nathan2
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Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 7, 2024 19:45:34 GMT -5
I understood from an earlier post of Nate's that he now believes that the 2x2 model of going from house to house is actually taken from the Faith Mission (where he claimed that Wm Irvine "got his ideas from"): Now I'm confused  The Faith Mission had Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry; going from house to house but had Sunday morning meetings but without Christ’t Passover/Eucharists/emblems. The 2x2 copied the Faith Mission Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and Sunday morning but the 2x2s add the emblems and baptism for their converts. By the way, the Faith Mission got Matthew 10 and Luke 10 from Jesus teachings and so the 2x2s. That is gospel in the nut shell. |
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 7, 2024 19:51:21 GMT -5
The Faith Mission had Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry; going from house to house but had Sunday morning meetings but without Christ’s Passover/Eucharists/emblems. The 2x2 copied the Faith Mission Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and Sunday morning but the 2x2s add the emblems and baptism for their converts. Thanks, now it's crystal clear  (so from 1897, thanks to Mr Irvine, things got back on track!) I believe the early days workers got it more correctly than WI did. William Irvine was baptized by the workers after he joined the 2x2s in 12/1900. Chinesewhisper wrote it was her great uncle a 2x2 worker who baptized William Irvine, because the FM didn’t baptized their converts. WI was converted to join the FM from 1893-12/1900. |
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nathan2
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Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 7, 2024 20:20:08 GMT -5
The Faith Mission had Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry; going from house to house but had Sunday morning meetings but without Christ’t Passover/Eucharists/emblems. The 2x2 copied the Faith Mission Jesus 2x2 apostolic Itinerant ministry and Sunday morning but the 2x2s add the emblems and baptism for their converts. You make it up as you go Nathan. The workers did not have Sunday morning meetings until several years later. It was their intention that everyone who joined them went out preaching but for many this was not possible so a few years later they started fellowship meetings. Where did you get it from that the Faith Mission had Sunday morning meetings. They were based on the premise which the workers copied, which was that everyone goes preaching. They were part of mainstream Churches. I would guess they would have prayer meetings, many Christians have prayer meetings. Does not make them a church. The Faith Missions purpose was not to be a church but to work with the churches that were there. Where does it say the Faith Mission workers stayed in converts homes? They would have gone house to house inviting people to hear them, that's a lot different from staying in their homes. If the FM workers didn’t stay in their converts homes. So, Tell me where did the 2x2 FM workers stay at nights or foods to eat after their preaching days are done. |
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Post by Mary on Feb 7, 2024 20:50:35 GMT -5
You make it up as you go Nathan. The workers did not have Sunday morning meetings until several years later. It was their intention that everyone who joined them went out preaching but for many this was not possible so a few years later they started fellowship meetings. Where did you get it from that the Faith Mission had Sunday morning meetings. They were based on the premise which the workers copied, which was that everyone goes preaching. They were part of mainstream Churches. I would guess they would have prayer meetings, many Christians have prayer meetings. Does not make them a church. The Faith Missions purpose was not to be a church but to work with the churches that were there. Where does it say the Faith Mission workers stayed in converts homes? They would have gone house to house inviting people to hear them, that's a lot different from staying in their homes. The FM had Sunday union prayer meeting. What do you think they do in those Sunday meeting? The 2x2s started their Sunday morning worship gathering with emblem After 1900ish. So, tell me where do you think the FM workers stay at nights? Motel?[ br] Where do the workers eat foods breakfast, lunch or dinners? At the Restuarant? Where do the FM take showers for the evening? In the river. Often places like the Faith Mission and Bible colleges have accommodation attached to them. They could easily rent a place together as well. They could board with people but i'm sure they would pay something rather than just freeload on people like some others we know. Living with converts is not the only way to live. Stop making things up that you have no proof of. The Faith Mission still has prayer meetings, nothing to do with Sunday morning fellowship meetings. They encourage meeting with local churches. faithmission.orgIt is all over the UK. People have their own homes. |
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Post by Mary on Feb 7, 2024 22:45:39 GMT -5
Often places like the Faith Mission and Bible colleges have accommodation attached to them. They could easily rent a place together as well. They could board with people but i'm sure they would pay something rather than just freeload on people like some others we know. Living with converts is not the only way to live. Stop making things up that you have no proof of. The Faith Mission still has prayer meetings, nothing to do with Sunday morning fellowship meetings. They encourage meeting with local churches. faithmission.orgIt is all over the UK. People have their own homes. Mountain, send me the Faith Mission book in the early day! I also have Cornelius’ book and there is a section in there about the FM 2x2 ministry how they live. So, I have a good idea how they operate, you know. Shame on you! Calling Jesus, the apostles and workers freeloaders on people. You were a 2x2 but you hardly understand how it works! You speak like a heathen. You need to read I Cor. 9: 6-14 Paul wrote Jesus, him and the 2x2 workers are NOT FREE LOADERS! but it’s God will and plan for Jesus and apostles and workers to be homeless, and the friends to support and help them all the can. The Godhead is way much smarter than you, me and all the humans on earth put together. God’s way is best, his method is way much better than all us ours methods put together, his thoughts are much wiser and higher than ours, He is from above and we are from below. I should have said the workers living free off their converts, would have been better wording. You have a habit of making things up. Quote from the Faith Mission where they say they lived with their converts. What we've seen is that they did not make converts for themselves but worked for the established churches. I don't believe some of what Cornelius wrote. He was a 2x2 and biased his book towards the 2x2s. I was a 3rd generation 2x2 so know how it works. You only came in the last 40 years and spent a few years not attending that time either. Obviously the workers living with people is not God's way. We see the fruits of that as it puts children and women at risk of abuse. You also say the workers had a revelation but are now saying it came from the Faith Mission. Irvine claimed it was his idea based on Matthew 10. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Feb 8, 2024 13:41:55 GMT -5
The Faith Mission preachers used tents and then portable halls. Thy stayed in them. They were paid a salary from which they could purchase food and pay any bills. The early 2x2 workers also used tents and portable halls. The only difference was they were not paid a salary.
One of the portable halls was still in use at a convention in the late 90's.
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Post by snow on Feb 8, 2024 17:28:34 GMT -5
The only reason they got so many people in the early days was because of the lie they told that they have no earthly founder and go back to the shores of Galilee. This won't work anymore with the internet. The sexual abuse is not the only reason people are not interestedin the workers. Lack of interest started years before the sexual abuse was acknowledged. Honest people are leaving and want no part of it. Only families are in it. What a bunch of baloney! About honest people are leaving. Wait, 3-5 years the 2x2 will thrive again after the CSA is under control after they eliminate the 2x2 abusers from the ministry and fellowship. Look what happened in 1980s the exes books written against the 2x2; after awhile things go as usual. In 2000s many exes websites pop ups everywhere after awhile things go as usual…. The last 2 years with DeanB fiasco, CSA deals Went crazy! Ballistic… after 3 years things go back to normal as usual, they learn and fix their mistakes, then the 2x2s continue on to the end time. Satan just take the weak, the wounded in hearts and minds, the astray along the border one by one, but the strong will lead the rest to continue on and go forward, no looking back. Remember Lot’s wife? She looked back and turned into a pillar of salt. Nathan I don't think you can even compare CSA with reading a book about the 2x2 origins. There is absolutely no comparison. People are looking at what the people they respected and loved were doing and learning that they were telling CSA survivors to not report it, forgive and forget and if they didn't then they ruined their reputation and either kicked them out or drove them out because they had turned the rest of the friends against them. Then they moved the abuser to a new area without any warning to the friends and the process started all over again with new targets. That is not something any moral human being would do. We now know that the head overseers did exactly that. Over and Over and Over. The people leaving now, and there are many, will never come back. I predict that when this is over there won't be enough friends to 'support' the number of workers that exist right now. |
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Post by snow on Feb 8, 2024 18:19:48 GMT -5
Nathan I don't think you can even compare CSA with reading a book about the 2x2 origins. There is absolutely no comparison. People are looking at what the people they respected and loved were doing and learning that they were telling CSA survivors to not report it, forgive and forget and if they didn't then they ruined their reputation and either kicked them out or drove them out because they had turned the rest of the friends against them. Then they moved the abuser to a new area without any warning to the friends and the process started all over again with new targets. That is not something any moral human being would do. We now know that the head overseers did exactly that. Over and Over and Over. The people leaving now, and there are many, will never come back. I predict that when this is over there won't be enough friends to 'support' the number of workers that exist right now. Im astounded by Nathan's comment that things "went back to usual", implying there was nothing wrong then it went wrong then it went back to nothing wrong. It started off with a power hungry womaniser using scripture as a sword......it has never been right, good people have been conned right from the start, and its only got worse. Usual is by fact "corrupt", the recipts are evident enough, unusual is every time the reciepts are just exposed. It is becoming obvious in Australia proper people are leaving because they cannot live with knowing "the usual". That comment may cop some hate but I see people leaving because they cannot support a ministry that covers things up. Workers are also leaving because they cannot live with the coverup and improper behaviour. The ones left are those happy with the status quo and support a corrupt ministry. Now obviously there are still proper people in the ministry and amongst the friends, lets see how long they last as this show is corrupt to the core and good people will not last in it. Edit, there ate some outliers who cannot leave, it has been there whole life, some quite old and it woud be like starting life again on deaths door, it would literally kill them. Which is sad and highlights the evil at the heart of this. Absolutely there are good workers and good people still in the fellowship. But they are getting to be the minority these days. I think that many of the good people that are hanging in there are also not supporting the workers financially or offering their homes at the moment. Some probably are, but from what I hear on the forums of those still in they have withdrawn financial support at the moment. It's not a bad system of how to meet together. It's just sad that it became so corrupt at the top and that is now jeopardizing the way the friends have lived. It's a flawed system having them stay in people's homes I believe and I think it's very evident why it's not a good thing. If they could have a house in their area for the workers when they come to their area, that would help I think. I am so glad that my parents aren't living to see what is happening now. My mother professed at 18 and lived to be 96. How do you deal with what's happening when your whole life has been wrapped up in a system that has kept itself separate for the most part? I am so sorry for those people. |
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Post by Admin on Feb 8, 2024 21:56:13 GMT -5
I'm astounded by Nathan's comment that things "went back to usual", implying there was nothing wrong then it went wrong then it went back to nothing wrong. It started off with a power hungry womaniser using scripture as a sword......it has never been right, good people have been conned right from the start, and its only got worse. Usual is by fact "corrupt", the receipts are evident enough, unusual is every time the receipts are just exposed. It is becoming obvious in Australia proper people are leaving because they cannot live with knowing "the usual". That comment may cop some hate but I see people leaving because they cannot support a ministry that covers things up. Workers are also leaving because they cannot live with the coverup and improper behaviour. The ones left are those happy with the status quo and support a corrupt ministry. Now obviously there are still proper people in the ministry and amongst the friends, lets see how long they last as this show is corrupt to the core and good people will not last in it. Edit, there ate some outliers who cannot leave, it has been there whole life, some quite old and it would be like starting life again on deaths door, it would literally kill them. Which is sad and highlights the evil at the heart of this. Well I suspect in Nathan's 'world', I'm also a "goner" along with chuck. I don't have respect left for what the 2x2 system of religion has sunk to, nor what it has produced (all the forms of abuse that have come to light). I totally agree with chuck that if the aim of those 'in charge' is simply to lie low and hope that eventually, all will go "back to usual", that's just tragic. I do also see many good people, including good workers (generally, powerless in the organization sense), and some good aspects of the form of the church and fellowship. But in my world/beliefs, anybody whose faith is in the form as being the "one right way", then they are the real "goners". I also agree with chuck that Jesus lived as a Hebrew, under the 'old covenant' of God with the Israelites. In fact, Jesus fulfilled perfectly the old covenant law. Anybody who is "following Jesus" for their salvation (as meant in the biblical sense) will be trying as hard as they can to do as Jesus did, fulfil perfectly the old law in every detail and aspect. Good luck in that!! But the orthodox Christian belief is that the new covenant involves a superior ministry (of Christ), is "established on better promises," and is, in fact, "superior to the old covenant". I think (if I understand chuck correctly?) that we agree that the ideal principle for living is to live by and show to others in our daily living, the character of Christ (for me, i.e. of God). Where I think we differ is how we manage this. For me, it's not by appealing to our 'better natures' (kind-of like, digging deep into our humanity and natural sense of decency so as to live by the higher principles that Jesus lived by). Rather (acknowledging if we do that there is a spiritual realm as well as our natural universe), it's about "Christ in you", having the spirit of Christ over-ruling my natural human nature (with all the power of God that that entails), that is, not "having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof". |
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Post by Mary on Feb 9, 2024 13:21:15 GMT -5
Trying me to understand here why you’re so partial to the workers. Obviously it has to do in part with your conversion experience. There’s an objectivity that comes from forsaking the world and following Jesus…. If, it’s truly HS led. If, God is truly calling someone. Most of the workers I have known or known of don’t pray the Lord’s Prayer, thy kingdom come, thy will be done. They have a history of equating ascetism with righteousness, which is hypocritical. They’re interested in recycling people into an exercise of the flesh, a desire to be alleviated from the crisis of the tribulation. The crisis of the tribulation is the manifestation of satan’s wicked reign over earth. That reign consists of people, and their hearts. I had been a worker, I have a little understanding the important reasons why God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit sent the 2x2s apostolic Itinerant ministry and the Sunday morning the way they sent them. I know how it works and the way they do things so, I share from their point of views…. About the Lord’s that was an sample prayer that the believers try to pray along that line NOT Verbatim words for words because that is repetitious vain prayer, the heart is not in it. A person can pray the Lord’s Prayer with his mouth but his mind is somewhere else. God wants our prayers from the hearts to Him. There are many good, god fearing workers and friends out there want to do what is Right before God, don’t throw the baby out with the dirty water, please. Don't sing the Hymns Nathan, they are vain repetition, and your heart is not in it. You can sing it with your mouth but your mind is somewhere else |
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2024 13:24:52 GMT -5
Absolutely there are good workers and good people still in the fellowship. But they are getting to be the minority these days. I think that many of the good people that are hanging in there are also not supporting the workers financially or offering their homes at the moment. Some probably are, but from what I hear on the forums of those still in they have withdrawn financial support at the moment. It's not a bad system of how to meet together. It's just sad that it became so corrupt at the top and that is now jeopardizing the way the friends have lived. It's a flawed system having them stay in people's homes I believe and I think it's very evident why it's not a good thing. If they could have a house in their area for the workers when they come to their area, that would help I think. I am so glad that my parents aren't living to see what is happening now. My mother professed at 18 and lived to be 96. How do you deal with what's happening when your whole life has been wrapped up in a system that has kept itself separate for the most part? I am so sorry for those people. I believe it is good that some of the friends are NOT supporting the ministry right now! To wake up the ministry, the overseers world wide, the senior workers, all the workers to take CSA seriously, and eliminate CSA abusers from the ministry and fellowship. Enough is Enough! Once the CSA is eliminated from the ministry and most of the friends are aware about CSA, they will teach their children to be on the alert and themselves also. Like Paul wrote in Romans 10 How beautiful are the feet of them who bring glad tithing of the gospel into people lives and homes. Like I said recently, I had MANY wonderful, awesome memories with the workers before I was in the work! I had greater memories of being in the friends homes, getting to KNOW them and their families. They consider me as another member of their family. I will cherish many of those fond memories beyond this life into the next life. My concern is that if people are still saying it's just us exes stirring the pot that the workers will be able to continue on doing what they've done for decades. My concern is the children still in danger and possibly still being abused because their parents refuse to believe the workers would do such a thing. I know they exist because I have read people's posts on other forums that literally said that you should not judge/sin to protect the children. I was horrified that anyone could think like that. If they have kids social services need to remove them from their home because there is no way they would protect their kids if they were being abused. Part of it is because of the teaching that only 2x2's go to heaven. They are terrified of going against the workers teachings because they've seen what happens to some that have. Excommunication in 2x2 lingo is literally sending someone to hell. That's a pretty big motivator to turn a blind eye and 'business as usual'. |
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Post by snow on Feb 9, 2024 14:26:35 GMT -5
My concern is that if people are still saying it's just us exes stirring the pot that the workers will be able to continue on doing what they've done for decades. My concern is the children still in danger and possibly still being abused because their parents refuse to believe the workers would do such a thing. I know they exist because I have read people's posts on other forums that literally said that you should not judge/sin to protect the children. I was horrified that anyone could think like that. If they have kids social services need to remove them from their home because there is no way they would protect their kids if they were being abused. Part of it is because of the teaching that only 2x2's go to heaven. They are terrified of going against the workers teachings because they've seen what happens to some that have. Excommunication in 2x2 lingo is literally sending someone to hell. That's a pretty big motivator to turn a blind eye and 'business as usual'. Many of the friends and some workers have little clues of CSA and the horrible consequences of the victims had to deal with the horrible events in their minds for the rest of their lives, they need to educate themselves on CSA and their victims PTSD. As I said once the 2x2 eliminate the CSA abusers from the ministry and fellowship then the friends feel much safer. Of course that would make them safer. But how does that actually happen in the real world when overseers are still allowing predators in meetings and at conventions. Still supporting them? They continue to allow this to happen and are making it very difficult for the friends and workers that are against it, sometimes just telling them to leave. Or they start rumors about them and make it very difficult to stay in the group because the friends turn against them if the workers tell them to. |
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Post by fixit on Feb 9, 2024 18:15:00 GMT -5
Don't sing the Hymns Nathan, they are vain repetition True. It's hypocritical to criticise repeated prayers while we sing repeated prayers in hymn form. |
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Post by mountain on Feb 17, 2024 16:18:07 GMT -5
Missing a meeting was equated to missing a meal. Do it too often and you weaken and starve to death (spiritually). This meant every meeting was all important and attendance was essential for your spiritual health. Years later I found out the rest of the world had less meals than we did in the UK. On a Sunday we had PM meetings as well as AM meetings, along with midweek meeting. The rest of the world only had Sunday AM and midweek meeting to contend with. I guess we in the UK were fat spiritually? Haha… Over eating is BAD for your health! You get fat and lazy, without exercise, you can die. You have to have the time to practice put what you heard in the meeting, how can you test anything,?if you continually be at the meetings? You must be lights and salt in this dark world, you can’t hole up in the closet/meetings all the time, you know. You have to pay the bills and family to care for too. If only the workers had this wisdom instead of enforcing spiritual gluttony! |
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nathan2
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Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Feb 17, 2024 18:52:44 GMT -5
Don't sing the Hymns Nathan, they are vain repetition True. It's hypocritical to criticise repeated prayers while we sing repeated prayers in hymn form. So, tell me…. How many times have you say the Lord’s Prayer in Sunday morning meetings? |
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Post by Pragmatic on Feb 17, 2024 22:58:34 GMT -5
Don't sing the Hymns Nathan, they are vain repetition True. It's hypocritical to criticise repeated prayers while we sing repeated prayers in hymn form. And I might add, hypocritical to critiise the use of Prayer Books in churches, but have the Grace's written up in the Convention sheds. There is also no mention of Jesus singing Grace, or suggesting that people should. And more mention of him eating where there is no mention of giving thanks, than there is of doing so. In saying this, I have no issue with people wanting to do so, but for me, it is not a salvation requirement. Jesus tended to do it, in a public setting, and I quite like that. |
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Post by ForeverFree on Feb 19, 2024 0:49:35 GMT -5
True. It's hypocritical to criticise repeated prayers while we sing repeated prayers in hymn form. And I might add, hypocritical to critiise the use of Prayer Books in churches, but have the Grace's written up in the Convention sheds. There is also no mention of Jesus singing Grace, or suggesting that people should. And more mention of him eating where there is no mention of giving thanks, than there is of doing so. In saying this, I have no issue with people wanting to do so, but for me, it is not a salvation requirement. Jesus tended to do it, in a public setting, and I quite like that. Growing up in my area, you were not asked to say grace at the table until you professed. And if you stopped professing, you were no longer asked to say grace. And if professing people are having a meal at a former professing or born and raised non-professing home, it is expected that you would ask a professing person to say grace. It seems that only professing people know how to communicate appreciation and thankfulness to God. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Feb 19, 2024 2:12:01 GMT -5
And I might add, hypocritical to critiise the use of Prayer Books in churches, but have the Grace's written up in the Convention sheds. There is also no mention of Jesus singing Grace, or suggesting that people should. And more mention of him eating where there is no mention of giving thanks, than there is of doing so. In saying this, I have no issue with people wanting to do so, but for me, it is not a salvation requirement. Jesus tended to do it, in a public setting, and I quite like that. Growing up in my area, you were not asked to say grace at the table until you professed. And if you stopped professing, you were no longer asked to say grace. And if professing people are having a meal at a former professing or born and raised non-professing home, it is expected that you would ask a professing person to say grace. It seems that only professing people know how to communicate appreciation and thankfulness to God. And I know from witnessing it, professing people would not say Amen to a Grace spoken by a non-professing person, or an ex that they once would have said to. |
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Post by snow on Feb 19, 2024 17:51:57 GMT -5
And I might add, hypocritical to critiise the use of Prayer Books in churches, but have the Grace's written up in the Convention sheds. There is also no mention of Jesus singing Grace, or suggesting that people should. And more mention of him eating where there is no mention of giving thanks, than there is of doing so. In saying this, I have no issue with people wanting to do so, but for me, it is not a salvation requirement. Jesus tended to do it, in a public setting, and I quite like that. Growing up in my area, you were not asked to say grace at the table until you professed. And if you stopped professing, you were no longer asked to say grace. And if professing people are having a meal at a former professing or born and raised non-professing home, it is expected that you would ask a professing person to say grace. It seems that only professing people know how to communicate appreciation and thankfulness to God. I had forgotten about that. But yes, that's how it was for me when I quit professing. I was good with that |
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