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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2023 18:50:57 GMT -5
Here is the background to this upcoming meeting (letter from Lyle). And here is your opportunity to suggest to Lyle and those in attendance what should be on the agenda of this meeting! Letter by Lyle Schober, Overseer of Texas and New Mexico – April 2023Read by Elders to Sunday Meetings, April 23, 2023
Dear Texas and New Mexico friends and workers, It seems clear that there needs to be some communication from us about what is happening in our quest for transparency in the process for protecting the vulnerable among our fellowship. We have taken this challenge seriously and feel we are on the road that leads to safety. Where this road will lead us is a bit uncertain at this time and it will require patience from all of us, but maybe by sharing our most recent endeavors, we can keep you abreast of our efforts. The workers in New Mexico and Texas will meet together in Round Rock May 11-13. These three days we have sessions planned that will incorporate professionals from varying fields of expertise presenting information on a variety of topics, including but not limited to Sexual Abuse and CSA (Child Sexual Abuse). We are also researching ways to make our ministry more effective and open to the challenges of our generation. We are facing difficult challenges, but we believe that this pursuit, which is under the direction of the Spirit, is a step in the process of assuring our best days are still ahead. Please feel free to ask us about the content of our time together after we return to the fields following our workshop. The Ministry Safe program has been approved by the State of Texas to train individuals to increase awareness of child sexual abuse. It helps everyone working with children to recognize grooming behaviors that abusers use to gain access to a child, how the abuser gains trust of the child, the irrational thinking, the behavior of a child suffering, and what action must be taken to stop abuse. We have made an ambitious effort to assure that all our workers are certified with the MinistrySafe program. We have also made a point of getting the elders and their wives enrolled and certified in this program. One of our friends in Texas is helping us with this project. We encourage any parents ....
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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2023 18:52:41 GMT -5
From the other thread: Lyle Schober: "It seems clear that there needs to be some communication from us about what is happening in our quest for transparency in the process for protecting the vulnerable among our fellowship." As admirable as this truly is, "the process for protecting the vulnerable among our fellowship", should not the focus also be on addressing the reason why we have victims of abuse (CSA, SA, overseer-on-worker, young sister workers' experiences with over-bearing companions, shunning of 'friends', etc. etc.)? That is, to address the issue AT ITS CORE. Perhaps something like "the process for stamping out ALL forms of immorality, whether illegal or not - including accountability with finances - within the current ministry" (addressing current personnel, habits and traditions, doctrine, getting back to scripture, etc.). It will be a busy three days! (I know many good F&W will be praying for those who attend that 3 day meeting in May)
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 25, 2023 19:07:00 GMT -5
Please include an initial training workshop on speaking transparently about lusting after internet porn, being open about it (not keeping it a secret), implementing programs that encourage conversations around porn victories for some and struggles for others, and people praying together to overcome these tools of the enemy, in addition to professional therapy.
Why?
Internet Porn is destroying marriages, families, and both physical and spiritual lives. It’s also a problem that requires education for celibate workers - they need education on how to be celibate and stay away from Internet Porn, if they can’t do this they shouldn’t be in the work until they can.
Workers are celibate
They stay in our homes
They ask for our Wi-Fi password
They often stay in our children’s bedroom while our kids stay on the floor of our room.
We all go to bed.
They get bored
They get on the Internet
What’s next?
Also, clearly define grace and when it’s given.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 25, 2023 20:08:56 GMT -5
I think a CORE issue needs to be addressed in how to stop the culture of secrecy. Not just with workers, but with friends too.
Secrecy not only discourages victims from coming forward, it discourages the abuses being dealt with and it also discourages transparency. People NEED to be encouraged to educate themselves and talk freely with one another about this issue. I know that many people don't like to talk about it and they feel uncomfortable.....BUT they NEED to talk about it. It won't go away with silence.
Younger generations are more comfortable talking about it. The older generations, well they were brought up to think it wasn't decent.
Another thing is the exclusive mindset. Why? Because victims are LESS likely to come forward if they feel their eternal salvation is on the line.
Yes, immediate safety is first. But some soul searching in why it got to this point and hasn't been addressed sooner needs to happen.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 25, 2023 20:15:18 GMT -5
The parents. The parents are SOOOOooo important here. Do the parents promote putting workers on pedestals? Is there still a culture in the truth that does that?
Because when someone is highly esteemed and uses that authority to abuse others....that's just wrong. The workers are humans just like any other human. All Christians may be called to minister, and do; not just workers. The friends need to be encouraged to step up and realize they shouldn't be lazy with their spirituality and not just depend on the workers to 'feed' them. Not saying all friends do that, but it probably can be improved upon. What are the parents teaching the kids? What are they teaching the kids about workers and how to view and treat workers? I know what I was taught, and I totally disagree with it: "Don't question the workers."
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 25, 2023 20:18:19 GMT -5
Would friends and workers just rather "fit in" and "fill their place", rather than face the facts?
Are they just PLACE HOLDERS until the day they die 'faithful'? No.....it shouldn't be that way.
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Post by Admin on Apr 25, 2023 22:36:02 GMT -5
Preach THE GOSPEL (according to the scriptures), not in any way THE SYSTEM (which, let's face it, is and always has been Irvine's system from when he left the Faith Mission).
To my thinking, a calling to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ must be the most exciting vocation possible. Everything else to do with this temporal life a far distant, receding desire.
Suggested agenda item for 11-13 May meeting: Workers, get back to embracing that excitement and power of preaching the scriptural gospel. Or get out!
P.S. there's nothing wrong with a good system or form of worship and fellowship, it's just not the gospel.
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Post by jonathan on Apr 26, 2023 1:39:33 GMT -5
While all sorts of programs are welcome and serve their purpose in their place, and I welcome them. I still feel we have to get to the core of the matter. Perhaps there has been too much assuming the workers know the basic principles. Well, if they had we wouldn't be where we are now!
A few points, in no way limited to this very short list:
Explain fully and clearly to the workers the importance of scripture and sound doctrine.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers what the work is about.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers what is expected of them.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers what their responsibility is.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers the line and boundaries they should respect.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers the high level of integrity that is required so they can be trusted.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to feed the flock and how to labor for the flock.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to properly die to self and deny self.
Explain fully and clearly to the workers what a true servant is, and what the true spirit of service is.
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Post by jonathan on Apr 26, 2023 1:43:32 GMT -5
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Post by mountain on Apr 26, 2023 4:03:09 GMT -5
Two very important things do not appear to be considered:
1) Deny temptation
2) Deny opportunity
These are the first steps towards reducing criminality and abuses. The other two, which are receiving some consideration are:
3) Increase awareness
4) Education
This 2 x 2 approach should be the 2x2 approach.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 26, 2023 13:53:33 GMT -5
Lyle's meeting should consider irvine's words about his experiment.
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Post by mdm on Apr 26, 2023 15:44:57 GMT -5
From the other thread: Lyle Schober: "It seems clear that there needs to be some communication from us about what is happening in our quest for transparency in the process for protecting the vulnerable among our fellowship." As admirable as this truly is, "the process for protecting the vulnerable among our fellowship", should not the focus also be on addressing the reason why we have victims of abuse (CSA, SA, overseer-on-worker, young sister workers' experiences with over-bearing companions, shunning of 'friends', etc. etc.)? That is, to address the issue AT ITS CORE. Perhaps something like "the process for stamping out ALL forms of immorality, whether illegal or not - including accountability with finances - within the current ministry" (addressing current personnel, habits and traditions, doctrine, getting back to scripture, etc.). It will be a busy three days! (I know many good F&W will be praying for those who attend that 3 day meeting in May) The first step would be to share with his staff the recent letters sent out by Alanna, by parents of other sister workers and by the friends to Vancouver workers, and publicly acknowledge and denounce the practice of leaving the immoral and abusers in the work while silencing and stigmatizing complaints against them. Lyle's influence may not extend beyond TX and NM, but that would at least be doing what's in his power to denounce and change this culture of permitting abuse and immorality. Friends and workers need to know that these things happen, that such and such sister worker or friend isn't "lying," and victims or witnesses need to feel safe to report both abuse and immorality in the ministry and know that there will be consequences - not to them, but to the perpetrator.
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 26, 2023 16:02:29 GMT -5
While all sorts of programs are welcome and serve their purpose in their place, and I welcome them. I still feel we have to get to the core of the matter. Perhaps there has been too much assuming the workers know the basic principles. Well, if they had we wouldn't be where we are now! A few points, in no way limited to this very short list: Explain fully and clearly to the workers the importance of scripture and sound doctrine. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what the work is about. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what is expected of them. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what their responsibility is. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the line and boundaries they should respect. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the high level of integrity that is required so they can be trusted. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to feed the flock and how to labor for the flock. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to properly die to self and deny self. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what a true servant is, and what the true spirit of service is. This might be covered in your list but I want to make sure a few things are not left out. Preferably in this order too… Explain what grace is. Explain when we receive grace is. Explain who is given over to a reprobate mind. Explain what raising holy hands means Explain why David danced, sang, and had instruments playing and people singing praises to the ark - why did they do that? Explain what it means to stand on the street corner to be seen of men and clearly differentiate how that is different than people in churches who raise their hands and sing and sometimes cry to music about God played by paid musicians and paid singers. Explain the gifts of the spirit and how they work and why Paul wanted all Christians to use these grifts. Explain baptism of fire. Explain what Luke 22:35-36 means. Specifically what was changing here, who was Jesus asking the disciples for to preach to, what changes was Jesus making? Why would he make that change? Did anything change after this? Explain what Corinth was like and why there was so much discussion about sex in Corinthians. Explain why Paul preached alone, with one companion, and with more companions. Explain why Paul talked about collecting money to help others so much. Explain if Peter was a good husband that met his wife’s needs. Explain if Peter was able to preach the gospel and meet his wife’s needs. Explain if it’s important for women to have a covering and what their hair is in respect to their covering Explain why it’s acceptable to braid hair Explain why women are not silent in the church Explain why women are not overseers Explain why even at our best we are as filthy rags. Explain what it means when we are told that God and Jesus did all this for us so that we would praise and worship Him. Remind us when we get grace again? What does being saved cause us to do? Could the realization that we are saved by Jesus cause someone to love others and love God with all their heart mind and soul to the point that they would praise and worship Him with joy? I’ll probably come up with more later but when these are answered could I get the “gems”?
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on Apr 26, 2023 18:05:55 GMT -5
They gotta lotta ‘splainin’ to do. Lol
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Post by mdm on Apr 26, 2023 18:20:12 GMT -5
In 2017, Lyle sent out a letter to the friends in TX regarding the dress code. A letter stating that immorality and abuse in the ministry will no longer be tolerated, and asking the friends and workers (especially sister workers!) to report to him cases of inappropriate behavior in the ministry would be just as doable.
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 26, 2023 18:23:38 GMT -5
In 2017, Lyle sent out a letter to the friends in TX regarding women's clothing. A letter stating that immorality and abuse in the ministry will no longer be tolerated, and asking the friends and workers (especially sister workers!) to report to him cases of inappropriate behavior in the ministry would be just as doable. If he solved the issue in 2017, the meeting will probably be a set of reminders then. What did the letter say about men’s clothes? And women’s clothes for that matter?
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Post by snow on Apr 26, 2023 18:35:19 GMT -5
While all sorts of programs are welcome and serve their purpose in their place, and I welcome them. I still feel we have to get to the core of the matter. Perhaps there has been too much assuming the workers know the basic principles. Well, if they had we wouldn't be where we are now! A few points, in no way limited to this very short list: Explain fully and clearly to the workers the importance of scripture and sound doctrine. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what the work is about. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what is expected of them. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what their responsibility is. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the line and boundaries they should respect. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the high level of integrity that is required so they can be trusted. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to feed the flock and how to labor for the flock. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to properly die to self and deny self. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what a true servant is, and what the true spirit of service is. Well what you have stated makes sense. It's always good to know what a job description entails. But I have a question. Do you think that Dean Bruer, Mark Huddle and all the others that are being exposed lately, didn't know full and clearly all those things? And just ignored them? That's what predators do.
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Post by mdm on Apr 26, 2023 18:40:56 GMT -5
In 2017, Lyle sent out a letter to the friends in TX regarding women's clothing. A letter stating that immorality and abuse in the ministry will no longer be tolerated, and asking the friends and workers (especially sister workers!) to report to him cases of inappropriate behavior in the ministry would be just as doable. If he solved the issue in 2017, the meeting will probably be a set of reminders then. What did the letter say about men’s clothes? And women’s clothes for that matter? www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_later/schober.php#2017
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Post by eyedeetentee on Apr 26, 2023 19:04:05 GMT -5
I have a news flash for you and you're not going to like it. (I considered making a new post in one of those places down there at the bottom, but here we are.)
Religion is the cause of all of these problems. Don't believe it? Step back and look around a little.
CSA in your church has been discussed in here for nearly twenty years and you're acting like it just became an issue yesterday. Good grief. You've been climbing a ladder with no rungs. You're not getting anywhere. You're not accomplishing squat. "We're having a meeting to discuss a meeting about a meeting to meet with folks about a meeting to discuss a meeting." Yeah, that's working great for you.
All of the keystrokes, all of the jabbering, and you still have innocent kids ... who hopefully run as far away as they can from religion. I really feel for permanently scarred children. You have no idea, or evidently do not care, how damaged those kids are and will be. It's permanent. It's not a scar or an oops or whatever the heck.
Kids! You deserve better! Get out!!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 26, 2023 19:27:06 GMT -5
I have a news flash for you and you're not going to like it. (I considered making a new post in one of those places down there at the bottom, but here we are.) Religion is the cause of all of these problems. Don't believe it? Step back and look around a little. CSA in your church has been discussed in here for nearly twenty years and you're acting like it just became an issue yesterday. Good grief. You've been climbing a ladder with no rungs. You're not getting anywhere. You're not accomplishing squat. "We're having a meeting to discuss a meeting about a meeting to meet with folks about a meeting to discuss a meeting." Yeah, that's working great for you. All of the keystrokes, all of the jabbering, and you still have innocent kids ... who hopefully run as far away as they can from religion. I really feel for permanently scarred children. You have no idea, or evidently do not care, how damaged those kids are and will be. It's permanent. It's not a scar or an oops or whatever the heck. Kids! You deserve better! Get out!! All religion is based on mythology and a hefty dose of wishful thinking. They are reaping the rewards of treating mythology as truth.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 26, 2023 19:28:51 GMT -5
Well what you have stated makes sense. It's always good to know what a job description entails. But I have a question. Do you think that Dean Bruer, Mark Huddle and all the others that are being exposed lately, didn't know full and clearly all those things? And just ignored them? That's what predators do. Yep. That's what predators do. Here is something I have wondered a little about in the past, but a lot more lately since this most recent Dean Bruer et. al. mess: We know that the vast majority of people in the F&W's are pretty good people, as far as people go. Kind of well-meaning, kind of innocent, relatively unsophisticated. Do predators sense this? A few decades ago, someone professed in one of the Prairie Provinces in Canada. He was kind of personable, well off, very generous with his $$, and brought a lot of his contacts to gospel meetings. I remember a sister worker exhorting us all that "we should be more like him". It turned out that he was a predator, and he found easy prey. He had to know pickings were good, from the very beginning.
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jane
Junior Member
Posts: 89
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Post by jane on Apr 26, 2023 19:31:08 GMT -5
Dress codes are about control. And it has worked very well in the past, with this faith. But i think those days are coming to an end.
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 26, 2023 20:26:58 GMT -5
In 2017, Lyle sent out a letter to the friends in TX regarding the dress code. A letter stating that immorality and abuse in the ministry will no longer be tolerated, and asking the friends and workers (especially sister workers!) to report to him cases of inappropriate behavior in the ministry would be just as doable. This is not a dress code, this I know for the head worker told me so. I love how he references prisons with specific details on dress code as his rationale.
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Post by mdm on Apr 26, 2023 20:27:16 GMT -5
Dress codes are about control. And it has worked very well in the past, with this faith. But i think those days are coming to an end. Knowing Lyle, this letter wasn't about control. It was sincere and reflects what he honestly believes. We can discuss if it was misguided or not, but hopefully not on this thread.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 20:27:34 GMT -5
Religion is the cause of all of these problems. Don't believe it? Step back and look around a little. That would be incorrect.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2023 20:28:59 GMT -5
Well what you have stated makes sense. It's always good to know what a job description entails. But I have a question. Do you think that Dean Bruer, Mark Huddle and all the others that are being exposed lately, didn't know full and clearly all those things? And just ignored them? That's what predators do. Yep. That's what predators do. Here is something I have wondered a little about in the past, but a lot more lately since this most recent Dean Bruer et. al. mess: We know that the vast majority of people in the F&W's are pretty good people, as far as people go. Kind of well-meaning, kind of innocent, relatively unsophisticated. Do predators sense this? A few decades ago, someone professed in one of the Prairie Provinces in Canada. He was kind of personable, well off, very generous with his $$, and brought a lot of his contacts to gospel meetings. I remember a sister worker exhorting us all that "we should be more like him". It turned out that he was a predator, and he found easy prey. He had to know pickings were good, from the very beginning. Yes, 2 legged predators can sense who and when to strike....
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 26, 2023 22:21:41 GMT -5
Installation of porn blockers on all workers phones and computers.
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 26, 2023 23:51:56 GMT -5
I hear whispers of the exclusivity going away in the 2x2 way from friends in the way. Then, I read Lyle Schober’s email dated 3/28/2023 when addressing Dean Bruer and his double life. “As members of this ministry, we want to assure you of how much we love and care for you. We are heartbroken by the disgrace of human failure, but our faith in the Lord’s ministry is unchanged. This is the ministry that our Lord established in the earth. Human failure can compromise its testimony, but it cannot undermine its validity. Judas Iscariot was also a part of this ministry, but in the wake of his betrayal the Holy Spirit still impelled this same ministry forward.” wingsfortruth.info/2023/03/30/lyle-schober-letter-to-texas-friends-march-2023/I don’t know why this feels so wrong or why I am surprised but this is just so sad. I really can’t find the words. It’s like a PR stunt
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