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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 0:49:37 GMT -5
Installation of porn blockers on all workers phones and computers. Police state comes to mind.
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Post by chuck on Apr 27, 2023 2:46:23 GMT -5
While all sorts of programs are welcome and serve their purpose in their place, and I welcome them. I still feel we have to get to the core of the matter. Perhaps there has been too much assuming the workers know the basic principles. Well, if they had we wouldn't be where we are now! A few points, in no way limited to this very short list: Explain fully and clearly to the workers the importance of scripture and sound doctrine. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what the work is about. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what is expected of them. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what their responsibility is. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the line and boundaries they should respect. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the high level of integrity that is required so they can be trusted. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to feed the flock and how to labor for the flock. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to properly die to self and deny self. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what a true servant is, and what the true spirit of service is. Dying to self in its current form would render the system and its creeds irrelevant..........not something they are prepared to do Im afraid.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 27, 2023 3:39:34 GMT -5
Installation of porn blockers on all workers phones and computers. Police state comes to mind. I am not so sure on that. If one breaks it down to an employment issue and they have been warned not to access certain sites then they could be fired. That's what happens in real life.
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Post by Umfolozi on Apr 27, 2023 7:22:19 GMT -5
Oh my yes! Admin that's the key, they need to start preaching the Gospel according to scripture! The one they are preaching now with all the add ons is another gospel as Paul said, and therefore no gospel at all!!!The way one worships and the way one's ministry functions are not part of God's gospel.We are saved, justified and given the Holy Spirit by placing our faith in Christ's sacrifice, we are saved by God's grace, this is a gift.We are then sanctified by God's Spirit over time to bear fruit that proves we are indeed saved. All glory be to God! Take the other little gods of their pedestals! That's were the problem lies, the servant have become the master! What a shame.
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Post by Umfolozi on Apr 27, 2023 7:39:51 GMT -5
Some may have mentioned this all ready, as the worker Alanna said, a code of conduct should be drawn up to address proper conduct between workers and how to deal with all forms of abuse.Such a code of conduct would be good for interactions within the fellowship aswell and the handling of abuse.The way Jesus taught us how to deal with conflict should be adhired to strictly.But the "church" is not the workers, it should be everyone in your Sunday meeting who needs to listen when a brother or sister refuses to reconcile. Overseers in the meetings are unbiblical, the 1 century overseers was the elders( plural) in each little church.
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Post by jonathan on Apr 27, 2023 7:54:14 GMT -5
While all sorts of programs are welcome and serve their purpose in their place, and I welcome them. I still feel we have to get to the core of the matter. Perhaps there has been too much assuming the workers know the basic principles. Well, if they had we wouldn't be where we are now! A few points, in no way limited to this very short list: Explain fully and clearly to the workers the importance of scripture and sound doctrine. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what the work is about. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what is expected of them. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what their responsibility is. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the line and boundaries they should respect. Explain fully and clearly to the workers the high level of integrity that is required so they can be trusted. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to feed the flock and how to labor for the flock. Explain fully and clearly to the workers how to properly die to self and deny self. Explain fully and clearly to the workers what a true servant is, and what the true spirit of service is. Well what you have stated makes sense. It's always good to know what a job description entails. But I have a question. Do you think that Dean Bruer, Mark Huddle and all the others that are being exposed lately, didn't know full and clearly all those things? And just ignored them? That's what predators do. If predators in the work continue in the work, even if their trespass was a once-off long ago, I don't see how he could stand before God in all good conscience. If their conscience didn't bother them, their conscience was seared or even dead! No honour! Reminding workers of the fundamentals of the ministry could just be a good thing. It seems to me we workers in good standing can only do so much. We're limited in what we can do to fix this whole thing. But we have to do at least our part, then we can have liberty to leave the rest in faith in the Hands of the Almighty. Many have asked if the workers did not know what Dean Bruer has been doing all along before his death, then why did God wait so long before taking him in death? We don't know. We ourselves have many questions. But we can't do nothing until we get all the answers. Victims are suffering, and more potential victims can potentially suffer if this does not stop. This has been going on way too long. If this cleaning out process means the workers lists will be shorter with fewer workers then so be it. But we have to get back to what is right. A sick vine produces less and less. A good prune, good feeding and then it can produce again. The same vine, the same soil, the same Husbandman. There is hope, people, there is hope!
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Post by Dan on Apr 27, 2023 8:23:44 GMT -5
The effort is admirable, Lyle's letter to address the ongoing and previously silenced problem is a step in the right direction.
Openness instead of secrecy, accountability instead of sweeping it under the rug, alertness and monitoring, listening to complaints and immediately addressing a problem or threat, etc.
Awareness alone won't stop the problem, educating Workers with Safe Programs won't either. The whole system is ripe for abuse, temptation in close quarters leaves people susceptible to abuse.
I don't know what a bullet proof solution would look like, a church should be a sanctuary from such worldly predators, not a breeding ground.
Anytime you overly suppress people with ridiculous restrictions, it almost seems inevitable that you have recoil. People explode in the opposite direction when a system is too restraining.. It happened to me
Maybe some mobile homes could be set-up in cities where Workers frequently visit, it would give them some freedom, privacy, and some exclusivity or a break from constant intermingling. They never get a break from visiting and everyone needs some along time.
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 27, 2023 11:45:29 GMT -5
Installation of porn blockers on all workers phones and computers. Police state comes to mind. They do it on their own will. Just another tool to discourage porn viewing of workers in our children’s bedroom when they stay at our house. It doesn’t solve the problem completely but it limits the temptation threshold. It’s a real actionable thing that they can do in addition to their child abuse training.
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Post by mountain on Apr 27, 2023 11:53:10 GMT -5
Installation of porn blockers on all workers phones and computers. Mobile phones and laptops are far more evil than the TV and radio, as is being more than adequately proved. Forget the porn blockers on workers' phones and laptops. Get rid of the phones and laptops and follow the true example of what workers should carry with them. Any worker who carries a phone or laptop and is anti-TV is nothing more than a hypocrite.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2023 15:53:58 GMT -5
Well what you have stated makes sense. It's always good to know what a job description entails. But I have a question. Do you think that Dean Bruer, Mark Huddle and all the others that are being exposed lately, didn't know full and clearly all those things? And just ignored them? That's what predators do. Yep. That's what predators do. Here is something I have wondered a little about in the past, but a lot more lately since this most recent Dean Bruer et. al. mess: We know that the vast majority of people in the F&W's are pretty good people, as far as people go. Kind of well-meaning, kind of innocent, relatively unsophisticated. Do predators sense this? A few decades ago, someone professed in one of the Prairie Provinces in Canada. He was kind of personable, well off, very generous with his $$, and brought a lot of his contacts to gospel meetings. I remember a sister worker exhorting us all that "we should be more like him". It turned out that he was a predator, and he found easy prey. He had to know pickings were good, from the very beginning. There very well could be something to that. If you are one of the 'friends', other 'friends' tend to trust you more than anyone in the outside world. I remember a man in our community that came to meetings, professed, stayed in for about 5 years and then left. But not before he had gotten loans from many in the community of friends, which he never paid back. But I imagine because he was a newly found sheep to the fold, they all felt it was okay to lend him money, because they naively thought he would be honest and have some integrity because he now professed. So that kind of trust likely is seen by predators if they've been around the group and yes, they would feel like they could con them to believe they were someone they weren't.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2023 16:10:10 GMT -5
Well what you have stated makes sense. It's always good to know what a job description entails. But I have a question. Do you think that Dean Bruer, Mark Huddle and all the others that are being exposed lately, didn't know full and clearly all those things? And just ignored them? That's what predators do. If predators in the work continue in the work, even if their trespass was a once-off long ago, I don't see how he could stand before God in all good conscience. If their conscience didn't bother them, their conscience was seared or even dead! No honour! Reminding workers of the fundamentals of the ministry could just be a good thing. It seems to me we workers in good standing can only do so much. We're limited in what we can do to fix this whole thing. But we have to do at least our part, then we can have liberty to leave the rest in faith in the Hands of the Almighty. Many have asked if the workers did not know what Dean Bruer has been doing all along before his death, then why did God wait so long before taking him in death? We don't know. We ourselves have many questions. But we can't do nothing until we get all the answers. Victims are suffering, and more potential victims can potentially suffer if this does not stop. This has been going on way too long. If this cleaning out process means the workers lists will be shorter with fewer workers then so be it. But we have to get back to what is right. A sick vine produces less and less. A good prune, good feeding and then it can produce again. The same vine, the same soil, the same Husbandman. There is hope, people, there is hope! I have to agree with you that this does need to be explained to all new workers. That's a good start. It won't stop the predators though and there will be some. Anyone with that mindset will see the absolute trust the friends have in the workers and even in each other and overlook telling signs that predators give off. They will be dismissed merely because it's been inconceivable that a worker or even a professing person would do anything like that. I think now that it's so out in the open and obvious that it can and does happen there will make a big difference going forward. The friends will be more aware and less trusting. That's not a bad thing. Absolute trust is rarely a good thing. One thing that the F&W's can do is learn about the signs and learn to trust their instincts more. How many times do we see something and just have a gut feeling that something isn't quite right? But we then dismiss it because of who they are or we don't want to 'rock the boat'. Then we find out we had been right about that person. One of our greatest defenses against predators is to listen to that gut reaction. Something triggered it. There are so many stories about bad endings for people and they say after the fact that they felt something was wrong but dismissed it for a variety of reasons. I posted a link to a book and video talking about the book 'The Gift of Fear', on here. For anyone that's interested.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2023 16:18:49 GMT -5
The effort is admirable, Lyle's letter to address the ongoing and previously silenced problem is a step in the right direction. Openness instead of secrecy, accountability instead of sweeping it under the rug, alertness and monitoring, listening to complaints and immediately addressing a problem or threat, etc. Awareness alone won't stop the problem, educating Workers with Safe Programs won't either. The whole system is ripe for abuse, temptation in close quarters leaves people susceptible to abuse. I don't know what a bullet proof solution would look like, a church should be a sanctuary from such worldly predators, not a breeding ground.
Anytime you overly suppress people with ridiculous restrictions, it almost seems inevitable that you have recoil. People explode in the opposite direction when a system is too restraining.. It happened to me
Maybe some mobile homes could be set-up in cities where Workers frequently visit, it would give them some freedom, privacy, and some exclusivity or a break from constant intermingling. They never get a break from visiting and everyone needs some along time.
Going a step farther, maybe the friends could pool their money and buy a small house or condo for the workers to stay when they are in their community. That way they always have a place to stay and some privacy? They can stock the place with food if they wanted to do that also.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 18:09:46 GMT -5
Police state comes to mind. I am not so sure on that. If one breaks it down to an employment issue and they have been warned not to access certain sites then they could be fired. That's what happens in real life. Calls for the need for a personnel department.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 18:15:52 GMT -5
The effort is admirable, Lyle's letter to address the ongoing and previously silenced problem is a step in the right direction. Openness instead of secrecy, accountability instead of sweeping it under the rug, alertness and monitoring, listening to complaints and immediately addressing a problem or threat, etc. Awareness alone won't stop the problem, educating Workers with Safe Programs won't either. The whole system is ripe for abuse, temptation in close quarters leaves people susceptible to abuse. I don't know what a bullet proof solution would look like, a church should be a sanctuary from such worldly predators, not a breeding ground.
Anytime you overly suppress people with ridiculous restrictions, it almost seems inevitable that you have recoil. People explode in the opposite direction when a system is too restraining.. It happened to me
Maybe some mobile homes could be set-up in cities where Workers frequently visit, it would give them some freedom, privacy, and some exclusivity or a break from constant intermingling. They never get a break from visiting and everyone needs some along time.
Good plan. Someone non-worker would have to hold the deed to the property. But you'd have to require that two people occupy it at once for it to be 2x2. Two bedrooms might be good.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 18:18:24 GMT -5
Installation of porn blockers on all workers phones and computers. Mobile phones and laptops are far more evil than the TV and radio, as is being more than adequately proved. Forget the porn blockers on workers' phones and laptops. Get rid of the phones and laptops and follow the true example of what workers should carry with them. Any worker who carries a phone or laptop and is anti-TV is nothing more than a hypocrite. That's the great irony of forbidding radio and TV. I recall a worker suggesting one doesn't read the newspaper either.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 27, 2023 18:24:50 GMT -5
Mobile phones and laptops are far more evil than the TV and radio, as is being more than adequately proved. Forget the porn blockers on workers' phones and laptops. Get rid of the phones and laptops and follow the true example of what workers should carry with them. Any worker who carries a phone or laptop and is anti-TV is nothing more than a hypocrite. That's the great irony of forbidding radio and TV. I recall a worker suggesting one doesn't read the newspaper either. I am quite certain that initially this was to keep the people ignorant. Knowledge exposes religion to be a farce.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 18:25:13 GMT -5
Police state comes to mind. They do it on their own will. Just another tool to discourage porn viewing of workers in our children’s bedroom when they stay at our house. It doesn’t solve the problem completely but it limits the temptation threshold. It’s a real actionable thing that they can do in addition to their child abuse training. Right now no one's impressed by what some of them do on their own will. There is a good catch, though. Provide them with a phone at your expense with a contract to have you inspect their phone history at regular intervals. That will keep you on your toes.
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Post by neighbour on Apr 27, 2023 18:31:16 GMT -5
That's the great irony of forbidding radio and TV. I recall a worker suggesting one doesn't read the newspaper either. I am quite certain that initially this was to keep the people ignorant. Knowledge exposes religion to be a farce. Anti-intellectualism was rampant in the truth when boomers were young. University was subversive because young people went there and had their beliefs challenged. The old workers lost that battle too when the boomers sent most of their kids to college.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 18:33:54 GMT -5
That's the great irony of forbidding radio and TV. I recall a worker suggesting one doesn't read the newspaper either. I am quite certain that initially this was to keep the people ignorant. Knowledge exposes religion to be a farce. That, of course, is true. Of course it was promoted as preventing too much worldly influence on the friends, but it didn't really work that well. They should have promoted Amish-style colony living to accomplish that. I learned my first lesson about radio when I was in first grade. There was a radio program for grade schoolers that broadcast once a week for the teachers to tune into. The first day it happened I had a crying fit in the classroom because I wasn't supposed to be listening to the radio. After my teacher consulted with my mother, my mother explained to me that there was nothing wrong with listening to the radio. We just weren't supposed to listen to it in our own homes. I was a smart kid. You can guess what lesson I learned from that.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 18:34:50 GMT -5
I am quite certain that initially this was to keep the people ignorant. Knowledge exposes religion to be a farce. Anti-intellectualism was rampant in the truth when boomers were young. University was subversive because young people went there and had their beliefs challenged. The old workers lost that battle too when the boomers sent most of their kids to college. And then college educated kids went in the work. Remarkable.
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 27, 2023 18:35:23 GMT -5
They do it on their own will. Just another tool to discourage porn viewing of workers in our children’s bedroom when they stay at our house. It doesn’t solve the problem completely but it limits the temptation threshold. It’s a real actionable thing that they can do in addition to their child abuse training. Right now no one's impressed by what some of them do on their own will. There is a good catch, though. Provide them with a phone at your expense with a contract to have you inspect their phone history at regular intervals. That will keep you on your toes. I think you lost track of the conversation or there is a barrier on communication. If the workers can take a class every 2 years on CSA, they can also put they own porn blockers on their phones and laptops, on their own free will.
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Post by neighbour on Apr 27, 2023 18:38:15 GMT -5
I am quite certain that initially this was to keep the people ignorant. Knowledge exposes religion to be a farce. That, of course, is true. Of course it was promoted as preventing too much worldly influence on the friends, but it didn't really work that well. They should have promoted Amish-style colony living to accomplish that. I learned my first lesson about radio when I was in first grade. There was a radio program for grade schoolers that broadcast once a week for the teachers to tune into. The first day it happened I had a crying fit in the classroom because I wasn't supposed to be listening to the radio. After my teacher consulted with my mother, my mother explained to me that there was nothing wrong with listening to the radio. We just weren't supposed to listen to it in our own homes. I was a smart kid. You can guess what lesson I learned from that. I spent nearly every late afternoon of elementary school at my friend's house watching TV shows and movies
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 27, 2023 18:48:15 GMT -5
My question is this. Why are the workers driving this. It is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house. Many of them have shown that they are nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing and yet it is still them calling the shots. Are the friends that lacking in gumption that they let this happen?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 19:06:32 GMT -5
Right now no one's impressed by what some of them do on their own will. There is a good catch, though. Provide them with a phone at your expense with a contract to have you inspect their phone history at regular intervals. That will keep you on your toes. I think you lost track of the conversation or there is a barrier on communication. If the workers can take a class every 2 years on CSA, they can also put they own porn blockers on their phones and laptops, on their own free will. No, I haven't lost track at all. It's doesn't take a class every 2 years to suggest to workers that they can put a blocker on their phone. The class every 2 years is to train workers to live within the law -- period. If you can't stop someone from committing a crime with refresher courses every 2 years, don't be so silly as to expect that "suggesting" using a porn blockers is going to make a difference.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2023 19:09:47 GMT -5
That, of course, is true. Of course it was promoted as preventing too much worldly influence on the friends, but it didn't really work that well. They should have promoted Amish-style colony living to accomplish that. I learned my first lesson about radio when I was in first grade. There was a radio program for grade schoolers that broadcast once a week for the teachers to tune into. The first day it happened I had a crying fit in the classroom because I wasn't supposed to be listening to the radio. After my teacher consulted with my mother, my mother explained to me that there was nothing wrong with listening to the radio. We just weren't supposed to listen to it in our own homes. I was a smart kid. You can guess what lesson I learned from that. I spent nearly every late afternoon of elementary school at my friend's house watching TV shows and movies Sure. I know a man who was raised by a professing mother and a father of some other denomination. He watched TV every day of his life, and at 50 years of age he told me he couldn't think of what damage it might have done to him. But then, he was smart enough to know that most of what's on TV is entertainment anyway.
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Post by neighbour on Apr 27, 2023 20:22:29 GMT -5
My question is this. Why are the workers driving this. It is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house. Many of them have shown that they are nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing and yet it is still them calling the shots. Are the friends that lacking in gumption that they let this happen? The friends have no power unless they all band together and reject authority as a bloc. The older friends in my area are mostly oblivious, and if they do find out most will (a) not believe it and/or (b) be abhorred at the word "sexual" being spoken. So, change from below is difficult.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 27, 2023 20:29:20 GMT -5
My question is this. Why are the workers driving this. It is like putting the fox in charge of the hen house. Many of them have shown that they are nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing and yet it is still them calling the shots. Are the friends that lacking in gumption that they let this happen? The friends have no power unless they all band together and reject authority as a bloc. The older friends in my area are mostly oblivious, and if they do find out most will (a) not believe it and/or (b) be abhorred at the word "sexual" being spoken. So, change from below is difficult. I guess that those that are up to speed on religion and the shenanagins that go on to support it are steadily leaving.
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Post by Dan on Apr 27, 2023 22:28:07 GMT -5
They do it on their own will. Just another tool to discourage porn viewing of workers in our children’s bedroom when they stay at our house. It doesn’t solve the problem completely but it limits the temptation threshold. It’s a real actionable thing that they can do in addition to their child abuse training. Right now no one's impressed by what some of them do on their own will. There is a good catch, though. Provide them with a phone at your expense with a contract to have you inspect their phone history at regular intervals. That will keep you on your toes. Its kind of sad that we're discussing putting porn blockers on Workers phones and monitoring them. I doubt that plan will fly? Trying to protect Workers from temptation seems counterproductive, they are already sheltered to a degree from real world corruption. Treating them like children and checking their phones would be insulting. Besides, aren't they suppose to set the example and resist sin/temptation themselves?
I just think since they are adults, their phones are their business. Would Friends also have the authority to go through their suitcases and search for pornographic material? That's an invasion of privacy and I doubt any of them would agree to such personal searches. What's next, do we inspect their bags of merchandise every time they go to a drug store to make sure there's no condoms or Viagra in them.
I just think that if you need to install a porn blocker on all Workers phones because they are so weak that they can't resist filth or control their lust, then maybe they ought to find another line of work. They can't be searched like prisoners or monitored like babies. Trust is ultimately a necessity, but instituting some commonsense awareness, oversight, and rules need to be implemented.. jmo
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