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Post by alwaysbekind on May 17, 2023 3:34:41 GMT -5
Hi, I’m new here and have been meandering around the site. My short time on here has me scratching my head. I have a genuine curiosity: Why are bitter exes on here and so active? It seems that the majority of them run this site. (To be clear, I do not believe all exes are bitter. Maybe even most arn’t, this is directed at the butter ones) Not all of course, but definitely majority of those that post. (I have no problem with any of that. If I don’t like what I see, I can leave.) It seems obvious that a lot of you haven’t been apart of the truth in many decades. As one still very happy in the truth (I know, a lot of you hate me now) I just wonder what keeps you coming back on here? It takes a lot of time and mental/emotional bandwidth to be active on here, and it only seems to be a lot of negativity, and no really problem solving or encouraging talks. I guess if I left an organization upset or just in general, I’d fill my time and thoughts toward family or wood working or golf or volunteering or relaxing, etc. Life’s so short. Seems a little bit like almost like a dog returning to its vomit? Wouldn’t you want a clean break? The following are not accusations just my thoughts while reading a lot of your comments. This is why I’m asking you to explain… “Why do they come back on here to feed on the negativity? Why are they so angry towards the truth, did they ever get what it’s truly about? Why are they so eager for the truth/ministry/meetings to shut down? Is it because deep down God has put something in their hearts a long time ago that they cannot run from and when they slow down and are honest with themselves, they know what’s right? and that shutting the truth down and tryin to show they are a “fraud” would help justify not listening to that voice anymore?” I’m not criticizing, I’m just curious as to why. I have a soft spot for those that arnt in our fellowship anymore, and I have good friends and family that have left. It’s just Kinda fascinating to me, from a psychology standpoint. I’m happy to discuss anything with those that arnt mean spirited. Happy to hear your thoughts.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 17, 2023 4:43:08 GMT -5
I think anyone by now would realise that some changes are required for the church to remain relevant and not disappear.
The doctrine of exclusivity may have worked in the early 1900's, but doesn't anymore. Similarly for a number of other issues.
I for one am happy to foment change from within, as it is a good system, and I am happy with my Sunday Morning Meeting.
There are elders and workers on here too, and you may not have picked them yet.
One thing I am very conscious of, and that is that TMB does not become bread, it is merely a forum.
Recent events also help to create contacts where relevant, and maybe some victims of CSA/SA can be helped and more prevented, or a worker who has been the victim of a poor oversight decision can be helped.
In brief, these are my motives.
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Post by jonathan on May 17, 2023 6:19:26 GMT -5
A warm welcome here to you.
With all the hypocrisy and cover-ups, which only I am sure some have come to light already, what do you see as truth?
Do you refer to the 2x2 system as truth, or do you refer to "The truth shall set you free" John 8:32?
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Post by neighbour on May 17, 2023 6:37:52 GMT -5
Spend 15+ years lurking on here like I have and you will see many "bitter exes" have been permanently damaged by the hubris and power of others in "the way", and the similarity of their experiences is eye-opening. This place provides a community for some, therapy for others, an outlet for more, and a resource and different perspective for the "innies" like me.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2023 6:46:10 GMT -5
Hi alwaysbekind , A good question. I left in the early 90s and suffered PTSD as a result of my association with the Two-by-Two group. As the internet took hold, I found other survivors who had suffered the same thing, and realised my experience was not unique. We formed into groups and then forums to support, encourage, debrief each other over wasted years in a cult. Then others continued to join the ex-forums and they were broken, traumatised, abused, hurting. We exmembers hung around and continued to support and mentor the continual stream of exes. That stream has turned from a trickle to a full flood in the past few years, expecially the past few months. Most exmembers felt they were silenced by the system. Nothing could be questioned. Workers had to be obeyed. Abuse had to be hidden. The Perfect Way could not be tainted with true accounts of horrible things happening behind the scenes. Speaking the truth about anything - even the history of the group - got you into serious trouble and even excommunicated. Many were devastated when they discovered the truth about the group's origins - founded by William Irvine in the early 1900s. Even more devastated when they discovered there had been a concerted and premeditated effort to conceal this truth from members. When we tried to raise this issue, we were shut down, belittled, gaslighted, even threatened. We're all still here because we're either hurting, or supporting those who are hurting. We're here because we can finally shout the truth about the truth from the rooftops and the workers no longer have power over us. We're here because we now have a voice after years of forced silence. We're all still here because many - sometimes most - of our loved ones and families are still in bondage to the group, so we can't make a clean separation. We're here because our families/relatives/loved ones have been conditioned against outsiders but we still can't just desert them. I have now read hundreds - if not thousands - of accounts of those who have left. Some are truly horrific. Everytime I think I can't see a worse story, a worse one appears. You won't see many of these stories, because they're being shared in private forums away from the public eye. Some are shared on here, but the derision and gaslighting and denial often doesn't make it worth it, so most stay on the private forums and show each other care and support and love. What you're seeing here is the tip of the iceberg of exes and their stories. Much more is going on behind the scenes. Does this answer your question even a little? I hope this answer gives you some appreciation of the background. Thanks for asking. PS - I only come on here every few years, with long breaks inbetween. The rest of the time I am indeed living a very happy life far away from all this, and with true freedom in Christ.
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Post by Umfolozi on May 17, 2023 8:06:00 GMT -5
I can't add more, well answered.
I didn't enjoy the way you asked "allwaysbekind" but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
Enjoy God's blessings big and small💕
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2023 8:29:59 GMT -5
I can't add more, well answered. I didn't enjoy the way you asked "allwaysbekind" but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Enjoy God's blessings big and small💕 I've tried to re-word it so it's not miscontrued. Thanks.
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Post by Umfolozi on May 17, 2023 8:35:45 GMT -5
I can't add more, well answered. I didn't enjoy the way you asked "allwaysbekind" but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. Enjoy God's blessings big and small💕 I've tried to re-word it so it's not miscontrued. Thanks. Oops, it's me, apologies, I meant I didn't enjoy the way "allwaysbekind" asked his or her question but I will give "allwaysbekind" the benefit of the doubt. Oh my me and the English language🤣
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 17, 2023 9:38:48 GMT -5
Welcome allwaysbekind Yes a great question I can only speak for myself I am not bitter , just totally broken Short history . I am a survivor of CSA/SA from age 2-13 . Then again SA in 2016 and 2018 . I am a severe mental health case . I am 62 years old . I was excommunicated at 13 . I have been in jail , the psychiatric ward (longest time 3 months) certified by 3 doctors for them to be legally able to hold me at least 90 days . I became an alcoholic , quit in 2000 and entered treatment . I have tried to kill myself more than once . So I grew up in the school of hard knocks I self harm This forum allows me to be unhinged about it , yes I piss people off . I share because I don’t want anyone to live a life like mine . I share honesty about mental health and what it can do to a soul and body as I self harm ……………. I want to make sure NO MORE CHILDREN OR ANYONE TO ENDURE A LIFE LIKE MINE ! It sucks , and I want the babes to be safe . Bottom line ! I also get to help I will never recover from this , it is my reality ! However from 2005-2019 I looked after my parents which included taking them to Wednesday and Sunday meetings and special meetings and 4 days of convention I was not professing obviously . But it was my honor to make sure my parents enjoyed the fellowship . Nothing like seeing an offender at convention . My life was permanently ruined by age 13 . If I was bitter I wouldn’t have stepped up to serve my parents no matter what . People on here put up with my mental health issues . I have people who care about me on here .
If I save even 1 child I will be happy to do so . As this situation blows up more and more , it causes extreme anxiety and bad mental health issues . But I do serve a purpose ! A example of CRAZY
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Post by deepdeep on May 17, 2023 9:44:45 GMT -5
Thanks to umfolozi and elzabethcoleman for the background here. This is causing more thoughts to bubble up.
Trying to get an accurate wide angle view is hard here. It looks like those who suffered a form of authoritarian religious trauma can anecdotally go story for story with a "believer"and not get very close to any agreement about what the 2x2 system is or produces. Both sides make claims that seem to invalidate the other sides stated lived experience. If you were the subject of abuse.... no story of grace or forgiveness or joy will ever ameliorate what you experienced. And the person who finds meaning, fulfillment, community, and strength in the "way" or "truth" is going to resist discarding something they value.
Obviously, a "burn it down" past member will probably never see eye to eye with an unexamined zealot.... But I get the sense that those would represent the small, vocal extremes.
Are there broad points of agreement between past members and current members that both would agree is characteristic of the movement?
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Post by verna on May 17, 2023 10:31:26 GMT -5
Spend 15+ years lurking on here like I have and you will see many "bitter exes" have been permanently damaged by the hubris and power of others in "the way", and the similarity of their experiences is eye-opening. This place provides a community for some, therapy for others, an outlet for more, and a resource and different perspective for the "innies" like me. Thanks so much for saying this. It means a lot. This is the type of healing that is required. I’m so glad some are understanding the damage that has been done. It is deep.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 10:35:56 GMT -5
Hi, I’m new here and have been meandering around the site. My short time on here has me scratching my head. I have a genuine curiosity: Why are bitter exes on here and so active? It seems that the majority of them run this site. Not all of course, but definitely majority of those that post. (I have no problem with any of that. If I don’t like what I see, I can leave.) It seems obvious that a lot of you haven’t been apart of the truth in many decades. As one still very happy in the truth (I know, a lot of you hate me now) I just wonder what keeps you coming back on here? It takes a lot of time and mental/emotional bandwidth to be active on here, and it only seems to be a lot of negativity, and no really problem solving or encouraging talks. I guess if I left an organization upset or just in general, I’d fill my time and thoughts toward family or wood working or golf or volunteering or relaxing, etc. Life’s so short. Seems a little bit like almost like a dog returning to its vomit? Wouldn’t you want a clean break? The following are not accusations just my thoughts while reading a lot of your comments. This is why I’m asking you to explain… “Why do they come back on here to feed on the negativity? Why are they so angry towards the truth, did they ever get what it’s truly about? Why are they so eager for the truth/ministry/meetings to shut down? Is it because deep down God has put something in their hearts a long time ago that they cannot run from and when they slow down and are honest with themselves, they know what’s right? and that shutting the truth down and tryin to show they are a “fraud” would help justify not listening to that voice anymore?” I’m not criticizing, I’m just curious as to why. I have a soft spot for those that arnt in our fellowship anymore, and I have good friends and family that have left. It’s just Kinda fascinating to me, from a psychology standpoint. I’m happy to discuss anything with those that arnt mean spirited. Happy to hear your thoughts. Well said, and observed by others before, one caveat though from me, find out more about said CSA/SA abuse before opening the old pie hole...
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Post by verna on May 17, 2023 10:41:15 GMT -5
Thanks to umfolozi and elzabethcoleman for the background here. This is causing more thoughts to bubble up. Trying to get an accurate wide angle view is hard here. It looks like those who suffered a form of authoritarian religious trauma can anecdotally go story for story with a "believer"and not get very close to any agreement about what the 2x2 system is or produces. Both sides make claims that seem to invalidate the other sides stated lived experience. If you were the subject of abuse.... no story of grace or forgiveness or joy will ever ameliorate what you experienced. And the person who finds meaning, fulfillment, community, and strength in the "way" or "truth" is going to resist discarding something they value. Obviously, a "burn it down" past member will probably never see eye to eye with an unexamined zealot.... But I get the sense that those would represent the small, vocal extremes. Are there broad points of agreement between past members and current members that both would agree is characteristic of the movement? Haha. I’m always inclined to use the line “love the sinner but hate the sin” back at them. That’s what came to mind when I read your post. WE SHARE A LOVE FOR THE PEOPLE!
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2023 10:42:10 GMT -5
Thanks to umfolozi and elzabethcoleman for the background here. This is causing more thoughts to bubble up. Trying to get an accurate wide angle view is hard here. It looks like those who suffered a form of authoritarian religious trauma can anecdotally go story for story with a "believer"and not get very close to any agreement about what the 2x2 system is or produces. Both sides make claims that seem to invalidate the other sides stated lived experience. If you were the subject of abuse.... no story of grace or forgiveness or joy will ever ameliorate what you experienced. And the person who finds meaning, fulfillment, community, and strength in the "way" or "truth" is going to resist discarding something they value. Obviously, a "burn it down" past member will probably never see eye to eye with an unexamined zealot.... But I get the sense that those would represent the small, vocal extremes. Are there broad points of agreement between past members and current members that both would agree is characteristic of the movement? Maybe one point, the ending of CSA/SA...
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 11:24:07 GMT -5
Amen to all said. I have looked in at this for years. It is only with recent events coinciding with my need to speak up about my childhood experiences, lack of true family love that created the emptiness that lead to my susceptibility to a group that seemed to offer everything I needed. Super vulnerable. Then it was just one more traumatic experience. I am not bitter. My eyes are open. I speak up for therapy. It’s empowering to speak your truth cliche as it sounds. It helps me sort through thoughts and feelings long bottled up and maybe I could help someone else just a little. I too love my life, but I am always attached to what happened to get me here. I am the product of my experience bad and good and in between. We can leave this group in some respects, but it leaves something so indelible, always to affect us. And, I still care about this little group. I wish it could be healthier and safe for children and needy and vulnerable and those who give all to it. They deserve more. I am glad you are in a little pocket of good within the group but you may not be aware of those not experiencing good right in your midst.
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 11:32:20 GMT -5
And also, I am here because I don’t do social media so this is it for me. 🙂
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 12:11:10 GMT -5
And also I don’t like the use of the word “bitter.” That is a term commonly used by workers and friends and it is dismissive and says what you are feeling is not real and just is just your problem. It is another way of erasing you, silencing you, diminishing what you experienced. It is deflection. It is a common strategy. I am sure you don’t realize so no blame to you at all.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 17, 2023 15:39:12 GMT -5
And also I don’t like the use of the word “bitter.” That is a term commonly used by workers and friends and it is dismissive and says what you are feeling is not real and just is just your problem. It is another way of erasing you, silencing you, diminishing what you experienced. It is deflection. It is a common strategy. I am sure you don’t realize so no blame to you at all. Ditto that. It is possible that some might be, but in general if people have felt deceived about what has been a big lifetime and emotional investment for many years, they will feel various degrees of hurt, anger. That depends on the makeup of the person, and their personal experience.
If they need or wish to vent, on here, or require counseling, then so be it, if it helps.
It is on us inside the church to build bridges where none exist, and to strengthen those that do exist, to these people. Not because we are right, and they are wrong,(which isn't the right perspective, by the way) but because it is the right thing to do. They are our fellow men and women on the journey through life.
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Post by internationalstudies on May 17, 2023 15:42:52 GMT -5
Hi alwaysbekind , Elizabeth has stated her experience and perspective. There are other perspectives beside hers! My comments in bold: A good question.
I left in the early 90s and suffered PTSD as a result of my association with the Two-by-Two group. As the internet took hold, I found other survivors who had suffered the same thing, and realised my experience was not unique. We formed into groups and then forums to support, encourage, debrief each other over wasted years in a cult. MANY ex members (and also professionals who work in the field of cultism)do not consider our church a cult. But cult is a strong term that suits Elizabeth's aims and agenda. I know MANY ex members (people who personally do not wish to be part of us) who defend us when people like Elizabeth Coleman makes statements like "wasted years in cult" Their experience is different to that of Elizabeth and the ones she surrounds herself with and associates with.Most exmembers felt they were silenced by the system. Nothing could be questioned. Workers had to be obeyed. Abuse had to be hidden. The Perfect Way could not be tainted with true accounts of horrible things happening behind the scenes. Speaking the truth about anything - even the history of the group - got you into serious trouble and even excommunicated. This also does not reflect the experience of MANY ex members. I could gather in a short time many who give witness to an experience different to that of Elizabeth and those she associates with. Those who freely acknowledge that God and Jesus is found in this group, but they don't want that for themselves. Many were devastated when they discovered the truth about the group's origins - founded by William Irvine in the early 1900s. Even more devastated when they discovered there had been a concerted and premeditated effort to conceal this truth from members. When we tried to raise this issue, we were shut down, belittled, gaslighted, even threatened. Elizabeth's perspective is ' a group founded by William Irvine'. My experience is perspective is that William Irvine was prominent, very prominent amongst a group of men and women who were disillusioned and empty in their spiritual experience in churches of 100+ years ago (including the denomination of which Elizabeth is now joined). So they stepped out and stepped apart and sought to get back to the roots of the NT church and ministry and follow that. They did and within a short time it flourished. Workers spread out around the world from the British Isles. There were people ready and empty and waiting for them. People came and found Christ, they hadn't found him in the churches they left.
William Irvine? He was out of it by 1914, within two decades, 110 years ago. We're all still here because we're either hurting, or supporting those who are hurting. We're here because we can finally shout the truth about the truth from the rooftops and the workers no longer have power over us. We're here because we now have a voice after years of forced silence. True statement Elizabeth you still hurting. It doesn't appear that what you have found in lutherism has healed you yet? Elizabeth 'forced silence' ? You don't seem to have suffered too much of that over the last decade or two?! We're all still here because many - sometimes most - of our loved ones and families are still in bondage to the group, so we can't make a clean separation. We're here because our families/relatives/loved ones have been conditioned against outsiders but we still can't just desert them. Bondage Your perspective. Perhaps you should check on their perspective? People who as the Sam Jones hymn says:
I’m satisfied in Jesus now,My restless soul is calm and still; My weary heart has found its home, My joy it is to do His will. Then sing, my soul, in sweetest song, My captive spirit now is free; At His behest I follow on—His, only His, henceforth to be.
Oh! fellowship supremely sweet, Oh! matchless love so pure, divine; My soul has found a sure retreat— The lowly Jesus now is mine.
Mock, deride and dismiss the real and living experience of your loved ones and families and thousands of others if you wish!🤷♂️ I have now read hundreds - if not thousands - of accounts of those who have left. Some are truly horrific. Everytime I think I can't see a worse story, a worse one appears. You won't see many of these stories, because they're being shared in private forums away from the public eye. Some are shared on here, but the derision and gaslighting and denial often doesn't make it worth it, so most stay on the private forums and show each other care and support and love. Yes and also the thousands who tell the story of have found Christ and are happy satisfied members of the church. They don't seek or need what you have found in your present church. For them it would be stepping away from Christ to do that. What you're seeing here is the tip of the iceberg of exes and their stories. Much more is going on behind the scenes.
Does this answer your question even a little? I hope this answer gives you some appreciation of the background. Thanks for asking.
PS - I only come on here every few years, with long breaks inbetween. The rest of the time I am indeed living a very happy life far away from all this, and with true freedom in Christ. The record of your posting on this forum is difficult to reconcile with your statement. "I only come on here every few years, with long breaks inbetween."
I am making ONE post on this thread and I have made it. This one post will attract howls of protest and disagreement from the hard core who respond to posts I make. I will observe them reveal themselves again! fixit, pragmatic, curly, chuck, mrbolina, Bowden etc etc
I won't be getting into futile responding to their posting. If anyone wishes to communicate with me regarding this post I make they can do so by pm. I will respond there. I have not found it possible to have much in the way of meaningful dialogue on a public thread. I also acknowledge and am glad for the present cleansing that is happening regarding in our church regarding CSA. A number of workers have been removed or left the work. Measures. policies and practices that other churches have already implemented are now being implemented within us.
I also acknowledge that some ex friends have good reason to feel hurt because of their experiences at the hands of workers or friends. 'Workers and friends aren't always saints'. Then there are other friends who have also had good reason to because of their experiences at the hands of workers or friends...and they have felt hurt and disappointment. But because of their experience and relationship with God. For then the answer was NOT to leave the church. Like Joseph in the Bible their experience has been Gen 49:22 “Joseph is a fruitful vine, a fruitful vine near a spring, whose branches climb over a wall. With bitterness archers attacked him; they shot at him with hostility. But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed limber, because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob, because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,"
They did what was right for them. Elizabeth you did what was right for you!😀
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2023 16:09:46 GMT -5
Just for some context, internationalstudies is a current worker and regular guest on here under mutiple names. He keeps changing his identity, but his spirit of love and care always shines through and is obvious to spot. He spends a lot of energy hating me. His only purpose is to mock, deride, deny and gaslight the experiences of exmembers. You'll get the picture.
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Post by internationalstudies on May 17, 2023 16:43:30 GMT -5
Just for some context, internationalstudies is a current worker and regular guest on here under mutiple names. He keeps changing his identity, but his spirit of love and care always shines through and is obvious to spot. He spends a lot of energy hating me. His only purpose is to mock, deride, deny and gaslight the experiences of exmembers. You'll get the picture. I am breaking my statement of only making one post only to state that: Yes I am a current worker and like a number of posters here have posted under several different poster names over the years. Fixit is one of them. Roscoe/Ross Bowden another. Anyway Elizabeth despite your attempt at deflection... The facts and reality of my post remain. Continue to post and seek to malign me further and distract from the 'home truths' I have stated if you wish Elizabeth? There will doubtless soon be other posts seeking to do that from other posters! Don't worry I'm well accustomed to the 'Wild West world' of TMB! Don't lose much sleep about the mud flung!
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 16:54:08 GMT -5
And also I don’t like the use of the word “bitter.” That is a term commonly used by workers and friends and it is dismissive and says what you are feeling is not real and just is just your problem. It is another way of erasing you, silencing you, diminishing what you experienced. It is deflection. It is a common strategy. I am sure you don’t realize so no blame to you at all. Ditto that. It is possible that some might be, but in general if people have felt deceived about what has been a big lifetime and emotional investment for many years, they will feel various degrees of hurt, anger. That depends on the makeup of the person, and their personal experience.
If they need or wish to vent, on here, or require counseling, then so be it, if it helps.
It is on us inside the church to build bridges where none exist, and to strengthen those that do exist, to these people. Not because we are right, and they are wrong,(which isn't the right perspective, by the way) but because it is the right thing to do. They are our fellow men and women on the journey through life.
Sorry if I seem to be overly fussy about word choice but I don’t like “vent” either. Read def for this slang word below. It is also a loaded sort of derogatory term. Like we are just children lacking control of our emotions and just need a place to spout. It is condescending. Now let’s look at the worker spouting in bold print. I can’t even read it. It looks like he’s yelling. Maybe if he chose italics, or some other font. to express a negative emotion in a forceful and often unfair way: Please don't shout - there's no need to vent your frustration/anger/rage/spleen on me. I didn't mean to upset anyone, I just needed to vent.
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Post by getreal on May 17, 2023 17:23:56 GMT -5
The slang term “vent” comes from an old French word that means “wind.” So to vent is to spew air. There’s nothing there. Its just wind. Empty. Now I understand why I hate the term and it makes me uncomfortable. Venting, by the way as therapy is no longer recognized as a good thing. It makes one feel worse. Telling calmly and clearly your truth is not wind. It is not venting. It can be therapeutic but mostly it is a force to be reckoned with by those who do not want to hear. 🙂
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Post by snow on May 17, 2023 17:37:57 GMT -5
Hi, I’m new here and have been meandering around the site. My short time on here has me scratching my head. I have a genuine curiosity: Why are bitter exes on here and so active? It seems that the majority of them run this site. Not all of course, but definitely majority of those that post. (I have no problem with any of that. If I don’t like what I see, I can leave.) It seems obvious that a lot of you haven’t been apart of the truth in many decades. As one still very happy in the truth (I know, a lot of you hate me now) I just wonder what keeps you coming back on here? It takes a lot of time and mental/emotional bandwidth to be active on here, and it only seems to be a lot of negativity, and no really problem solving or encouraging talks. I guess if I left an organization upset or just in general, I’d fill my time and thoughts toward family or wood working or golf or volunteering or relaxing, etc. Life’s so short. Seems a little bit like almost like a dog returning to its vomit? Wouldn’t you want a clean break? The following are not accusations just my thoughts while reading a lot of your comments. This is why I’m asking you to explain… “Why do they come back on here to feed on the negativity? Why are they so angry towards the truth, did they ever get what it’s truly about? Why are they so eager for the truth/ministry/meetings to shut down? Is it because deep down God has put something in their hearts a long time ago that they cannot run from and when they slow down and are honest with themselves, they know what’s right? and that shutting the truth down and tryin to show they are a “fraud” would help justify not listening to that voice anymore?” I’m not criticizing, I’m just curious as to why. I have a soft spot for those that arnt in our fellowship anymore, and I have good friends and family that have left. It’s just Kinda fascinating to me, from a psychology standpoint. I’m happy to discuss anything with those that arnt mean spirited. Happy to hear your thoughts. Well I can only speak for myself. I'm not a bitter ex and I don't hate the friends. In fact I still keep in touch with some of the friends. Just because I don't share a belief system does not mean I hate them and can't still be in touch and care about them. You are being lied to if you think that those who leave hate you. Many here have still got friends and family that still profess that they love and are concerned about. What is happening right now is impacting everyone. Those who are still professing and those who have left. CSA is not something to just shove under the rug and that's been happening in your group. If you don't think that's a reason for concern I'm not sure what you might think might be. Welcome though. We are a very diverse group that do manage to get along. Sure we have difference of opinions but I have a very soft spot for all I've been posting with on here since 2010. They are like family.
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Post by deepdeep on May 17, 2023 17:41:21 GMT -5
And also I don’t like the use of the word “bitter.” That is a term commonly used by workers and friends and it is dismissive and says what you are feeling is not real and just is just your problem. It is another way of erasing you, silencing you, diminishing what you experienced. It is deflection. It is a common strategy. I am sure you don’t realize so no blame to you at all. Ditto that. It is possible that some might be, but in general if people have felt deceived about what has been a big lifetime and emotional investment for many years, they will feel various degrees of hurt, anger. That depends on the makeup of the person, and their personal experience.
If they need or wish to vent, on here, or require counseling, then so be it, if it helps.
It is on us inside the church to build bridges where none exist, and to strengthen those that do exist, to these people. Not because we are right, and they are wrong,(which isn't the right perspective, by the way) but because it is the right thing to do. They are our fellow men and women on the journey through life.
This line between cultists and escapees(to use elizabethcolemans terminology) or between believers and those who have "lost out" (to use internationalstudies terminology) seems to go right between families and friends. Please forgive my small attempt at humor in the grossly inaccurate characterizations . My guess as to why people remain so interested would be different for every person. I myself don't fit the profile of "ex" in the 2x2 sense but I definitely was raised in a fashion that I bet most 2x2 folks would find pretty familiar and have sort of educated my way into a different life. A lot of my upbringing seems old-fashioned and traditional but I overall had a good young life. I did not experience religious trauma but know people that have. Maybe the better question is, what is the difference in experience between the religiously traumatized and the happily adherent? They seem to often be swimming in the exact same pool....but yet, vastly different outcomes....even in the absence of an abusive incident.
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Post by Umfolozi on May 17, 2023 17:54:54 GMT -5
I am on here and other websites ect.because I find hidden truths, I don't want to think all is well and it's not, I feel strongly about abuse against children and vulnerable individuals, aswell as allowing sexual immoral worker's in the ministry.Even though I am not a member I will stand up for the above.I take offense that you broad brush us all as "bitter" although some have all the right to be bitter, but hopefully with God's help they will not remain bitter, but its a long process of which I know nothing.
allwaysbekind- you do sound like someone I know, are your initials T.H ?
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 17, 2023 17:56:54 GMT -5
I am on here and other websites ect.because I find hidden truths, I don't want to think all is well and it's not, I feel strongly about abuse against children and vulnerable individuals, aswell as allowing sexual immoral worker's in the ministry.Even though I am not a member I will stand up for the above.I take offense that you broad brush us all as "bitter" although some have all the right to be bitter, but hopefully with God's help they will not remain bitter, but its a long process of which I know nothing. allwaysbekind- you do sound like someone I know, are your initials T.H ? awesomeness !
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Post by snow on May 17, 2023 18:13:38 GMT -5
Ditto that. It is possible that some might be, but in general if people have felt deceived about what has been a big lifetime and emotional investment for many years, they will feel various degrees of hurt, anger. That depends on the makeup of the person, and their personal experience. If they need or wish to vent, on here, or require counseling, then so be it, if it helps. It is on us inside the church to build bridges where none exist, and to strengthen those that do exist, to these people. Not because we are right, and they are wrong,(which isn't the right perspective, by the way) but because it is the right thing to do. They are our fellow men and women on the journey through life.
This line between cultists and escapees(to use elizabethcolemans terminology) or between believers and those who have "lost out" (to use internationalstudies terminology) seems to go right between families and friends. Please forgive my small attempt at humor in the grossly inaccurate characterizations . My guess as to why people remain so interested would be different for every person. I myself don't fit the profile of "ex" in the 2x2 sense but I definitely was raised in a fashion that I bet most 2x2 folks would find pretty familiar and have sort of educated my way into a different life. A lot of my upbringing seems old-fashioned and traditional but I overall had a good young life. I did not experience religious trauma but know people that have. Maybe the better question is, what is the difference in experience between the religiously traumatized and the happily adherent? They seem to often be swimming in the exact same pool....but yet, vastly different outcomes....even in the absence of an abusive incident. I think even the 'religiously traumatized and the happily adherent' is too small a sampling. I left because I couldn't worship the Christian God and remain true myself and growing up in the group was restrictive so yes some trauma that way, but overall I just left and never looked back. Wrote my final exam in grade 12 and left home and never again attended a meeting. And, that was that. Other's here are totally struggling with the exclusivity mindset of the group. They are the ones that have been told that if you leave the group you're going to hell. That's pretty brutal and causes a lot of stress and grief until you can get past that. Then there are those that were physically abused and sexually abused. That's a whole different level. It's complex. No one in this group or those who have left are unaffected by it. Those still in know they can't leave because to do so would mean a lost eternity. That's holding people spiritually hostage and allows for a lot of blackmail when someone does speak out about the abuses in the group.
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