Or do you always have to disagree with me purely on principle of being Wally? Projection is your friend... |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 22:20:50 GMT -5
Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. What part of that do you disagree with? [/quote] Who exactly says this? Have you been to a meeting recently? How do you know what is being spoken at meeting? You accuse people of believing that their salvation is dependant on works, but who do you know that goes to meeting besides the few people who post on here? You stand in judgment of people you know nothing about. You pride yourself in having separated your family from meetings, so where do you get your information? You are coming from a place of judgement, which you accuse the workers of. You know nothing about us, except for the stunted understanding you had from many years ago. So now you stand in your ivory palace and throw stones. Unless you are willing to come down off of your high horse, you will never see that we don't believe that the law saves us and that our one true love is Jesus, the One who gave Himself for us and with strong crying and tears kept true to God and became the atoning sacrifice. He is worthy of praise and honor and of every ounce of my love and devotion. And I tremble to think that I could do anything to separate myself from Him. If a person's deeds are evil, they won't come to the light. We are to bring forth there for fruits worthy of repentance. The Gospel of Grace is very much alive and well in the meetings. Do I say it every time I open my mouth? No. But it is something I speak about often. We can never be enough, do enough or give enough to be saved. But do I believe Jesus came to be our example? Yes! He said it Himself. 1. John 13:15 KJV - 5 For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. 2. Matthew 16:24 KJV - 24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. 3. Romans 5:10 KJV - 10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 4. 1 Peter 2:21-25 KJV - For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: 24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. 25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls. And many more, but I am running out of time. Why would he have come and been born a baby and lived into adulthood if His life doesn't matter? He could have just appeared and died on the cross. He lived a life proving it is possible to please God while in this body and showing us how. Do we think we could live that we don't need the blood of Christ? No! We all like sheep have gone astray. It is Christ who will present His bride to Himself perfected. We are not a perfect church. We are not a perfect people, but we love Jesus. We want to be His bride, so we give our lives to Him, going outside the camp to be identified with Him and rejected by people like you who misunderstand us completely. Or maybe you are judging all of us by examples of people who are not of us, even though they are among us. That is identifying all of the wheat as tares because there are tares among the wheat. Jesus said there would be tares among the wheat. He is not confused, the angels aren't confused, but He knew His people would be confused, so He said, let them grow there along the wheat, lest you root out the wheat also. I hate the things that some people are doing and calling themselves a disciple. They are disciples of the devil. It is disgusting, and I hate it! I am raging inside because they have hurt people, especially children! I ABHOR IT!!!! And I have an ache inside me because of the victims. I beg God to give them comfort because they have been WRONGED! I can't stand it, but I go on. Why? Because there are still sheep to look after, there are God's true children that love one another with a pure love and who love God and Jesus. It is for them, the sweet lambs and sheep. I can't disappoint them. And my Lord and Savior. I have made promises to Him. I love Him so much. It tears me up to think of adding more sorrow to Him. I want to just curl up in His love and forget everyone else, but His love is causing me to have more love for these little lambs and sheep. I want to put my arms over them and protect them. I am sorry for the tone of this but I have read a lot of your posts and your disdain and condescension makes me feel sick. There are people you know nothing of that are hurting, but you throw stones at them. You don't realize how many of us are reading these forums now. I don't sit in judgement of you and your false beliefs, but that is what I see you do again and again and again. We are growing into the perfect man, but we are not there yet. Ephesians 4:11-16 KJV - And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. So the church is being perfected, it is not already perfect. Our understanding is not prefect, our faith is not perfect, our submission is not perfect. But you seem to think we should already be perfect. It is the work of Jesus to perfect the church. But I guess you are already perfect, so go ahead and sit in your high tower and cast stones on people you don't know.[/quote] -------------------------------------------------------- Well said... She won't get it though... |
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