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Post by xna on Feb 4, 2024 13:39:19 GMT -5
E xcellent, this Heidi DenHerder crystalized my thoughts. Thanks for posting the link Lee .gif) I too found it to be a good summary of important 2x2 claims, and a well written letter. - I wonder what your sister, who I understand is a worker, would think of these ideas? - The writer cites Acts 2:46: "With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart."To me this suggests the early Christians also shared meals together daily, not only on the first day of the week. The “breaking bread" was associated with both specific gatherings on the first day of the week, and more general communal meals throughout the week. |
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Post by fixit on Feb 4, 2024 14:13:23 GMT -5
My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit. - Leo Stancliffe, worker, 1981 What were his converts like? |
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Post by Mary on Feb 4, 2024 14:20:22 GMT -5
My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit. - Leo Stancliffe, worker, 1981 What were his converts like? Obviously those who put their faith in the workers and rules rather than Jesus. |
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Post by Dan on Feb 4, 2024 14:52:46 GMT -5
E xcellent, this Heidi DenHerder crystalized my thoughts. Thanks for posting the link Lee I too found it to be a good summary of important 2x2 claims, and a well written letter. - I wonder what your sister, who I understand is a worker, would think of these ideas? - The writer cites Acts 2:46: "With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart."To me this suggests the early Christians also shared meals together daily, not only on the first day of the week. The “breaking bread" was associated with both specific gatherings on the first day of the week, and more general communal meals throughout the week.
People find bible verses to separate themselves from others, its a; "We are justified because we follow this and you don't" scenario. There are phony churches that are in business to collect money and they teach very little about the bible. From that perspective, the professing way is a breath of fresh air. But I related to what Heidi wrote about celibacy, homes, and missions. Jesus didn't mandate much of what the 2x2's believe and are convinced make them the one and only true way, and neither did Paul.
Jesus is the Truth, not a church. And Jesus is the Path, its not a specific system of procedures that are methodologically devised to earn eternity. I initially liked the simplicity of the Truth, but the exclusivity has essentially gotten them to worship their way, their loyalty is to what they've set-up and mandated to be the truth. Its really developed into a shallow skin deep church, which is more concerned about superficial appearances that make them "a peculiar people" (1 Peter 2:9).
At first, my sister wanted to know about everything that was happening and was taken back by it all. But now she seems to have shifted into defense mode and her loyalty reinforced by the faithful Friends.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 4, 2024 14:54:51 GMT -5
E xcellent, this Heidi DenHerder crystalized my thoughts. Thanks for posting the link Lee I too found it to be a good summary of important 2x2 claims, and a well written letter. - I wonder what your sister, who I understand is a worker, would think of these ideas? - The writer cites Acts 2:46: "With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart."To me this suggests the early Christians also shared meals together daily, not only on the first day of the week. The “breaking bread" was associated with both specific gatherings on the first day of the week, and more general communal meals throughout the week. They also continued to meet daily in the temples. These were the Jews temples. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 4, 2024 15:07:46 GMT -5
I have to agree with Elizabeth here. There is a high expectation to attend meetings. Sunday, gospel meetings, wednesday night, potlucks etc. If you don't attend, you feel you need to offer an "acceptable" excuse. ...and if you miss too many, they will be sure to give you call and check in. Even after having a baby, you are expected to attend all these meetings regardless of the babies schedule or your complete exhaustion. When you return from a holiday or trip, the first thing they ask you is if you contacted the workers and what meeting you went to. Its exhausting. And even now, its hard to say, "I need to take a break from all the meetings" because you KNOW everyone will look down on you. Missing a meeting was equated to missing a meal. Do it too often and you weaken and starve to death (spiritually). This meant every meeting was all important and attendance was essential for your spiritual health. Years later I found out the rest of the world had less meals than we did in the UK. On a Sunday we had PM meetings as well as AM meetings, along with midweek meeting. The rest of the world only had Sunday AM and midweek meeting to contend with. I guess we in the UK were fat spiritually? Haha… Over eating is BAD for your health! You get fat and lazy, without exercise, you can die. You have to have the time to practice put what you heard in the meeting, how can you test anything,?if you continually be at the meetings?  You must be lights and salt in this dark world, you can’t hole up in the closet/meetings all the time, you know. You have to pay the bills and family to care for too. |
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 4, 2024 15:22:21 GMT -5
E xcellent, this Heidi DenHerder crystalized my thoughts. Thanks for posting the link Lee I too found it to be a good summary of important 2x2 claims, and a well written letter. - I wonder what your sister, who I understand is a worker, would think of these ideas? - The writer cites Acts 2:46: "With one accord they continued to meet daily in the temple courts and to break bread from house to house, sharing their meals with gladness and sincerity of heart."To me this suggests the early Christians also shared meals together daily, not only on the first day of the week. The “breaking bread" was associated with both specific gatherings on the first day of the week, and more general communal meals throughout the week. You have to KNOW the situation of what really happened so, you can get the correct understanding of things! In John chapters 14-16 Jesus told the apostles that He would send the Holy Spirit after his death to carry on His gospel work! He told the apostles NOT to leave Jerusalem so they waited. In Acts 2 the Holy Spirit came down from heaven as Jesus had told them to lead the apostles and his followers to carry on/teaching/preaching the gospel to the time of Jesus returns! READ Acts 1: 7-11. It was at the Pentecostal feast where Jews came From 17 nations to celebrate! It was at this time the Holy Spirit gave the apostles a BIG helping hand, where He performed many amazing miracles and a total of 8000 converts! The converts wanted to stay in Jerusalem about a month or so to learn more about their new found faith, about Jesus teachings. The believers in Jerusalem sold their things, property gave their cash money to the apostles (Read Acts 5) so, they could make these newly converts stay in Jerusalem longer with their New spiritual family! They gathered much money and distribute among themselves so nobody got left out in the street. It was one time thing! The apostles and their new converts went to the temple to there the good news of Christ they’re Savior with the unbelieving Jews! They went to the temple to make converts for Jesus. Read Acts 3. After a month or so, these 1000s of converts went back homes! The Holy Spirit laid the ground works, later on Paul and his fellow co-worker preaching to the Gentiles nations, many of these 1000s of converts readily to open their homes and support the apostles with their missions. |
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Post by xna on Feb 4, 2024 15:32:13 GMT -5
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 4, 2024 15:44:25 GMT -5
Yes, I read it and she didn’t get a lot of Jesus Christ New Testament apostolic 2x2 100% correctly! And other things. You can start a new thread on her writings and I will expose her errors and let the readers decide and to draw their own conclusion. |
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Post by xna on Feb 4, 2024 16:06:43 GMT -5
Yes, I read it and she didn’t get a lot of Jesus Christ New Testament apostolic 2x2 100% correctly! And other things. You can start a new thread on her writings and I will expose her errors and let the readers decide and to draw their own conclusion. I was satisfied with her explanations. |
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 4, 2024 16:56:23 GMT -5
Yes, I read it and she didn’t get a lot of Jesus Christ New Testament apostolic 2x2 100% correctly! And other things. You can start a new thread on her writings and I will expose her errors and let the readers decide and to draw their own conclusion. I was satisfied with her explanations. Hey, your choice. You might learn something new and get a better view and a better understanding of things. |
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Post by fixit on Feb 4, 2024 18:17:01 GMT -5
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Post by Lee on Feb 5, 2024 10:13:38 GMT -5
I read her writings and she didn’t do a good job of explaining Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic itinerant ministry and fellowship. Hi, Lee my old buddy! Good to see you on here. Hi Nathan, I thought her inquiry was rather intelligent. I also think the experience of your calling inordinately bonded you to outward aspects of christianity. Christians say sometimes, their rituals like baptisms and sunday worship manifest the church. This is true, of course. But I think it would be wrong to mistake outward symbolism for inner growth. Apostolic christianity was founded on the transformational identification that extends from honoring Jesus, and the prayerful journey of anticipating, a "new" heaven and earth. A couple questions for you: Is it scriptural to forbid marriage? Do the workers have the authority to separate the sheep from the goats into one flock; are they angels, reaping the harvest? Or have they presumed this calling and authority? |
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 5, 2024 10:50:11 GMT -5
I read her writings and she didn’t do a good job of explaining Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic itinerant ministry and fellowship. Hi, Lee my old buddy! Good to see you on here. Hi Nathan, I thought her inquiry was rather intelligent, and I think the experience of your calling inordinately bonded you to outward aspects of christianity. Christians say sometimes, their rituals like baptisms and sunday worship manifest the church. This is of course, true. But I think it would be wrong to mistake this for apostolic christianity, which was grounded in the transformational identification that extends from honoring Jesus. A couple test questions for you: Is it scriptural to forbid marriage? Do they have the authority to separate the sheep from the goats, are they angels, reaping the harvest? Or have they presumed this calling and authority? It’s NOT forbidden to be married in the work, Peter and a few of apostles were married ICor. 9:5, but is NOT very practical having children in the work living from house to house of the friends. It’s NOT a very suitable lifestyle for the children. One married couple workers from had a baby girl, and she was very sick so, one of the friends adopted and raised as her own the the married couple workers continued in the work, till their dying day. Their daughter married to an ex-worker, they took care of them in their old age. Another married couple workers had two children in the work, they sent the family to labor in Hawaii. They rent a house for them to stay, the friends help out and the husband work part time. I stayed in the son’s home a few times and I talked him about his parents and his growing up, he said it wasn’t easy life for them. His sister has never professed. It’s good to have married workers without children in the work these days, due to shortage of workers, we had quite a few married workers in the in the beginning for 70 years. 2) Yes, according to the scriptures they do Paul wrote about it in I Tim 1:20; II Tim 2:17-18 Paul handed two apostles to Satan because they were preaching false teachings and destroyed the faith of some followers of Jesus. I Cor. Paul excommunicated a man who had sexual relationship with his mother in law, man felt what he did wasn’t right he repented and he encouraged the church to welcome him back into the fellowship with open arms. 3) John the apostle mentioned followers of Jesus left the fellowship on their own free will. I John 2:18-19. |
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Post by Lee on Feb 5, 2024 11:19:49 GMT -5
So in your judgment, they do have that authority. Uniquely so, right? All other christian fellowships aren't legit because they don't have the form?
Again, I submit to you that your conversion experience(s) inordinately bonded you to the workers.
One test of character concerns coherency. People who purport to be custodians of the life affirming gospel shouldn't deny it in their behavior. The workers reticence to deal appropriately with CSA should arouse you to be more circumspect.
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Post by Lee on Feb 5, 2024 11:23:31 GMT -5
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 5, 2024 12:43:17 GMT -5
Stick With God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus patterns as an apostolic Itinerant minister! It SAVES People a lot of headaches, problems, marriage problems due to hardship. I was in the work unmarried, travel from homes to homes every 3 days, have no privacy at all, living a fish bowl life, I know what that life is like. Now, I am married with a son and we face all kinds of challenges in our marriage and raising kids are NOT easy at all. Why? Would God want to put this stress and big burden on married workers with children. He didn’t that was why God and Christ set up unmarried apostolic as they did. If they can’t control their sexual urge leave the work and settled down and having their own families. Follow Jesus example as unmarried Itinerant preacher , it saves workers a lot of headaches and less stressful days and life. Unmarried workers can leave with anyone at a moment of notice NOT so with married workers and children, the single worker method can reach many nations with the gospel faster so, it will usher His 2nd coming sooner! Read Matthew 24:14. In Matthew 7:21-28 Jesus said to people who follow his instructions are like built their faith/work on a Solid Rock foundation it will be rewarded it. To those who refused His Father in heaven instructions all of their good work will burn up in smoke! Why? Because God the Father didn’t approve any of their method and works. They built on the Sand foundation and NOT on the Rock foundation, which ids Christ teachings/instruction. According to the Vaudois/Waldenses apostles from Rome 67-1800 A.D. They were converts of Paul when he was a prisoner in Rome, many of noble from the royal house of Nero the emperor became followers of Jesus, many of them became apostles and they continued Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic unmarried Itinerant preachers of the gospel for 1800 years. Only very few of them were married. Jesus 2x2 New Testament Itinerant unmarried ministry worked for the Vaudois 1800 years. If it ain’t broken don’t fix it. The Faith Mission group and the 2x2 workers are NOT the ONLY ones to follow Jesus 2x2 unmarried and married itinerant method ministry. |
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Post by ForeverFree on Feb 6, 2024 22:40:57 GMT -5
You can't be a worker today and be married. But in Ontario, Canada, you can be a worker today if you're divorced. There are two on the list. |
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Post by Lee on Feb 6, 2024 23:58:30 GMT -5
Stick With God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus patterns as an apostolic Itinerant minister! It SAVES People a lot of headaches, problems, marriage problems due to hardship. I was in the work unmarried, travel from homes to homes every 3 days, have no privacy at all, living a fish bowl life, I know what that life is like. Now, I am married with a son and we face all kinds of challenges in our marriage and raising kids are NOT easy at all. Why? Would God want to put this stress and big burden on married workers with children. He didn’t that was why God and Christ set up unmarried apostolic as they did. If they can’t control their sexual urge leave the work and settled down and having their own families. Follow Jesus example as unmarried Itinerant preacher , it saves workers a lot of headaches and less stressful days and life. Unmarried workers can leave with anyone at a moment of notice NOT so with married workers and children, the single worker method can reach many nations with the gospel faster so, it will usher His 2nd coming sooner! Read Matthew 24:14. In Matthew 7:21-28 Jesus said to people who follow his instructions are like built their faith/work on a Solid Rock foundation it will be rewarded it. To those who refused His Father in heaven instructions all of their good work will burn up in smoke! Why? Because God the Father didn’t approve any of their method and works. They built on the Sand foundation and NOT on the Rock foundation, which ids Christ teachings/instruction. According to the Vaudois/Waldenses apostles from Rome 67-1800 A.D. They were converts of Paul when he was a prisoner in Rome, many of noble from the royal house of Nero the emperor became followers of Jesus, many of them became apostles and they continued Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic unmarried Itinerant preachers of the gospel for 1800 years. Only very few of them were married. Jesus 2x2 New Testament Itinerant unmarried ministry worked for the Vaudois 1800 years. If it ain’t broken don’t fix it. The Faith Mission group and the 2x2 workers are NOT the ONLY ones to follow Jesus 2x2 unmarried and married itinerant method ministry. Worshiping Jesus can not be reduced to a formula, method, or pragmatism. In our day to day, of course we keep habits, but following Jesus is a little more than that! Clearly, forbidding marriage doesn’t work. Likely the Vaudois/Waldenses protected slackers and predators as well. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 7, 2024 0:07:43 GMT -5
Stick With God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Jesus patterns as an apostolic Itinerant minister! It SAVES People a lot of headaches, problems, marriage problems due to hardship. I was in the work unmarried, travel from homes to homes every 3 days, have no privacy at all, living a fish bowl life, I know what that life is like. Now, I am married with a son and we face all kinds of challenges in our marriage and raising kids are NOT easy at all. Why? Would God want to put this stress and big burden on married workers with children. He didn’t that was why God and Christ set up unmarried apostolic as they did. If they can’t control their sexual urge leave the work and settled down and having their own families. Follow Jesus example as unmarried Itinerant preacher , it saves workers a lot of headaches and less stressful days and life. Unmarried workers can leave with anyone at a moment of notice NOT so with married workers and children, the single worker method can reach many nations with the gospel faster so, it will usher His 2nd coming sooner! Read Matthew 24:14. In Matthew 7:21-28 Jesus said to people who follow his instructions are like built their faith/work on a Solid Rock foundation it will be rewarded it. To those who refused His Father in heaven instructions all of their good work will burn up in smoke! Why? Because God the Father didn’t approve any of their method and works. They built on the Sand foundation and NOT on the Rock foundation, which ids Christ teachings/instruction. According to the Vaudois/Waldenses apostles from Rome 67-1800 A.D. They were converts of Paul when he was a prisoner in Rome, many of noble from the royal house of Nero the emperor became followers of Jesus, many of them became apostles and they continued Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic unmarried Itinerant preachers of the gospel for 1800 years. Only very few of them were married. Jesus 2x2 New Testament Itinerant unmarried ministry worked for the Vaudois 1800 years. If it ain’t broken don’t fix it. The Faith Mission group and the 2x2 workers are NOT the ONLY ones to follow Jesus 2x2 unmarried and married itinerant method ministry. Worshiping Jesus isn’t a formula, method, or pragmatism. In our day to day of course we keep habits, but following Jesus is little more that that. Clearly, forbidding marriage doesn’t work. Likely the Vaudois/Waldenses protected slackers and predators as well. God will let the authority deals with the 2x2s CSA abusers in this life, God will deal with them in the judgment day, where they are going to pay a hefty prices for their crimes against the children. Just say the overseer say to you that there is a place for you in the work, and welcome you to be married in the work going from house to house. Would you be willing to have children in the work? |
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Post by Lee on Feb 7, 2024 0:17:03 GMT -5
Today, I’m more inclined to remain single than get married again. Certainly if I were to marry, that would dominate my time and attention. For one, because I’m a low man on the totem pole, but that’s not the only reason.
I do understand why Paul considered marriage to be a distraction from the Lord. But he did not forbid it, not for him, neither the apostleship, officers, newbies, or dinosaurs.
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Post by fixit on Feb 7, 2024 2:59:35 GMT -5
Just say the overseer say to you that there is a place for you in the work, and welcome you to be married in the work going from house to house. Would you be willing to have children in the work? Who says they have to go from house to house? Luke 10:5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house!’ 6 And if a person of peace is there, your peace will rest on that person, but if not, it will return to you. 7 Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. |
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Post by chuck on Feb 7, 2024 5:15:55 GMT -5
Just say the overseer say to you that there is a place for you in the work, and welcome you to be married in the work going from house to house. Would you be willing to have children in the work? Who says they have to go from house to house? Luke 10:5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house!’ 6 And if a person of peace is there, your peace will rest on that person, but if not, it will return to you. 7 Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. I bet you can find reference to some of this in the OT, and knowing something about the customs will also shed more light on it. and It will not have anything to do with 2 western 2x2 workers carrying on the tradition Irvine or whomever invented. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 7, 2024 9:18:21 GMT -5
Just say the overseer say to you that there is a place for you in the work, and welcome you to be married in the work going from house to house. Would you be willing to have children in the work? Who says they have to go from house to house? Luke 10:5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house!’ 6 And if a person of peace is there, your peace will rest on that person, but if not, it will return to you. 7 Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. Before I went in the work 1986-93 I read a book on customs and practices of the Jewish cultures in Jesus days, which help to me to understand Matthew 10 and Luke 10 situation. 2000 years ago, it was a custom for villagers to welcome strangers to stay with them over nights, feed them and so on! Hospitality. Jesus sent the 12 and 70 apostles on their 1st gospel mission without Jesus, proclaiming the Messiah has come as God had promised he would. Jesus told them NOT to go and stay from house to house! Just stay put in one home and sharing the gospel message every day this we they don’t waste time chatting this and that in every home. Their mission was to be a few weeks, Jesus wanted to show the apostles that all of their needs will be provided by strangers, and their own followers. In Matthew 6:25-34 Jesus told the apostles to seek first the kingdom of God then all these things shall be given unto THEM such as foods to eat, clothes to wear, money for their journey, homes to stay for the nights and so on. They 12 and 70 apostles found out Jesus teachings were true! Go by Faith and SELL ALL, carry light because this is going to be Itinerant way of life for TRUE preachers of the gospel lifestyle. Be on the move at a fast speed for the gospel to reach to ALL nations so most countries will have the opportunity in hearing and believing the gospel messsge of their Salvation Jesus SAVES us. Then He can Returns to Rule and Reign on the earth 1000 years. Read Matthew 24:14; Jude 14-15. God and Christ are recruiting/you must be born again! people from this planet, which are made up of people from every nations in every generation to become His children so, they can help them to invite beings which they created in the Universe, who had never heard of Yahweh God their creators! To become apart of this great, awesome Family of God. ~~~ We read in the gospel of Acts the apostles/Paul and history-workers stayed in the homes of their converts, whenever they go on their missions to different places and countries! NOT going from house to house was just for the 12 and 70 apostles 1st mission only! Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry is the preachers/apostles without having homes of their own, and the Church gathering/worship to be held in the homes of believers. How can’t the workers can’t go from house to house to stay? one home can’t take in workers for a long period of time it would be putting too much stress and burden on that family! So, God wants all the believers to take turn to care and provide and meet the workers needs. |
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Post by ForeverFree on Feb 7, 2024 9:32:41 GMT -5
Who says they have to go from house to house? Luke 10:5 Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house!’ 6 And if a person of peace is there, your peace will rest on that person, but if not, it will return to you. 7 Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the laborer deserves to be paid. Do not move about from house to house. I bet you can find reference to some of this in the OT, and knowing something about the customs will also shed more light on it. and It will not have anything to do with 2 western 2x2 workers carrying on the tradition Irvine or whomever invented. Which 2 western 2x2 workers? |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 7, 2024 9:59:08 GMT -5
I bet you can find reference to some of this in the OT, and knowing something about the customs will also shed more light on it. and It will not have anything to do with 2 western 2x2 workers carrying on the tradition Irvine or whomever invented. Which 2 western 2x2 workers? Yes, I would like to KNOW which two Western workers Chuck were talking about also. Let us wait and see for his reply. Which kinds of tradition did William Irvine or the early days workers invented? That is so bad. |
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Post by fixit on Feb 7, 2024 13:52:57 GMT -5
They 12 and 70 apostles found out Jesus teachings were true! Go by Faith and SELL ALL, carry light because this is going to be Itinerant way of life for TRUE preachers of the gospel lifestyle. Which verses say to sell all? |
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Post by chuck on Feb 7, 2024 14:25:43 GMT -5
I bet you can find reference to some of this in the OT, and knowing something about the customs will also shed more light on it. and It will not have anything to do with 2 western 2x2 workers carrying on the tradition Irvine or whomever invented. Which 2 western 2x2 workers? Any 2, it doesn't matter, they all play out the same culture and traditions pf 2x2ism which is founded in western philosophy. |
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