|
|
Post by maryhig on Aug 7, 2023 21:44:14 GMT -5
No, I didn't mean to imply that, my comment wasn't ad hominem, but just a general opinion on how our conscience differentiates between right & wrong. A Christian would likely have some biblical boundaries that a nonbeliever wouldn't observe. Without a definitive source of laws, a non-Christian would have no spiritual guide and be more reliant on their own sense of morals. But I believe everyone inherently knows the difference between good & evil. So of course, anyone with an ounce of commonsense would denounce evil and not respect or condone those who did bad things.
Hearing about how the HS appears to work I would say that those who believe in God also just are guided by their individual morals. Look at the number of workers and overseers that people are asking to step down and they aren't because they are claiming the holy spirit is telling them not to. I don't think belief in god makes any difference in how believers work. There is such a vast array of ways they justify doing what they do and claim the hs guided them. Conscience is based on the character of the person and their individual sense of right and wrong. Why are they being asked to step down? Thanks The reason I ask this is because they must have done something to be asked to step down, and they can say the Holy Spirit told them to do whatever it doesn't matter what they say it's what they do, you'll tell by their actions if they are being led by the Spirit. People twist things to suit themselves but they can't fool God, and those truly led by the Spirit will be living right before God and they will be caring for those around them. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 7, 2023 23:36:01 GMT -5
Hearing about how the HS appears to work I would say that those who believe in God also just are guided by their individual morals. Look at the number of workers and overseers that people are asking to step down and they aren't because they are claiming the holy spirit is telling them not to. I don't think belief in god makes any difference in how believers work. There is such a vast array of ways they justify doing what they do and claim the hs guided them. Conscience is based on the character of the person and their individual sense of right and wrong.
The Holy Spirit doesn't tell or force anyone to do anything, it simply enhances our own spirit (conscience) by revealing the truth.
|
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 8, 2023 13:14:23 GMT -5
No I was never physically attacked. I do remember what it was like to be bullied because I looked different though and I do remember what it felt like to be made fun of and rejected. I remember guys in school with short hair while I had long skirts. And, they weren't professing. I don't know if they suffered what you did. Maybe if they were also a 'nerd'. They did tend to be bullied terribly unfortunately. I am sorry that happened to you wally.  I got bullied just because my mum and dad wasn't well off, I got it from I was around 4 till I was 11. They picked at everything and excluded me from playing with them too and bullied me daily, I constantly wanted to go home. It was mainly one girl who turned the rest against me, she was well off with all the best clothes and picked at me because of things like I got my dress from a cheaper shop than some of them had. I wasn't the only one she was bad to, but she made a beeline for me because I was so soft and didn't tell anyone. It really affected me for a long time, right into adulthood, it wasn't until I met my now husband that I was able to put it and other things behind me, and that was after a few years of being with him. And God has helped me also, God has also helped me to forgive and forget. But one good thing has come out of it, it's also made me a stronger person, and I have empathy for others going through things in their life too. I am sorry that happened to you. It's hard to deal with when we are so young. We don't understand why we aren't good enough at first. But the bully soon lets you know why It definitely effects our self image and it's something that we have to work on as an adult. When I quit professing and started to earn my own money babysitting, I would buy some clothes that I liked and I would leave them at my worldly friends house and change into them when I went to school and then again when I went home. It's not a good way to live. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 8, 2023 13:16:13 GMT -5
Hearing about how the HS appears to work I would say that those who believe in God also just are guided by their individual morals. Look at the number of workers and overseers that people are asking to step down and they aren't because they are claiming the holy spirit is telling them not to. I don't think belief in god makes any difference in how believers work. There is such a vast array of ways they justify doing what they do and claim the hs guided them. Conscience is based on the character of the person and their individual sense of right and wrong. Why are they being asked to step down? Thanks The reason I ask this is because they must have done something to be asked to step down, and they can say the Holy Spirit told them to do whatever it doesn't matter what they say it's what they do, you'll tell by their actions if they are being led by the Spirit. People twist things to suit themselves but they can't fool God, and those truly led by the Spirit will be living right before God and they will be caring for those around them. Apparently there is a letter from the friends that had 800 signatures asking that worker to step down and it was ignored. I think I posted a couple of pages of the town hall meeting where they said that if they didn't want to come to their meetings they could leave the meetings. I can't remember which thread I posted that on. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 8, 2023 13:17:34 GMT -5
Hearing about how the HS appears to work I would say that those who believe in God also just are guided by their individual morals. Look at the number of workers and overseers that people are asking to step down and they aren't because they are claiming the holy spirit is telling them not to. I don't think belief in god makes any difference in how believers work. There is such a vast array of ways they justify doing what they do and claim the hs guided them. Conscience is based on the character of the person and their individual sense of right and wrong. The Holy Spirit doesn't tell or force anyone to do anything, it simply enhances our own spirit (conscience) by revealing the truth.
That's your belief. I understand that. But for me what we do is our responsibility and what we do is guided by only us. |
|
|
|
Post by maryhig on Aug 9, 2023 1:52:57 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit doesn't tell or force anyone to do anything, it simply enhances our own spirit (conscience) by revealing the truth.
That's your belief. I understand that. But for me what we do is our responsibility and what we do is guided by only us. What we do is our responsibility your right, but we also have a nature that wants to do wrong things at times, and then a conscience which tells us not to do it and to do the right thing. Then in comes that little wrong voice telling us we'll be ok, or telling us it's ok to do it, maybe because others do it etc. tempting us. And it's then up to us what we do, either listen to the right or listen to the wrong, and we are responsible for whichever one we choose to do. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 9, 2023 14:40:24 GMT -5
That's your belief. I understand that. But for me what we do is our responsibility and what we do is guided by only us. What we do is our responsibility your right, but we also have a nature that wants to do wrong things at times, and then a conscience which tells us not to do it and to do the right thing. Then in comes that little wrong voice telling us we'll be ok, or telling us it's ok to do it, maybe because others do it etc. tempting us. And it's then up to us what we do, either listen to the right or listen to the wrong, and we are responsible for whichever one we choose to do. Yes it's always our choice what we choose right or wrong. I think what we've not addressed is that one person's wrong might not be wrong to someone else. For example my mother felt that not wearing a dress was wrong. Most people that aren't raised as professing 2x2's and even some 2x2's do not consider it to be wrong. They wear pants and see it as right. So it's complex. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 13, 2023 12:51:26 GMT -5
What we do is our responsibility your right, but we also have a nature that wants to do wrong things at times, and then a conscience which tells us not to do it and to do the right thing. Then in comes that little wrong voice telling us we'll be ok, or telling us it's ok to do it, maybe because others do it etc. tempting us. And it's then up to us what we do, either listen to the right or listen to the wrong, and we are responsible for whichever one we choose to do. Yes it's always our choice what we choose right or wrong. I think what we've not addressed is that one person's wrong might not be wrong to someone else. For example my mother felt that not wearing a dress was wrong. Most people that aren't raised as professing 2x2's and even some 2x2's do not consider it to be wrong. They wear pants and see it as right. So it's complex.
Your both describing free choice. There are definitely differences in perceptions of what's right and what's wrong, but that's why we have the inspired word, it clears everything up for believers, so there's no complexity to it.
|
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 13, 2023 14:48:46 GMT -5
Yes it's always our choice what we choose right or wrong. I think what we've not addressed is that one person's wrong might not be wrong to someone else. For example my mother felt that not wearing a dress was wrong. Most people that aren't raised as professing 2x2's and even some 2x2's do not consider it to be wrong. They wear pants and see it as right. So it's complex. Your both describing free choice. There are definitely differences in perceptions of what's right and what's wrong, but that's why we have the inspired word, it clears everything up for believers, so there's no complexity to it.
But it really doesn't. We see plenty of instances where believers argue over interpretation of right and wrong. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2023 17:37:40 GMT -5
Your both describing free choice. There are definitely differences in perceptions of what's right and what's wrong, but that's why we have the inspired word, it clears everything up for believers, so there's no complexity to it.
But it really doesn't. We see plenty of instances where believers argue over interpretation of right and wrong. You'll find that mainly in where there is no word used then that is in English now...descriptions of right and wrong are there... |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 13, 2023 18:17:14 GMT -5
But it really doesn't. We see plenty of instances where believers argue over interpretation of right and wrong. You'll find that mainly in where there is no word used then that is in English now...descriptions of right and wrong are there... I think it's more where we are in life that allows us to better right and wrong. When I was young there were things I was not aware of that I am now aware of and now know are right and what I once thought was actually wrong. I've learned to be more compassionate, tolerant, patient and a little less judgmental. So how I see it is we interpret right and wrong differently as we grow in understanding. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 14, 2023 0:29:03 GMT -5
You'll find that mainly in where there is no word used then that is in English now...descriptions of right and wrong are there... I think it's more where we are in life that allows us to better right and wrong. When I was young there were things I was not aware of that I am now aware of and now know are right and what I once thought was actually wrong. I've learned to be more compassionate, tolerant, patient and a little less judgmental. So how I see it is we interpret right and wrong differently as we grow in understanding.
To me, right is right and wrong is wrong, its not a matter of private interpretation and there's no middle ground. The world is Babylon, complete confusion, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7). But Jesus cut through all the garbage and clarified right from wrong, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). That's what the H.S. brings to remembrance (John 14:26).
Of course, there's always some varying interpretation of prophecy and such, but the fundamentals of good & evil were spelled out and demonstrated by Christ.
|
|
|
|
Post by guest8 on Aug 14, 2023 0:54:58 GMT -5
Sometimes we need the fog
to remind ourselves that all of life
is not black and white.
|
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Aug 14, 2023 2:16:43 GMT -5
I think it's more where we are in life that allows us to better right and wrong. When I was young there were things I was not aware of that I am now aware of and now know are right and what I once thought was actually wrong. I've learned to be more compassionate, tolerant, patient and a little less judgmental. So how I see it is we interpret right and wrong differently as we grow in understanding. To me, right is right and wrong is wrong, its not a matter of private interpretation and there's no middle ground. The world is Babylon, complete confusion, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7). But Jesus cut through all the garbage and clarified right from wrong, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). That's what the H.S. brings to remembrance (John 14:26). Of course, there's always some varying interpretation of prophecy and such, but the fundamentals of good & evil were spelled out and demonstrated by Christ. This is a great pronouncement, but morality is not that cut and dried. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 14, 2023 3:47:14 GMT -5
This is a great pronouncement, but morality is not that cut and dried.
Yeah, I'm big on pronouncements lately... Its cut & dry for God, but nothing any of us can master, we are all corrupt. The differences between good and evil are discernible, we really don't even need to apply ourselves to grasp most of it.. But admittedly, there are some gray area's that challenge my understanding. Thankfully, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2023 9:02:33 GMT -5
Sometimes we need the fog
to remind ourselves that all of life
is not black and white. uh huh, confusion always helps one make good decisions.... |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 14, 2023 13:39:39 GMT -5
I think it's more where we are in life that allows us to better right and wrong. When I was young there were things I was not aware of that I am now aware of and now know are right and what I once thought was actually wrong. I've learned to be more compassionate, tolerant, patient and a little less judgmental. So how I see it is we interpret right and wrong differently as we grow in understanding. To me, right is right and wrong is wrong, its not a matter of private interpretation and there's no middle ground. The world is Babylon, complete confusion, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Timothy 3:7). But Jesus cut through all the garbage and clarified right from wrong, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free" (John 8:32). That's what the H.S. brings to remembrance (John 14:26). Of course, there's always some varying interpretation of prophecy and such, but the fundamentals of good & evil were spelled out and demonstrated by Christ. Definitely some things are definitively wrong. Murdering someone is one of them. But killing someone else isn't black and white. It could be you killed to defend yourself for example. Some will say that they had that right, and others will still say it's absolutely wrong to ever kill anyone even in self defense. So that is an example of where right and wrong is not black and white. |
|
|
|
Post by guest8 on Aug 14, 2023 14:13:14 GMT -5
Sometimes we need the fog
to remind ourselves that all of life
is not black and white. uh huh, confusion always helps one make good decisions.... And .... by that comment, there are those who lack 'depth of understanding'. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 14, 2023 15:45:41 GMT -5
Definitely some things are definitively wrong. Murdering someone is one of them. But killing someone else isn't black and white. It could be you killed to defend yourself for example. Some will say that they had that right, and others will still say it's absolutely wrong to ever kill anyone even in self defense. So that is an example of where right and wrong is not black and white.
Actually, the bible is very clear on that. Deuteronomy 19:11 defines premeditated murder; "But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die... Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel."
Killing for self-defense is permitted, God had Israel kill thousands for self-protection and self-preservation. Its also a lethal penalty for breaking some laws. That's what I meant by saying that the bible cuts through all the confusion and clarifies what's right and what's wrong. Some will say this or that, opinions are a dime a dozen, but the bible is the ultimate fact check and it isn't wishy-washy on most subjects.
|
|
|
|
Post by chuck on Aug 14, 2023 16:39:52 GMT -5
Definitely some things are definitively wrong. Murdering someone is one of them. But killing someone else isn't black and white. It could be you killed to defend yourself for example. Some will say that they had that right, and others will still say it's absolutely wrong to ever kill anyone even in self defense. So that is an example of where right and wrong is not black and white.
Actually, the bible is very clear on that. Deuteronomy 19:11 defines premeditated murder; "But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die... Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel."
Killing for self-defense is permitted, God had Israel kill thousands for self-protection and self-preservation. Its also a lethal penalty for breaking some laws. That's what I meant by saying that the bible cuts through all the confusion and clarifies what's right and what's wrong. Some will say this or that, opinions are a dime a dozen, but the bible is the ultimate fact check and it isn't wishy-washy on most subjects.
A few chapters later....black and white! Exodus 22:2-3 [2]If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him. [3]If the sun be risen upon him, there shall be blood shed for him; for he should make full restitution; if he have nothing, then he shall be sold for his theft. This one's a beauty....... Deuteronomy 21:10-14 [10]When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, [11]And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; [12]Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; [13]And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. [14]And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her. Or how about this one.... Exodus 21:5-6 [5]And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free: [6]Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever. |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 14, 2023 16:49:59 GMT -5
Definitely some things are definitively wrong. Murdering someone is one of them. But killing someone else isn't black and white. It could be you killed to defend yourself for example. Some will say that they had that right, and others will still say it's absolutely wrong to ever kill anyone even in self defense. So that is an example of where right and wrong is not black and white. Actually, the bible is very clear on that. Deuteronomy 19:11 defines premeditated murder; "But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die... Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel."
Killing for self-defense is permitted, God had Israel kill thousands for self-protection and self-preservation. Its also a lethal penalty for breaking some laws. That's what I meant by saying that the bible cuts through all the confusion and clarifies what's right and what's wrong. Some will say this or that, opinions are a dime a dozen, but the bible is the ultimate fact check and it isn't wishy-washy on most subjects.
You do realize the bible is chock full of contradictions. Here is a thought provoking link www.cs.umd.edu/users/mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf I do not see the Israelites killing women and children and their animals as self protection or self preservation. I do see them trying to justify killing when it clearly was murder. |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 14, 2023 17:50:42 GMT -5
You do realize the bible is chock full of contradictions. Here is a thought provoking link www.cs.umd.edu/users/mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf I do not see the Israelites killing women and children and their animals as self protection or self preservation. I do see them trying to justify killing when it clearly was murder.
I've seen all those supposed contradictions from the skeptic sites before, but for anyone with an ounce of understanding, they aren't contradictory at all.. Way too many for me to refute.
When God ordered the complete destruction of a society, there was a good reason. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord" (Isaiah 55:8). When God gets fed-up, he has a way of cleaning the slate, and he rarely leaves a remnant of the population that he's decided to wipe-out, i.e; Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, the Canaanite tribes, etc. Our physical existence isn't a priority because when all hope is gone, there's only rebellion and no repentance. Its not murder when its the result of righteous judgement, and that's God's domain.. All scripture is profitable, it only seems detrimental when we impose our own idiosyncrasies of what we think constitutes justice.
From a spiritual perspective, the destruction of those Israeli enemies was a matter of self preservation. The times that King Saul, King David, and Joshua failed to completely wipe them out, they did come back to haunt or attack them.
|
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Aug 14, 2023 22:36:46 GMT -5
This is a great pronouncement, but morality is not that cut and dried. Yeah, I'm big on pronouncements lately... Its cut & dry for God, but nothing any of us can master, we are all corrupt. The differences between good and evil are discernible, we really don't even need to apply ourselves to grasp most of it.. But admittedly, there are some gray area's that challenge my understanding. Thankfully, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
I've known a worker to claim, in a gospel meeting, that "there is no such thing as saved by grace, and there is no such thing as saved by faith." FWIW |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Aug 15, 2023 0:36:46 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm big on pronouncements lately... Its cut & dry for God, but nothing any of us can master, we are all corrupt. The differences between good and evil are discernible, we really don't even need to apply ourselves to grasp most of it.. But admittedly, there are some gray area's that challenge my understanding. Thankfully, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9)
I've known a worker to claim, in a gospel meeting, that "there is no such thing as saved by grace, and there is no such thing as saved by faith." FWIW
If that's the case, I guess were all screwed  .. He was probably thinking of what James said, "Faith without works is dead"..
I personally think we are saved by faith, but we can't be a hypocrite about it, the evidence of real faith is our works. Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, "Thy faith hath made the whole"
|
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Aug 15, 2023 1:28:54 GMT -5
I've known a worker to claim, in a gospel meeting, that "there is no such thing as saved by grace, and there is no such thing as saved by faith." FWIW If that's the case, I guess were all screwed .. He was probably thinking of what James said, "Faith without works is dead".. I personally think we are saved b faith, but we can't be a hypocrite about it, the evidence of real faith is our works. Jesus told nearly everyone he healed, "Thy faith hath made the whole"
I fortunately don't have to involve myself with such weighty puzzles. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 4:29:03 GMT -5
uh huh, confusion always helps one make good decisions.... And there are those who lack any 'depth of understanding'.. That wasn't what you asked for here... |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2023 4:36:21 GMT -5
Actually, the bible is very clear on that. Deuteronomy 19:11 defines premeditated murder; "But if any man hate his neighbour, and lie in wait for him, and rise up against him, and smite him mortally that he die... Then the elders of his city shall send and fetch him thence, and deliver him into the hand of the avenger of blood, that he may die. Thine eye shall not pity him, but thou shalt put away the guilt of innocent blood from Israel."
Killing for self-defense is permitted, God had Israel kill thousands for self-protection and self-preservation. Its also a lethal penalty for breaking some laws. That's what I meant by saying that the bible cuts through all the confusion and clarifies what's right and what's wrong. Some will say this or that, opinions are a dime a dozen, but the bible is the ultimate fact check and it isn't wishy-washy on most subjects.
You do realize the bible is chock full of contradictions. Here is a thought provoking link www.cs.umd.edu/users/mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf I do not see the Israelites killing women and children and their animals as self protection or self preservation. I do see them trying to justify killing when it clearly was murder. The killing of women was to prevent future generations of unbelievers arriving to do evil. The kids would have been preventing future revenge. There are probably more reasons... |
|
|
|
Post by snow on Aug 15, 2023 12:15:00 GMT -5
You do realize the bible is chock full of contradictions. Here is a thought provoking link www.cs.umd.edu/users/mvz/bible/bible-inconsistencies.pdf I do not see the Israelites killing women and children and their animals as self protection or self preservation. I do see them trying to justify killing when it clearly was murder. I've seen all those supposed contradictions from the skeptic sites before, but for anyone with an ounce of understanding, they aren't contradictory at all.. Way too many for me to refute.
When God ordered the complete destruction of a society, there was a good reason. "My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord" (Isaiah 55:8). When God gets fed-up, he has a way of cleaning the slate, and he rarely leaves a remnant of the population that he's decided to wipe-out, i.e; Noah's flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, the Canaanite tribes, etc. Our physical existence isn't a priority because when all hope is gone, there's only rebellion and no repentance. Its not murder when its the result of righteous judgement, and that's God's domain.. All scripture is profitable, it only seems detrimental when we impose our own idiosyncrasies of what we think constitutes justice. From a spiritual perspective, the destruction of those Israeli enemies was a matter of self preservation. The times that King Saul, King David, and Joshua failed to completely wipe them out, they did come back to haunt or attack them.
You do realize that those nations were no different than the Israelites they were just enemies because they had land that the Israelites wanted? We know that they sacrificed children just like their neighbors at one point in their history. The story of Abraham and Isaac is the story when God changes how they sacrifice. In other words they slowly decided to evolve and understand that sacrificing children wasn't a good thing. Most likely because they were a very small collections of tribes and they needed every kid they had to increase their numbers. I agree that they could have been wiped out in wars because there were some very powerful nations around them. But the killing of women children and animals was not required. And, not all of the women got killed. The young girls that were pleasant to the men were allowed to live and become their wives. But if they didn't like them then they were left to their own means which was basically a death sentence for them. If it was about getting rid of the gene pool altogether then they would not have dared take the young girls as their wives and continue to produce those evil nations DNA. So it was all about justifying horrifying behavior. Just like the overseers are doing when they protect the workers, their kingdom, over the safety of the children in their 'tribe'. |
|
.. He was probably thinking of what James said, "Faith without works is dead".. 
