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Post by BobWilliston on May 19, 2023 23:08:26 GMT -5
Again I didn’t say that . I know nothing about your family . If you feel people are bullying you go to admin and suggest they get a time out . That is an option available . Time out like little kids? Puleeze. Shouldn’t have to do that. Oh yes, it can happen. Wait till someone tells you you're going to go to hell.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 20, 2023 6:59:00 GMT -5
The fact is… if any of you did any research on demonic possession… you would realize that they take advantage of when children are abused! Hello. A door is opened for demonic spirits when a child is abused. Chinese comes across as someone who is not herself and very confused. It could be a demon. That’s all I I’m saying. Like it or not. peggysullivan, maybe before you say too much read 1chinesewhispers posts and ask her about her experiences as a victim/survivor. As for your demonic possession view, are you for real?
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 8:46:55 GMT -5
The fact is… if any of you did any research on demonic possession… you would realize that they take advantage of when children are abused! Hello. A door is opened for demonic spirits when a child is abused. Chinese comes across as someone who is not herself and very confused. It could be a demon. That’s all I I’m saying. Like it or not. peggysullivan, maybe before you say too much read 1chinesewhispers posts and ask her about her experiences as a victim/survivor. As for your demonic possession view, are you for real? I will pm you.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 20, 2023 19:03:15 GMT -5
I do not think the truth has a proclivity to hurt people. I believe that any organization with tens of thousands of humans involved are going to people act and speak wrongly, and have those offended. Humans of all organizations offend people. Your favorite organizations, business, and even those you love (mine too) have caused a lot of hurt and damage. Any company, politics, group, religion, school, business, etc has CSA and bad actors. Anywhere there are humans, there is human nature and there will be problems, worldwide. I don’t know how many friends are in the truth, but it’s tens and tens of thousands. So yes, I’m not surprised that there are some that are offended from those within the truth. That absolutely does not make it right, and I can be sorry for those hurt, while also believing there’s not a systemic problem that I have seen. Dale Shultz articulated a systemic problem well in his letter to "the concerned ones". From: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.phpWe also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us.When obedience to a hierarchy is more important than "some deep conviction before God" then it's a systemic problem. You seem to be missing some all-important context. How convenient of you not to even add the previous three sentences for more context. In fact, read the whole letter for the full context (from the letter at least), and tone of what is it he is trying to teach. We will never get the full context, because we do not even know what the whole situation he was addressing or and can’t see all the sides of the situation . Let’s not take things out of context. Keep your gloves above the belt… Fight fair.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2023 19:15:36 GMT -5
Dale Shultz articulated a systemic problem well in his letter to "the concerned ones". From: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.phpWe also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us.When obedience to a hierarchy is more important than "some deep conviction before God" then it's a systemic problem. You seem to be missing some all-important context. How convenient of you not to even add the previous three sentences for more context. In fact, read the whole letter for the full context (from the letter at least), and tone of what is it he is trying to teach. We will never get the full context, because we do not even know what the whole situation he was addressing or and can’t see all the sides of the situation . Let’s not take things out of context. Keep your gloves above the belt… Fight fair. The same could be said for any verse in the bible. By all means read the whole letter: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.phpHere's the context: tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/alberta_acct.phpIf our attitude towards Dean Bruer becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well? Is that not a systemic problem? I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.
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jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by jane on May 20, 2023 19:38:27 GMT -5
This is a bit deeper of a question than you might think. Is there anything about the social isolation of meeting and workers that creates the circumstances that make this sort of thing more common? That can be debated, and I am not going to offer an answer other than to say it is something to ponder. What I will comment on is accountability. It is true that any large group of people and any organization has bad actors because humans are involved. However, meeting has extreme secrecy in its governance by workers and overseers. There is faith and trust in the workers, but ultimately no objective accountability for money or actions. If money is donated to workers, there is no publicly available balance sheet or budget. And of course no audit. In a formally organized church or even secular organization there are financial records and audits. These are safeguards that prevent a bad actor from using donated money to maintain an underage sex dungeon in a Best Western for God knows how many years, only discovered when he had the misfortune of dropping dead in the place. In organizations with financial accountability, misappropriating donations to evil ends is much more difficult to hide. Society has learned to build safeguards into organizations over that last 50+ years to prevent this sort of thing from going on undetected. Great thought provoking questions. I'll have to ponder more on it, but ill put in my two cents. In regards to social isolation: I think of how, typically, CSA happens. There's usually a grooming period first. Then an opportunity alone, and then that opportunity is acted upon. I believe thats the process, from my research. (i'm happy to be corrected and informed otherwise) This makes sense why about 40% of CSA victims are by family members (alone and opportunity) and 96% are trusted by victim and/family. More specifically to workers, they are in our homes and trusted. I believe one fixable problem is education, which we are all learning it the hard way. I believe another problem is that you don't think it CAN happen to your children or from a certain group (uncles, grandparents, friends, workers, neighbors, etc.) Practically speaking, in regards to meetings, I don't even see how thats physically possible…no opportunity. (you show up, sit down, have meeting, leave) conventions? Low but still scenario for opportunity, less supervision to run free/sleep, etc. special meetings? no. another good thing thats happening in the truth, is conversations parents are having with their children about being ok to speak up and when to and whats appropriate/not appropriate. My practical takeaway to fight against CSA is…parents educate themselves and their children. make it clear they are not in trouble or the problem if it does have and come to parents with anything. report anything to police if there is. This is even help make it less appealing for perps if they KNOW they will get caught and prosecuted. The truth and society, in general, are FINALLY getting around to not sweeping this under the rug. One good thing about this current generation. Lets keep in mind this is in no way specific to the truth, but still prevalent. 1 in 4 girls are molested (according to CDC) and 1 in 6 boys. this means theres almost a guaranteed predator in in our extended family. we can't paint all workers any certain way. I have had countless alone encounters with workers alone as a kid, and loved our time with them. us kids had zero instances. i know this isnt everyones story, but it's good to hear that side too. (wow that got long, sorry) The money thing will take a lot more pondering. What are your thoughts and solutions? i never like to turn anything good upside down because of one totally rare and bizzare incident (DB at BW). I'd be open to the possibility of better tweaks, though. you disagree, but I personally don't think the money issue is being abused or that big of an issue. What ways is it being abused other than the best western incident? I think you are adorable and I worry that if you continue on this forum and continue learning...you will realize how innocent you are to this faith and the 'behind the scenes' activities. It is a nice life to stick to the surface of this faith. Don't say i didn't warn you. -If you really think that meetings and conventions are safe and 'no opportunity' for CSA, please google CSA grooming. Meetings, conventions, potlucks are where the grooming of the child and parents start. And...if you want a real deep dive...look into (Worker) from CA. Look where and how he raped the friends children. I don't think you will feel super safe after that TRUE STORY read. I have several others I can have you read, if that isn't enough for you. -You say that education is the a way to fight CSA. Yes. We can be having conversations and learning. But it doesn't take a 'training' to know to report CSA. (eye roll). The BEST action is to take all 250+ perp and ask them to no longer be around children. Anywhere. Ever. If the overseers did a deep clean of their staff, we would ALL feel much safer and it would rebuild trust. I'm not sure where you live, but i highly encourage you to ask your local workers and overseers to review all the 'accusations' of those on their staff, local elders and friends (esp those with CSA records) and consider the options. I guarantee every overseer knows a min of 5-10 perps off the top of their head. Why is it all the children and parents responsibility to clean up this mess? We are not the ones who are hiding pedophiles. We are not the ones ignoring police reports. We are not the ones who are allowing men who have been charged with child porn to be in meetings or be elders. Yeah, we can talk to our kids--but its not our kids responsibility. The overseers should not be sending known perverts into our homes. period. -I also find your innocence about the financials cute. Are you comfortable with each state/province having millions of dollars? Are you okay with the workers saying they are 'poor and homeless' and yet wear Armani suits, own the latest iphones and have plenty of homes and back up homes to stay in? Do you honestly think that DB is a 'rare and bizarre' incident? Keep reading on this site for other financial indescretions (Willis Prop, Jack Price etc). Have you noticed that the workers have been willing to talk about CSA but NONE have mentioned financials? Not a word. Interesting, no? Where is the transparency there?
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 20, 2023 19:43:05 GMT -5
You seem to be missing some all-important context. How convenient of you not to even add the previous three sentences for more context. In fact, read the whole letter for the full context (from the letter at least), and tone of what is it he is trying to teach. We will never get the full context, because we do not even know what the whole situation he was addressing or and can’t see all the sides of the situation . Let’s not take things out of context. Keep your gloves above the belt… Fight fair. The same could be said for any verse in the bible. By all means read the whole letter: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.phpHere's the context: tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/alberta_acct.phpIf our attitude towards Dean Bruer becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well? Is that not a systemic problem? I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.I did read the letter, that’s why I suggested you read it. As friends we believe the workers are just like us, all struggling souls, except they have a different place than us. Just as the Bible talks about children having different place, as well as wives and husbands. And yes, we look to the workers as leaders. And they will be the first to admit they are not perfect, and that we shouldn’t put them on a pedestal. In a conversation in March, a brother worker, and I were talking about what we heard at convention, and he he loves when people in their testimonies say “ I don’t remember who said it… But I enjoyed the thought we heard” and it was something he had shared from the platform at convention. He said he loves when they remember the spirit and the message and not the messenger. If you think all brother workers are monsters, you won’t believe that, and that’s fine, I don’t really care. I know that goes against the conspiracy on here thinking they all crave power and control and they’re all powerful, and that everyone blindly follows, and worships them and never questions and yada yada. at least this is not the experience with the workers in the staffs in the different states I have lived in. And yes, some abuse power and I’m positive struggle with keeping their pride in check, as all men do. But we do look to them as our leaders, and believe they look after the field or started and make decisions on what’s best. Not an easy job.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 20:31:37 GMT -5
The same could be said for any verse in the bible. By all means read the whole letter: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/shultz-AB.phpHere's the context: tellingthetruth.info/history_divisions/alberta_acct.phpIf our attitude towards Dean Bruer becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well? Is that not a systemic problem? I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.I did read the letter, that’s why I suggested you read it. As friends we believe the workers are just like us, all struggling souls, except they have a different place than us. Just as the Bible talks about children having different place, as well as wives and husbands. And yes, we look to the workers as leaders. And they will be the first to admit they are not perfect, and that we shouldn’t put them on a pedestal. In a conversation in March, a brother worker, and I were talking about what we heard at convention, and he he loves when people in their testimonies say “ I don’t remember who said it… But I enjoyed the thought we heard” and it was something he had shared from the platform at convention. He said he loves when they remember the spirit and the message and not the messenger. If you think all brother workers are monsters, you won’t believe that, and that’s fine, I don’t really care. I know that goes against the conspiracy on here thinking they all crave power and control and they’re all powerful, and that everyone blindly follows, and worships them and never questions and yada yada. at least this is not the experience with the workers in the staffs in the different states I have lived in. And yes, some abuse power and I’m positive struggle with keeping their pride in check, as all men do. But we do look to them as our leaders, and believe they look after the field or started and make decisions on what’s best. Not an easy job. This is my personal view on this matter: It's not most of the workers that want power. It's the FRIENDS who relinquish their God given power and they need to step up and NOT rely on the workers to lead as much. Let's face it, the workers are not always around. Our walk with God is a daily thing, it doesn't really involve the workers. Yet, when there is a problem. they tattle to the workers in some cases, rather than go directly to the source to work it out. Then the worker comes to you with this accusation one of the friend made and they don't even have both sides of the story. The workers as the middle men for the problem solving sometimes just creates more problems. BUT, it's the friends to also do that. So, in my mind, the friends need to step up and problem solve themselves. Many of them are too timid or lack the impetus to do so. So, they simply need to step up.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 20, 2023 20:39:44 GMT -5
Great thought provoking questions. I'll have to ponder more on it, but ill put in my two cents. In regards to social isolation: I think of how, typically, CSA happens. There's usually a grooming period first. Then an opportunity alone, and then that opportunity is acted upon. I believe thats the process, from my research. (i'm happy to be corrected and informed otherwise) This makes sense why about 40% of CSA victims are by family members (alone and opportunity) and 96% are trusted by victim and/family. More specifically to workers, they are in our homes and trusted. I believe one fixable problem is education, which we are all learning it the hard way. I believe another problem is that you don't think it CAN happen to your children or from a certain group (uncles, grandparents, friends, workers, neighbors, etc.) Practically speaking, in regards to meetings, I don't even see how thats physically possible…no opportunity. (you show up, sit down, have meeting, leave) conventions? Low but still scenario for opportunity, less supervision to run free/sleep, etc. special meetings? no. another good thing thats happening in the truth, is conversations parents are having with their children about being ok to speak up and when to and whats appropriate/not appropriate. My practical takeaway to fight against CSA is…parents educate themselves and their children. make it clear they are not in trouble or the problem if it does have and come to parents with anything. report anything to police if there is. This is even help make it less appealing for perps if they KNOW they will get caught and prosecuted. The truth and society, in general, are FINALLY getting around to not sweeping this under the rug. One good thing about this current generation. Lets keep in mind this is in no way specific to the truth, but still prevalent. 1 in 4 girls are molested (according to CDC) and 1 in 6 boys. this means theres almost a guaranteed predator in in our extended family. we can't paint all workers any certain way. I have had countless alone encounters with workers alone as a kid, and loved our time with them. us kids had zero instances. i know this isnt everyones story, but it's good to hear that side too. (wow that got long, sorry) The money thing will take a lot more pondering. What are your thoughts and solutions? i never like to turn anything good upside down because of one totally rare and bizzare incident (DB at BW). I'd be open to the possibility of better tweaks, though. you disagree, but I personally don't think the money issue is being abused or that big of an issue. What ways is it being abused other than the best western incident? I think you are adorable and I worry that if you continue on this forum and continue learning...you will realize how innocent you are to this faith and the 'behind the scenes' activities. It is a nice life to stick to the surface of this faith. Don't say i didn't warn you. -If you really think that meetings and conventions are safe and 'no opportunity' for CSA, please google CSA grooming. Meetings, conventions, potlucks are where the grooming of the child and parents start. And...if you want a real deep dive...look into (Worker) from CA. Look where and how he raped the friends children. I don't think you will feel super safe after that TRUE STORY read. I have several others I can have you read, if that isn't enough for you. -You say that education is the a way to fight CSA. Yes. We can be having conversations and learning. But it doesn't take a 'training' to know to report CSA. (eye roll). The BEST action is to take all 250+ perp and ask them to no longer be around children. Anywhere. Ever. If the overseers did a deep clean of their staff, we would ALL feel much safer and it would rebuild trust. I'm not sure where you live, but i highly encourage you to ask your local workers and overseers to review all the 'accusations' of those on their staff, local elders and friends (esp those with CSA records) and consider the options. I guarantee every overseer knows a min of 5-10 perps off the top of their head. Why is it all the children and parents responsibility to clean up this mess? We are not the ones who are hiding pedophiles. We are not the ones ignoring police reports. We are not the ones who are allowing men who have been charged with child porn to be in meetings or be elders. Yeah, we can talk to our kids--but its not our kids responsibility. The overseers should not be sending known perverts into our homes. period. -I also find your innocence about the financials cute. Are you comfortable with each state/province having millions of dollars? Are you okay with the workers saying they are 'poor and homeless' and yet wear Armani suits, own the latest iphones and have plenty of homes and back up homes to stay in? Do you honestly think that DB is a 'rare and bizarre' incident? Keep reading on this site for other financial indescretions (Willis Prop, Jack Price etc). Have you noticed that the workers have been willing to talk about CSA but NONE have mentioned financials? Not a word. Interesting, no? Where is the transparency there? I don’t enjoy your condescending tone at all, but I’ll let it pass this time. I think you assume that just because I don’t buy into all of the money and worker/truth conspiracies, or don’t come to the same conclusions as you (or this echo chamber forum of mostly exes and bitter exes posting) that I’m somehow not educated or aware or naïve, or have my head in the sand. I find it a little ironic how those outside of the faith (and many for many many decades) think they have a better pulse and understanding on everything than those that are in it, who actually have conversations with the friends and conversations with the workers and see things and hear things. The ins and outs. God and His way are the biggest part my life and has been all of my life. And no, I haven’t experience some of the things that a lot of those outside of the faith have faced, but the a lot of people on here have completely built up an unrealistic, exaggerated idea of what’s is going on, in my opinion. And this forum is a great environment to feed that, to feed off of each other and the negative in the rumors and the untrue and the biased opinions, and build that up. But I am not surprised at the least bit. Or maybe I should be shocked and surprised by that, since, you know, I’m such a shallow thinker. a few months ago, I had a night with my good friend, who is in the work. he had a little sticker on his suitcase. I teased him about it and asked him why it was on there. He said one of the wealthy friends bought it, didn’t like it and gave it to him, and he put a little sticker over the label because he was embarrassed to drag it into the friends house because it was that luxury name brand. I heard from a different workers that they were in Mexico for a while and they felt guilty driving a nice filled car (not nice to usa but nice in Mexico) that the friends gave them driving into some of the Poorer friends driveways. i don’t have a problem with nice gifts and quality clothes, especially when you have a few sets. I have an iPhone, why can’t the workers have an iPhone? I find it super hilarious that some people who don’t even believe in the ministry, or the truth get really caught up and upset on the workers having it too nice. Of all the things to complain about! I don’t assume you are like that, but I have heard that…it’s almost like they would feel better if they wore rags around. As a friend, I am not concerned about the financials, so that doesn’t bother me. And yes, I do believe the DB is a bizarre situation. Some thing to remember too is that this big storm and exposure is 70+ years of building up and Mishandling it. Just as the me too movement was a big bomb, that’s what this is. I’m glad, as this has no place in the bride of Christ. And As apart of the church, we are supposed to be Readying the bride for the Lords return. Purifying it by trying to purify ourselves. I’m so thankful for the blood of Jesus that removes the blemishes from my garment, as I have many myself. Thankfully, none of my blemishes affects anyone else or that would put me in jail, but certainly enough to put me in a lost eternity, if not for Jesus’ blood. I strongly strongly strongly disagree that it’s not up to the parents to keep their kids safe. It is absolutely the parents job to keep the kids safe. If it’s not a safe environment at school, don’t let them go to school, if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 20, 2023 20:42:07 GMT -5
I did read the letter, that’s why I suggested you read it. As friends we believe the workers are just like us, all struggling souls, except they have a different place than us. Just as the Bible talks about children having different place, as well as wives and husbands. And yes, we look to the workers as leaders. And they will be the first to admit they are not perfect, and that we shouldn’t put them on a pedestal. In a conversation in March, a brother worker, and I were talking about what we heard at convention, and he he loves when people in their testimonies say “ I don’t remember who said it… But I enjoyed the thought we heard” and it was something he had shared from the platform at convention. He said he loves when they remember the spirit and the message and not the messenger. If you think all brother workers are monsters, you won’t believe that, and that’s fine, I don’t really care. I know that goes against the conspiracy on here thinking they all crave power and control and they’re all powerful, and that everyone blindly follows, and worships them and never questions and yada yada. at least this is not the experience with the workers in the staffs in the different states I have lived in. And yes, some abuse power and I’m positive struggle with keeping their pride in check, as all men do. But we do look to them as our leaders, and believe they look after the field or started and make decisions on what’s best. Not an easy job. This is my personal view on this matter: It's not most of the workers that want power. It's the FRIENDS who relinquish their God given power and they need to step up and NOT rely on the workers to lead as much. Let's face it, the workers are not always around. Our walk with God is a daily thing, it doesn't really involve the workers. Yet, when there is a problem. they tattle to the workers in some cases, rather than go directly to the source to work it out. Then the worker comes to you with this accusation one of the friend made and they don't even have both sides of the story. The workers as the middle men for the problem solving sometimes just creates more problems. BUT, it's the friends to also do that. So, in my mind, the friends need to step up and problem solve themselves. Many of them are too timid or lack the impetus to do so. So, they simply need to step up. Yup, I agree with this. It puts the workers in an awkward spot, and I can guarantee you they would love if that was removed from their “job title”.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 20:46:10 GMT -5
This is my personal view on this matter: It's not most of the workers that want power. It's the FRIENDS who relinquish their God given power and they need to step up and NOT rely on the workers to lead as much. Let's face it, the workers are not always around. Our walk with God is a daily thing, it doesn't really involve the workers. Yet, when there is a problem. they tattle to the workers in some cases, rather than go directly to the source to work it out. Then the worker comes to you with this accusation one of the friend made and they don't even have both sides of the story. The workers as the middle men for the problem solving sometimes just creates more problems. BUT, it's the friends to also do that. So, in my mind, the friends need to step up and problem solve themselves. Many of them are too timid or lack the impetus to do so. So, they simply need to step up. Yup, I agree with this. It puts the workers in an awkward spot, and I can guarantee you they would love if that was removed from their “job title”. It really is the FRIENDS who have placed the workers in that spot. Not sure how to change that. It's a mindset and partly a tradition, I suppose....
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2023 22:24:35 GMT -5
I strongly strongly strongly disagree that it’s not up to the parents to keep their kids safe. It is absolutely the parents job to keep the kids safe. If it’s not a safe environment at school, don’t let them go to school, if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming. You've acknowledged that it's a systemic problem. It's up to parents to keep their kids safe so they will be looking for a fellowship group that cares as much about keeping children safe as they do.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 20, 2023 22:29:11 GMT -5
I strongly strongly strongly disagree that it’s not up to the parents to keep their kids safe. It is absolutely the parents job to keep the kids safe. If it’s not a safe environment at school, don’t let them go to school, if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming. You've acknowledged that it's a systemic problem. It's up to parents to keep their kids safe so they will be looking for a fellowship group that cares as much about keeping children safe as they do. That is not true.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 23:00:17 GMT -5
I think there needs to awareness all around if there is going to be zero tolerance. Everyone needs to be on board and aware, not paranoid, but aware. It's not just up to the parents or the workers. But everyone. Otherwise you will not reach zero tolerance.
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2023 23:09:46 GMT -5
if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming. (The bolding above is mine). I should clarify why I reject your premise that there's no systemic problem. A couple of questions should be asked: 1. What measures are in place to minimise the risks to children at convention? 2. What measures are in place to minimise the risks to children from workers staying in their homes?
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Post by fixit on May 20, 2023 23:18:10 GMT -5
I did read the letter, that’s why I suggested you read it. As friends we believe the workers are just like us, all struggling souls, except they have a different place than us. Just as the Bible talks about children having different place, as well as wives and husbands. And yes, we look to the workers as leaders. And they will be the first to admit they are not perfect, and that we shouldn’t put them on a pedestal. In a conversation in March, a brother worker, and I were talking about what we heard at convention, and he he loves when people in their testimonies say “ I don’t remember who said it… But I enjoyed the thought we heard” and it was something he had shared from the platform at convention. He said he loves when they remember the spirit and the message and not the messenger. If you think all brother workers are monsters, you won’t believe that, and that’s fine, I don’t really care. I know that goes against the conspiracy on here thinking they all crave power and control and they’re all powerful, and that everyone blindly follows, and worships them and never questions and yada yada. at least this is not the experience with the workers in the staffs in the different states I have lived in. And yes, some abuse power and I’m positive struggle with keeping their pride in check, as all men do. But we do look to them as our leaders, and believe they look after the field or started and make decisions on what’s best. Not an easy job. Do you honestly think anyone on TMB thinks all brother workers are monsters? If that's the case it's news to me.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 21, 2023 1:41:21 GMT -5
The money thing will take a lot more pondering. What are your thoughts and solutions? i never like to turn anything good upside down because of one totally rare and bizzare incident (DB at BW). I'd be open to the possibility of better tweaks, though. you disagree, but I personally don't think the money issue is being abused or that big of an issue. What ways is it being abused other than the best western incident? You don't know what you don't know. Until two months ago, you didn't know about the DB issue. Either workers are ordinary people with ordinary temptations and sins, or they are God's anointed and above the rest of us. If they are the former, they need accountability like everyone else. Financial accountability is an issue BECAUSE THE WORKERS CLAIM NEVER TO TAKE OFFERINGS. They also claim NOT to be like other churches who take offerings. This is doublespeak. Of course they take offerings. They just take them in secret instead of visibly. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Other churches provide reports on how much money is collected, and how it is used. The workers absolutely refuse to do this. Why? Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Are they really above accountability? History has proven otherwise.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 21, 2023 1:47:47 GMT -5
The money thing will take a lot more pondering. What are your thoughts and solutions? i never like to turn anything good upside down because of one totally rare and bizzare incident (DB at BW). I'd be open to the possibility of better tweaks, though. you disagree, but I personally don't think the money issue is being abused or that big of an issue. What ways is it being abused other than the best western incident? You don't know what you don't know. Until two months ago, you didn't know about the DB issue. Either workers are ordinary people with ordinary temptations and sins, or they are God's anointed and above the rest of us. If they are the former, they need accountability like everyone else. Financial accountability is an issue BECAUSE THE WORKERS CLAIM NEVER TO TAKE OFFERINGS. They also claim NOT to be like other churches who take offerings. This is doublespeak. Of course they take offerings. They just take them in secret instead of visibly. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Other churches provide reports on how much money is collected, and how it is used. The workers absolutely refuse to do this. Why? Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Are they really above accountability? History has proven otherwise. Going out in faith means that the friends have faith that the money they give the workers is not spent on hookers.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 21, 2023 3:10:06 GMT -5
The money thing will take a lot more pondering. What are your thoughts and solutions? i never like to turn anything good upside down because of one totally rare and bizzare incident (DB at BW). I'd be open to the possibility of better tweaks, though. you disagree, but I personally don't think the money issue is being abused or that big of an issue. What ways is it being abused other than the best western incident? You don't know what you don't know. Until two months ago, you didn't know about the DB issue. Either workers are ordinary people with ordinary temptations and sins, or they are God's anointed and above the rest of us. If they are the former, they need accountability like everyone else. Financial accountability is an issue BECAUSE THE WORKERS CLAIM NEVER TO TAKE OFFERINGS. They also claim NOT to be like other churches who take offerings. This is doublespeak. Of course they take offerings. They just take them in secret instead of visibly. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Other churches provide reports on how much money is collected, and how it is used. The workers absolutely refuse to do this. Why? Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Are they really above accountability? History has proven otherwise. I cannot disagree with a single thing you said here Elizabeth. And I nearly lost my Toffee Pop when I read Curly's "Hookers" comment
It is plain on here that some are suffering the cumulative effects of years of brainwashing, and are in some form of denial, and "don't want to know".
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 21, 2023 14:21:58 GMT -5
You don't know what you don't know. Until two months ago, you didn't know about the DB issue. Either workers are ordinary people with ordinary temptations and sins, or they are God's anointed and above the rest of us. If they are the former, they need accountability like everyone else. Financial accountability is an issue BECAUSE THE WORKERS CLAIM NEVER TO TAKE OFFERINGS. They also claim NOT to be like other churches who take offerings. This is doublespeak. Of course they take offerings. They just take them in secret instead of visibly. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Other churches provide reports on how much money is collected, and how it is used. The workers absolutely refuse to do this. Why? Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Are they really above accountability? History has proven otherwise. I cannot disagree with a single thing you said here Elizabeth. And I nearly lost my Toffee Pop when I read Curly's "Hookers" comment
It is plain on here that some are suffering the cumulative effects of years of brainwashing, and are in some form of denial, and "don't want to know".
Sorry about that. I would really hate to see a good toffee pop wasted.
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jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by jane on May 21, 2023 15:09:08 GMT -5
I think you are adorable and I worry that if you continue on this forum and continue learning...you will realize how innocent you are to this faith and the 'behind the scenes' activities. It is a nice life to stick to the surface of this faith. Don't say i didn't warn you. -If you really think that meetings and conventions are safe and 'no opportunity' for CSA, please google CSA grooming. Meetings, conventions, potlucks are where the grooming of the child and parents start. And...if you want a real deep dive...look into (Worker) from CA. Look where and how he raped the friends children. I don't think you will feel super safe after that TRUE STORY read. I have several others I can have you read, if that isn't enough for you. -You say that education is the a way to fight CSA. Yes. We can be having conversations and learning. But it doesn't take a 'training' to know to report CSA. (eye roll). The BEST action is to take all 250+ perp and ask them to no longer be around children. Anywhere. Ever. If the overseers did a deep clean of their staff, we would ALL feel much safer and it would rebuild trust. I'm not sure where you live, but i highly encourage you to ask your local workers and overseers to review all the 'accusations' of those on their staff, local elders and friends (esp those with CSA records) and consider the options. I guarantee every overseer knows a min of 5-10 perps off the top of their head. Why is it all the children and parents responsibility to clean up this mess? We are not the ones who are hiding pedophiles. We are not the ones ignoring police reports. We are not the ones who are allowing men who have been charged with child porn to be in meetings or be elders. Yeah, we can talk to our kids--but its not our kids responsibility. The overseers should not be sending known perverts into our homes. period. -I also find your innocence about the financials cute. Are you comfortable with each state/province having millions of dollars? Are you okay with the workers saying they are 'poor and homeless' and yet wear Armani suits, own the latest iphones and have plenty of homes and back up homes to stay in? Do you honestly think that DB is a 'rare and bizarre' incident? Keep reading on this site for other financial indescretions (Willis Prop, Jack Price etc). Have you noticed that the workers have been willing to talk about CSA but NONE have mentioned financials? Not a word. Interesting, no? Where is the transparency there? I don’t enjoy your condescending tone at all, but I’ll let it pass this time. I think you assume that just because I don’t buy into all of the money and worker/truth conspiracies, or don’t come to the same conclusions as you (or this echo chamber forum of mostly exes and bitter exes posting) that I’m somehow not educated or aware or naïve, or have my head in the sand. I find it a little ironic how those outside of the faith (and many for many many decades) think they have a better pulse and understanding on everything than those that are in it, who actually have conversations with the friends and conversations with the workers and see things and hear things. The ins and outs. God and His way are the biggest part my life and has been all of my life. And no, I haven’t experience some of the things that a lot of those outside of the faith have faced, but the a lot of people on here have completely built up an unrealistic, exaggerated idea of what’s is going on, in my opinion. And this forum is a great environment to feed that, to feed off of each other and the negative in the rumors and the untrue and the biased opinions, and build that up. But I am not surprised at the least bit. Or maybe I should be shocked and surprised by that, since, you know, I’m such a shallow thinker. a few months ago, I had a night with my good friend, who is in the work. he had a little sticker on his suitcase. I teased him about it and asked him why it was on there. He said one of the wealthy friends bought it, didn’t like it and gave it to him, and he put a little sticker over the label because he was embarrassed to drag it into the friends house because it was that luxury name brand. I heard from a different workers that they were in Mexico for a while and they felt guilty driving a nice filled car (not nice to usa but nice in Mexico) that the friends gave them driving into some of the Poorer friends driveways. i don’t have a problem with nice gifts and quality clothes, especially when you have a few sets. I have an iPhone, why can’t the workers have an iPhone? I find it super hilarious that some people who don’t even believe in the ministry, or the truth get really caught up and upset on the workers having it too nice. Of all the things to complain about! I don’t assume you are like that, but I have heard that…it’s almost like they would feel better if they wore rags around. As a friend, I am not concerned about the financials, so that doesn’t bother me. And yes, I do believe the DB is a bizarre situation. Some thing to remember too is that this big storm and exposure is 70+ years of building up and Mishandling it. Just as the me too movement was a big bomb, that’s what this is. I’m glad, as this has no place in the bride of Christ. And As apart of the church, we are supposed to be Readying the bride for the Lords return. Purifying it by trying to purify ourselves. I’m so thankful for the blood of Jesus that removes the blemishes from my garment, as I have many myself. Thankfully, none of my blemishes affects anyone else or that would put me in jail, but certainly enough to put me in a lost eternity, if not for Jesus’ blood. I strongly strongly strongly disagree that it’s not up to the parents to keep their kids safe. It is absolutely the parents job to keep the kids safe. If it’s not a safe environment at school, don’t let them go to school, if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming. Fair call out. Re-reading my post, it was a bit condescending. My bad. I will do better at re-reading before posting. I think you misinterpreted some of my points. I will try to clarify better. I hear you saying that you have no need to look into the origins of this faith. --By not looking into these things, it allows the friends and workers to continue the lie that it began on the shores of Galilee. I have heard it preached from the convention platform in recent years. If we look into these things for ourselves...we can stop perpetuating this lie. You may feel like some of these things are 'conspiracy theories'. Some seem far fetched. But who would have ever thought that our overseers were abusing children and raping women? It is ghastly and shocking. If we don't take the time to talk, to research, to ask questions--they DO seem like conspiracy theories. I was innocent at one time too. I do believe that many of the friends and workers are wonderful people who mean no harm and only want a relationship with God. Same for the financials. I also don't have an issue with the workers having decent things. But...if we keep preaching we are poor and homeless while having millions of dollars in the bank (in each state), we are not only, not going forth in faith--but we are being hypocrites. I go to meetings-so i am very well aware of whats going on on the surface and also whats going on behind the scenes. When i have brought my concerns to the workers and friends, i get the same brush off, the same answers every time. For years. No one want to face the issues, no one is really willing for change and no one wants to take responsibility. I suppose that is where i feel frustrated by a lot of the friends....they want to pretend that everything is perfect and fine. When the perp number is now at 400--that is alarming. Very alarming. We are not a large church. Something deep is wrong. I appreciate that you are here to learn more and bring a different point of view. But please don't criticize those of us who are trying our best to keep our faith and also pointing out that there are flaws that need to be fixed. It is a very hard thing to speak up in this faith. Its very hard to disagree and voice that with the workers. You misunderstood my point on parents keeping kids safe. I agree. It is the parents responsibility to do what we can to keep kids safe. 100%. My point was that putting all the responsibility on the parents and kids is a form of victim shaming and not taking responsibility. It is not the kids responsibility to keep themselves safe from predators! They get to be kids. If the workers are aware that even 1 person on their staff has allegations-they should be responsible in getting that person the help they need. We can educate our kids and ourselves. However, the workers need to vet their staff better then they have been. They should never invite someone with CSA history into a home or area with children. With the perp number at 400, im unsure that convention is a safe place. and that makes me very sad because i always felt it was the safest place.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 21, 2023 15:25:39 GMT -5
I don’t enjoy your condescending tone at all, but I’ll let it pass this time. I think you assume that just because I don’t buy into all of the money and worker/truth conspiracies, or don’t come to the same conclusions as you (or this echo chamber forum of mostly exes and bitter exes posting) that I’m somehow not educated or aware or naïve, or have my head in the sand. I find it a little ironic how those outside of the faith (and many for many many decades) think they have a better pulse and understanding on everything than those that are in it, who actually have conversations with the friends and conversations with the workers and see things and hear things. The ins and outs. God and His way are the biggest part my life and has been all of my life. And no, I haven’t experience some of the things that a lot of those outside of the faith have faced, but the a lot of people on here have completely built up an unrealistic, exaggerated idea of what’s is going on, in my opinion. And this forum is a great environment to feed that, to feed off of each other and the negative in the rumors and the untrue and the biased opinions, and build that up. But I am not surprised at the least bit. Or maybe I should be shocked and surprised by that, since, you know, I’m such a shallow thinker. a few months ago, I had a night with my good friend, who is in the work. he had a little sticker on his suitcase. I teased him about it and asked him why it was on there. He said one of the wealthy friends bought it, didn’t like it and gave it to him, and he put a little sticker over the label because he was embarrassed to drag it into the friends house because it was that luxury name brand. I heard from a different workers that they were in Mexico for a while and they felt guilty driving a nice filled car (not nice to usa but nice in Mexico) that the friends gave them driving into some of the Poorer friends driveways. i don’t have a problem with nice gifts and quality clothes, especially when you have a few sets. I have an iPhone, why can’t the workers have an iPhone? I find it super hilarious that some people who don’t even believe in the ministry, or the truth get really caught up and upset on the workers having it too nice. Of all the things to complain about! I don’t assume you are like that, but I have heard that…it’s almost like they would feel better if they wore rags around. As a friend, I am not concerned about the financials, so that doesn’t bother me. And yes, I do believe the DB is a bizarre situation. Some thing to remember too is that this big storm and exposure is 70+ years of building up and Mishandling it. Just as the me too movement was a big bomb, that’s what this is. I’m glad, as this has no place in the bride of Christ. And As apart of the church, we are supposed to be Readying the bride for the Lords return. Purifying it by trying to purify ourselves. I’m so thankful for the blood of Jesus that removes the blemishes from my garment, as I have many myself. Thankfully, none of my blemishes affects anyone else or that would put me in jail, but certainly enough to put me in a lost eternity, if not for Jesus’ blood. I strongly strongly strongly disagree that it’s not up to the parents to keep their kids safe. It is absolutely the parents job to keep the kids safe. If it’s not a safe environment at school, don’t let them go to school, if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming. Fair call out. Re-reading my post, it was a bit condescending. My bad. I will do better at re-reading before posting. I think you misinterpreted some of my points. I will try to clarify better. I hear you saying that you have no need to look into the origins of this faith. --By not looking into these things, it allows the friends and workers to continue the lie that it began on the shores of Galilee. I have heard it preached from the convention platform in recent years. If we look into these things for ourselves...we can stop perpetuating this lie. You may feel like some of these things are 'conspiracy theories'. Some seem far fetched. But who would have ever thought that our overseers were abusing children and raping women? It is ghastly and shocking. If we don't take the time to talk, to research, to ask questions--they DO seem like conspiracy theories. I was innocent at one time too. I do believe that many of the friends and workers are wonderful people who mean no harm and only want a relationship with God. Same for the financials. I also don't have an issue with the workers having decent things. But...if we keep preaching we are poor and homeless while having millions of dollars in the bank (in each state), we are not only, not going forth in faith--but we are being hypocrites. I go to meetings-so i am very well aware of whats going on on the surface and also whats going on behind the scenes. When i have brought my concerns to the workers and friends, i get the same brush off, the same answers every time. For years. No one want to face the issues, no one is really willing for change and no one wants to take responsibility. I suppose that is where i feel frustrated by a lot of the friends....they want to pretend that everything is perfect and fine. When the perp number is now at 400--that is alarming. Very alarming. We are not a large church. Something deep is wrong. I appreciate that you are here to learn more and bring a different point of view. But please don't criticize those of us who are trying our best to keep our faith and also pointing out that there are flaws that need to be fixed. It is a very hard thing to speak up in this faith. Its very hard to disagree and voice that with the workers. You misunderstood my point on parents keeping kids safe. I agree. It is the parents responsibility to do what we can to keep kids safe. 100%. My point was that putting all the responsibility on the parents and kids is a form of victim shaming and not taking responsibility. It is not the kids responsibility to keep themselves safe from predators! They get to be kids. If the workers are aware that even 1 person on their staff has allegations-they should be responsible in getting that person the help they need. We can educate our kids and ourselves. However, the workers need to vet their staff better then they have been. They should never invite someone with CSA history into a home or area with children. With the perp number at 400, im unsure that convention is a safe place. and that makes me very sad because i always felt it was the safest place. Well said Jane.
Some may feel that people like us are attacking the church from within. We are not. It is being attacked by the hypocrites, criminals and enablers within. Be those workers, elders or friends.
I am seeing evidence of a seige mentality in some too. As you said, perpetuating the myth is the logical outcome of not acknowledging and bringing out into the open, the beginnings, and the various splits, in the church. People have to live in the real world, not the legend.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 21, 2023 16:58:23 GMT -5
Children should be safe on convention grounds . It is a sacred place . However it is not , hasn’t been for years and years . 33 years ago it was not safe . My oldest professed at convention at age 9 . She was CSA just a hour after professing . She was there with my parents . Bitter ex’s Not bitter at all . That phrase has no place to be used to stamp all of us as bitter . Finance’s absolutely need to be addressed . A example ……. From 2005 - 2019 I took my parents to convention and all meetings . My father was handicapped , he only had one hip . Then Alzheimer’s disease My mom Parkinson’s disease . I made sure my parents had the opportunity to be with the friends and enjoy the fellowship . It was the least I could do , as they had adopted me and I loved them so much . So I dressed appropriately . Long skirt’s and proper shirts to cover some of my tattoos . I had been looking at a skirt I really wanted , however it was way above my budget . $144.00 dollars . Yet I see a sister worker wearing the skirt I wanted so badly . However I still have children at home , my granddaughter and foster kids and I can’t afford a luxury like that . So finically they need to be held accountable . Dean is a great example of using money for evil deeds . There were times I went without a proper meal , but I made sure my kids ate well . My girls would phone their grandparents behind my back and ask for groceries . I would not ask my parents for money . I was a single parent . I am thinking wow that must be awesome to have those funds . Funds which my parents gave faithfully . Willis Propp had a platinum credit card . It was a one hundred thousand limit . WHEN THE ALBERTA MESS HAPPENED……… they had to disclose the financial details . The worker’s were not happy . To say the least , so they excommunicated those friends . That is bitter ! Finally I have no idea why this bitter ex thread is bashing us . Not bitter but well aware of what happens behind the scenes . Not sure why COVID-19 is being discussed I lost my 39 year old daughter to COVID-19 . Yes she died August 18th 2020 . A early victim , no vaccinations available then . Had there been , I may not have lost my daughter to COVID-19 . She left a daughter , a granddaughter and her grandma and sister , plus me . I found her husband on the floor on August 24th . Yet I am circled by professing people whom made it a little easier to navigate through those difficult days , and care for my mom when I left town during that time .. In the journey , when I needed to make a decision regarding my parents , I went to their elder for advice . Not bitter ! However some of the friends are very bitter about this CSA/SA NIGHTMARE ! Sure there are bitter ex’s but don’t paint all of us with that term . Please and thank you 🙏
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Peony
New Member
Posts: 16
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Post by Peony on May 21, 2023 17:07:57 GMT -5
I find it a little ironic how those outside of the faith (and many for many many decades) think they have a better pulse and understanding on everything than those that are in it, who actually have conversations with the friends and conversations with the workers and see things and hear things. ... Hi. I have been going to meeting for my whole life - and I'm a senior citizen now - and I'm a third generation, which means absolutely nothing in terms of my own salvation. And I'm a long-time reader here. Please stop referring to this site as an echo chamber forum of mostly exes and bitter exes posting; that is your perception only, not fact. I see people - in and out - trying to make sure this fellowship does not stay corrupted. There are no enemies, no bitter exes, that have brought this on us, only ourselves, fearful of power and reticent to address (even heinous) problems. Luke 12:1-3 is happening now.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 21, 2023 17:29:36 GMT -5
Hi. I have been going to meeting for my whole life - and I'm a senior citizen now - and I'm a third generation, which means absolutely nothing in terms of my own salvation. And I'm a long-time reader here. Please stop referring to this site as an echo chamber forum of mostly exes and bitter exes posting; that is your perception only, not fact. I see people - in and out - trying to make sure this fellowship does not stay corrupted. There are no enemies, no bitter exes, that have brought this on us, only ourselves, fearful of power and reticent to address (even heinous) problems. Luke 12:1-3 is happening now. I too am "third-gen" and have been lurking on here for years. Those verses were the very first thing I thought of when everything started hitting the proverbial fan. whew had to pull my Bible out for that one . Seems correct .
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Post by chuck on May 21, 2023 18:07:19 GMT -5
"I feel really bad for those that have experience terrible things in our faith and been treated so poorly" You might want to think about that statement. How about investigating why "our faith" has the proclivity to hurt people so then you wont have to feel sorry for them in the first place........ I do not think the truth has a proclivity to hurt people. I believe that any organization with tens of thousands of humans involved are going to people act and speak wrongly, and have those offended. Humans of all organizations offend people. Your favorite organizations, business, and even those you love (mine too) have caused a lot of hurt and damage. Any company, politics, group, religion, school, business, etc has CSA and bad actors. Anywhere there are humans, there is human nature and there will be problems, worldwide. I don’t know how many friends are in the truth, but it’s tens and tens of thousands. So yes, I’m not surprised that there are some that are offended from those within the truth. That absolutely does not make it right, and I can be sorry for those hurt, while also believing there’s not a systemic problem that I have seen. To start with I am going to pull you up on the use of this phrase "the truth", that's extremely hubris of you, the real truth doesn't have CSA swept under the rug and lurking in the corners amongst other improper proclivities......... Throughout my lifetime to date any organisations that I have voluntarily been involved in collectively doesn't rate in child abuse compared to "the truth" as you call it......
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Post by chuck on May 21, 2023 18:41:43 GMT -5
I think you are adorable and I worry that if you continue on this forum and continue learning...you will realize how innocent you are to this faith and the 'behind the scenes' activities. It is a nice life to stick to the surface of this faith. Don't say i didn't warn you. -If you really think that meetings and conventions are safe and 'no opportunity' for CSA, please google CSA grooming. Meetings, conventions, potlucks are where the grooming of the child and parents start. And...if you want a real deep dive...look into (Worker) from CA. Look where and how he raped the friends children. I don't think you will feel super safe after that TRUE STORY read. I have several others I can have you read, if that isn't enough for you. -You say that education is the a way to fight CSA. Yes. We can be having conversations and learning. But it doesn't take a 'training' to know to report CSA. (eye roll). The BEST action is to take all 250+ perp and ask them to no longer be around children. Anywhere. Ever. If the overseers did a deep clean of their staff, we would ALL feel much safer and it would rebuild trust. I'm not sure where you live, but i highly encourage you to ask your local workers and overseers to review all the 'accusations' of those on their staff, local elders and friends (esp those with CSA records) and consider the options. I guarantee every overseer knows a min of 5-10 perps off the top of their head. Why is it all the children and parents responsibility to clean up this mess? We are not the ones who are hiding pedophiles. We are not the ones ignoring police reports. We are not the ones who are allowing men who have been charged with child porn to be in meetings or be elders. Yeah, we can talk to our kids--but its not our kids responsibility. The overseers should not be sending known perverts into our homes. period. -I also find your innocence about the financials cute. Are you comfortable with each state/province having millions of dollars? Are you okay with the workers saying they are 'poor and homeless' and yet wear Armani suits, own the latest iphones and have plenty of homes and back up homes to stay in? Do you honestly think that DB is a 'rare and bizarre' incident? Keep reading on this site for other financial indescretions (Willis Prop, Jack Price etc). Have you noticed that the workers have been willing to talk about CSA but NONE have mentioned financials? Not a word. Interesting, no? Where is the transparency there? I don’t enjoy your condescending tone at all, but I’ll let it pass this time. I think you assume that just because I don’t buy into all of the money and worker/truth conspiracies, or don’t come to the same conclusions as you (or this echo chamber forum of mostly exes and bitter exes posting) that I’m somehow not educated or aware or naïve, or have my head in the sand. I find it a little ironic how those outside of the faith (and many for many many decades) think they have a better pulse and understanding on everything than those that are in it, who actually have conversations with the friends and conversations with the workers and see things and hear things. The ins and outs. God and His way are the biggest part my life and has been all of my life. And no, I haven’t experience some of the things that a lot of those outside of the faith have faced, but the a lot of people on here have completely built up an unrealistic, exaggerated idea of what’s is going on, in my opinion. And this forum is a great environment to feed that, to feed off of each other and the negative in the rumors and the untrue and the biased opinions, and build that up. But I am not surprised at the least bit. Or maybe I should be shocked and surprised by that, since, you know, I’m such a shallow thinker. a few months ago, I had a night with my good friend, who is in the work. he had a little sticker on his suitcase. I teased him about it and asked him why it was on there. He said one of the wealthy friends bought it, didn’t like it and gave it to him, and he put a little sticker over the label because he was embarrassed to drag it into the friends house because it was that luxury name brand. I heard from a different workers that they were in Mexico for a while and they felt guilty driving a nice filled car (not nice to usa but nice in Mexico) that the friends gave them driving into some of the Poorer friends driveways. i don’t have a problem with nice gifts and quality clothes, especially when you have a few sets. I have an iPhone, why can’t the workers have an iPhone? I find it super hilarious that some people who don’t even believe in the ministry, or the truth get really caught up and upset on the workers having it too nice. Of all the things to complain about! I don’t assume you are like that, but I have heard that…it’s almost like they would feel better if they wore rags around. As a friend, I am not concerned about the financials, so that doesn’t bother me. And yes, I do believe the DB is a bizarre situation. Some thing to remember too is that this big storm and exposure is 70+ years of building up and Mishandling it. Just as the me too movement was a big bomb, that’s what this is. I’m glad, as this has no place in the bride of Christ. And As apart of the church, we are supposed to be Readying the bride for the Lords return. Purifying it by trying to purify ourselves. I’m so thankful for the blood of Jesus that removes the blemishes from my garment, as I have many myself. Thankfully, none of my blemishes affects anyone else or that would put me in jail, but certainly enough to put me in a lost eternity, if not for Jesus’ blood. I strongly strongly strongly disagree that it’s not up to the parents to keep their kids safe. It is absolutely the parents job to keep the kids safe. If it’s not a safe environment at school, don’t let them go to school, if it’s not a safe environment with the friends or workers or family members or neighbors, it’s the parents responsibility to do what’s in the best interest for them and the kids. If parents think it’s not a safe environment to go to convention, don’t go to convention. There’s a risk everywhere and with everything, parenting is all about risk tolerance. There’s a risk to the child in other ways of locking them in their room until they’re adults. We just had Covid we’re 50% of the country was horrified and never left the house and wore masks and vaccines, and the other 50% didn’t think it was the end of the world. Neither were right (except in their own eyes) it was just how they saw risk and how much risk they were willing to tolerate. Driving a car is a big risk, statistically, but We all take that risk. I can’t tell you that there’s no risk of having workers in your home overnight. But you can’t tell me it’s a big enough risk to where I can’t take it. And I am very aware and educated on the past months (though i need to learn more) about grooming. Have you stopped to think how much money it takes to make the 2x2 system function every year?. I bet the airline bill alone is well over $1000000 every year. Most of that is probably workers flitting around on overseas convention tours.....And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues......zero finacial transparency and as we have seen also in control of some sickos and you dont even bat an eyelid and thinks its all ok...... I would say you have you head in the sand if you think your religious systems is "the truth".
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Post by Grant on May 21, 2023 20:42:43 GMT -5
I do not think the truth has a proclivity to hurt people. I believe that any organization with tens of thousands of humans involved are going to people act and speak wrongly, and have those offended. Humans of all organizations offend people. Your favorite organizations, business, and even those you love (mine too) have caused a lot of hurt and damage. Any company, politics, group, religion, school, business, etc has CSA and bad actors. Anywhere there are humans, there is human nature and there will be problems, worldwide. I don’t know how many friends are in the truth, but it’s tens and tens of thousands. So yes, I’m not surprised that there are some that are offended from those within the truth. That absolutely does not make it right, and I can be sorry for those hurt, while also believing there’s not a systemic problem that I have seen. To start with I am going to pull you up on the use of this phrase "the truth", that's extremely hubris of you, the real truth doesn't have CSA swept under the rug and lurking in the corners amongst other improper proclivities......... Throughout my lifetime to date any organisations that I have voluntarily been involved in collectively doesn't rate in child abuse compared to "the truth" as you call it...... I agree, it makes me cringe when people call it the truth. The JWs and other cults do the same. It's a trait among these group. All claiming to be the truth. Jesus is the truth not a ministry. Another is the way, same thing.
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