rob
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Post by rob on Aug 1, 2023 0:10:03 GMT -5
dan,
There there are those who have been abused and they certainly aren't looking for help or encouragement to leave!!!! They have no intention of leaving!!! Your smug 'Tipping out the door and not returning' is not a foregone conclusion! I personally know such people!
They have found Christ, have a living relationship with him (which it doesn't seem/appear many of Ross' cheerleaders/supporters on this thread have?) They know this church is God's place for them in spite of what has happened! They aren't of the 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater' mindset.
Of course those who you who 'know better', realise 'they have been brainwashed' đ đ¤
You and the cheerleaders/supporters 'know better' for such survivors! 
Ross' facade has no appeal and is of no relevance or interest to such.
They aren't interested in his 'tireless crusading' 'helping many to leave the sect!'
I'm sure your correct that there are some who've chosen to remain silent and not come forward. Their loyalty to the Truth surpasses any abuse they may have encountered. But consider that anyone who's been sexually abused or harassed, and yet decides to stay in that environment, has been brainwashed. In the sense that they've been convinced that damnation awaits them if they leave the Truth, so they ill-advisedly choose the lesser of 2 evils.
I agree that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you can't condemn everyone for the misbehavior of a few. Its a sad scenario whether your on the inside or outside.
My main point was that if a woman is being repeatedly beaten by her husband, its recommended that she separate herself from her spouse, flee the abuse, and find a safe haven. Some women, to their own detriment, refuse to comply with that advise because they're committed to their marriage. I suspect its the same with some professing victims, they stay because they're committed to the Way, so they prefer to endure the abuse? Its a psychological phenomena that I don't pretend to comprehend, some sort of masochistic Christian syndrome?
Yes, but âLoyalty to the Truthâ is a fallacy brought about by guilt. The 2x2 system is not the âTruthâ, quite the opposite actually. Those at the top of the power system use Guilt and distorted interpretation of ancient wisdom in scripture to manipulate people to believe that they offer the guilty a path to peace. And ultimately a place in some utopia that doesnât actually exist, if theyâve done enough to earn it. If one breaks it all down to, why are you doing this, itâs all about a selfish intent to live forever in some utopia. When the real message from the ancient Hebrew wisdom, is how to be best person you can possibly be in whatever circumstances life dishes up. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 1, 2023 1:37:25 GMT -5
I'm sure your correct that there are some who've chosen to remain silent and not come forward. Their loyalty to the Truth surpasses any abuse they may have encountered. But consider that anyone who's been sexually abused or harassed, and yet decides to stay in that environment, has been brainwashed. In the sense that they've been convinced that damnation awaits them if they leave the Truth, so they ill-advisedly choose the lesser of 2 evils.
I agree that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you can't condemn everyone for the misbehavior of a few. Its a sad scenario whether your on the inside or outside.
My main point was that if a woman is being repeatedly beaten by her husband, its recommended that she separate herself from her spouse, flee the abuse, and find a safe haven. Some women, to their own detriment, refuse to comply with that advise because they're committed to their marriage. I suspect its the same with some professing victims, they stay because they're committed to the Way, so they prefer to endure the abuse? Its a psychological phenomena that I don't pretend to comprehend, some sort of masochistic Christian syndrome?
Yes, but âLoyalty to the Truthâ is a fallacy brought about by guilt. The 2x2 system is not the âTruthâ, quite the opposite actually. Those at the top of the power system use Guilt and distorted interpretation of ancient wisdom in scripture to manipulate people to believe that they offer the guilty a path to peace. And ultimately a place in some utopia that doesnât actually exist, if theyâve done enough to earn it. If one breaks it all down to, why are you doing this, itâs all about a selfish intent to live forever in some utopia. When the real message from the ancient Hebrew wisdom, is how to be best person you can possibly be in whatever circumstances life dishes up.
I agree that the 'Truth' was, is, and always will be Christ (John 14:6). Those who teach, preach, believe, and follow Jesus are not themselves the Truth, but are on the path to truth. They believe the ministry was established by Jesus when he sent his apostles out as itinerant preachers in pairs (Matthew 10). I don't think that's distorting anything, its says what it says. Salvation is the real message, heaven is an eternal utopia that does exist, its acquired by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).
We are all guilty, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (John 16:8). But I agree that no church does the saving, they merely lead people to the one who does. And its he who took our sins upon himself, defeating death for all that believe in him. As he asked the woman caught in adultery, "Woman, where are those thine accusers?" (John 8:10). The adversary accuses us, but he was defeated at Calvary and can not condemn a believer who repents. There's no power system on earth that can invalidate Christ defeating death for all that believe in him.
Being a good person (good works) will supplement your reward, but salvation is not earned. I don't think Workers use guilt to manipulate people, but some are judgmental in a condemning fashion over what I consider trivial things. Jesus never commented over how someone was dressed, he never told a woman to never cut her hair, he didn't hide from sinners or avoid them, in fact he ate with them (Mark 2:15). Remember the Pharisees telling Jesus that his disciples violated the hand washing ritual in Matthew 15:2? There was no law, just their own tradition where they'd symbolically dip their hands in water. Reminds me of some of the superficial professing rules.
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Post by dsmith on Aug 1, 2023 2:41:52 GMT -5
Yes, but âLoyalty to the Truthâ is a fallacy brought about by guilt. The 2x2 system is not the âTruthâ, quite the opposite actually. Those at the top of the power system use Guilt and distorted interpretation of ancient wisdom in scripture to manipulate people to believe that they offer the guilty a path to peace. And ultimately a place in some utopia that doesnât actually exist, if theyâve done enough to earn it. If one breaks it all down to, why are you doing this, itâs all about a selfish intent to live forever in some utopia. When the real message from the ancient Hebrew wisdom, is how to be best person you can possibly be in whatever circumstances life dishes up.
I agree that the 'Truth' was, is, and always will be Christ (John 14:6). Those who teach, preach, believe, and follow Jesus are not themselves the Truth, but are on the path to truth. They believe the ministry was established by Jesus when he sent his apostles out as itinerant preachers in pairs (Matthew 10). I don't think that's distorting anything, its says what it says. Salvation is the real message, heaven is an eternal utopia that does exist, its acquired by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).Â
We are all guilty, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (John 16:8). But I agree that no church does the saving, they merely lead people to the one who does. And its he who took our sins upon himself, defeating death for all that believe in him. As he asked the woman caught in adultery, "Woman, where are those thine accusers?" (John 8:10). The adversary accuses us, but he was defeated at Calvary and can not condemn a believer who repents. There's no power system on earth that can invalidate Christ defeating death for all that believe in him.
Being a good person (good works) will supplement your reward, but salvation is not earned. I don't think Workers use guilt to manipulate people, but some are judgmental in a condemning fashion over what I consider trivial things. Jesus never commented over how someone was dressed, he never told a woman to never cut her hair, he didn't hide from sinners or avoid them, in fact he ate with them (Mark 2:15). Remember the Pharisees telling Jesus that his disciples violated the hand washing ritual in Matthew 15:2? There was no law, just their own tradition where they'd symbolically dip their hands in water. Reminds me of some of the superficial professing rules. Â
âBut I agree that no church does the saving, they merely lead people to the one who doesâ. Yes and as said on another forum - God sacrificed his son for the sins of the world and then the workers preach that they hold the key to our salvation - how arrogant. |
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Post by chuck on Aug 1, 2023 17:02:32 GMT -5
Yes, but âLoyalty to the Truthâ is a fallacy brought about by guilt. The 2x2 system is not the âTruthâ, quite the opposite actually. Those at the top of the power system use Guilt and distorted interpretation of ancient wisdom in scripture to manipulate people to believe that they offer the guilty a path to peace. And ultimately a place in some utopia that doesnât actually exist, if theyâve done enough to earn it. If one breaks it all down to, why are you doing this, itâs all about a selfish intent to live forever in some utopia. When the real message from the ancient Hebrew wisdom, is how to be best person you can possibly be in whatever circumstances life dishes up.
I agree that the 'Truth' was, is, and always will be Christ (John 14:6). Those who teach, preach, believe, and follow Jesus are not themselves the Truth, but are on the path to truth. They believe the ministry was established by Jesus when he sent his apostles out as itinerant preachers in pairs (Matthew 10). I don't think that's distorting anything, its says what it says. Salvation is the real message, heaven is an eternal utopia that does exist, its acquired by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8).Â
We are all guilty, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (John 16:8). But I agree that no church does the saving, they merely lead people to the one who does. And its he who took our sins upon himself, defeating death for all that believe in him. As he asked the woman caught in adultery, "Woman, where are those thine accusers?" (John 8:10). The adversary accuses us, but he was defeated at Calvary and can not condemn a believer who repents. There's no power system on earth that can invalidate Christ defeating death for all that believe in him.
Being a good person (good works) will supplement your reward, but salvation is not earned. I don't think Workers use guilt to manipulate people, but some are judgmental in a condemning fashion over what I consider trivial things. Jesus never commented over how someone was dressed, he never told a woman to never cut her hair, he didn't hide from sinners or avoid them, in fact he ate with them (Mark 2:15). Remember the Pharisees telling Jesus that his disciples violated the hand washing ritual in Matthew 15:2? There was no law, just their own tradition where they'd symbolically dip their hands in water. Reminds me of some of the superficial professing rules. Â
Guilt is fundemental to their system. Religious people invent the problem, tell you the problem is your fault and you should feel guilty about it, but then they also then just happen to have the solution to the problem and if you give them the power they will fix it.... at a small cost of course đ |
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Post by snow on Aug 1, 2023 17:30:01 GMT -5
I agree that the 'Truth' was, is, and always will be Christ (John 14:6). Those who teach, preach, believe, and follow Jesus are not themselves the Truth, but are on the path to truth. They believe the ministry was established by Jesus when he sent his apostles out as itinerant preachers in pairs (Matthew 10). I don't think that's distorting anything, its says what it says. Salvation is the real message, heaven is an eternal utopia that does exist, its acquired by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8). We are all guilty, the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin (John 16:8). But I agree that no church does the saving, they merely lead people to the one who does. And its he who took our sins upon himself, defeating death for all that believe in him. As he asked the woman caught in adultery, "Woman, where are those thine accusers?" (John 8:10). The adversary accuses us, but he was defeated at Calvary and can not condemn a believer who repents. There's no power system on earth that can invalidate Christ defeating death for all that believe in him.
Being a good person (good works) will supplement your reward, but salvation is not earned. I don't think Workers use guilt to manipulate people, but some are judgmental in a condemning fashion over what I consider trivial things. Jesus never commented over how someone was dressed, he never told a woman to never cut her hair, he didn't hide from sinners or avoid them, in fact he ate with them (Mark 2:15). Remember the Pharisees telling Jesus that his disciples violated the hand washing ritual in Matthew 15:2? There was no law, just their own tradition where they'd symbolically dip their hands in water. Reminds me of some of the superficial professing rules. Â
Guilt is fundemental to their system. Religious people invent the problem, tell you the problem is your fault and you should feel guilty about it, but then they also then just happen to have the solution to the problem and if you give them the power they will fix it.... at a small cost of course đ In my world, that's the definition of God. Creates us, tells us we're guilty of original sin, kills his son to save us but sends us to hell if we don't accept his 'fix'. |
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Post by chuck on Aug 1, 2023 17:51:49 GMT -5
Guilt is fundemental to their system. Religious people invent the problem, tell you the problem is your fault and you should feel guilty about it, but then they also then just happen to have the solution to the problem and if you give them the power they will fix it.... at a small cost of course đ In my world, that's the definition of God. Creates us, tells us we're guilty of original sin, kills his son to save us but sends us to hell if we don't accept his 'fix'. I know what you are saying and to some extent I agree. I just don't think that's what the Hebrew people were literally saying though. I think they were saying when you sin you kill the Christ character and that makes your life hell if it becomes habitual. |
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Post by chuck on Aug 1, 2023 17:55:24 GMT -5
The "original sin" and "jesus dying for our sins" were ideas that come along after the first century.
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Post by Dan on Aug 1, 2023 20:49:15 GMT -5
The "original sin" and "jesus dying for our sins" were ideas that come along after the first century.
The original sin occurred long before the 1st century, "She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." (Genesis 3:6). Jesus wasn't a post 1st century idea either, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". (John 1:29).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2023 20:58:08 GMT -5
You don't know what you have until its gone/lost... What was lost? Unhappy outside the Truth? Guess what? You've just realized you don't know what you had until its gone...not unique to any church just a fact of life. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2023 21:01:53 GMT -5
The "original sin" and "jesus dying for our sins" were ideas that come along after the first century. Nope, you can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. Who does that remind you of? Those darn Hebrews. Who do you follow? The Hebraic mindset of the Hebrews (which was not 100% the way you (picture it)). Any questions why you don't get it anymore? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2023 21:06:44 GMT -5
The "original sin" and "jesus dying for our sins" were ideas that come along after the first century.
The original sin occurred long before the 1st century, "She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." (Genesis 3:6). Jesus wasn't a post 1st century idea either, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". (John 1:29).
Chucks pretending to be a Christian for a bit now all the while being atheistic behind a wall of Hebraic "thought".  |
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Post by dsmith on Aug 1, 2023 22:04:49 GMT -5
Unhappy outside the Truth? Guess what? You've just realized you don't know what you had until itâs gone...not unique to any church just a fact of life. Nope nothing lost and certainly not unhappy đ |
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Post by mod7 on Aug 1, 2023 22:16:23 GMT -5
For posts moved from the thread TBTA (and other posts on these topics).
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Post by chuck on Aug 1, 2023 23:37:30 GMT -5
The "original sin" and "jesus dying for our sins" were ideas that come along after the first century.
The original sin occurred long before the 1st century, "She took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." (Genesis 3:6). Jesus wasn't a post 1st century idea either, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world". (John 1:29).Â
Yes the Christ character did take away the sin of the world in that time, the Christ character was the opposite to Caeser's character or world, Christ served, Caeser ruled. Christ was gracious and compassionate, Caeser wasn't. The Christ character displayed made sin go away...... The writer was not telling you that a man called Jesus was was child sacrificed so you somehow 2000yrs later have your slate wiped clean.... Anselm of Canterbury gave you that idea 1000yrs after Jesus. Same story for original sin, you ideas of original sin were concocted by some other religious person thousands of years after that story was actually conveyed. You are reading it through the lenses made by people long after the first century whose roots go back to a totally different way of thinking compared tonthe Hebrew people. Greeks think form. Hebrews think function. |
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Post by chuck on Aug 1, 2023 23:43:30 GMT -5
The "original sin" and "jesus dying for our sins" were ideas that come along after the first century. Nope, you can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. Who does that remind you of? Those darn Hebrews. Who do you follow? The Hebraic mindset of the Hebrews (which was not 100% the way you (picture it)). Any questions why you don't get it anymore? Jesus was a Hebrew.......I think its important to understand that culture otherwise you just turn scripture into a weapon and end up supporting a bunch of mind controlling nut jobs who dont know what they are talking about. The evidence is laid out and you have the hubris to still call it "the truth" |
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Post by tulip2 on Aug 2, 2023 1:58:46 GMT -5
Guilt is fundamental to their system. Religious people invent the problem, tell you the problem is your fault and you should feel guilty about it, but then they also then just happen to have the solution to the problem and if you give them the power they will fix it.... at a small cost of course đ In my world, that's the definition of God. Creates us, tells us we're guilty of original sin, kills his son to save us but sends us to hell if we don't accept his 'fix'. I think biblically we're meant to view hell not as a place, but state (of existence). When Adam sinned, he "died", not physically but death in scripture refers to separation from God. Adam and all humanity thereafter is born with a nature that is inherently separated from God: Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." After sinning, Adam didn't die physically but his death was a spiritual death (i.e. separation from relationship with God, his creator). So are we all born into this world. In Revelation a "second death" is mentioned (which as a theme winds throughout all of scripture). So "eternal life" is living in relationship with our creator God forever, whereas "hell" is a state of eternal separation from God, a spiritual separation forever following our first, physical death. It was one of the recent popes who defined hell as "Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." Speaking as a Christian, hell for us would be separation from the relationship we have come to know and value and enjoy during physical life here, which indeed is a spiritual relationship that simply continues (spiritually, distinct from physically) after physical death. For me, to be separated from my relationship with God, either in this (physical) life, or eternally (spiritually) after physical death, would definitely be unimaginable hell! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 2:04:57 GMT -5
Nope, you can't see the forest for all the trees in the way. Who does that remind you of? Those darn Hebrews. Who do you follow? The Hebraic mindset of the Hebrews (which was not 100% the way you (picture it)). Any questions why you don't get it anymore? Jesus was a Hebrew.......I think its important to understand that culture otherwise you just turn scripture into a weapon and end up supporting a bunch of mind controlling nut jobs who dont know what they are talking about. The evidence is laid out and you have the hubris to still call it "the truth" He was the Ultimate Hebrew and nothing like the ones (Hebraic mindset) you "worship" now. It wasn't being a Hebrew that made him the Christ it was God and his nature. Hopefully someday you'll get it figured out and get back to God/Christ/HS before the F. |
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Post by chuck on Aug 2, 2023 2:16:09 GMT -5
Jesus was a Hebrew.......I think its important to understand that culture otherwise you just turn scripture into a weapon and end up supporting a bunch of mind controlling nut jobs who dont know what they are talking about. The evidence is laid out and you have the hubris to still call it "the truth" He was the Ultimate Hebrew and nothing like the ones (Hebraic mindset) you "worship" now. It wasn't being a Hebrew that made him the Christ it was God and his nature. Hopefully someday you'll get it figured out and get back to God/Christ/HS before the F. I dont like your god/christ/hs, he is a safe haven for abusers and then good people like the TBTA ect have to pick up the pieces of lives your spiritual guiders screwed over...... The evidence does not lie and continues to this very day, they are incapable of telling the truth confirmed again today by another lie from the ministry to its flock. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 2:21:55 GMT -5
He was the Ultimate Hebrew and nothing like the ones (Hebraic mindset) you "worship" now. It wasn't being a Hebrew that made him the Christ it was God and his nature. Hopefully someday you'll get it figured out and get back to God/Christ/HS before the F. I dont like your god/christ/hs, he is a safe haven for abusers and then good people like the TBTA ect have to pick up the pieces of lives your spiritual guiders screwed over...... The evidence does not lie and continues to this very day, they are incapable of telling the truth confirmed again today by another lie from the ministry to its flock. There is only one God/Christ/HS and you'll never be a Ghandhi... |
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Post by chuck on Aug 2, 2023 2:29:27 GMT -5
I dont like your god/christ/hs, he is a safe haven for abusers and then good people like the TBTA ect have to pick up the pieces of lives your spiritual guiders screwed over...... The evidence does not lie and continues to this very day, they are incapable of telling the truth confirmed again today by another lie from the ministry to its flock. There is only one God/Christ/HS and you'll never be a Ghandhi... Yep and we are seeing what YOUR! one god/christ/hs is doing to people. The L O R D is destroying your city wally.....Sodom and Gomorrah all over again..... |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 2:35:09 GMT -5
There is only one God/Christ/HS and you'll never be a Ghandhi... Yep and we are seeing what YOUR! one god/christ/hs is doing to people. The L O R D is destroying your city wally.....Sodom and Gomorrah all over again..... No, that would be people doing bad things to people...your confusion is showing again....  A typical Chuckite only on days ending with Y.  |
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Post by chuck on Aug 2, 2023 2:47:51 GMT -5
Yep and we are seeing what YOUR! one god/christ/hs is doing to people. The L O R D is destroying your city wally.....Sodom and Gomorrah all over again..... No, that would be people doing bad things to people...your confusion is showing again.... A typical Chuckite only on days ending with Y. Â Own goal. You can have the last word wally. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 2, 2023 7:59:10 GMT -5
I'm sure your correct that there are some who've chosen to remain silent and not come forward. Their loyalty to the Truth surpasses any abuse they may have encountered. But consider that anyone who's been sexually abused or harassed, and yet decides to stay in that environment, has been brainwashed. In the sense that they've been convinced that damnation awaits them if they leave the Truth, so they ill-advisedly choose the lesser of 2 evils.
I agree that you don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, you can't condemn everyone for the misbehavior of a few. Its a sad scenario whether your on the inside or outside.
My main point was that if a woman is being repeatedly beaten by her husband, its recommended that she separate herself from her spouse, flee the abuse, and find a safe haven. Some women, to their own detriment, refuse to comply with that advise because they're committed to their marriage. I suspect its the same with some professing victims, they stay because they're committed to the Way, so they prefer to endure the abuse? Its a psychological phenomena that I don't pretend to comprehend, some sort of masochistic Christian syndrome?
Yes, but âLoyalty to the Truthâ is a fallacy brought about by guilt. The 2x2 system is not the âTruthâ, quite the opposite actually. Those at the top of the power system use Guilt and distorted interpretation of ancient wisdom in scripture to manipulate people to believe that they offer the guilty a path to peace. And ultimately a place in some utopia that doesnât actually exist, if theyâve done enough to earn it. If one breaks it all down to, why are you doing this, itâs all about a selfish intent to live forever in some utopia. When the real message from the ancient Hebrew wisdom, is how to be best person you can possibly be in whatever circumstances life dishes up. The truth is the way that Jesus taught and lived, he is the way, the truth and the life. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 2, 2023 10:26:49 GMT -5
No, that would be people doing bad things to people...your confusion is showing again.... A typical Chuckite only on days ending with Y. Own goal. You can have the last word wally. Thanks, I'll take it, get back to God/Christ/HS and your obvious confusion will go away. Worshipping Hebrews or their culture and language will not end well... |
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Post by snow on Aug 2, 2023 13:40:11 GMT -5
In my world, that's the definition of God. Creates us, tells us we're guilty of original sin, kills his son to save us but sends us to hell if we don't accept his 'fix'. I think biblically we're meant to view hell not as a place, but state (of existence). When Adam sinned, he "died", not physically but death in scripture refers to separation from God. Adam and all humanity thereafter is born with a nature that is inherently separated from God: Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." After sinning, Adam didn't die physically but his death was a spiritual death (i.e. separation from relationship with God, his creator). So are we all born into this world. In Revelation a "second death" is mentioned (which as a theme winds throughout all of scripture). So "eternal life" is living in relationship with our creator God forever, whereas "hell" is a state of eternal separation from God, a spiritual separation forever following our first, physical death. It was one of the recent popes who defined hell as "Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." Speaking as a Christian, hell for us would be separation from the relationship we have come to know and value and enjoy during physical life here, which indeed is a spiritual relationship that simply continues (spiritually, distinct from physically) after physical death. For me, to be separated from my relationship with God, either in this (physical) life, or eternally (spiritually) after physical death, would definitely be unimaginable hell! I agree that the RCC in the beginning defined hell and now they are redefining what hell is. A separation from God. As an atheist I obviously don't believe a god exists and I'm not going through hell being 'separated' from a relationship with a god. What I do see though is how we can make our lives hell when we cheat, lie, steal and don't allow empathy and compassion for others into our lives. Commonsense attributes that make our world a happier place for everyone when they are practiced. No relationship with god is required to practice compassion and empathy for others, or respect for other's belongings, feelings etc. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Aug 2, 2023 18:44:12 GMT -5
I think biblically we're meant to view hell not as a place, but state (of existence). When Adam sinned, he "died", not physically but death in scripture refers to separation from God. Adam and all humanity thereafter is born with a nature that is inherently separated from God: Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." After sinning, Adam didn't die physically but his death was a spiritual death (i.e. separation from relationship with God, his creator). So are we all born into this world. In Revelation a "second death" is mentioned (which as a theme winds throughout all of scripture). So "eternal life" is living in relationship with our creator God forever, whereas "hell" is a state of eternal separation from God, a spiritual separation forever following our first, physical death. It was one of the recent popes who defined hell as "Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." Speaking as a Christian, hell for us would be separation from the relationship we have come to know and value and enjoy during physical life here, which indeed is a spiritual relationship that simply continues (spiritually, distinct from physically) after physical death. For me, to be separated from my relationship with God, either in this (physical) life, or eternally (spiritually) after physical death, would definitely be unimaginable hell! I agree that the RCC in the beginning defined hell and now they are redefining what hell is. A separation from God. As an atheist I obviously don't believe a god exists and I'm not going through hell being 'separated' from a relationship with a god. What I do see though is how we can make our lives hell when we cheat, lie, steal and don't allow empathy and compassion for others into our lives. Commonsense attributes that make our world a happier place for everyone when they are practiced. No relationship with god is required to practice compassion and empathy for others, or respect for other's belongings, feelings etc. Perhaps practicing respect, compassion and empathy for others IS part of a relationship with God, whether you choose to use that terminology or not? |
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Post by chuck on Aug 2, 2023 21:17:12 GMT -5
I think biblically we're meant to view hell not as a place, but state (of existence). When Adam sinned, he "died", not physically but death in scripture refers to separation from God. Adam and all humanity thereafter is born with a nature that is inherently separated from God: Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." After sinning, Adam didn't die physically but his death was a spiritual death (i.e. separation from relationship with God, his creator). So are we all born into this world. In Revelation a "second death" is mentioned (which as a theme winds throughout all of scripture). So "eternal life" is living in relationship with our creator God forever, whereas "hell" is a state of eternal separation from God, a spiritual separation forever following our first, physical death. It was one of the recent popes who defined hell as "Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." Speaking as a Christian, hell for us would be separation from the relationship we have come to know and value and enjoy during physical life here, which indeed is a spiritual relationship that simply continues (spiritually, distinct from physically) after physical death. For me, to be separated from my relationship with God, either in this (physical) life, or eternally (spiritually) after physical death, would definitely be unimaginable hell! I agree that the RCC in the beginning defined hell and now they are redefining what hell is. A separation from God. As an atheist I obviously don't believe a god exists and I'm not going through hell being 'separated' from a relationship with a god. What I do see though is how we can make our lives hell when we cheat, lie, steal and don't allow empathy and compassion for others into our lives. Commonsense attributes that make our world a happier place for everyone when they are practiced. No relationship with god is required to practice compassion and empathy for others, or respect for other's belongings, feelings etc. "No relationship with god is required to practice compassion and empathy for others, or respect for other's belongings, feelings etc." A relationship with a god is exactly what is required, the problem here is what is a god (highest ideals or influence) in someone's life? The God the Hebrew people talk about is the L O R D, and what is that you ask.... Exodus 34:5-7 [5]And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD. [6]And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, [7]Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation. A relationship with God to the Hebrew people is a relationship ship with these character traits otherwise knows as the L O R D, it is not a relationship as we westerners visualise between two entities that exist. A relationship with the God named the L O R D is quite literally this "practice compassion and empathy for others, or respect for other's belongings, feelings etc." That's it. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 3, 2023 8:22:27 GMT -5
I think biblically we're meant to view hell not as a place, but state (of existence). When Adam sinned, he "died", not physically but death in scripture refers to separation from God. Adam and all humanity thereafter is born with a nature that is inherently separated from God: Romans 5:12: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned." After sinning, Adam didn't die physically but his death was a spiritual death (i.e. separation from relationship with God, his creator). So are we all born into this world. In Revelation a "second death" is mentioned (which as a theme winds throughout all of scripture). So "eternal life" is living in relationship with our creator God forever, whereas "hell" is a state of eternal separation from God, a spiritual separation forever following our first, physical death. It was one of the recent popes who defined hell as "Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy." Speaking as a Christian, hell for us would be separation from the relationship we have come to know and value and enjoy during physical life here, which indeed is a spiritual relationship that simply continues (spiritually, distinct from physically) after physical death. For me, to be separated from my relationship with God, either in this (physical) life, or eternally (spiritually) after physical death, would definitely be unimaginable hell! I agree that the RCC in the beginning defined hell and now they are redefining what hell is. A separation from God. As an atheist I obviously don't believe a god exists and I'm not going through hell being 'separated' from a relationship with a god. What I do see though is how we can make our lives hell when we cheat, lie, steal and don't allow empathy and compassion for others into our lives. Commonsense attributes that make our world a happier place for everyone when they are practiced. No relationship with god is required to practice compassion and empathy for others, or respect for other's belongings, feelings etc. We all sin, we all have wrong and right in our hearts, but what a relationship with God does is he helps you overcome the wrong you have and helps you to cleanse your heart by his word through Christ, by the power of the Spirit, as I hear his word and live by it, I start to overcome my old ways of living thus God is saving me from the ways of this world. That's what salvation is in this lifetime, to be saved from the ways of this world, meaning saving us by helping save us from being carried away by wrong doing in this world and by the wrong in our own hearts. I know me snow, and I wouldn't have thought twice about doing some things if I listened to my flesh, but God has taught me they are wrong to do, he had showed me my sin, much of which I was blind to. And now he guides me daily, and I have a really strong conscience, I can't do those things anymore and I know I'm blessed, but I also know that I can turn back at any time and I need God's help everyday, without him I'd be lost. And I also know that I have to endure to the end to be eternally saved and that I'm no better than anyone else, I have to deny myself daily and endure what is set before me and keep my faith, trusting in God no matter what happens to me to the end of my life for eternal salvation, and I've been through some things and I couldn't have got through them without the living God. I'm just a sinner being saved daily by the grace of God, meaning his strength and his love is helping me to overcome, as I turn from my old sinful ways, obey his word and live by his will in my daily life. I believe this is what God required of the Jews, but Jesus had to come and show them how to live as their leaders had gone wrong and were teaching the people wrong, a bit like some of the churches today. So now we have no excuse we have seen and heard the truth now we have to live by it ourselves. The way is Jesus, he lived it out, he spoke and lived the truth, and his life is the life to follow and we need that life within us, God wants to see the life of his son in us, and then lived out through us in love, and our old life has to go for that to happen as we can't serve two masters, we either live by our own will, or by the will of God. As Joshua said, choose you this day whom you serve. People can serve other false gods, loving themselves before God, and carrying on in their sinful ways and the ways of this world, or they can serve God and also be there for others, and Joshua chose to serve the Lord and those who truly follow Jesus will do the same. |
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