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Post by uker260702 on Jun 14, 2024 4:02:30 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Jun 14, 2024 14:53:07 GMT -5
What he says indicates that he doesn't believe survivors and any changes to protect the children in the future isn't good because it would 'affect the quality of the ministry'. What quality? He says he hasn't heard of any CSA in his 57 years. I don't believe that but does anyone know of correspondence where it proves he has had proof that there have been allegations against workers and he definitely knew about them?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2024 19:47:58 GMT -5
The leadership might be wise enough to leave him alone - - anyone who is that naive after 5 decades isn't going to rat on anyone.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 14, 2024 20:42:11 GMT -5
The leadership might be wise enough to leave him alone - - anyone who is that naive after 5 decades isn't going to rat on anyone. Or he has been set up to parrot the party line. Repeatedly saying that "I am not aware" would not be an legal excuse if it could be proved that he was in a situation where he was required to be a mandatory reporter.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 14, 2024 20:44:49 GMT -5
Looking at the statistics which show how many perpetrators that have been reported I have been wondering how many of Jesus "seventy" were perverts and even if some of the "twelve" were up to no good.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2024 21:23:36 GMT -5
The leadership might be wise enough to leave him alone - - anyone who is that naive after 5 decades isn't going to rat on anyone. Or he has been set up to parrot the party line. Repeatedly saying that "I am not aware" would not be an legal excuse if it could be proved that he was in a situation where he was required to be a mandatory reporter. Exactly. Ignorance of the law can be the harsher lesson to learn.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 14, 2024 21:28:39 GMT -5
Looking at the statistics which show how many perpetrators that have been reported I have been wondering how many of Jesus "seventy" were perverts and even if some of the "twelve" were up to no good. My fear right now is that some people are expecting to completely eliminate such incidents completely from the fellowship. That will NEVER happen. All we can ever expect to happen is better education on how to deal with it when it does happen. It's called "risk management". Otherwise, the trail of unprocessed criminal abuses will continue to haunt them
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Post by Dan on Jun 14, 2024 22:41:59 GMT -5
The leadership might be wise enough to leave him alone - - anyone who is that naive after 5 decades isn't going to rat on anyone.
I think he did a pretty good interview, kudos for being one of very few to do so.. Of course he towed the company line, at the end saying ' change would not be good'. That's understandable if your convinced your in the only correct Way. The church statement of faith cannot change if its biblically sound. It was hard to fathom that he knew nothing of abuse after 57 years, but I was clueless for over 7 years myself ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .. The 'secret' sect ain't so secret anymore!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 15, 2024 0:44:29 GMT -5
The leadership might be wise enough to leave him alone - - anyone who is that naive after 5 decades isn't going to rat on anyone. I think he did a pretty good interview, kudos for being one of very few to do so.. Of course he towed the company line, at the end saying ' change would not be good'. That's understandable if your convinced your in the only correct Way. The church statement of faith cannot change if its biblically sound. It was hard to fathom that he knew nothing of abuse after 57 years, but I was clueless for over 7 years myself ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .. The 'secret' sect ain't so secret anymore! You know, I actually believe that some of these people have said the same thing for so long that they have convinced themselves that it's not a lie. I've known people who have been looking for such platitude phrases - - They ask, "What should I say if asked about ....." and you know they already know what about the matter. It's a way to standardize public relations messages. Some of it they repeat verbatim -- they'll get upset if you even change a word in the sentence.
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Post by Dan on Jun 15, 2024 16:34:47 GMT -5
I think he did a pretty good interview, kudos for being one of very few to do so.. Of course he towed the company line, at the end saying ' change would not be good'. That's understandable if your convinced your in the only correct Way. The church statement of faith cannot change if its biblically sound. It was hard to fathom that he knew nothing of abuse after 57 years, but I was clueless for over 7 years myself ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .. The 'secret' sect ain't so secret anymore! You know, I actually believe that some of these people have said the same thing for so long that they have convinced themselves that it's not a lie. I've known people who have been looking for such platitude phrases - - They ask, "What should I say if asked about ....." and you know they already know what about the matter. It's a way to standardize public relations messages. Some of it they repeat verbatim -- they'll get upset if you even change a word in the sentence.
Yep, that was my experience.. I asked a couple questions prior to exiting and was essentially stonewalled. Workers who were normally humble became a tad arrogant, even irritated when confronted with unconventional questions that required an answer that was outside of the common spiel. I was told that I lacked faith and they seemed offended, taking my questions as a personal attack or insult.
When you go beyond the common unwritten statement of faith (outlined by the young man below), they really aren't prepared or 'learned' on how to respond. Either that or they just don't want to engage in any sort of argument? They seem limited to conditional thinking and have pat answers to most things, but any questions outside their realm of training was an empty chasm because it required individual thought to answer... Just my experience and opinion... Maybe my disappointment was that the people I looked up to didn't know anymore than I did
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 15, 2024 17:56:02 GMT -5
You know, I actually believe that some of these people have said the same thing for so long that they have convinced themselves that it's not a lie. I've known people who have been looking for such platitude phrases - - They ask, "What should I say if asked about ....." and you know they already know what about the matter. It's a way to standardize public relations messages. Some of it they repeat verbatim -- they'll get upset if you even change a word in the sentence.
Yep, that was my experience.. I asked a couple questions prior to exiting and was essentially stonewalled. Workers who were normally humble became a tad arrogant, even irritated when confronted with unconventional questions that required an answer that was outside of the common spiel. I was told that I lacked faith and they seemed offended, taking my questions as a personal attack or insult.
When you go beyond the common unwritten statement of faith (outlined by the young man below), they really aren't prepared or 'learned' on how to respond. Either that or they just don't want to engage in any sort of argument? They seem limited to conditional thinking and have pat answers to most things, but any questions outside their realm of training was an empty chasm because it required individual thought to answer... Just my experience and opinion... Maybe my disappointment was that the people I looked up to didn't know anymore than I did
Many workers can’t answers questions but some can with good answers! I too asked many questions and some became very rude so, I didn’t ask that worker any more questions after that. Many of my companions were good teachers and they didn’t mind me asking them Bible questions. I had heard a little about William Irvine when I was in the work, he had a charismatic personality, a womanizer and he went off the tracks with his new Omega revelation he was one of the two witnesses in Rev. chapter 11. and he predicted the 2nd coming of Christ in 1917 and created chaos among the friends. After I left the work in 1993 I began to study about the Vaudois Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic ministry, their history, belief for 1800 years. In 1990 My companion and I had heard a lecture from a church historian professor at the University on Peter Waldo a 2x2 preacher from France in 1170. The 2x2s early days workers teachings, 2x2 ministry and Sunday morning worship very much similar to them so uncanny. This is truly a miracle! I have it written it down and people can read it for themselves on line I meant the Vaudois church history from 68-1800. I enjoy this man Video with many good information about the 2x2s👏👍
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Post by Dan on Jun 16, 2024 22:37:59 GMT -5
Many workers can’t answers questions but some can with good answers! I too asked many questions and some became very rude so, I didn’t ask that worker any more questions after that. Many of my companions were good teachers and they didn’t mind me asking them Bible questions. I had heard a little about William Irvine when I was in the work, he had a charismatic personality, a womanizer and he went off the tracks with his new Omega revelation he was one of the two witnesses in Rev. chapter 11. and he predicted the 2nd coming of Christ in 1917 and created chaos among the friends. After I left the work in 1993 I began to study about the Vaudois Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic ministry, their history, belief for 1800 years. In 1990 My companion and I had heard a lecture from a church historian professor at the University on Peter Waldo a 2x2 preacher from France in 1170. The 2x2s early days workers teachings, 2x2 ministry and Sunday morning worship very much similar to them so uncanny. This is truly a miracle! I have it written it down and people can read it for themselves on line I meant the Vaudois church history from 68-1800. I enjoy this man Video with many good information about the 2x2s👏👍
Finally heard an ex-Worker say that Jesus was divine/part of the Godhead, and not just a man. That's a step in the right direction, and I hope more members get that same revelation.
She says it at about the 53:30 minute mark of this video interview (John & Zandi Smart)
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 17, 2024 0:34:16 GMT -5
Many workers can’t answers questions but some can with good answers! I too asked many questions and some became very rude so, I didn’t ask that worker any more questions after that. Many of my companions were good teachers and they didn’t mind me asking them Bible questions. I had heard a little about William Irvine when I was in the work, he had a charismatic personality, a womanizer and he went off the tracks with his new Omega revelation he was one of the two witnesses in Rev. chapter 11. and he predicted the 2nd coming of Christ in 1917 and created chaos among the friends. After I left the work in 1993 I began to study about the Vaudois Jesus Christ 2x2 apostolic ministry, their history, belief for 1800 years. In 1990 My companion and I had heard a lecture from a church historian professor at the University on Peter Waldo a 2x2 preacher from France in 1170. The 2x2s early days workers teachings, 2x2 ministry and Sunday morning worship very much similar to them so uncanny. This is truly a miracle! I have it written it down and people can read it for themselves on line I meant the Vaudois church history from 68-1800. I enjoy this man Video with many good information about the 2x2s👏👍
Finally heard an ex-Worker say that Jesus was divine/part of the Godhead, and not just a man. That's a step in the right direction, and I hope more members get that same revelation.
She says it at about the 53:30 minute mark of this video interview (John & Zandi Smart)
Amen to that! His wife got the revelation of Jesus the Christ the I AM God “ Before Abraham was born, I AM Jesus is the I AM God of the Old and New Test… I AM the bread of life, I AM the life and the Truth, I AM the True shepherd…. Divine/Deity Godhead with God the Father right on the money! If Jesus wasn’t Divine/God the Christ or Son then he couldn’t calm the strong wind, the high waves in the middle of the storm. Jesus forgives people sins only God can forgive our sins. Jesus/God healed the blinds, the deaf and made the mute spoke, he raised the dead back to life and so on…..👏🙌👍 In our Sunday morning meetings many of the friends begin to see and understand Jesus is our older brother and God the Christ Co-Creator of the Universe with God the Father. Read John 1:1-14. God the Father called the Son/Christ “the Lord and God” in Hebrews 1:8-12.. God the Father called the Son “Lord and God” therefore, we must believe in His words. 2000 years ago, Jesus was begotten by God the Father, the Holy Spirit and Mary to be the Savior and Redeemer of sinful humanity. The spirit/Soul of Christ in Jesus is the Eternal God, his name is Immanuel= God is with us, therefore Jesus is God and Man being/Entity.
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Post by mrdobalina on Jun 17, 2024 1:15:44 GMT -5
I watched it to the end, and my biggest surprise was that his pants didn't catch fire.
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Post by bendle on Jun 18, 2024 7:32:03 GMT -5
What he says indicates that he doesn't believe survivors and any changes to protect the children in the future isn't good because it would 'affect the quality of the ministry'. What quality? He says he hasn't heard of any CSA in his 57 years. I don't believe that but does anyone know of correspondence where it proves he has had proof that there have been allegations against workers and he definitely knew about them? On one of the facebook groups a couple of people have commented. 1- There is zero chance that he nothing of the Reuben Mata situation. 2- He is referenced on Expressions site in respect to having been written to about abuse. 3- An ex worker who was a companion of his has said that they most definitely were aware of abuse during their time together. He seems to have a rather selective memory.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 18, 2024 15:01:56 GMT -5
What he says indicates that he doesn't believe survivors and any changes to protect the children in the future isn't good because it would 'affect the quality of the ministry'. What quality? He says he hasn't heard of any CSA in his 57 years. I don't believe that but does anyone know of correspondence where it proves he has had proof that there have been allegations against workers and he definitely knew about them? On one of the facebook groups a couple of people have commented. 1- There is zero chance that he nothing of the Reuben Mata situation. 2- He is referenced on Expressions site in respect to having been written to about abuse. 3- An ex worker who was a companion of his has said that they most definitely were aware of abuse during their time together. He seems to have a rather selective memory. Someone here met him in 1997 and said he was disliked by many people, including ex-companion workers.
He typifies what is wrong in the church. The only upside is that he doesn't appear to be long for this life!
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 18, 2024 17:42:56 GMT -5
On one of the facebook groups a couple of people have commented. 1- There is zero chance that he nothing of the Reuben Mata situation. 2- He is referenced on Expressions site in respect to having been written to about abuse. 3- An ex worker who was a companion of his has said that they most definitely were aware of abuse during their time together. He seems to have a rather selective memory. Someone here met him in 1997 and said he was disliked by many people, including ex-companion workers.
He typifies what is wrong in the church. The only upside is that he doesn't appear to be long for this life!
Ruben Mata passed away in prison.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 18, 2024 21:27:42 GMT -5
On one of the facebook groups a couple of people have commented. 1- There is zero chance that he nothing of the Reuben Mata situation. 2- He is referenced on Expressions site in respect to having been written to about abuse. 3- An ex worker who was a companion of his has said that they most definitely were aware of abuse during their time together. He seems to have a rather selective memory. Someone here met him in 1997 and said he was disliked by many people, including ex-companion workers.
He typifies what is wrong in the church. The only upside is that he doesn't appear to be long for this life!
I was one of Gary Paul’s companions and he was the easiest, likable, and nice person to be around, he had a dry sense of humor. I was with him twice in Montana in 1990-91. We had one of the most challenging year in the field in my 8 years in the work and we made it through. He is one of the nice and good worker in my book. Gary knows about CSA among the friends when I was with him, but we hardly hear or knew about CSA among the workers back then like we know now. It was hidden from us like Eldon T., Willis P., Dan H…..
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 18, 2024 22:30:48 GMT -5
How he was then to you and others could be different to how he is now to others
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 18, 2024 22:38:57 GMT -5
How he was then to you and others could be different to how he is now to others Hey, I just tell the readers my time and experiences with him during those two years. I saw Gary a few times after I left the work.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 18, 2024 22:52:48 GMT -5
How he was then to you and others could be different to how he is now to others Hey, I just tell the readers my time and experiences with him during those two years. I saw Gary a few times after I left the work. He certainly had a trainwreck of an interview. However, I always take the approach that no matter how much a plonker someone is, it's never 100%. There usually some good still present.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 19, 2024 0:19:51 GMT -5
Hey, I just tell the readers my time and experiences with him during those two years. I saw Gary a few times after I left the work. He certainly had a trainwreck of an interview. However, I always take the approach that no matter how much a plonker someone is, it's never 100%. They’re usually some good still present. Gary is not a smooth talker, he has a hard time expressing and answering questions sometimes. However, he has a good heart, a caring person and is trying to do his best for people.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 19, 2024 3:05:21 GMT -5
He certainly had a trainwreck of an interview. However, I always take the approach that no matter how much a plonker someone is, it's never 100%. They’re usually some good still present. Gary is not a smooth talker, he has a hard time expressing and answering questions sometimes. However, he has a good heart, a caring person and is trying to do his best for people. But that's what he does for a living! Saying women shouldn't wear pants...pfffft!
Seriously, I sympathise to an extent if he isn't quick on his feet with words. But he should know that and not consented to an interview, but instead given a written statement. These guys claim to have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit's guidance, but can hardy string sentences together outside of the 2X2 vernacular.
My wife tells me that on other sites people are posting up copies of correspondence to him from 2005 onwards about CSA, personally handing it to them, and now he denies ever meeting them.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 19, 2024 8:20:27 GMT -5
Gary is not a smooth talker, he has a hard time expressing and answering questions sometimes. However, he has a good heart, a caring person and is trying to do his best for people. But that's what he does for a living! Saying women shouldn't wear pants...pfffft!
Seriously, I sympathise to an extent if he isn't quick on his feet with words. But he should know that and not consented to an interview, but instead given a written statement. These guys claim to have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit's guidance, but can hardy string sentences together outside of the 2X2 vernacular.
My wife tells me that on other sites people are posting up copies of correspondence to him from 2005 onwards about CSA, personally handing it to them, and now he denies ever meeting them.
CSA is a tough situation to deal it, the overseers are trying their best on how to handle to make everyone satisfy and happy. The overseers must come together around the world and get CSA situation in the correct manners ASAP, it’s about time.
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Post by Dan on Jun 19, 2024 12:09:35 GMT -5
But that's what he does for a living! Saying women shouldn't wear pants...pfffft!
Seriously, I sympathise to an extent if he isn't quick on his feet with words. But he should know that and not consented to an interview, but instead given a written statement. These guys claim to have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit's guidance, but can hardy string sentences together outside of the 2X2 vernacular.
My wife tells me that on other sites people are posting up copies of correspondence to him from 2005 onwards about CSA, personally handing it to them, and now he denies ever meeting them.
CSA is a tough situation to deal it, the overseers are trying their best on how to handle to make everyone satisfy and happy. The overseers must come together around the world and get CSA situation in the correct manners ASAP, it’s about time.
CSA is actually a very easy thing to deal with, you simply throw anyone out of the church who does it and simultaneously call the police to report the crime.
Overseer's might be coming to that solution now, but they sure resisted acknowledging or doing anything about it in the past. Some are still treating it as a minor setback!
Your correct, its about time they put their foot down and relay zero tolerance for perverts in the church.. Hope its not too late.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 19, 2024 12:41:02 GMT -5
CSA is a tough situation to deal it, the overseers are trying their best on how to handle to make everyone satisfy and happy. The overseers must come together around the world and get CSA situation in the correct manners ASAP, it’s about time.
CSA is actually a very easy thing to deal with, you simply throw anyone out of the church who does it and simultaneously call the police to report the crime.
Overseer's might be coming to that solution now, but they sure resisted acknowledging or doing anything about it in the past. Some are still treating it as a minor setback!
Your correct, its about time they put their foot down and relay zero tolerance for perverts in the church.. Hope its not too late.
Yes, most of us know what is the right thing to do about CSA for quite awhile now, but majority of the organized churches such as the RCC, Protestant denominations, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses and and 2x2 leaderships have failed in this department very badly. I believe majority of 2x2 overseers are no longer take CSA lightly like two years ago. We have warned and tried to educate them back in the year 2000 on TMB, but they didn’t think it was no big deal. I wish the 2x2 leadership had taken the warnings seriously and had Zero tolerance policy on CSA back then, many lives would have been spared from the traumatic experiences in their lives. Amen, about zero tolerance on CSA/SA in our fellowship and in the world.👍
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2024 14:40:19 GMT -5
What he says indicates that he doesn't believe survivors and any changes to protect the children in the future isn't good because it would 'affect the quality of the ministry'. What quality? He says he hasn't heard of any CSA in his 57 years. I don't believe that but does anyone know of correspondence where it proves he has had proof that there have been allegations against workers and he definitely knew about them? On one of the facebook groups a couple of people have commented. 1- There is zero chance that he nothing of the Reuben Mata situation. 2- He is referenced on Expressions site in respect to having been written to about abuse. 3- An ex worker who was a companion of his has said that they most definitely were aware of abuse during their time together. He seems to have a rather selective memory. Yes apparently there have been numerous times he's been made aware. But of course the party line is deny deny deny because if he says he knew then the next question would have to be 'so what did you do about it, if anything'. He would have to say nothing and that's not a good look. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png)
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Post by snow on Jun 19, 2024 14:44:04 GMT -5
He certainly had a trainwreck of an interview. However, I always take the approach that no matter how much a plonker someone is, it's never 100%. They’re usually some good still present. Gary is not a smooth talker, he has a hard time expressing and answering questions sometimes. However, he has a good heart, a caring person and is trying to do his best for people. There is tons of evidence that he did know about it. So him saying that he didn't never heard of it or saw it and then backing that up with saying he doesn't believe it happened, is not the definition of a caring person that is trying to do his best for people. He says the quality of the ministry comes first before the protection of children. That is insane!
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