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Post by snow on Aug 15, 2023 12:20:24 GMT -5
You do realize the bible is chock full of contradictions. Here is a thought provoking link www.cs.umd.edu/users/mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf I do not see the Israelites killing women and children and their animals as self protection or self preservation. I do see them trying to justify killing when it clearly was murder. The killing of women was to prevent future generations of unbelievers arriving to do evil. The kids would have been preventing future revenge. There are probably more reasons... In other words WAR. They just justified the absolute genocide on something god told them to do. But they didn't kill the young girls that they liked so it's pretty clear it was justification of how brutal they were in war. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2023 13:48:32 GMT -5
The killing of women was to prevent future generations of unbelievers arriving to do evil. The kids would have been preventing future revenge. There are probably more reasons... In other words WAR. They just justified the absolute genocide on something god told them to do. But they didn't kill the young girls that they liked so it's pretty clear it was justification of how brutal they were in war. - - - moral lesson from the Bible - - - |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2023 13:49:04 GMT -5
In other words WAR. They just justified the absolute genocide on something god told them to do. But they didn't kill the young girls that they liked so it's pretty clear it was justification of how brutal they were in war. - - - moral lesson from the Bible - - - Why some people just LOVE the OT. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 15, 2023 13:52:59 GMT -5
I've seen all those supposed contradictions from the skeptic sites before, but for anyone with an ounce of understanding, they aren't contradictory at all.. Way too many for me to refute.
When God ordered the complete destruction of a society, there was a good reason. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord" (Isaiah 55:8). When God gets fed-up, he has a way of cleaning the slate, and he rarely leaves a remnant of the population that he's decided to wipe-out, i.e; Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, the Canaanite tribes, etc. Our physical existence isn't a priority because when all hope is gone, there's only rebellion and no repentance. Its not murder when its the result of righteous judgement, and that's God's domain.. All scripture is profitable, it only seems detrimental when we impose our own idiosyncrasies of what we think constitutes justice. From a spiritual perspective, the destruction of those Israeli enemies was a matter of self preservation. The times that King Saul, King David, and Joshua failed to completely wipe them out, they did come back to haunt or attack them.
You do realize that those nations were no different than the Israelites they were just enemies because they had land that the Israelites wanted? We know that they sacrificed children just like their neighbors at one point in their history. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the story when God changes how they sacrifice. In other words they slowly decided to evolve and understand that sacrificing children wasn't a good thing. Most likely because they were a very small collections of tribes and they needed every kid they had to increase their numbers. I agree that they could have been wiped out in wars because there were some very powerful nations around them. But the killing of women children and animals was not required. And, not all of the women got killed. The young girls that were pleasant to the men were allowed to live and become their wives. But if they didn't like them then they were left to their own means which was basically a death sentence for them. If it was about getting rid of the gene pool altogether then they would not have dared take the young girls as their wives and continue to produce those evil nations DNA. So it was all about justifying horrifying behavior. Just like the overseers are doing when they protect the workers, their kingdom, over the safety of the children in their 'tribe'.
The Canaanites were very different from the Israelites, who didn't sacrifice children to Moloch or worship Baal. God's purpose was to eliminate them for the evil they had done for 420 years, it was because of their disobedience to Melchizedek which started way back at the time of Abraham. God's anger was greatly kindled against them before the Israelites even arrived at the promised land. Their destruction was because they were spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt, their DNA wasn't evil, they were just pathetic souls that had to go. Imo, the situation isn't much different today, we aren't any better than the Canaanites, I can almost feel God's anger about to erupt.
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech." (Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV)
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2023 13:59:46 GMT -5
You do realize that those nations were no different than the Israelites they were just enemies because they had land that the Israelites wanted? We know that they sacrificed children just like their neighbors at one point in their history. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the story when God changes how they sacrifice. In other words they slowly decided to evolve and understand that sacrificing children wasn't a good thing. Most likely because they were a very small collections of tribes and they needed every kid they had to increase their numbers. I agree that they could have been wiped out in wars because there were some very powerful nations around them. But the killing of women children and animals was not required. And, not all of the women got killed. The young girls that were pleasant to the men were allowed to live and become their wives. But if they didn't like them then they were left to their own means which was basically a death sentence for them. If it was about getting rid of the gene pool altogether then they would not have dared take the young girls as their wives and continue to produce those evil nations DNA. So it was all about justifying horrifying behavior. Just like the overseers are doing when they protect the workers, their kingdom, over the safety of the children in their 'tribe'. The Canaanites were very different from the Israelites, who didn't sacrifice children to Moloch or worship Baal. God's purpose was to eliminate them for the evil they had done for 420 years, it was because of their disobedience to Melchizedek which started way back at the time of Abraham. God's anger was greatly kindled against them before the Israelites even arrived at the promised land. Their destruction was because they were spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt, their DNA wasn't evil, they were just pathetic souls that had to go. Imo, the situation isn't much different today, we aren't any better than the Canaanites, I can almost feel God's anger about to erupt.
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech." (Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV)
Moral lesson?? |
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Post by snow on Aug 15, 2023 15:26:28 GMT -5
You do realize that those nations were no different than the Israelites they were just enemies because they had land that the Israelites wanted? We know that they sacrificed children just like their neighbors at one point in their history. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the story when God changes how they sacrifice. In other words they slowly decided to evolve and understand that sacrificing children wasn't a good thing. Most likely because they were a very small collections of tribes and they needed every kid they had to increase their numbers. I agree that they could have been wiped out in wars because there were some very powerful nations around them. But the killing of women children and animals was not required. And, not all of the women got killed. The young girls that were pleasant to the men were allowed to live and become their wives. But if they didn't like them then they were left to their own means which was basically a death sentence for them. If it was about getting rid of the gene pool altogether then they would not have dared take the young girls as their wives and continue to produce those evil nations DNA. So it was all about justifying horrifying behavior. Just like the overseers are doing when they protect the workers, their kingdom, over the safety of the children in their 'tribe'. The Canaanites were very different from the Israelites, who didn't sacrifice children to Moloch or worship Baal. God's purpose was to eliminate them for the evil they had done for 420 years, it was because of their disobedience to Melchizedek which started way back at the time of Abraham. God's anger was greatly kindled against them before the Israelites even arrived at the promised land. Their destruction was because they were spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt, their DNA wasn't evil, they were just pathetic souls that had to go. Imo, the situation isn't much different today, we aren't any better than the Canaanites, I can almost feel God's anger about to erupt.
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech." (Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV)
The Israelites worshiped Baal after the death of Gideon. And they sacrificed infants at the alter of Baal just like those other countries they were at war with. Baal was the God of fertility and Asherah was his consort and she also was worshiped by the Israelites. They have found little statues of her among the refuse the Israelites left behind. Yahweh was who they worshipped going to war. When he became their one and only god to worship the priests had a hard time convincing the Israelites to worship just him because they were afraid that he couldn't do anything for fertility issues and growing of crops etc. He was their God of War and it wasn't his department. They worshipped the same gods as others with some changes of names in some instances before they made Yahweh their primary god. King Ahab's Phoenician wife tried to bring back the worship of Baal into her court and purge it of Yahweh worshipers. They fought that and as we see they won in the end. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 16:59:00 GMT -5
You do realize that those nations were no different than the Israelites they were just enemies because they had land that the Israelites wanted? We know that they sacrificed children just like their neighbors at one point in their history. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the story when God changes how they sacrifice. In other words they slowly decided to evolve and understand that sacrificing children wasn't a good thing. Most likely because they were a very small collections of tribes and they needed every kid they had to increase their numbers. I agree that they could have been wiped out in wars because there were some very powerful nations around them. But the killing of women children and animals was not required. And, not all of the women got killed. The young girls that were pleasant to the men were allowed to live and become their wives. But if they didn't like them then they were left to their own means which was basically a death sentence for them. If it was about getting rid of the gene pool altogether then they would not have dared take the young girls as their wives and continue to produce those evil nations DNA. So it was all about justifying horrifying behavior. Just like the overseers are doing when they protect the workers, their kingdom, over the safety of the children in their 'tribe'.
The Canaanites were very different from the Israelites, who didn't sacrifice children to Moloch or worship Baal. God's purpose was to eliminate them for the evil they had done for 420 years, it was because of their disobedience to Melchizedek which started way back at the time of Abraham. God's anger was greatly kindled against them before the Israelites even arrived at the promised land. Their destruction was because they were spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt, their DNA wasn't evil, they were just pathetic souls that had to go. Imo, the situation isn't much different today, we aren't any better than the Canaanites, I can almost feel God's anger about to erupt.
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech." (Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV)
Spot on, bro... Just because they strayed from God a few times, doesn't mean that other gods were their first gods all along or even major ones when they strayed...it was never the rule to sacrifice children for the hebrews/jews... |
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Post by Dan on Aug 15, 2023 23:38:17 GMT -5
The Canaanites were very different from the Israelites, who didn't sacrifice children to Moloch or worship Baal. God's purpose was to eliminate them for the evil they had done for 420 years, it was because of their disobedience to Melchizedek which started way back at the time of Abraham. God's anger was greatly kindled against them before the Israelites even arrived at the promised land. Their destruction was because they were spiritually corrupt and morally bankrupt, their DNA wasn't evil, they were just pathetic souls that had to go. Imo, the situation isn't much different today, we aren't any better than the Canaanites, I can almost feel God's anger about to erupt.
“Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name. And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech." (Leviticus 20:2-5 ESV)
Moral lesson??
The whole bible is a moral lesson  ... Don't burn your kids to death and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). The Israelites worshiped Baal after the death of Gideon. And they sacrificed infants at the alter of Baal just like those other countries they were at war with. Baal was the God of fertility and Asherah was his consort and she also was worshiped by the Israelites. They have found little statues of her among the refuse the Israelites left behind. Yahweh was who they worshipped going to war. When he became their one and only god to worship the priests had a hard time convincing the Israelites to worship just him because they were afraid that he couldn't do anything for fertility issues and growing of crops etc. He was their God of War and it wasn't his department. They worshipped the same gods as others with some changes of names in some instances before they made Yahweh their primary god. King Ahab's Phoenician wife tried to bring back the worship of Baal into her court and purge it of Yahweh worshipers. They fought that and as we see they won in the end.
And now you understand why God wanted the other nations that surrounded Israel destroyed. The bad influence rubbed off on them and caused great abominations. Ahaz did make "his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.” (2 Kings 16:3). Ahaz "burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Gehenna), and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him" (2 Chronicles 28:5).
God was always their primary God, but they strayed and God punished them big time, 120,000 were killed along with King Ahaz.. A good king replaced him (Hezekiah).
Imagine how many children the Canaanites burned alive over those 420 years.. And their women who voluntarily stood by and watched were not innocent. Consider that your compassion might be misplaced?
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 16, 2023 0:13:45 GMT -5
The whole bible is a moral lesson ... Don't burn your kids to death and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). The Israelites worshiped Baal after the death of Gideon. And they sacrificed infants at the alter of Baal just like those other countries they were at war with. Baal was the God of fertility and Asherah was his consort and she also was worshiped by the Israelites. They have found little statues of her among the refuse the Israelites left behind. Yahweh was who they worshipped going to war. When he became their one and only god to worship the priests had a hard time convincing the Israelites to worship just him because they were afraid that he couldn't do anything for fertility issues and growing of crops etc. He was their God of War and it wasn't his department. They worshipped the same gods as others with some changes of names in some instances before they made Yahweh their primary god. King Ahab's Phoenician wife tried to bring back the worship of Baal into her court and purge it of Yahweh worshipers. They fought that and as we see they won in the end. And now you understand why God wanted the other nations that surrounded Israel destroyed. The bad influence rubbed off on them and caused great abominations. Ahaz did make "his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.” (2 Kings 16:3). Ahaz "burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Gehenna), and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him" (2 Chronicles 28:5).
God was always their primary God, but they strayed and God punished them big time, 120,000 were killed along with King Ahaz.. A good king replaced him (Hezekiah).
Imagine how many children the Canaanites burned alive over those 420 years.. And their women who voluntarily stood by and watched were not innocent. Consider that your compassion might be misplaced?
But you're cherry picking.  |
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Post by Dan on Aug 16, 2023 0:24:11 GMT -5
The whole bible is a moral lesson ... Don't burn your kids to death and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). And now you understand why God wanted the other nations that surrounded Israel destroyed. The bad influence rubbed off on them and caused great abominations. Ahaz did make "his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.” (2 Kings 16:3). Ahaz "burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Gehenna), and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him" (2 Chronicles 28:5).
God was always their primary God, but they strayed and God punished them big time, 120,000 were killed along with King Ahaz.. A good king replaced him (Hezekiah).
Imagine how many children the Canaanites burned alive over those 420 years.. And their women who voluntarily stood by and watched were not innocent. Consider that your compassion might be misplaced?
But you're cherry picking.
How so? A child can understand what ticks God off! Killing kids, or even molesting them, along with worshiping false gods, is not cherry picking.. Its straight out of the bible.
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Post by snow on Aug 16, 2023 15:13:08 GMT -5
Dan if you really believe that God told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites for being a bad influence, then you are ignoring the countless strong nations that also surrounded the very small tribe of Hebrews. They would have to go to war against many large nations around them. The Hebrews did sacrifice babies to Baal. That is known. The bible talks about how they did kill all the Canaanites but that isn't even true historically. They may have won one skirmish against them at some point but they never actually were capable of doing what the bible says. And even in that telling they didn't kill them all but kept the young girls. It's a story. cosmosmagazine.com/history/archaeology/dna-vs-the-bible-israelites-did-not-wipe-out-the-canaanites/#:~:text=Genome%20analysis%20published%20in%20the,population%20of%20modern%2Dday%20Lebanon.
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Post by Dan on Aug 16, 2023 17:57:43 GMT -5
The whole bible is a moral lesson ... Don't burn your kids to death and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). And now you understand why God wanted the other nations that surrounded Israel destroyed. The bad influence rubbed off on them and caused great abominations. Ahaz did make "his son to pass through the fire, according to the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel.” (2 Kings 16:3). Ahaz "burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom (Gehenna), and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel. Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him" (2 Chronicles 28:5).
God was always their primary God, but they strayed and God punished them big time, 120,000 were killed along with King Ahaz.. A good king replaced him (Hezekiah).
Imagine how many children the Canaanites burned alive over those 420 years.. And their women who voluntarily stood by and watched were not innocent. Consider that your compassion might be misplaced?
But you're cherry picking.
I quoted a commandment and a couple bible verses which speak for themselves. If there are verses where God encouraged sacrificing children or worshiping false gods, feel free to point them out.
Most Christians pick verses to back-up and substantiate a point.
Since you can't elaborate on what's cherry picked, I suspect this version might be your preference? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2023 18:50:25 GMT -5
But you're cherry picking. I quoted a commandment and a couple bible verses which speak for themselves. If there are verses where God encouraged sacrificing children or worshiping false gods, feel free to point them out.
Most Christians pick verses to back-up and substantiate a point.
Since you can't elaborate on what's cherry picked, I suspect this version might be your preference?  |
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 18, 2023 0:36:51 GMT -5
But you're cherry picking. How so? You're leaving out the parts of the Bible that say the opposite. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 18, 2023 15:12:17 GMT -5
You're leaving out the parts of the Bible that say the opposite.
As stated, I know of no verses that say or even suggest the opposite? 'If there are verses where God encouraged sacrificing children or worshiping false gods, feel free to point them out.'
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Post by BobWilliston on Aug 18, 2023 23:19:18 GMT -5
You're leaving out the parts of the Bible that say the opposite. As stated, I know of no verses that say or even suggest the opposite? 'If there are verses where God encouraged sacrificing children or worshiping false gods, feel free to point them out.'
You're proving my point. You're not mentioning the kind of events where God obviously either changed his mind with a different response. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 19, 2023 0:51:57 GMT -5
As stated, I know of no verses that say or even suggest the opposite? 'If there are verses where God encouraged sacrificing children or worshiping false gods, feel free to point them out.'
You're proving my point. You're not mentioning the kind of events where God obviously either changed his mind with a different response.
God does not change his mind per se, but he may alter a decision based on our response. In other words, God may relent if we repent. But God has never altered a commandment or decided that sacrificing children was not an abomination.
Moses pleaded with God not to destroy his people, "And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people" (Exodus 32:14 esv).
"David said, “Behold, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly. But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand be against me and against my father's house.”
"And when the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who was working destruction among the people, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” (2 Samuel 24)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 19, 2023 10:09:43 GMT -5
You're proving my point. You're not mentioning the kind of events where God obviously either changed his mind with a different response.
God does not change his mind per se, but he may alter a decision based on our response. In other words, God may relent if we repent. But God has never altered a commandment or decided that sacrificing children was not an abomination.
Moses pleaded with God not to destroy his people, "And the Lord relented from the disaster that he had spoken of bringing on his people" (Exodus 32:14 esv).
"David said, “Behold, I have sinned, and I have done wickedly. But these sheep, what have they done? Please let your hand be against me and against my father's house.”
"And when the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the Lord relented from the calamity and said to the angel who was working destruction among the people, “It is enough; now stay your hand.” (2 Samuel 24)
Hezekiah dead man, given 15 more years... |
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Post by fixit on Aug 19, 2023 22:12:30 GMT -5
Dan if you really believe that God told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites for being a bad influence, then you are ignoring the countless strong nations that also surrounded the very small tribe of Hebrews. They would have to go to war against many large nations around them. The Hebrews did sacrifice babies to Baal. That is known. The bible talks about how they did kill all the Canaanites but that isn't even true historically. They may have won one skirmish against them at some point but they never actually were capable of doing what the bible says. And even in that telling they didn't kill them all but kept the young girls. It's a story. cosmosmagazine.com/history/archaeology/dna-vs-the-bible-israelites-did-not-wipe-out-the-canaanites/#:~:text=Genome%20analysis%20published%20in%20the,population%20of%20modern%2Dday%20Lebanon. And who is my neighbor? Christians confess the Bible as the Good Book, the perfect guide for becoming loving and holy, just like Jesus. And yet, that same book describes God commanding the Israelites to kill every Canaanite living in the Promised Land. How are we to understand the Bible as the Good Book when it depicts God commanding actions like genocide? How are we to reconcile this narrative with the God revealed in Jesus Christ, the God who taught us to love our enemies?In this bold new book, Randal Rauser defends a novel approach to the Canaanite genocide, one that remains faithful to our deepest moral intuitions even as it is guided by the conviction that Jesus calls us to love all our neighbors. And the Canaanite is our neighbor. |
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Post by Dan on Aug 20, 2023 11:48:17 GMT -5
www.amazon.com/Jesus-Loves-Canaanites-Biblical-Intuition/dp/1775046249And who is my neighbor? Christians confess the Bible as the Good Book, the perfect guide for becoming loving and holy, just like Jesus. And yet, that same book describes God commanding the Israelites to kill every Canaanite living in the Promised Land. How are we to understand the Bible as the Good Book when it depicts God commanding actions like genocide? How are we to reconcile this narrative with the God revealed in Jesus Christ, the God who taught us to love our enemies?In this bold new book, Randal Rauser defends a novel approach to the Canaanite genocide, one that remains faithful to our deepest moral intuitions even as it is guided by the conviction that Jesus calls us to love all our neighbors. And the Canaanite is our neighbor.
God is good, Jesus is good, whereby the bible is good. We overcome evil with good. God killing the Canaanites was good destroying evil. Loving your enemies isn't blessing them, its praying for them, and God straightening out your enemies isn't exactly bestowing virtuous consequences upon them (Romans 12:20). But if God can turn your enemies around, it is ultimately a good thing.
Being loving and holy isn't a matter of accepting, tolerating, and enduing evil. If God did that, he would be neither loving or holy. We know His patience and we know its not His desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), but we also know His patience will end, His wrath will come, and good will conquer all evil.
Sometimes its difficult to see or understand the good when your surrounded with evil. Was the crucifixion of Jesus good or evil? Did Satan or Christ win that battle? Sin was defeated, our accuser was silenced, the spiritual victory was God's. That's how I reconcile it.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2023 13:10:45 GMT -5
 www.amazon.com/Jesus-Loves-Canaanites-Biblical-Intuition/dp/1775046249And who is my neighbor? Christians confess the Bible as the Good Book, the perfect guide for becoming loving and holy, just like Jesus. And yet, that same book describes God commanding the Israelites to kill every Canaanite living in the Promised Land. How are we to understand the Bible as the Good Book when it depicts God commanding actions like genocide? How are we to reconcile this narrative with the God revealed in Jesus Christ, the God who taught us to love our enemies?In this bold new book, Randal Rauser defends a novel approach to the Canaanite genocide, one that remains faithful to our deepest moral intuitions even as it is guided by the conviction that Jesus calls us to love all our neighbors. And the Canaanite is our neighbor. God is good, Jesus is good, whereby the bible is good. We overcome evil with good. God killing the Canaanites was good destroying evil. Loving your enemies isn't blessing them, its praying for them, and God straightening out your enemies isn't exactly bestowing virtuous consequences upon them (Romans 12:20). But if God can turn your enemies around, it is ultimately a good thing. Being loving and holy isn't a matter of accepting, tolerating, and enduing evil. If God did that, he would be neither loving or holy. We know His patience and we know its not His desire that any should perish (2 Peter 3:9), but we also know His patience will end, His wrath will come, and good will conquer all evil. Sometimes its difficult to see or understand the good when your surrounded with evil. Was the crucifixion of Jesus good or evil? Did Satan or Christ win that battle? Sin was defeated, our accuser was silenced, the spiritual victory was God's. That's how I reconcile it.
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Post by snow on Aug 20, 2023 15:27:02 GMT -5
Dan if you really believe that God told the Israelites to kill the Canaanites for being a bad influence, then you are ignoring the countless strong nations that also surrounded the very small tribe of Hebrews. They would have to go to war against many large nations around them. The Hebrews did sacrifice babies to Baal. That is known. The bible talks about how they did kill all the Canaanites but that isn't even true historically. They may have won one skirmish against them at some point but they never actually were capable of doing what the bible says. And even in that telling they didn't kill them all but kept the young girls. It's a story. cosmosmagazine.com/history/archaeology/dna-vs-the-bible-israelites-did-not-wipe-out-the-canaanites/#:~:text=Genome%20analysis%20published%20in%20the,population%20of%20modern%2Dday%20Lebanon. And who is my neighbor? Christians confess the Bible as the Good Book, the perfect guide for becoming loving and holy, just like Jesus. And yet, that same book describes God commanding the Israelites to kill every Canaanite living in the Promised Land. How are we to understand the Bible as the Good Book when it depicts God commanding actions like genocide? How are we to reconcile this narrative with the God revealed in Jesus Christ, the God who taught us to love our enemies?In this bold new book, Randal Rauser defends a novel approach to the Canaanite genocide, one that remains faithful to our deepest moral intuitions even as it is guided by the conviction that Jesus calls us to love all our neighbors. And the Canaanite is our neighbor. That looks like an interesting read. I think I just might have to do that. A new poll done with pastors in the US say that their members think that Jesus is too liberal, too Woke. Apparently the teachings of love your neighbor, feed the hungry and other things like that 'just don't work today and are too liberal'. I would have to say that if you don't like the things Jesus says that you really can't call yourself a Christian. Literally. newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak |
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Post by Dan on Aug 20, 2023 22:07:43 GMT -5
www.amazon.com/Jesus-Loves-Canaanites-Biblical-Intuition/dp/1775046249And who is my neighbor? Christians confess the Bible as the Good Book, the perfect guide for becoming loving and holy, just like Jesus. And yet, that same book describes God commanding the Israelites to kill every Canaanite living in the Promised Land. How are we to understand the Bible as the Good Book when it depicts God commanding actions like genocide? How are we to reconcile this narrative with the God revealed in Jesus Christ, the God who taught us to love our enemies?In this bold new book, Randal Rauser defends a novel approach to the Canaanite genocide, one that remains faithful to our deepest moral intuitions even as it is guided by the conviction that Jesus calls us to love all our neighbors. And the Canaanite is our neighbor. That looks like an interesting read. I think I just might have to do that. A new poll done with pastors in the US say that their members think that Jesus is too liberal, too Woke. Apparently the teachings of love your neighbor, feed the hungry and other things like that 'just don't work today and are too liberal'. I would have to say that if you don't like the things Jesus says that you really can't call yourself a Christian. Literally. newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
Jesus was not all lovey-dovey, he said some harsh things as well, "‘My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves"... "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning" ... "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" etc. Sometimes loving your neighbor means correcting them, tough love. Feeding the hungry means to help the helpless, not throw money and food at someone who's too lazy to work or that would blow your gift on booze & drugs, "If any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 21, 2023 11:34:42 GMT -5
That looks like an interesting read. I think I just might have to do that. A new poll done with pastors in the US say that their members think that Jesus is too liberal, too Woke. Apparently the teachings of love your neighbor, feed the hungry and other things like that 'just don't work today and are too liberal'. I would have to say that if you don't like the things Jesus says that you really can't call yourself a Christian. Literally. newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
Jesus was not all lovey-dovey, he said some harsh things as well, "‘My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves"... "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning" ... "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" etc. Sometimes loving your neighbor means correcting them, tough love. Feeding the hungry means to help the helpless, not throw money and food at someone who's too lazy to work or that would blow your gift on booze & drugs, "If any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
 well said bro, |
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Post by snow on Aug 21, 2023 12:50:02 GMT -5
That looks like an interesting read. I think I just might have to do that. A new poll done with pastors in the US say that their members think that Jesus is too liberal, too Woke. Apparently the teachings of love your neighbor, feed the hungry and other things like that 'just don't work today and are too liberal'. I would have to say that if you don't like the things Jesus says that you really can't call yourself a Christian. Literally. newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak Jesus was not all lovey-dovey, he said some harsh things as well, "‘My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves"... "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning" ... "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" etc. Sometimes loving your neighbor means correcting them, tough love. Feeding the hungry means to help the helpless, not throw money and food at someone who's too lazy to work or that would blow your gift on booze & drugs, "If any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
I'm not sure you get to be the judge of who is worthy or not. I'm sure there were lazy people in the crowd where he fed the masses. He didn't discriminate. I do agree he wasn't all lovey dovey. I'm not that big a fan of him, but he was a lot more compassionate than a lot in his day. His exposure to other cultures in Egypt that was a melting pot of cultures probably gave him more insight into other philosophies. I think today's Christians that Christ's preaching's are 'too weak' and 'just don't work anymore' according to a recent poll of preachers in the US. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 21, 2023 15:53:28 GMT -5
That looks like an interesting read. I think I just might have to do that. A new poll done with pastors in the US say that their members think that Jesus is too liberal, too Woke. Apparently the teachings of love your neighbor, feed the hungry and other things like that 'just don't work today and are too liberal'. I would have to say that if you don't like the things Jesus says that you really can't call yourself a Christian. Literally. newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
Jesus was not all lovey-dovey, he said some harsh things as well, "‘My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves"... "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning" ... "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" etc. Sometimes loving your neighbor means correcting them, tough love. Feeding the hungry means to help the helpless, not throw money and food at someone who's too lazy to work or that would blow your gift on booze & drugs, "If any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
Yes I agree with a lot of what you said, but Jesus was tough on those who were supposed to know God, not those who didn't know. All the verses you quoted were to those who professed to know God. As for money and food, I believe we are to help anyone we see in need if they are on drugs or drink then get then food and do more to help if we can. And also we are to be straight with people too. Strangely enough this happened with me today, I'm not saying this to big myself up, I'm saying it because it's relevant to what you have said, because I wouldn't look at others unless God opened my eyes. Anyway I saw a homeless man on the street, but I had no change, so I got change and I went to give him a little bit of money not much though, when I went back to him there was a man speaking to him, the man told me he believed in God and was telling the man he would pray for him. And me being me said, what about helping him too, to which the man replied, I don't give money or anything but I do tell them that I pray for them with a smile like he's really good. I said to him, but you should also help when you see people in need even help feed them not only pray for them, that's what we are to do in God, help others when we see the need too, if we can. He said he did so I left it at that. Then I asked the man if he needed food, he said no he was ok, but I went and got him some bits anyway. When I brought them to him, I realised there was another man who I thought had been him on the other side of the road when I was going to get the change, he had the same sign, I thought he had just crossed over when I'd been in a shop, but when I went back over the road, the man was still there, then I got the inkling that he might not be telling me the truth and they both might be just after money. He started saying that he had children and no food and needed money but wasn't really interested in the food. But he took the food and then I asked him if he believed in God (he looked like a Muslim) he said he did, I told him that he must always be honest and never con others, if he is telling the truth then I hope and pray that he gets help, but if he's lying then God will give him a harder time for doing dishonest things. He listened and nodded, but no matter what I'll still get him food if I see him, we aren't here to judge, I believe we are to just tell the truth, help when we see the need, and then leave the judgement to God. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 21, 2023 16:06:25 GMT -5
That looks like an interesting read. I think I just might have to do that. A new poll done with pastors in the US say that their members think that Jesus is too liberal, too Woke. Apparently the teachings of love your neighbor, feed the hungry and other things like that 'just don't work today and are too liberal'. I would have to say that if you don't like the things Jesus says that you really can't call yourself a Christian. Literally. newrepublic.com/post/174950/christianity-today-editor-evangelicals-call-jesus-liberal-weak
Jesus was not all lovey-dovey, he said some harsh things as well, "‘My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves"... "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning" ... "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" etc. Sometimes loving your neighbor means correcting them, tough love. Feeding the hungry means to help the helpless, not throw money and food at someone who's too lazy to work or that would blow your gift on booze & drugs, "If any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
Also you said this regarding what Jesus said "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" I believe that Jesus means that some will listen to him and some won't, the word of God divides. Not that they will all be fighting one another, but rather maybe those that listen and believe will tell the others the truth which they won't like or won't want to know. This has happened in my own family, but I love them and will always be there for them, but I'll always tell them the truth in God too. Jesus's love can sometimes be tough love, but it should always be done with a good heart and with the hope that it will help others, not done in malice with a hard holier than thou heart to purposely hurt them. We are to stay humble, speak the truth regardless of who they are, and try and live right before God in our daily lives and leave the judgement to God. |
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Post by maryhig on Aug 21, 2023 16:09:16 GMT -5
Jesus was not all lovey-dovey, he said some harsh things as well, "‘My house shall be called a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves"... "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning" ... "Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division" etc. Sometimes loving your neighbor means correcting them, tough love. Feeding the hungry means to help the helpless, not throw money and food at someone who's too lazy to work or that would blow your gift on booze & drugs, "If any would not work, neither should he eat" (2 Thessalonians 3:10).
I'm not sure you get to be the judge of who is worthy or not. I'm sure there were lazy people in the crowd where he fed the masses. He didn't discriminate. I do agree he wasn't all lovey dovey. I'm not that big a fan of him, but he was a lot more compassionate than a lot in his day. His exposure to other cultures in Egypt that was a melting pot of cultures probably gave him more insight into other philosophies. I think today's Christians that Christ's preaching's are 'too weak' and 'just don't work anymore' according to a recent poll of preachers in the US. Well if today's Christians think that, then they are not true Christians, or as I rather say followers of Christ. Because Jesus taught and showed us the true way to live, and if it's not good enough for them then tough luck. His way is the way and no one should try and change it. |
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... Don't burn your kids to death and "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" (Exodus 20:3). 
