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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 22, 2024 19:14:33 GMT -5
Let me clarify what I wrote so, you don’t get all twisted up in your own crazy mind. When I was in the work from 1986-93 we had a few CSA cases among the friends and, where the authority were involved. I didn’t know about CSA committed by the workers during those years in the work, it happened but I didn’t know or hear about it, until I read it on TMB about Ira H. CSA case 10 years ago. 15 years ago, An ex-worker posted on TMB what he heard of certain worker committed CSA and was asked to leave the work. The overseers should have asked all of CSA workers to leave the work! Immediatedly. In the year 2000 some of the friends in Oregon and another state, my older companion and myself had posted articles with helpful information of CSA were taken places within the 2x2 fellowship, where to get help on CSA on my website and on TMB. On my website I posted how terrible the RCC leadership moved CSA priests to different parishes to committed more crimes against the children. I was hoping our overseers wouldn’t follow their bad and evil examples but they did exactly what the RCC had done by moving CSA workers to different fields or countries. Hoping, they would repent and change their horrible behaviors against the children. They were wrong because they didn’t understand it was almost impossible to change that kind of evil behaviors without professional help. Well, they learn that now, which is a little too late, the damage already done. The overseers, the friends need to help the victims to get help from professional with many therapies and healing for themselves and have zero tolerance CSA/SA within the ministry and fellowship. The friends who left their wills to the ministry, should mention 10% of the money goes to CSA victims therapy, and help for their needs. The 10% idea isn't a bad one, but there is no way it could be enforced. But yes in principle, as it looks like there would be no other way for victims to get help from the church. Even workers who leave, leave with nothing.
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Post by help on Jun 22, 2024 19:28:46 GMT -5
The 2x2's have never kept financial records, or managed funds in the proper way that a Church should. So how could the 10% levy be applied?. Financial affairs have always been made top secret by Overseers, that attitude would have to change big time.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 22, 2024 19:39:59 GMT -5
Ah, so it was happening in the Worker's club, but not talked about. But Workers shared information about laity. That sounds about right,they shared the contents of their little black note books, but no notes in them about Workers. Benefit of Workers being sacrosanct. Yes, workers are NOT perfect like Jesus/God. Peter asked Jesus how many times should I forgive my brother, 7 times a day? Jesus replied “ No, 70x7 = 490.” Workers are humans, they have human’s weaknesses, frailty, make mistakes just like their followers. Them and us are in the same boat as sinners.
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Post by help on Jun 22, 2024 20:28:26 GMT -5
You cannot justify a crime as being just due to Human weakness. A crime and a sin are entirely different. The religious affirmation that something is a sin should be guided by a judgment of conscience about right and wrong. It is a moral decision.
The law of the land is made by the Government and are the laws in force within a country or region, including statute law and case-made law.
If you sin the Church will get you off the hook, they have built a business on it. If you break the law it is a Police matter, the Church cannot help you. The only way you will get off the hook is if you have lots of money and use the services of a Barrister.
So if you sin go to Church, if you break the law get a Barrister.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 22, 2024 21:08:03 GMT -5
The church seems to have forgotten "Render unto Caesar etc" but quite happy to preach it. The minimise the crimes committed by their own, but maximise the laity's misdemeanours with respect to the church's rules.
Help, you are 100% correct.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jun 22, 2024 21:54:48 GMT -5
Ah, so it was happening in the Worker's club, but not talked about. But Workers shared information about laity. That sounds about right,they shared the contents of their little black note books, but no notes in them about Workers. Benefit of Workers being sacrosanct. Exactly.
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nathan2
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 22, 2024 22:22:50 GMT -5
Let me clarify what I wrote so, you don’t get all twisted up in your own crazy mind. When I was in the work from 1986-93 we had a few CSA cases among the friends and, where the authority were involved. I didn’t know about CSA committed by the workers during those years in the work, it happened but I didn’t know or hear about it, until I read it on TMB about Ira H. CSA case 10 years ago. 15 years ago, An ex-worker posted on TMB what he heard of certain worker committed CSA and was asked to leave the work. The overseers should have asked all of CSA workers to leave the work! Immediatedly. In the year 2000 some of the friends in Oregon and another state, my older companion and myself had posted articles with helpful information of CSA were taken places within the 2x2 fellowship, where to get help on CSA on my website and on TMB. On my website I posted how terrible the RCC leadership moved CSA priests to different parishes to committed more crimes against the children. I was hoping our overseers wouldn’t follow their bad and evil examples but they did exactly what the RCC had done by moving CSA workers to different fields or countries. Hoping, they would repent and change their horrible behaviors against the children. They were wrong because they didn’t understand it was almost impossible to change that kind of evil behaviors without professional help. Well, they learn that now, which is a little too late, the damage already done. The overseers, the friends need to help the victims to get help from professional with many therapies and healing for themselves and have zero tolerance CSA/SA within the ministry and fellowship. The friends who left their wills to the ministry, should mention 10% of the money goes to CSA victims therapy, and help for their needs. The 10% idea isn't a bad one, but there is no way it could be enforced. But yes in principle, as it looks like there would be no other way for victims to get help from the church. Even workers who leave, leave with nothing. The friends must get the attorney involved and make sure the workers to donate 10-20% of their will to CSA victims, therapy and any assistance they need. If the overseers don’t adhere to it then ALL of the money go to the victims trust funds.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 22, 2024 22:30:55 GMT -5
You cannot justify a crime as being just due to Human weakness. A crime and a sin are entirely different. The religious affirmation that something is a sin should be guided by a judgment of conscience about right and wrong. It is a moral decision. The law of the land is made by the Government and are the laws in force within a country or region, including statute law and case-made law. If you sin the Church will get you off the hook, they have built a business on it. If you break the law it is a Police matter, the Church cannot help you. The only way you will get off the hook is if you have lots of money and use the services of a Barrister. So if you sin go to Church, if you break the law get a Barrister. King David committed adultery and murder and God forgave him. Paul the apostle murdered Stephen in Acts 8. and God forgave him and appointed him as his apostle to the Gentiles. The workers and the friends who broke the CSA laws they must pay the time! in prison But if they had repented of their sins then God will forgive them and He will welcome them into His kingdom with open arms.
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Post by help on Jun 22, 2024 22:41:00 GMT -5
"The workers and the friends who broke the CSA laws they must pay the time! in prison But if they had repented of their sins then God will forgive them and He will welcome them into His kingdom with open arms".
That statement just does not make sense, put the offender in the situation so as they can commit the crime again. Unreal. But then again many beliefs in religion defy common sense. That is why the majority of people are finding a better way to live. Wait for it we will now hear about the narrow way, being the right way.
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Post by Dan on Jun 23, 2024 0:00:08 GMT -5
"The workers and the friends who broke the CSA laws they must pay the time! in prison But if they had repented of their sins then God will forgive them and He will welcome them into His kingdom with open arms". That statement just does not make sense, put the offender in the situation so as they can commit the crime again. Unreal. But then again many beliefs in religion defy common sense. That is why the majority of people are finding a better way to live. Wait for it we will now hear about the narrow way, being the right way.
Its a biblical absolute, any sin that a person turns from is forgivable, with the exception of blasphemy. Everyone is redeemable, that's what gives us hope.
That of course does not absolve or excuse a person from the repercussions and consequences of committing a crime, but no offense is a spiritual death sentence. Repeating an offense over and over is not true repentance either, God will ultimately judge the truly remorseful from the unrepentant hypocrite.
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Post by Dan on Jun 23, 2024 0:20:54 GMT -5
The 10% idea isn't a bad one, but there is no way it could be enforced. But yes in principle, as it looks like there would be no other way for victims to get help from the church. Even workers who leave, leave with nothing. The friends must get the attorney involved and make sure the workers to donate 10-20% of their will to CSA victims, therapy and any assistance they need. If the overseers don’t adhere to it then ALL of the money go to the victims trust funds.
I personally wouldn't want to donate to a church where its a necessity to allocate 10-20% of my money for the children they're molesting ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) . That contingency would make me uncomfortable about any organization, so not a dime until the problem is completely eliminated. And of course, it requires trusting people (Overseers) who disclose no financial records. Zero tolerance isn't good enough, zero cases of sexual misconduct and covering up CSA must become an absolute reality. I'll likely need to re-write my Will, I need to revise it to include a few contingencies of my own now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 23, 2024 1:34:28 GMT -5
The friends must get the attorney involved and make sure the workers to donate 10-20% of their will to CSA victims, therapy and any assistance they need. If the overseers don’t adhere to it then ALL of the money go to the victims trust funds.
I personally wouldn't want to donate to a church where its a necessity to allocate 10-20% of my money for the children they're molesting ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) . That contingency would make me uncomfortable about any organization, so not a dime until the problem is completely eliminated. And of course, it requires trusting people (Overseers) who disclose no financial records. Zero tolerance isn't good enough, zero cases of sexual misconduct and covering up CSA must become an absolute reality. I'll likely need to re-write my Will, I need to revise it to include a few contingencies of my own now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .
I know what you are saying…. I wish this CSA didn’t happen but the cat is out of the bag now! The overseers and the friends must try to help and do what they can to amend the horrific crimes against the children of the friends while they can now! The overseers have the friends trust funds, they can use 20% of that money for the victims also while they must implement the zero tolerance CSA policy ASAP! Eventually this victims trust funds will no longer needed just for now. There must be some trusted worthy 2x2 elders or the friends up for the task! I know the ex-2x2 have a trust fund for the CSA victims already in place. The 2x2s can send the money to them!
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Post by help on Jun 23, 2024 3:50:18 GMT -5
Never should funds be controlled by Clergy. That task belongs to the congregation, via a chosen committee. The congregation should always have a say in how funds are spent. Being a Minister is an occupation and should be paid a stipend, a fixed sum of money paid periodically for services or to defray expenses. Tax is taken out in compliance with the law.
Evan Jones, who was an Overseer in Victoria, revealed in a statement to Victoria Police how 2x2 finances were organised. "Our organisation is financially well off. The funds are controlled by a Trust Fund with the Trustees, who are elders of the Church. I am in charge of the Trustees and have the final say as to where the funds will be sent or spent. Once I make that decision, the Trustees withdraw the funds and give me a bank draft for the amount required in various areas as requested by me".
Wrong way for finances to be handled. Good recipe for a repeat of what Dean Bruer and Willis Propp were able to do. I am quite sure many other such wrong doings have happened, without detection. Accurate records of all spending must be kept and made known to the congregation, who provide the funds.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 23, 2024 4:05:30 GMT -5
Someone did a calculation based on an average annual donation per family in first world countries, less expenses over the last 30 years, plus some estate inheritances and worked out that the penniless church would sitting on about $1.3billion US, albeit scattered across many trust funds held in other people's names. I heard of one worker who inherited $37,000US and he pocketed it. Willis Propp by all accounts was a wealthy man with Mining or Oil and Gas Shares.
The existing structure of the church, where financial accountability and transparency is eschewed, would not support any mechanism whereby compensation to victims could be mandated. Big changes would be needed first.
Of course, if it was mandatory, It would be like a CSA tax on all members, and thereby giving a tacit nod to it.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 23, 2024 10:31:36 GMT -5
"The workers and the friends who broke the CSA laws they must pay the time! in prison But if they had repented of their sins then God will forgive them and He will welcome them into His kingdom with open arms". That statement just does not make sense, put the offender in the situation so as they can commit the crime again. Unreal. But then again many beliefs in religion defy common sense. That is why the majority of people are finding a better way to live. Wait for it we will now hear about the narrow way, being the right way.
Its a biblical absolute, any sin that a person turns from is forgivable, with the exception of blasphemy. Everyone is redeemable, that's what gives us hope.
That of course does not absolve or excuse a person from the repercussions and consequences of committing a crime, but no offense is a spiritual death sentence. Repeating an offense over and over is not true repentance either, God will ultimately judge the truly remorseful from the unrepentant hypocrite.
Amen, bro…. That is my understanding according to the scriptures also. God is Love and He will forgive and forget the truly repented sinner NOT the hypocrite ones. There is one sin God can’t forgive or unpardonable is blasphemy against the the Holy Spirit Matthew 12:31-32; IJohn 5:16.
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Post by Dan on Jun 23, 2024 11:19:52 GMT -5
Someone did a calculation based on an average annual donation per family in first world countries, less expenses over the last 30 years, plus some estate inheritances and worked out that the penniless church would sitting on about $1.3billion US, albeit scattered across many trust funds held in other people's names. I heard of one worker who inherited $37,000US and he pocketed it. Willis Propp by all accounts was a wealthy man with Mining or Oil and Gas Shares. The existing structure of the church, where financial accountability and transparency is eschewed, would not support any mechanism whereby compensation to victims could be mandated. Big changes would be needed first. Of course, if it was mandatory, It would be like a CSA tax on all members, and thereby giving a tacit nod to it.
Didn't know all that... There's a definite need to change the church financial management, no transparency leaves questionable expenditures hidden. I have no problem with Workers delegating where the money goes, but its clear that some Overseers can't be trusted. The Friends as a whole don't need to know the details, but no one person should approve all expenses with no oversight. Otherwise 30 pieces of silver could be misappropriated with dire consequences.
I wouldn't support compensating victims, enriching them is different than providing psychological therapy where necessary. The person that victimized others ought to be sued to help pay for counseling, but of course that opens up an entire mess of litigating hundreds of claims, and many of the assailants aren't around anymore.
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Post by snow on Jun 23, 2024 12:44:07 GMT -5
The perception of self-centredness may be a result of the abuse. Let's face it, so much was robbed from victims and they had no control over the situation, so it makes sense to take care of themselves going forward. Who can they trust to take care of them? It's extremely hard for a victim to go right back to the helpless child and relive the abuse. It takes an enormous toll, especially if they are dragged through a lengthy investigation and court procedures which can take a couple of years. Then the perp gets free counselling and a vastly reduced sentence and releaced from prison while the victim is still trying to get themselves back on an even keel. And I agree. I know someone who was married and was raped. She refused to tell her husband as she was afraid he would look at her liked soiled goods. Victims are often shamed. I know of a lady whose father sexually molested her. People called her "daddy's little girl". I was never a victim of CSA, but I know if it had happened to me with the workers that my parents would have found a way to blame me. That's how it was with the workers. Someone else here said the same thing. There are reasons victim keeps quiet. As someone that is a survivor of SA I absolutely know how hard it is to admit that you were raped. Your first thought is 'what did I do to make him do this to me'. You blame yourself and instantly think it's because there is something wrong with you or you're a terrible person. I remember saying this to a friend of mine hours after I got away and home and they were shocked that I thought I thought it was because something was wrong with me. I'll never forget what he said. He helped to set me on the road to healing and realizing that it wasn't something I did wrong. So shame, blame, fear and guilt are very real for someone that was 17. So how much more would it be for a child that has really no understanding of what happened other than it didn't feel good and the abuser often threatens you or your family if you ever tell your parents or go to the police. Mine was violent, beat up and a gun was involved, so when he threatened me that he would kill me if I told it was a very real threat in my mind. I never reported him because of fear and I regret that. But I sure understand why survivors don't come forward.
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Post by snow on Jun 23, 2024 12:52:26 GMT -5
The friends must get the attorney involved and make sure the workers to donate 10-20% of their will to CSA victims, therapy and any assistance they need. If the overseers don’t adhere to it then ALL of the money go to the victims trust funds. I personally wouldn't want to donate to a church where its a necessity to allocate 10-20% of my money for the children they're molesting ![:-/](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/undecided.png) . That contingency would make me uncomfortable about any organization, so not a dime until the problem is completely eliminated. And of course, it requires trusting people (Overseers) who disclose no financial records. Zero tolerance isn't good enough, zero cases of sexual misconduct and covering up CSA must become an absolute reality. I'll likely need to re-write my Will, I need to revise it to include a few contingencies of my own now ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) .
If I remember correctly the workers back in 2023 when this first broke were asking the friends for donations so they could give money to the survivors. I thought then there was no way I would trust my money going to them and believing it would ever be given to survivors for counselling. Knowing that there is a lot of money already in their coffers, maybe they could start by separating themselves from some of that first before asking the friends to give them more.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 23, 2024 15:11:54 GMT -5
Someone did a calculation based on an average annual donation per family in first world countries, less expenses over the last 30 years, plus some estate inheritances and worked out that the penniless church would sitting on about $1.3billion US, albeit scattered across many trust funds held in other people's names. I heard of one worker who inherited $37,000US and he pocketed it. Willis Propp by all accounts was a wealthy man with Mining or Oil and Gas Shares. The existing structure of the church, where financial accountability and transparency is eschewed, would not support any mechanism whereby compensation to victims could be mandated. Big changes would be needed first. Of course, if it was mandatory, It would be like a CSA tax on all members, and thereby giving a tacit nod to it.
Didn't know all that... There's a definite need to change the church financial management, no transparency leaves questionable expenditures hidden. I have no problem with Workers delegating where the money goes, but its clear that some Overseers can't be trusted. The Friends as a whole don't need to know the details, but no one person should approve all expenses with no oversight. Otherwise 30 pieces of silver could be misappropriated with dire consequences.
I wouldn't support compensating victims, enriching them is different than providing psychological therapy where necessary. The person that victimized others ought to be sued to help pay for counseling, but of course that opens up an entire mess of litigating hundreds of claims, and many of the assailants aren't around anymore.
Dan, that is some one’s guessing about 1.3 Billion dollars, which is over the top. Some of the ex-workers and myself received less than 1000 dollars a year and we had to turn in all that money by the end of convention and get 300 dollars to start a new year! We couldn’t keep any of that money for the next year! Couldn’t save any of that money for the rainy day. I believe many of the overseers don’t abused the trust fund, it’s NOT their money for them to waste and misuse it and they know it. When I left the work I had only 300 dollars in my wallet to start my life with that amount. I stayed in the elders home for 6 months and he found a job working for his nephew making doors business. The ministry didn’t offer any help, a few of the friends and workers sent me some money, which I really appreciated. Yes, I have read and heard some overseers used the trust fund for their own personal gain during and after they left the ministry, I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes in the judgment day for sure. I had learned a lot about CSA victims lives information on TMB the last 20 years. CSA can cause brain damage, and hard for them to have or hold regular jobs, they can’t function to pay their bills. A certain kinds of smell it brings back the graphic experiences of the traumatic situation. Sometimes they just want to kill themselves and ended once and for all. They can’t be around men, even a touch can trigger the experience of the past. If they overseers had known and understand these things that the victims must endure for years to come so, they can forget over night. They need professional help, therapy badly. Some can overcome by themselves but many can’t.
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Post by Pragmatic on Jun 23, 2024 16:33:38 GMT -5
The person that did the calculation once worked at a large trust fund management company where some of the church's money was invested. If you look at the hierarchical structure as being like a pyramid with the triumvirate overseers at the top, state and other country overseers in the next tier, senior workers next, workers and sister workers next, junior workers in the next, then elders, and finally friends at the bottom, then it is at the two top layers where most of the financial management is done. In some places, funds that are donated to the workers get passed up the chain, with just a percentage taken out for expenses.
This is why Larry Taylor, Dean Bruer and others have such huge international travel histories, often in business class.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 23, 2024 16:42:57 GMT -5
The person that did the calculation once worked at a large trust fund management company where some of the church's money was invested. If you look at the hierarchical structure as being like a pyramid with the triumvirate overseers at the top, state and other country overseers in the next tier, senior workers next, workers and sister workers next, junior workers in the next, then elders, and finally friends at the bottom, then it is at the two top layers where most of the financial management is done. In some places, funds that are donated to the workers get passed up the chain, with just a percentage taken out for expenses. This is why Larry Taylor, Dean Bruer and others have such huge international travel histories, often in business class. It's the AMWAY model.
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Post by help on Jun 23, 2024 17:51:20 GMT -5
A pyramid scheme is an illegal financial scam masquerading as a legitimate business.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Jun 23, 2024 18:00:15 GMT -5
A pyramid scheme is an illegal financial scam masquerading as a legitimate business. Or masquerading as a religion.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 23, 2024 18:59:11 GMT -5
The person that did the calculation once worked at a large trust fund management company where some of the church's money was invested. If you look at the hierarchical structure as being like a pyramid with the triumvirate overseers at the top, state and other country overseers in the next tier, senior workers next, workers and sister workers next, junior workers in the next, then elders, and finally friends at the bottom, then it is at the two top layers where most of the financial management is done. In some places, funds that are donated to the workers get passed up the chain, with just a percentage taken out for expenses. This is why Larry Taylor, Dean Bruer and others have such huge international travel histories, often in business class. That is how God the Father, Christ the Lord and the Holy have the New Testament set it up! Matthew 10; Luke 10; Acts 10 and Romans 10; Rev. 11 and 12. God the Father is the Most High, then Christ the Lord God our Savior at His right hand and the Holy Spirit. Then the apostles/workers: the senior apostles Peter, John, James, Barnabas etc then junior apostles such as Timothy, Silas, Luke, Mark, Sosthenes, Titus, etc They have regional senior overseers; Peter/12 and 70 apostles were to be in charge the gospel to the Jews; Paul, Barnabas Timothy, Silas, Mark, Luke, Titus and so on to look after the gospel work among the Gentiles Read Gal. 1:6-9 In Acts the apostles appointed the church elders from among the followers to be of their own homes churches/meetings. Paul wrote two callings in Romans 1:1;7 Apostles and Saints. We read in the gospel of Acts Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Luke, Silas traveled to many countries such as Turkey and to Rome preaching and visiting their convert. Jesus didn’t work and the 12 apostles, Paul, Barnabas, Timothy, Silas, Luke, Titus didn’t have a regular jobs so the money/support money, lodging for all of their long missions journeys had to come from their own followers. What is so against the scriptures about the workers are doing these things like Jesus and the apostles had done in the 1st century? The New Testament system has worked when Jesus and the apostles, the Vaudois Christians followed the same pattern for 1800 years, the Faith Mission tried it for awhile and is still working today with the 2x2 workers. It looks like a Pyramid to me God at the top and God’s people at the bottom, we do all the work, eh 😱😁 Well, In Matthew 19 God and Christ have promised the 12 shall gain 100 folds in this life 100 families, brothers and sisters and sitting on the 12 thrones and much more to enjoy after this life is over. This is true so far in this life about 100 gains.
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Post by help on Jun 24, 2024 19:42:23 GMT -5
"You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time," is a remark by Abraham Lincoln.
Many were fooled by the 2x2 line, "From the shores of Galilee", including our Parents. But of course untruths will always come back and bite you on the bum.
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 24, 2024 23:19:40 GMT -5
"You can fool all the people some of the time and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all of the time," is a remark by Abraham Lincoln. Many were fooled by the 2x2 line, "From the shores of Galilee", including our Parents. But of course untruths will always come back and bite you on the bum. It’s a historical documents fact Jesus 2x2 New Testament apostolic/workers Itinerant ministry and fellowship has ALWAYS been on the earth. Jesus has foretold about God the Father 2x2 apostolic/workers will always be on the earth and to the time of His returns. Mathew 16: 18-19; Matthew 24:14; 29-31: Matthew 28: 16-20 Acts 1:6-11; Rev. chapters 11-12; Rev. 1:7-8; Jude 14-15. God and Christ do NOT lie or go back to their words of truth.
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Post by help on Jun 25, 2024 0:00:39 GMT -5
It's a historical fact that the Roman Catholic Church started the job almost 2000 Years before the 2x2's were invented. They are still growing, 2x2ism is in decline.
The Catholic Church is still growing From 267 million Catholics in 1900 to 1.05 billion in 2000 and 1.36 billion today, the Catholic Church has expanded more through the last 100 years than any time in its 2,000 years of existence.
The 2x2 Church was founded in 1897 in Ireland by William Irvine, an evangelist with the interdenominational Faith Mission. Irvine began independently preaching a return to the method of itinerant ministry he claimed was set forth in Matthew 10.
Think the Roman Catholic Church may have got it right. They preached Christ, not that their Church was the only right one because of some minor technical argument.
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nathan2
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Nathan again
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Post by nathan2 on Jun 25, 2024 0:29:28 GMT -5
It's a historical fact that the Roman Catholic Church started the job almost 2000 Years before the 2x2's were invented. They are still growing, 2x2ism is in decline. The Catholic Church is still growing From 267 million Catholics in 1900 to 1.05 billion in 2000 and 1.36 billion today, the Catholic Church has expanded more through the last 100 years than any time in its 2,000 years of existence. The 2x2 Church was founded in 1897 in Ireland by William Irvine, an evangelist with the interdenominational Faith Mission. Irvine began independently preaching a return to the method of itinerant ministry he claimed was set forth in Matthew 10. Think the Roman Catholic Church may have got it right. They preached Christ, not that their Church was the only right one because of some minor technical argument. You don’t know your church history 100 % correctly but you entitled to your opinion. Matthew 10 came from the Faith Mission John Govan founder in 1895 NOT from William Irvine own idea. William Irvine and the early 2x2 workers got the Mathew 10 from John Govan the Faith Mission. John Govan, William Irvine and 2x2 workers got the idea from Jesus Christ who started Matthew 10 back 2000 years ago. The RCC was part of the true church just like the Vaudois Christian back in 67 AD. The RCC went off the tracks when they incorporate pagans practices, rituals, false doctrines into their church to bring in more converts. They made turned their sect into pagans religion mixed with Christianity READ WHAT John the apostle had foretold about them in Rev. chapters 17-18. The Vaudois Christians were Paul’s own converts in Rome kept true to Jesus 2x2 apostolic ministry for 1800 years insisted of the RCC horrific persecution and seeking to wipe them off the map so, they can be the ONLY true church of God on earth. However, God has preserved Christ New Test. Church through the Vaudois for 1800 years READ Rev. chapters 11-12 God and Christ revealed it to John the apostle, he saw the future and wrote it for us to understand it.
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