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Post by snow on Aug 24, 2023 14:32:12 GMT -5
I know and agree with you on that. I was really making the point that we don't know of any incidents of anyone giving anything of value to Jesus or his disciples. We know they had money, because they handled it in the normal manner of people in their day and age. Under what circumstanced and from whom did they acquire money. He undoubtedly had no home, or he'd have had a place to lay his head. Maybe he did sleep on a sidewalk, on occasion, and/or taken money from strangers who felt sorry for him. I'm just not convinced that the workers "earn" more money than the homeless person on the sidewalk. They claim that their product is free, after all. Women were mentioned as supporting Jesus and the apostles... I wonder why it was only women? |
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Post by Persona non grata on Aug 24, 2023 16:42:49 GMT -5
Women were mentioned as supporting Jesus and the apostles... I wonder why it was only women? Although not only women, it does seem like it was mostly women, and I wonder if it may have been because: - Jesus was a rebel, challenging societal norms and treating women with respect and dignity; - Women tend to have more empathy, and a heighted awareness of the needs of others; - They were drawn towards the compassion that Jesus showed to the marginalised and the oppressed, and they felt comfortable being in his presence. (Overseers take note!) |
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Post by snow on Aug 25, 2023 12:30:56 GMT -5
I wonder why it was only women? Although not only women, it does seem like it was mostly women, and I wonder if it may have been because: - Jesus was a rebel, challenging societal norms and treating women with respect and dignity; - Women tend to have more empathy, and a heighted awareness of the needs of others; - They were drawn towards the compassion that Jesus showed to the marginalised and the oppressed, and they felt comfortable being in his presence. (Overseers take note!) Could be. I find it interesting that there were so many wealthy women that had control of the money back then. The Gnostics believed that Mary Magdalene was one of Jesus' apostles and that because she was a woman and Peter didn't like her she never got mentioned in the RCC version of the bible. Not as an apostle anyway. The Gospel of Mary Magdalene shows she held a fairly high status with the group and others chastised Peter for saying bad things about her and being angry that she was the favorite. She seems to have held a place of status even in the regular bible versions. The RCC wanted to be patriarchal so her gospel just wouldn't do I suppose. The Gnostics placed more emphasis on the equality of women in Christianity, more like what Jesus actually did. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 27, 2023 12:33:52 GMT -5
Yes I've heard that many don't even read a bible, they just take in what they are told in church, that's if they go to church. Someone in our meeting was told not to read the Bible and was given a Catholic book to read instead when she was in the Catholic church. And she said she had a shock when she did read the Bible, it was different to what she had been taught. She also said that when she told the priest and counteracted something he said with a quote from the Bible, he told her that the Bible was just for the priests and that she was going to hell for reading it. She was thinking of leaving the church at the time after reading the Bible, and he came to see her to see why, and when he found out she was reading the Bible he went mad with her, so she definitely left the church then. Also a lot of people here take their babies to be christened in church, have a big party and everything but don't ever go to church, not ever. I got invited to one not long ago, I asked the girl if she believed in God, she said yes, so I asked if she goes to the church that she was getting their baby christened into, and she said no. So I then asked why are you doing it if you never go? And she said it was to please her parents, I explained the way I believe regarding churches and in God, and told her I'm sorry but I won't be going, she understood. The thing is it was my nephew's baby, and he was only doing it to please his girl as he didn't want to do it, and it was only her and not him who told me she was only doing it to please others, and yet they had to pay for it all and they don't earn much. Then she told me it cost a lot of money, and it was things like £9 per song to sing, and £13 to put pictures on a tv and more if they wanted another TV to show pictures. It's absolutely crazy and just a money making scheme for some churches who are cloaked in their false beliefs and saying they they believe in Jesus and then make money from him. My birth family is like that. They do go to church most of the time, but when I quote bible verses that are 'challenging' to hear, they don't know about them. When I get a bible and read them to them, they are shocked and say they have to ask their pastor. I never do hear back from them though about what they think of it and what the pastor said. I know the bible better than a lot of really 'devout' Christians. So many people listen just to what the minister says and don't read the Bible for themselves. And even those who do read it, a lot of them say they believe and don't live by it. I've seen many say they don't have to do anything Jesus did it all, yet we were reading Hebrews 10 in our meeting this morning which says the total opposite. We are to live by the word of God not just say we believe and don't do anything else. And it's a shame your family can't even try to answer you, maybe you'd be better off speaking to their pastor to see what he says. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 27, 2023 12:36:34 GMT -5
Well if today's Christians think that, then they are not true Christians, or as I rather say followers of Christ. Because Jesus taught and showed us the true way to live, and if it's not good enough for them then tough luck. His way is the way and no one should try and change it. Did Jesus work for a living? Yes he did the work of God, and God looked after him. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 27, 2023 12:42:44 GMT -5
Then I wouldn't give them money but get them some food. Or offer them food and if they reject it, or act like you said and walk out in disgust then so be it, but I've at least offered them food and done what's right. Although I always think what my uncle said, he said that £1 to me isn't much but it could be a drink to someone in need. He said give and leave God to judge as we don't know what they've been through in their lives. So I only gave £1 and that's enough for a drink. If they needed food when I asked, then I would get them some if I can. But they need MONEY to get a place to sleep safely. I was speaking to a woman who helps the homeless here, and she told me that all those in our town have a place to sleep at night, they have a hall with beds in and they have a food bank there and clothing bank. She told me not to give money to them as most of them are on drugs, but if I want to give anything give food and drink, she said that they are also entitled to benefits from the government and she said they get a lot of money given to them on the streets and use it for their habits, it's so sad. So I give them food and drink, but I also still give a little bit of money sometimes too, as it must be hard to be on the streets, even if they do have a bed for the night. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 27, 2023 12:48:53 GMT -5
I wanted to know what he did for the food, clothing, and money he had. How did he get that? She lived like Jesus -- on the contributions of others. Bad argument. You don't provide food, clothing, and housing for a family of three on a $300 a week, minus deductions. If she can double it the way she does, she's smart.
Jesus healed hundreds, fed thousands, and walked over 3000 miles to spread the his gospel. People provided for his needs because of what he offered, what he did, and what he promised.
She didn't live like Jesus because Jesus wasn't a beggar who offered nothing. People gave because they saw the good spiritual work Jesus brought to them, and they got much more than they could ever pay for.
If you don't make enough to provide for yourself, perhaps you shouldn't be having kids and demanding the rest of society feed and house you.. A smart person doesn't need to swindle others out of money.
Everyone's got a poor-me excuse, but we all put ourselves in bad circumstances. I don't oppose giving a person a hand, but not when they make a living off the pity & compassion of others. We all pay for medicaid, food stamps (Snap), public housing, etc.. So we are all already taxed to pay for the poor.
Not all people on the streets use poor me excuses, and they don't all put themselves in bad circumstances. Some have been abused, suffered marriage breakup and become homeless, or lost their job and home, or are veterans who have been through war and it's affected them so much that they can't cope etc. We can't judge them, we don't know what they have been through, and we should help when we can. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 27, 2023 15:52:35 GMT -5
Not all people on the streets use poor me excuses, and they don't all put themselves in bad circumstances. Some have been abused, suffered marriage breakup and become homeless, or lost their job and home, or are veterans who have been through war and it's affected them so much that they can't cope etc. We can't judge them, we don't know what they have been through, and we should help when we can.
I understand that there are people who are desperate and genuinely in need of assistance. My point was to beware of shysters who solicit money under a false pretense.
You need to judge them in order to determine if the need is real or phoney. If they claim they need work while simultaneously rejecting a job offer, they're faking it. If they need food but demand money, they're hustling you.
If your convince that you should give money without judging a persons real situation, I'm going through a tough time myself right now, so I'd appreciate 3 hundred thousand dollars. 
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Post by maryhig on Aug 27, 2023 19:48:29 GMT -5
Not all people on the streets use poor me excuses, and they don't all put themselves in bad circumstances. Some have been abused, suffered marriage breakup and become homeless, or lost their job and home, or are veterans who have been through war and it's affected them so much that they can't cope etc. We can't judge them, we don't know what they have been through, and we should help when we can.
I understand that there are people who are desperate and genuinely in need of assistance. My point was to beware of shysters who solicit money under a false pretense.
You need to judge them in order to determine if the need is real or phoney. If they claim they need work while simultaneously rejecting a job offer, they're faking it. If they need food but demand money, they're hustling you.
If your convince that you should give money without judging a persons real situation, I'm going through a tough time myself right now, so I'd appreciate 3 hundred thousand dollars.
I don't give much money, I would mostly give food and drink, but if I know for definite they were fraudsters I'd tell them straight. By the way, if you truly needed money and I had it I would help you if I could. But I'm afraid it wouldn't be anywhere near three hundred thousand pounds. I don't think I'll have that much in my lifetime😊 |
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Post by Dan on Aug 27, 2023 22:01:49 GMT -5
I understand that there are people who are desperate and genuinely in need of assistance. My point was to beware of shysters who solicit money under a false pretense.
You need to judge them in order to determine if the need is real or phoney. If they claim they need work while simultaneously rejecting a job offer, they're faking it. If they need food but demand money, they're hustling you.
If your convince that you should give money without judging a persons real situation, I'm going through a tough time myself right now, so I'd appreciate 3 hundred thousand dollars.
I don't give much money, I would mostly give food and drink, but if I know for definite they were fraudsters I'd tell them straight. By the way, if you truly needed money and I had it I would help you if I could. But I'm afraid it wouldn't be anywhere near three hundred thousand pounds. I don't think I'll have that much in my lifetime😊
That's cool, we're on the same page.. I don't need money, I was just pulling your chain .. Sometime nice people are taken in by a sob story and naively throw money at a fake cause.
I'm embarrassed to admit that I fell for this little scammer myself, but I don't regret it .
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 28, 2023 0:33:59 GMT -5
Did Jesus work for a living? Yes he did the work of God, and God looked after him. That's not labor for payment. It's charity. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 28, 2023 0:36:42 GMT -5
But they need MONEY to get a place to sleep safely. I was speaking to a woman who helps the homeless here, and she told me that all those in our town have a place to sleep at night, they have a hall with beds in and they have a food bank there and clothing bank. She told me not to give money to them as most of them are on drugs, but if I want to give anything give food and drink, she said that they are also entitled to benefits from the government and she said they get a lot of money given to them on the streets and use it for their habits, it's so sad. So I give them food and drink, but I also still give a little bit of money sometimes too, as it must be hard to be on the streets, even if they do have a bed for the night. But it's not working, except to make the donors feel good they've given something. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 28, 2023 0:40:15 GMT -5
Why don't the workers just acknowledge that they live on the charity of the friends?
It's true in part -- except for the workers who ask for money.
Heck, in the beginning they accepted charity from anyone who offered it, apparently.
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Post by Dan on Aug 28, 2023 15:54:45 GMT -5
Why don't the workers just acknowledge that they live on the charity of the friends? It's true in part -- except for the workers who ask for money. Heck, in the beginning they accepted charity from anyone who offered it, apparently.
Preaching is just a nonpaying job and is supported by donations.. In the old testament they were compensated by a mandatory 10% from everyone, but now they are reliant/dependent on offerings. I don't consider it charity because it is work, and it isn't easy work despite what some might think.
I saw a piece on the news where homeless people were living in underground drain tunnels in Las Vegas.. Looked like a dire situation. |
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Post by Pragmatic on Aug 28, 2023 16:30:27 GMT -5
We live in a country where there are many government and social services available, and in general there is no need for someone to be sleeping on the streets.
However, we do have a number who decline offers of help, sometimes for mental health reasons, or simply they enjoy the company and camaraderie of others doing the same.
We have a couple fairly close to our office building who sleep rough, and the decline all offers. One does a bit of busking, and his guitar work was sufficiently good that he was offered a position in a band. He did play a few gigs, but it wasn't long, and he was back on the streets, and it was said that he couldn't handle the discipline required to practise, and rehearse. Too much wacky backy was a problem too, and turning up for a gig sober, or not under the influence, presented a problem for him. He declined help.
There was another case in Wellington of a street sleeper who had previously been an investment manager at a major bank. A mental health breakdown caused him to eschew all help after his marriage failed, and he slept rough. He would accept help though for food, and a couple of times I took him up to McDonalds and bought him breakfast.
I have also seen one lying prostrate on the foot path in Florence, Italy, holding a cup out for money, as I walked past. Having gone around the corner, I waited a minute, as it was quiet, and I returned to see him sitting upright, talking with a mate, and laughing. In his hand was the latest model iPhone.
I have also bought a burger for one in Melbourne, and was genuinely hungry and cold.
My lessons from life experiences are that we can't generalise, and as Christians should offer help where we can. However, it is good to discern, and not subsidise those who seek to scam us out of hard-worked cash that could be used for our own families, or those genuinely in need.
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Post by maryhig on Aug 29, 2023 7:29:43 GMT -5
Yes he did the work of God, and God looked after him. That's not labor for payment. It's charity. How do you know what he did though? He could have helped when seeing the need in his daily life, we don't know what he did. I'm sure he would have helped people everywhere and many may have fed him as he went along. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 29, 2023 7:32:02 GMT -5
I was speaking to a woman who helps the homeless here, and she told me that all those in our town have a place to sleep at night, they have a hall with beds in and they have a food bank there and clothing bank. She told me not to give money to them as most of them are on drugs, but if I want to give anything give food and drink, she said that they are also entitled to benefits from the government and she said they get a lot of money given to them on the streets and use it for their habits, it's so sad. So I give them food and drink, but I also still give a little bit of money sometimes too, as it must be hard to be on the streets, even if they do have a bed for the night. But it's not working, except to make the donors feel good they've given something. Eh? I don't feel like a goody two shoes when I give stuff to people, I feel for them because I see they are in need. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2023 2:55:19 GMT -5
Why don't the workers just acknowledge that they live on the charity of the friends? It's true in part -- except for the workers who ask for money. Heck, in the beginning they accepted charity from anyone who offered it, apparently. Preaching is just a nonpaying job and is supported by donations.. In the old testament they were compensated by a mandatory 10% from everyone, but now they are reliant/dependent on offerings. I don't consider it charity because it is work, and it isn't easy work despite what some might think.
I saw a piece on the news where homeless people were living in underground drain tunnels in Las Vegas.. Looked like a dire situation. I know you like that understanding of the whole setup. That's OK -- it satisfies your vision. But your 10% suggestion is really just a stab in the dark. On the other matter -- yes, Las Vegas has a whole hidden population of homeless people, many in tunnels. But some of them actually sleep on the sidewalks in some parts of the city. I had a house guest this past week who is documenting homelessness. Unfortunately, the tunnels are fine except if there's a bit of rain off in some mountains that will fill the tunnels with flash floods I decided one cold day that I didn't want a really heavy blanket that I got tired of, so I drove to a place where about a dozen such people were hanging out and approached them and asked if anyone wanted a heavy blanket. Most said no, but one fellow took it very eagerly and wrapped himself in it. It's really misguided of people to approach homeless people and expect them to take something just because you decided that's what they need. It a degrading address to the problem. It reminds me of the meeting elder who offered to buy me a KJV Bible because someone in the meeting seemed not to follow what I had quoted. I didn't need a KJV Bible -- there are at least a dozen in my house. At the time all I needed was the one that I found much easier to understand. My problem had nothing to do with my lack of a KJV Bible -- I just had another problem that he couldn't do anything about. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2023 3:05:16 GMT -5
That's not labor for payment. It's charity. How do you know what he did though? He could have helped when seeing the need in his daily life, we don't know what he did. I'm sure he would have helped people everywhere and many may have fed him as he went along. He could have. You agree with me -- we don't know what he did. Neither do we know under what circumstances he would have been given money. Charity is doing things for needy people. It's honorable. I'm tempted to suggest that after he fed the hundreds of people that they forgot the money tree he came upon before he got to the next town, when you're a miracle worker. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 30, 2023 3:08:59 GMT -5
But it's not working, except to make the donors feel good they've given something. Eh? I don't feel like a goody two shoes when I give stuff to people, I feel for them because I see they are in need. I believe you. You have to realize that you are neither the cause of their poverty, and you're not at all able to cure his problem. It's the system -- it's not working. It's a humanity problem. |
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Post by christiansburg on Aug 30, 2023 15:21:55 GMT -5
Women were mentioned as supporting Jesus and the apostles... I wonder why it was only women? Women are more compassionate than most men. The anointing was mentioned twice in the NT and it was by a woman both times. Strange it was only mentioned twice even thought it was a common practice when someone of prominence was a guest in the home. |
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