|
Post by chuck on May 21, 2023 21:14:59 GMT -5
To start with I am going to pull you up on the use of this phrase "the truth", that's extremely hubris of you, the real truth doesn't have CSA swept under the rug and lurking in the corners amongst other improper proclivities......... Throughout my lifetime to date any organisations that I have voluntarily been involved in collectively doesn't rate in child abuse compared to "the truth" as you call it...... I agree, it makes me cringe when people call it the truth. The JWs and other cults do the same. It's a trait among these group. All claiming to be the truth. Jesus is the truth not a ministry. Another is the way, same thing. I agree although you need to be careful as it sounds like you are doing the same with a Hebrew man......remember the Gospels were written long after Jesus, its highly unlikely Jesus went around saying things like "I am the truth" ect, it's more likely the writer of John wrote it that way.....
|
|
|
Post by learner on May 22, 2023 4:36:48 GMT -5
We're all still here because many - sometimes most - of our loved ones and families are still in bondage to the group, so we can't make a clean separation. We're here because our families/relatives/loved ones have been conditioned against outsiders but we still can't just desert them. Why do I occasionally read this? I am an ex (~ 5yrs). I have hardly been watching it but since all this has come out in the last 2 months, I have been watching more closely. Half of my family, including my spouse still attend. He was told about DB and a couple of the overseers standing down by someone else attending - I had already seen it but hadn’t told him because I didn’t want to discourage his faith. He supports me in my journey of deconstructing my faith and wants me to keep being an active christian. So I do it for him too. BUT, for him and other members of the family, he doesn’t want to change because it is what he has always done, he likes his Sunday meeting, and is happy to overlook everything else. I’ve asked him, it is because he doesn’t like change is why he wont do anything about it and it hasn’t affected him. It suits him, he likes the fellowship. If he was a woman, he might be madder about it considering he would have put up with all the silly customs imposed on women while terrible things were going on in the ministry that have been ignored, - hypocrisy. A double standard. - I suspect he would have tossed it in the first time he had to wear a skirt while boating. He doesn’t think it is the only way, and respects other churches and christians. I hope that he sees through it so we can attend a church together again, but I will not be the one telling him all these awful events. I support his hold on faith in God - even if I think it might be in the wrong format. This is the reason for why I am still here and have a hard time breaking away- see Elizabethcoleman’s quote. It is very hard for me to make a clean break as every family gathering is full of ‘friendlies’ and the talk is related to the sub-culture of the two-by-twos. My mother is always going on about how amazing the workers are because … they made themselves a cup of tea when visiting her. Or something. I got to the point where I had to be honest with myself, and as I deconstructed my faith I felt the doctrine was too internally focused, with not enough outreach. Also, I love the verses about salvation and grace - and as i informed myself, the book, ‘What’s so amazing about grace’ by Phillip Yancey was pivotal, I started this deconstruction process. Furthermore, I was over the patriarchy and lack of transparency. I haven’t changed my mind in the last 5 years. I also felt a liberty when I left. Still do. I think about in Romans 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” I want to ask you who are fully paid up members, …‘how’s that going for you now’? Nothing wrong with the beautiful gospel story - just big issues with the delivery/ministry of it. Would you be able to unequivocally ask someone along to a gospel meeting right now with the current state of affairs? I will not be telling my adult children who do not attend and never professed about the scandals. Why, because I am embarrassed that I was part of it for so long, and that many people they love are still tied up in it. Perhaps, there is still a bit of me that has been conditioned to not put the dirty laundry out for all to see. Hard to drop the ingrained thinking of 45 years. I am not a bitter ex. I am concerned for those I love, and hope that they will see through it. Romans 1:16 ESV bible.com/bible/59/rom.1.16.ESV
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 8:30:47 GMT -5
Thank you learner for your honesty
|
|
|
Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 11:33:26 GMT -5
We're all still here because many - sometimes most - of our loved ones and families are still in bondage to the group, so we can't make a clean separation. We're here because our families/relatives/loved ones have been conditioned against outsiders but we still can't just desert them. Why do I occasionally read this? I am an ex (~ 5yrs). I have hardly been watching it but since all this has come out in the last 2 months, I have been watching more closely. Half of my family, including my spouse still attend. He was told about DB and a couple of the overseers standing down by someone else attending - I had already seen it but hadn’t told him because I didn’t want to discourage his faith. He supports me in my journey of deconstructing my faith and wants me to keep being an active christian. So I do it for him too. BUT, for him and other members of the family, he doesn’t want to change because it is what he has always done, he likes his Sunday meeting, and is happy to overlook everything else. I’ve asked him, it is because he doesn’t like change is why he wont do anything about it and it hasn’t affected him. It suits him, he likes the fellowship. If he was a woman, he might be madder about it considering he would have put up with all the silly customs imposed on women while terrible things were going on in the ministry that have been ignored, - hypocrisy. A double standard. - I suspect he would have tossed it in the first time he had to wear a skirt while boating. He doesn’t think it is the only way, and respects other churches and christians. I hope that he sees through it so we can attend a church together again, but I will not be the one telling him all these awful events. I support his hold on faith in God - even if I think it might be in the wrong format. This is the reason for why I am still here and have a hard time breaking away- see Elizabethcoleman’s quote. It is very hard for me to make a clean break as every family gathering is full of ‘friendlies’ and the talk is related to the sub-culture of the two-by-twos. My mother is always going on about how amazing the workers are because … they made themselves a cup of tea when visiting her. Or something. I got to the point where I had to be honest with myself, and as I deconstructed my faith I felt the doctrine was too internally focused, with not enough outreach. Also, I love the verses about salvation and grace - and as i informed myself, the book, ‘What’s so amazing about grace’ by Phillip Yancey was pivotal, I started this deconstruction process. Furthermore, I was over the patriarchy and lack of transparency. I haven’t changed my mind in the last 5 years. I also felt a liberty when I left. Still do. I think about in Romans 1:16 “For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” I want to ask you who are fully paid up members, …‘how’s that going for you now’? Nothing wrong with the beautiful gospel story - just big issues with the delivery/ministry of it. Would you be able to unequivocally ask someone along to a gospel meeting right now with the current state of affairs? I will not be telling my adult children who do not attend and never professed about the scandals. Why, because I am embarrassed that I was part of it for so long, and that many people they love are still tied up in it. Perhaps, there is still a bit of me that has been conditioned to not put the dirty laundry out for all to see. Hard to drop the ingrained thinking of 45 years. I am not a bitter ex. I am concerned for those I love, and hope that they will see through it. Romans 1:16 ESV bible.com/bible/59/rom.1.16.ESVThank you for sharing your perspective and story. It was interesting for me to read, I enjoy always hearing the other side of things, in general, as it helps me and all of us become less narrow minded. Unlike your husband, I don’t go because it suits me and I like the fellowship. I go to meetings because I feel Gods spirit there and it feeds my soul. it feeds something that I cannot find in this world. It feeds something that is already alive during the week: Trying to read and have the spirit interpret verses to my heart for what I need at the time and I’m going through. Building a relationship with God. Praying. Loving Him. Loving His kingdom, his people, his ministry, his sheep. To me, it is a miracle when imperfect sinners can (and if one understand the Bible, and are honest with themselves, we are all sitting there as sinners) sit in a Sunday morning meeting and share what’s fed their hearts, the past few days and God spirit uses that to work it into our own hearts. I felt that yesterday at 10 AM again. And I will continue to go until I don’t feel God’s spirit there, and it does not feed my soul. That is what all of this is about on why we associate with meetings or conventions or workers. And I wonder if some of people I know and love, forget what it’s all about and just go with go with the flow. It’s not that I’m a subscriber and it’s my parents religion. It’s not that I’ve gotten into a habit of seeing my friends at Bible study and Sunday morning meeting. Now, to be honest, there’s been times in my life where that’s been more of the case. And as humans, it’s easy to get caught up in the X’s and O’s of religion. And I would absolutely invite someone to Gospel meeting in a heartbeat. Because I know how much I love this family and I would want them to be a part of it. This is a big family. And just as your natural family, if you had a family member or family members that were sexual predators, you would invite them to be around your other great family members that are not sexual predators? I was born and raised in this way, but There was a time period when I did not go to meetings. I have been to a different religions church service on a Sunday morning. I was in awe of the church building, unbelievable awe. But I did not feel the spirit of God in that building, and I felt disrespectful to God for even being there when everything was supposed to be about Him. That’s just my personal experience. I look at it this way. Yes, the truth has flaws that revolve around the people, saints, and servants. But find me better. find me a better religion than the truth. find me a religion that tries to follow the Bible according to the Bible closer than the truth. Find me one encourages its people to read its Bible, and to pray, and to serve only God, and try to live in the world but not of the world. Find me a relook or organization that has all of that, and is a family. Find me another organization or religion that can go across the world, get the address of a house, walk into the home at 10 AM, and instantly have fellowship and feel like family. Can any politics do that? Can black live matter organization do that or the KKK? Can a muscle car organization do that? Can Greenpeace do that? Can the Catholics do that? Can the PBR members do that? Can teachers do that? find me a set of ministers that go out like the Bible teaches, that gives up everything they have, wife, career, money, fast cars, hopes, dreams, and because they feel called by God that this is their place. I know workers that have been in for 60 or 70 years and they want nothing more than to die preaching the gospel and trying to find another soul that God can save, not them. You think workers give up all of that and live that unnatural life for money, for status, for pride, for power? I’ve read on here that some think it’s because they’re gay and have no other options… Which is the most asinine thing I have ever heard in my life, I think. Extremely laughable. They are so not perfect, and they will be the first to admit that, and ask you to not put them on a pedestal. And yes, let’s get the rotten ones out of there. The ones that are too power-hungry, the CSA, the troublemakers. That’s the way I look at it. That’s why I believe this is Gods true way, and it doesn’t matter to me if it’s the only way or not, it’s the only way for me. I go because I God is there, and is in (most of) His people, as I feel Him in me.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 22, 2023 18:43:38 GMT -5
I also don't think the word 'bitter' is appropriate. Its rude. I am very thankful for all who post on this forum. I am grateful they are doing more than 'golfing and woodworking' . I have searched this site for 10+ years and found more reliable information than talking with workers and friends. I have only become an active poster in the past month and i have found great support from each post/thread. If we surround ourselves with only those who believe the same things as us...we will not grow. I don't always agree with each poster, and thats okay. We can all learn from one another. Also-I have found those who have left this faith, have often left for reasons they can explain...but how often do we really ask why and listen rather than just say they 'lost their faith' or 'not listening to God's voice'. Some have reasons (as we have seen esp lately) to be angry and 'bitter'. We have failed so many with the choices that have been made. We don't get to judge when someone has harsh words or feelings towards this faith. and lets not forget, if it wasn't for those 'bitter ex's' this CSA stuff would have been swept under the rug ONCE AGAIN. Better question-why did you search and find this site? Why did you feel moved to sign up? What are you wanting to get out of your time here? There are bitter, even angry people here who resent the Truth, to the point where they rejected Christianity all together and became atheist or agnostic. They now mock and hate the bible. So I kinda doubt it was the 2x2's that set them off, but just disbelief from the onset. I personally was never bitter, just confused...Still am half the time . Not everyone has an ax to grind, but most are strongly opinionated. But most ex's aren't bitter, they just disagree with the over-regulated rules, exclusivity, guilt, restrictions, dress codes, earned salvation instead of grace, no triune God, the silent treatment, unfair judgement, hidden detrimental activities, sweeping problems under the rug, salvation only through Workers, and them being the only true way instead of Christ. The recent revelation of infidelity, adultery, fornication, pornography, under age sexual abuse, and rape, have just put an explanation mark on the whole ball of wax. Most feel sad though, not bitter. I agree most exes aren't bitter. But neither are those who are atheists. I am an atheist but I am not bitter towards the 2x2's. I read the bible and it's what made me realize I couldn't worship a god like the OT god. I was 12 so it was a scary time for me because I knew that choice would send me to hell. Over the years I have researched many religions and philosophies. It's been quite interesting. In the end I have come to the conclusion that the likelihood of a personal god is so low it's not even on the radar of likely. I am now at peace with what I have learned and concluded, but that hasn't made me bitter, just happier and more at peace with life.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 22, 2023 18:59:35 GMT -5
My first post here. I professed from ages 12 to sometime in my 20s (when I left was a moving target). I have a much richer faith now than ever. I first came here researching for a book, but check back now and again. The wording of your questions hit me. For decades none of the current or former friends had any access to information such as what most organizations would call a membership roster. Making literal friendships with "the friends" depended on who you interacted with in meetings and conventions. Former members were completely on their own depending on the extent to which they were shunned by their family. I think places like this message board represent a massive cathartic exercise to many who have suffered emotional trauma and isolation. Particularly if a person spent decades of their life in the meeting, the idea of a "clean break" is a fantasy. There are family members still in the meeting. There is significant mental and emotional recovery to be done. Depending on the personal experience of the person it can be a bit like waking from a coma in a socialization sense. This board has people who understand. The idea that former members who are processing mental and emotional trauma that manifests itself in a wide range of emotions - sorrow, fear, excitement, anxiety, and even anger - are actually experiencing the "knowledge of truth" pricking their conscience is the most effective, crippling, manipulative myths that prey on the minds of former members. I am not even saying it is intentional on the part of those in the meeting or the workers. It is like if I were raised from a baby being told that if I ever wore a green shirt I would die in a car accident. Maybe not immediately, but early and eventually. That thought was drilled into me from the time of infancy. Over and over and over. If I made the decision to no longer let this thing control my actions, and made a break in my adulthood, you can bet I am going to have to process some pretty heavy anxiety and emotional trauma every time I put on a green shirt. My adult brain may recognize it is not true. I may know with every fiber in my being it is not true. But those grooves in the record are too deep. That takes time. And wouldn't it be awfully convenient for those who drilled this concept into me to say that my anxiety every time I put on a green shirt was actually my "conscience struggling with what I know to be true." It is a devastatingly effective deception, even if the deceiver believes it - perhaps especially since the deceiver believes it. So from that sense, perhaps you have stumbled on something approximating the truth with your final question. Maybe it does help to quell that anxiety to come to a place like this and reinforce the reasons for leaving the meeting in the first place. To come somewhere where like minded people can get together to communally repair the synapses in their mind, heart, and soul. Not for justification for leaving "truth" but for support in rebuilding patterns of thought and emotion which have been stunted and damaged. There is a specific forum run by Iylo I believe that's just for EX's to rant about the 2x2's. Don't remember its name though but it should not be hard to find...It would be a better fit for most of the people here... Is that the one that he is with Cherie on? If so it's only for exes that remained Christians. I was on it for awhile but because I was an atheist I was not allowed back on when they revamped the forum a few years ago.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 22, 2023 19:04:20 GMT -5
Why are you on here ? Would you like to speak to my police officers ? I can hook ya up . You seem bitter that we come here to discuss issues . Not literally , but I am here because I get support from excellent professing people . I still break bread with many professing people . What is your mission ? You really don’t get it . Regardless of not being professing I took my parents to all meetings and special meetings and conventions . I served my parents even though not professing ! Were you raped at 13 years old and still trying to bury -hit about the Way ? What is YOUR mission Chinese? You come across as confused and in need of being cleared. Have you gotten the help that you really need? Or are you just going from person to person to carry you along? Chinese: you need professional help. Are you truly getting that? Or are you just getting validation from people that make you feel okay in the moment? I know who you are, Chinese. And you are running, literally RUNNING from your problems. If you were raped, Ok. Fine. But you need professional help. Not just a forum. You need someone who will help you face your demons head on. Head on. The demons of Jesus' day are still around. And, I suspect they are wrecking havoc on your life. Time to cast the demons OUT. OUT. Good - bye demons. In the name of Jesus Christ, I command you to leave ! Can you say that with complete conviction? Because that is what it takes. YOU have the power to cast out the demons if you really want to. What the hell is this bs!! Bloody religion truly warps people's minds. Demons!!! You have no idea who chinesewhispers is, what help she has had yet you are prepared to claim she is possessed by demons! I am truly sickened by this.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 22, 2023 19:10:54 GMT -5
Chinese whispers really needs our support. Several of us on this board have a lot of respect for her. It sounds like you are suggesting that she is possessed by the devil. I certainly hope that is not what you are suggesting. That is certainly not helpful - even cruel. Verna, I have never asked for your opinion so close your mouth. You're on a public forum making comments so if you don't want others to comment you're in the wrong place. Verna is right and support is needed.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 22, 2023 19:14:47 GMT -5
Demonic possession would require a belief in a god. Reputable doctors rely on medical evidence rather than some goatherder garbage from 2000 years ago. She lost me a bit on that comment. Totally lost me. I am concerned for anyone that depends on her for counselling if demonic possession is an option in her world.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 19:35:48 GMT -5
She apologized !
|
|
|
Post by verna on May 22, 2023 19:50:31 GMT -5
I’ll have to go back and look for that.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 20:15:39 GMT -5
I’ll have to go back and look for that. I think she messaged me , so it’s all good she apologized !
|
|
|
Post by alwaysbekind on May 22, 2023 20:32:33 GMT -5
I’ll have to go back and look for that. I think she messaged me , so it’s all good she apologized ! One party apologizing, one party accepting the apology, and both moving forward. A nice example for us all, thank you both.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 22, 2023 20:36:15 GMT -5
Yes Peggy and allwaysbekind have apologized . For the record . No call so now foul , I will continue to believe in the universe . I whisper and wait for an answer . That is my creator of choice ! I don’t need to sit in a meeting or house or church . My spiritual journey requires just my creator and I .
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 20:38:55 GMT -5
Token "Bitter Ex" here 😆
I came here to learn initially. When you leave, there's a lot of gaslighting. It's helpful to know you're not insane when you read people who have similar observations. And if you're careful, you can be quasi-anonymous so as not to take heat from family and friends.
Got to know several, and enjoy their perspectives. Enjoy talking about other stuff, and occasionally 2x2 stuff.
I've learned stuff here that I've been able to use to warn people of predators in their conventions without people knowing the "bitter ex black sheep" of the family was behind it.
And of course, it's a great place to read lies on the internet, like "the 2x2s were started by Irvine" and other blasphemous things.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 20:43:24 GMT -5
Yes Peggy and allwaysbekind have apologized . For the record . No call so now foul , I will continue to believe in the universe . I whisper and wait for an answer . That is my creator of choice ! I don’t need to sit in a meeting or house or church . My spiritual journey requires just my creator and I . It's hard to read tone on the internet. A person may wish the best but come across the worst. A helping of grace for all of us doesn't go amiss.
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 22, 2023 21:08:05 GMT -5
Good. Thank you Peggy Sullivan
|
|
magpies39plus
Senior Member
WHY? Does quoting relevant scripture send the 2x2;s into sometimes a nasty response??
Posts: 576
|
Post by magpies39plus on Jun 2, 2023 2:06:22 GMT -5
We were taught to lie? Here Christian Assemblies of Australia sold "their" (TITLED")convention grounds. 2x lies.(name property) Denying the unatural celibate unbiblical ministry (Middle East laws unless you had a witness your complaint or defense would be classed invallid) has/is a perfect hiding place for those with deviant sexual preferences,many male/feemale paedophiles (child molesters) I know as a victim of 2!!!. Many who complained were put on the gossip line as Trouble makers,"OR"told that is best not to speak of it,worst thing You will grow away from it,etc. They create and spread lie # 3. about the victims.The Orthodox Hassic Jewish women still shave their heads as you see in Jesus time the women all wore scarves on their heads. Today it is wiggs!!The crowning glory is a statement of womans liberation,from the bondage of mans law now it is used by 2 x 2's as a bondage (hold over). Lie # 4.... ETC, Read the first 7 verses in 1 Corinthians Ch 9. No don;t just read it study and cross reference. The Irvine doctrine is one of the most scripture ignorant denominations on earth. No wonder ex's who are taught scripture or lead into a deeper closer relationship with God !!
|
|