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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 3, 2023 23:46:31 GMT -5
Sorry. I still don't see how you can say it is the general gospel of the workers. I'm sorry for your experience in the 90s. I guess I am confused what the workers thought was false about your belief? The only false thing I have seen you say is what you think the workers generally believe. I have never heard anyone say or even imply the following. "The general doctrine of the workers is that we need to follow Jesus' example and pattern and "be more worthy". Jesus' sacrifice then fills up whatever we are lacking. But there is never any true assurance - we always fall short, are not worthy, need to try harder, be more worthy. This is a gospel of works. The ministry, with the workers' "sacrifice" of themselves is another form of works they insist is mandatory." Jesus' sacrifice fills up what we are lacking? Did you actually hear workers say that? I have never heard that. Our works are not the works of the law. Our works are obedience. We obey God, that proves our faith. Rehab hid the spies, and Abraham offered his son. They obeyed God. This is not about the works of the law that you are quoting. It is about obedience. Matthew 10:37-39 KJV - He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it. We are not trying to be worthy in our own works, we are trying to be worthy of HIM. If we don't take up our cross and follow after Him, we are not worthy of HIM. all He did for us will not avail us if we are not willing to obey Him. We lose our life FOR HIS SAKE, not to prove we don't need Him, and we know that we have no hope without His sacrifice, and the only hope we have is to follow His words and obey Him. I don't live the way I do to try to make other people think I am righteous. No it is to obey Him because I want to be with Him forever. He is all in all to me. We are not obeying the law. There is no reason to continue this conversation if we are just going to go round and round. You like to say what the workers generally speak about. But I wish you could come and listen in. I don't hear that. So that is why it feels like you are judging us by what you experienced years ago. Maybe those workers were wrong. I am very sorry about that, if that is the case, or maybe they misunderstood, or maybe you did. I dont know. I wasn't there to hear what they actually said, the same as you aren't in meetings now to hear what is actually being said. The false beliefs I was speaking about is your thinking you know everything about us. I have not read all of your posts enough to know exactly what you believe. I only have read enough to see you putting us in a box and labeling us. So be it. I want to apologize to you and anyone reading this thread because I am not an angry person, but I let anger guide the first posts on this forum and probably my last. Sorry. Hi Dub, I really appreciate your response and unreservedly accept your apology. I now know many, many Christians who have come out of the fellowship. Their experience is very similar to mine. There seem to be a lot of conditions attached to being "in the right way" as many say of the fellowship of friends and workers. Surely you cannot be completely unaware of the exclusivity of your group, and that - in general - you are conditioned against other churches and other Christians as having "false beliefs". But it isn't just my experience of which I speak. I now have a lifetime's worth of knowledge from investigating, researching, reading the theology and beliefs of the Two-by-Twos. I have been on numerous forums of exmembers and heard numerous accounts of their experiences and what they were taught. When I talk about "salvation by works", I am talking about adding conditions to salvation - manmade rules which we have to obey in order to be saved. All Christians who have left the meetings to attend another church will attest to this; the same will be acknowledged by some (many?) who remain in your group. No, I am not imagining it. No, I am not making it up. We have often said in our meetings that there are two things fundamental to the faith of Jesus: the homelessness of the preacher and the church in the home and only in the home. Whenever we depart from these two fundamentals we have departed from the faith, we have become apostate. We must contend to the very end of the chapter for the homelessness of the preacher and the church in the home and only in the home.
- [Worker] Jack Carroll, Hayden Lake sermon 1932 My hope of salvation is the blood of Christ. But I would like to explain to you what it means. The blood of Christ is the ministry and the church in the home. Without the New Testament ministry you don’t have the blood of Christ which includes the church in the home. The forgiveness of sins is a fringe benefit.
- Leo Stancliffe, worker, 1981 How many of us are really clear on the conditions that must be fulfilled by those who are to have a part in this ministry? God's people demand greater sacrifices from their preachers than any other people in the world. They insist that the preachers must sacrifice all, and they say they believe in no other kind of preachers but those who sacrifice all for the Gospel's sake.
- Jack Carroll, early worker, www.tellingthetruth.info We are God’s chosen people. Our main objectives are to serve the workers, attend gospel meetings and conventions and honour The Truth.
- Los Angeles Special Meeting, March 10, 1985, www.workersect.orgDoctrine
Claim none, and refuse to publish any, other than to state that they believe and follow "the teachings of the New Testament." Doctrinal issues are not emphasized, preferring to stress the importance of their celibate, unsalaried, homeless, itinerant ministry and "meetings in the home." This appears as well to be the sum of the "gospel message" which they proclaim.
Though their doctrine is often presented to outsiders and new members in deceptive, vague and orthodox-sounding terminology, the following represent a brief sampling of the areas of doctrine in which this group differs from most orthodox Christian beliefs:
- They believe that salvation can only be acquired through hearing and "professing" through one of their "Workers".
- They do not believe that Jesus and the Father are one and the same God. Jesus is held to have been a god-like human on whom the "Christ Spirit" settled, and who gave the world a pattern of "perfect ministry." Will sometimes refer to Jesus as "divine," "god the son," or "a god" -- though they do not mean by these that Jesus is viewed by them as being in any sense God, in the manner that the Father is called "God."
- The "Word made flesh" of John 1:1, 14 is held to be the "Workers" themselves.
- Have taught, and most continue to assert, that the group is a direct, historical continuation of the "New Testament Church," having no earthly founder.
- Do not ascribe Godhood to the Holy Spirit, believing "the Spirit" to be an attitude, emotional feeling, or force originating from God.
- They do not believe that the propitiatory sacrifice of Jesus on the cross and the gracious imputation of Christ's righteousness is sufficient to produce salvation, instead holding that one must continue faithfully in their belief system through self-effort, self-denial, and unquestioning submission and obedience to their "shepherds" until death.
- Hold that Jesus died to save those who follow their ministers, and that His "pattern life" and "pattern ministry" were the primary goals of His earthly sojourn.
[workersect.org] Here is a different understanding of the gospel from a "worldly" Christian: But when ‘grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ,’ a long-awaited revolution of the heart began to set religious captives free. Fear-full bondage motivated by guilt was replaced with a fresh motivation to follow Him in truth simply out of deep devotion and delight. Rather than focusing on the accomplishments of the flesh, He spoke of the heart. Instead of demanding that the sinner fulfil a long list of requirements, he emphasized faith, if only the size of a mustard seed. The change spelled freedom, as the Lord himself taught, ‘…you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free’ (John 8:32). Rigid, barren religion was, at last, replaced by a grace-orientated, relationship-liberating grace. His followers loved it. His enemies hated it… and Him. Without a doubt, the earliest grace killers were the Pharisees.
- (The Grace Awakening), Charles R Swindoll In closing, this quote of yours does resonate with me: "I don't live the way I do to try to make other people think I am righteous. No it is to obey Him because I want to be with Him forever. He is all in all to me."Amen. Every true believer would express this thought. We obey God because we love him, and want to keep his commandments. Only being alive in the Spirit can bring about this sort of conviction. Only those who have the free gift of salvation through grace have this kind of true love for their saviour. Which brings us back full circle to what I originally said: Salvation and true faith always leads to works (fruit) in the life of a believer. But works (seeking to obey the law) can never earn salvation. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 3, 2023 23:51:55 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman - What would be expected of me if I wanted to be a member of your church in good standing?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 3, 2023 23:57:32 GMT -5
@dub, sorry, I forgot to answer your question about why the workers wouldn't accept my beliefs.
An excerpt from my book:
I told them how my understanding of the gospel had changed, that it was not our own efforts that merited anything, but the work of Christ. On this basis, I now believed we could have full assurance of salvation. The older worker told me I was arrogant and presumptuous to think this way. I asked him about Paul the apostle, and the total assurance he seemed to have in his faith and eternal destination – why couldn’t we have that same assurance? Surely Paul the apostle was just a mere human being like us. It seemed far beyond their scope to accept that I could compare myself with someone from the Bible. I tried another angle.
‘If you were given the chance to ask Paul why he had this assurance, and on what basis he expected to be let into heaven, what do you think he would say?’ I asked.
The older worker considered this for a moment.
‘He would say, “because I have done my best”’.
‘No, he would not.’ I said. ‘He would say, “because I am trusting in Jesus’ blood”’.
They also denied that my assertion that Christ is God (according to the scriptures), but that is a whole other topic.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 3, 2023 23:59:23 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman - What would be expected of me if I wanted to be a member of your church in good standing? That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. Edit: for first time profession as a Christian, the following words would be used as a public declaration before the church: I profess that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow and serve Him as His disciple. I believe He is the Son of God, sent to redeem the world. I love and trust Him as the One who saves me from sin; I continue to turn from my rebellion against my Lord, and embrace Him as Lord of my life with repentance and joy.
I acknowledge that the teaching of the Old and New Testaments, summarised in the Apostles Creed and our Confessions, and taught in this Christian church, is the true and complete doctrine of salvation.
I accept the gracious promises of God sealed to me in my baptism and affirm my union with Christ and His church which baptism signifies.For those who have already confessed Christian faith in a different church, they are likely to be accepted into membership on the basis of a letter of recommendation from their previous church as being a professing Christian in good standing. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2023 0:02:39 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman - What would be expected of me if I wanted to be a member of your church in good standing? That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. What if I was a pedophile who acknowledged that Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow him. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 0:17:11 GMT -5
That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. What if I was a pedophile who acknowledged that Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow him. A known pedophile would be treated with extreme caution. While we never know someone's true heart and state of repentance, one has to turn from sin and keep turning from sin. A pedophile would have to make themselves fully accountable to our Safe Church Compliance. They would never be permitted in any position of leadership. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2023 0:20:07 GMT -5
What if I was a pedophile who acknowledged that Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow him. A known pedophile would be treated with extreme caution. While we never know someone's true heart and state of repentance, one has to turn from sin and keep turning from sin. A pedophile would have to make themselves fully accountable to our Safe Church Compliance. They would never be permitted in any position of leadership. One has to turn from sin? That sounds like works to me. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 0:28:47 GMT -5
A known pedophile would be treated with extreme caution. While we never know someone's true heart and state of repentance, one has to turn from sin and keep turning from sin. A pedophile would have to make themselves fully accountable to our Safe Church Compliance. They would never be permitted in any position of leadership. One has to turn from sin? That sounds like works to me. True faith and true belief will always result in works (fruit). I've always said that. But that is our response to God in love. It is the work of the Holy Spirit continually convicting us to live a certain way. Those who are not true believers will not show fruit in their lives, and will continue in sin. But belief comes first. From the point of true belief, we are saved. We turn from sin because we are saved. It is the only possible response for true belief. We love because he first loved us. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2023 0:29:18 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman - What would be expected of me if I wanted to be a member of your church in good standing? That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. Edit: for first time profession as a Christian, the following words would be used as a public declaration before the church: I profess that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow and serve Him as His disciple. I believe He is the Son of God, sent to redeem the world. I love and trust Him as the One who saves me from sin; I continue to turn from my rebellion against my Lord, and embrace Him as Lord of my life with repentance and joy.
I acknowledge that the teaching of the Old and New Testaments, summarised in the Apostles Creed and our Confessions, and taught in this Christian church, is the true and complete doctrine of salvation.
I accept the gracious promises of God sealed to me in my baptism and affirm my union with Christ and His church which baptism signifies.For those who have already confessed Christian faith in a different church, they are likely to be accepted into membership on the basis of a letter of recommendation from their previous church as being a professing Christian in good standing. There's a lot of works there. What if my works don't stretch to accepting the holy catholic church as outlined in the apostles creed? Am I then not good enough to be a member in good standing of your church? |
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Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2023 0:31:32 GMT -5
One has to turn from sin? That sounds like works to me. True faith and true belief will always result in works (fruit). I've always said that. But that is our response to God in love. It is the work of the Holy Spirit continually convicting us to live a certain way. Those who are not true believers will not show fruit in their lives, and will continue in sin. But belief comes first. From the point of true belief, we are saved. We turn from sin because we are saved. It is the only possible response for true belief. We love because he first loved us. I hope you'll understand that to me, belief is a kind of works. When Jesus called someone it was simply "follow me" meaning, come along with me. No conditions. No apostles creed. No Jesus is God confession. No statement of faith. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 0:51:23 GMT -5
I could introduce you to hundreds that know their works won't save them and that our only hope is Calvary. Some hymns come to mind... Increase our faith when, night at hand, Death would return our souls to Thee; Grant us the faith that understands Our only hope is CalvaryMy heart would oft discouraged be, But Christ now intercedes for me; So at the throne of grace I seek The peace He to my heart would speak. This world my home could never be, For Christ is coming back for me; Should death sound out the final call, My heart will whisper “Christ is all.”This one has grace in every verse... 236. My Heart O’erflows My heart o’erflows with praise to God alway, For needed grace He gives me day by day, Which is sufficient to enable me To fight the battle, gain the victory. How restful is my heart when this I know: According to my need, He’ll grace bestow. Midst fiery trials and when tempted sore, In tender care He points me to that door– The entrance of the quiet, secret place, Where I can wait before the throne of grace. While waiting there I’m cleansed from sin and fear, My strength renewed, the way made plain and clear. As in this present, evil world I see So much that would defile and hinder me, It surely causes me to cleave the more Unto the Lord, and have His grace in store, That in all things I may keep pure and clean, Still live for things this world has never seen. I long to live so that my life will show How much it means such boundless grace to know, That every weary, fearful soul I meet, Who day by day is suffering from defeat, Might through his tears and sorrows see in me What he could share through grace so rich and free. The One who knows the trials of each hour, Knows flesh would fail, how much I need His power; What rest it brings my heart to hear Him say, “I’ll give you grace, no power my hand can stay.” What rest it brings my heart to hear Him say, “I’ll give you grace, no power my hand can stay.” Quote from a worker: Grace is the ability God gives us to do His will [workersect.org]Yes, grace is a much used word in the Two-by-Twos. Sometimes used correctly, sometimes not. A more orthodox meaning would be the unmerited favour of God. Hymns in the Old & New book are also hit and miss. Some came from Christians outside the group. Some had words changed to fit the group's theology. Some were written in the group's earlier, non-exclusive days. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 0:54:16 GMT -5
That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. Edit: for first time profession as a Christian, the following words would be used as a public declaration before the church: I profess that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow and serve Him as His disciple. I believe He is the Son of God, sent to redeem the world. I love and trust Him as the One who saves me from sin; I continue to turn from my rebellion against my Lord, and embrace Him as Lord of my life with repentance and joy.
I acknowledge that the teaching of the Old and New Testaments, summarised in the Apostles Creed and our Confessions, and taught in this Christian church, is the true and complete doctrine of salvation.
I accept the gracious promises of God sealed to me in my baptism and affirm my union with Christ and His church which baptism signifies.For those who have already confessed Christian faith in a different church, they are likely to be accepted into membership on the basis of a letter of recommendation from their previous church as being a professing Christian in good standing. There's a lot of works there. What if my works don't stretch to accepting the holy catholic church as outlined in the apostles creed? Am I then not good enough to be a member in good standing of your church? "holy catholic church" as outlined in the apostles creed means all true believers of all times and places. The truth CHURCH as the body of true believers, not the Roman Catholic church as we now know it. "catholic" means "all-embracing" as in "embracing all true believers". PS - I'm not a huge fan of the Apostles' Creed. I prefer the Nicene Creed. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 1:02:07 GMT -5
True faith and true belief will always result in works (fruit). I've always said that. But that is our response to God in love. It is the work of the Holy Spirit continually convicting us to live a certain way. Those who are not true believers will not show fruit in their lives, and will continue in sin. But belief comes first. From the point of true belief, we are saved. We turn from sin because we are saved. It is the only possible response for true belief. We love because he first loved us. I hope you'll understand that to me, belief is a kind of works. When Jesus called someone it was simply "follow me" meaning, come along with me. No conditions. No apostles creed. No Jesus is God confession. No statement of faith. Yes, I understand you. Even belief if not possible unless granted by God. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.
So even our belief is a gift from God. We [my church] use our statement of belief purely to define what it is we are actually believing in. It is necessary? No, of course not. And the Apostles Creed it not scripture, it is simply the earliest summary of Christian faith used by the early church. Scripture says that If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. That is all that is needed. |
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Post by Grant on Jun 4, 2023 1:03:54 GMT -5
That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. Edit: for first time profession as a Christian, the following words would be used as a public declaration before the church: I profess that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow and serve Him as His disciple. I believe He is the Son of God, sent to redeem the world. I love and trust Him as the One who saves me from sin; I continue to turn from my rebellion against my Lord, and embrace Him as Lord of my life with repentance and joy.
I acknowledge that the teaching of the Old and New Testaments, summarised in the Apostles Creed and our Confessions, and taught in this Christian church, is the true and complete doctrine of salvation.
I accept the gracious promises of God sealed to me in my baptism and affirm my union with Christ and His church which baptism signifies.For those who have already confessed Christian faith in a different church, they are likely to be accepted into membership on the basis of a letter of recommendation from their previous church as being a professing Christian in good standing. There's a lot of works there. What if my works don't stretch to accepting the holy catholic church as outlined in the apostles creed? Am I then not good enough to be a member in good standing of your church? The example the workers preached was that they have to follow the ministry as stated in Matthew 10 and that one can only be saved by believing through them. They are the true servants because of how they go out. Accepting Jesus was not enough, it was Jesus plus them. That is mans works. I heard workers scoff at churches for believing in Grace. They would say it gave a reason to sin although Paul said it did not. I found that many in meetings understood grace differently to what it means in the Bible. The workers is very much a works based gospel of obeying their way of doing things. Rather than what Christ had done they focus on what they do. Good works do not save. Fruit is proof of Jesus in us. Workers put down the good works that churches do while making their own works necessary for salvation. Follow them is to follow Jesus. It should be follow Jesus not men. Churches do good works but not in order to obtain salvation. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2023 1:11:16 GMT -5
I'm not accountable for everything workers have said and done any more than you are accountable for everything churches have said and done.
We work out our own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
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Post by chuck on Jun 4, 2023 1:23:19 GMT -5
That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. What if I was a pedophile who acknowledged that Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow him. That's technically impossible. |
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Post by chuck on Jun 4, 2023 1:41:43 GMT -5
True faith and true belief will always result in works (fruit). I've always said that. But that is our response to God in love. It is the work of the Holy Spirit continually convicting us to live a certain way. Those who are not true believers will not show fruit in their lives, and will continue in sin. But belief comes first. From the point of true belief, we are saved. We turn from sin because we are saved. It is the only possible response for true belief. We love because he first loved us. I hope you'll understand that to me, belief is a kind of works. When Jesus called someone it was simply "follow me" meaning, come along with me. No conditions. No apostles creed. No Jesus is God confession. No statement of faith. This is why its important to understand Yom Kippur. The reason it said "you shall do no work" was exactly what you are elduding to fixit, they didn't have to believe in creeds or statements of faith or make confessions ect ect ect....they were just forgiven. In todays language "work" basically is religion. |
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Post by chuck on Jun 4, 2023 2:13:00 GMT -5
I hope you'll understand that to me, belief is a kind of works. When Jesus called someone it was simply "follow me" meaning, come along with me. No conditions. No apostles creed. No Jesus is God confession. No statement of faith. Yes, I understand you. Even belief if not possible unless granted by God. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Everyone the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never drive away.
So even our belief is a gift from God. We [my church] use our statement of belief purely to define what it is we are actually believing in. It is necessary? No, of course not. And the Apostles Creed it not scripture, it is simply the earliest summary of Christian faith used by the early church. Scripture says that If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. That is all that is needed. Belief is a action, not an acceptance in your mind about supernatural happenings. Same with declaring with your mouth. If you speak and act in line with the gracious compassionate slow to anger and abounding in love and forgiveness character it saves you from selfishness.... Declaring with you mouth also needs to be read in light of what was going on with Caeser and the way he ruled...its a deliberate contradiction to defy the roman leader of the day. Its a literary method of explaining there is a fundamentally different way of looking at the world other than the established one under Caeser which was rule by force, and Jesus was rule by serving.... Alot of language used about Jesus was taken from propaganda about Caeser, so it is not a promise that if you utter those words you get something after you die but rather an acceptance of Jesus way of viewing the world over Caeser's and expressed in a inflammatory way by using slogans the imperial cult have used about Caeser. It was not meant for us but we can use it to change how we look at the world today. |
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Post by neighbour on Jun 4, 2023 6:44:42 GMT -5
I'm reluctant to get into arguments about doctrine, but here goes:
There are clearly two types of "works" talked about in the New Testament.
(1) The works of the Law, which are a form, or formula
(2) The works of belief/faith/grace/the Spirit, which are inspired
The Children of Israel had the formula written out in minute detail and especially the Pharisees followed it to perfection but rejected their own Messiah as they did not know him.
Noah, Abraham, etc didn't have a formula for their situation in life, but knew and obeyed God so their works were considered righteous.
The prophets in the Old Testment had the written formula as well, but it was their God-inspired works that made them prophets. It is the same today, there are Christians with the fruit of the Spirit regardless of a form they may adhere to.
When Jesus died and the veil of the temple was torn in half, it wasn't to replace one legal formula with an other, with the intent to replace Levites with Apostles in a new hierarchical priesthood. It wasn't to make meetings in a home (nor, frankly any building deemed a "house of God") a new form of temple worship.
Rather, all believers are members of a royal priesthood, with direct access to God through the intercession of Jesus our high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Our own bodies are the temple of God; we are to worship him there, in both thought and deed. The kingdom is neither here nor there, it is in our midst. "Where two or three are met together" applies anywhere, any time. In a house, in a vehicle, in a restaurant, outside, you name it.
Our good works are to be inspired fruit of the spirit, not actions according to a formula. If that is not the case, the cross of Christ is made of no effect.
Unfortunately many (most?) of the friends and workers have this backwards: it is regularly preached that good works (particularly in the context of charity towards the poor) are the dead works of lost souls merely to be seen of men, but the work of belief in the formula of an authoritative ministry, of standing up in meeting to "profess", and meeting in the home is the way to salvation. As such, it is actually uncomfortable/looked down on for the friends and workers to outwardly do good works before the world (this is crazy, it goes against Jesus' direct teachings) as it's assumed good works are always done to be seen of men.
Thankfully there are some that have true inspiration. Those two men who removed that pedophile worker did not follow an established formula, rather performed a good work; the manifestation of faith.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 9:22:14 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman - What would be expected of me if I wanted to be a member of your church in good standing? That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. Edit: for first time profession as a Christian, the following words would be used as a public declaration before the church: I profess that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow and serve Him as His disciple. I believe He is the Son of God, sent to redeem the world. I love and trust Him as the One who saves me from sin; I continue to turn from my rebellion against my Lord, and embrace Him as Lord of my life with repentance and joy.
I acknowledge that the teaching of the Old and New Testaments, summarised in the Apostles Creed and our Confessions, and taught in this Christian church, is the true and complete doctrine of salvation.
I accept the gracious promises of God sealed to me in my baptism and affirm my union with Christ and His church which baptism signifies.For those who have already confessed Christian faith in a different church, they are likely to be accepted into membership on the basis of a letter of recommendation from their previous church as being a professing Christian in good standing. Sounds like quite a man-made mantra to me. John 3:16 is very to the point and short. Definitely a letter of recommendation is, to move from one denom. to another. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 18:02:13 GMT -5
That you acknowledge that Christ is your Lord and Saviour, and you want to follow him. That is pretty much verbatim what we publically profess to be accepted as a Christian. Edit: for first time profession as a Christian, the following words would be used as a public declaration before the church: I profess that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Saviour, and I want to follow and serve Him as His disciple. I believe He is the Son of God, sent to redeem the world. I love and trust Him as the One who saves me from sin; I continue to turn from my rebellion against my Lord, and embrace Him as Lord of my life with repentance and joy.
I acknowledge that the teaching of the Old and New Testaments, summarised in the Apostles Creed and our Confessions, and taught in this Christian church, is the true and complete doctrine of salvation.
I accept the gracious promises of God sealed to me in my baptism and affirm my union with Christ and His church which baptism signifies.For those who have already confessed Christian faith in a different church, they are likely to be accepted into membership on the basis of a letter of recommendation from their previous church as being a professing Christian in good standing. Sounds like quite a man-made mantra to me. John 3:16 is very to the point and short. Definitely a letter of recommendation is, to move from one denom. to another. Of course it's a man-made, but not a mantra. A mantra is repeated frequently. This is a one-off statement of confession and faith, made once in a lifetime. But the purpose is to be a public confession of faith in Christ. If others have professed their faith in another church using other words, we accept that confession. John 3:16 is a great statement, but more of a broad objective truth than a personal confession of faith. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
It falls short of a personal statement of faith (ie. "I profess; I believe..."). The Two-by-Twos couldn't use it anyway, as it also falls short of having to believe in their manmade ministry and meetings in the home. One interesting point - the Two-by-Twos never publically confess their faith in a formal way. They simply stand to their feet in a meeting. I never really thought about it until I found out more about what other churches do. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 4, 2023 18:10:24 GMT -5
I'm reluctant to get into arguments about doctrine, but here goes: There are clearly two types of "works" talked about in the New Testament. (1) The works of the Law, which are a form, or formula(2) The works of belief/faith/grace/the Spirit, which are inspiredThe Children of Israel had the formula written out in minute detail and especially the Pharisees followed it to perfection but rejected their own Messiah as they did not know him. Noah, Abraham, etc didn't have a formula for their situation in life, but knew and obeyed God so their works were considered righteous. The prophets in the Old Testment had the written formula as well, but it was their God-inspired works that made them prophets. It is the same today, there are Christians with the fruit of the Spirit regardless of a form they may adhere to. When Jesus died and the veil of the temple was torn in half, it wasn't to replace one legal formula with an other, with the intent to replace Levites with Apostles in a new hierarchical priesthood. It wasn't to make meetings in a home (nor, frankly any building deemed a "house of God") a new form of temple worship. Rather, all believers are members of a royal priesthood, with direct access to God through the intercession of Jesus our high priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. Our own bodies are the temple of God; we are to worship him there, in both thought and deed. The kingdom is neither here nor there, it is in our midst. "Where two or three are met together" applies anywhere, any time. In a house, in a vehicle, in a restaurant, outside, you name it. Our good works are to be inspired fruit of the spirit, not actions according to a formula. If that is not the case, the cross of Christ is made of no effect. Unfortunately many (most?) of the friends and workers have this backwards: it is regularly preached that good works (particularly in the context of charity towards the poor) are the dead works of lost souls merely to be seen of men, but the work of belief in the formula of an authoritative ministry, of standing up in meeting to "profess", and meeting in the home is the way to salvation. As such, it is actually uncomfortable/looked down on for the friends and workers to outwardly do good works before the world (this is crazy, it goes against Jesus' direct teachings) as it's assumed good works are always done to be seen of men. Thankfully there are some that have true inspiration. Those two men who removed that pedophile worker did not follow an established formula, rather performed a good work; the manifestation of faith. A nice summary. Thanks. What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?
If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about--but not before God.
What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation.
However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.
David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him." [Romans 4] For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. [1 Tim 2:5-6] |
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Post by fixit on Jun 5, 2023 5:12:35 GMT -5
One interesting point - the Two-by-Twos never publically confess their faith in a formal way. They simply stand to their feet in a meeting. I never really thought about it until I found out more about what other churches do. They confess their faith frequently in fellowship meetings. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2023 6:32:56 GMT -5
One interesting point - the Two-by-Twos never publically confess their faith in a formal way. They simply stand to their feet in a meeting. I never really thought about it until I found out more about what other churches do. They confess their faith frequently in fellowship meetings. Yes, yes they do. Their faith is very tied up in how many fellowship meetings they attend. |
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Post by fixit on Jun 5, 2023 17:25:18 GMT -5
They confess their faith frequently in fellowship meetings. Yes, yes they do. Their faith is very tied up in how many fellowship meetings they attend. The same could be said for any church. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2023 19:09:17 GMT -5
Yes, yes they do. Their faith is very tied up in how many fellowship meetings they attend. The same could be said for any church. I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 19:23:33 GMT -5
The same could be said for any church. I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised edition of that book you wrote... |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on Jun 5, 2023 19:44:27 GMT -5
I think you'll find a particular emphasis even unto salvation regarding attendance at every fellowship meeting possible. The judgement is real for those who miss fellowship meetings for any reason. This is one of the recognised "works" necessary for salvation in the two-by-two system. You've been out way too long... Or in the wrong part of the world... In the PNW since around 1976 I've never heard a peep about attendance, other than "we missed you" or "be with those that can't make it wherever they are". You probably should come out with a revised addition of that book you wrote...
Other stories are far more sobering and heartbreaking. Another relative recounts a well-known story from his grandfather’s generation. A younger son in the family was complaining of severe stomach pain, but it was meeting time. The family, including the young son, piled into the car and headed off for the meeting. On arrival, this boy was in such a bad state that he could not go in. He was left in the car alone while the rest of his family attended. More than an hour later they came back to find him dead – his appendix had burst.
It takes stories like this to appreciate the heights to which meetings are elevated - it is the meetings themselves that are worshipped, rather than the God of the Bible in whose name they meet.
[Cult to Christ - Elizabeth Coleman]Revised edition? Why, to try to whitewash history? |
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