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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2023 1:00:42 GMT -5
I think one of the most interesting things I learned from my religious studies courses is that so many clergymen just simply reject all the scholarly knowledge about history/culture etc. because the religious congregation will hear none of it -- it's upsetting to them and thus not profitable for the preacher. The congregations largely want someone to justify their cultural biases so they can comfortably control their environment, So true. When I mention parts of the bible to my sisters they have never heard of them before. That's because they aren't lovey dovey and aren't profitable for a preacher to preach to his congregation. They cherry pick what they preach. There is a lot of hard stuff in the bible that they never even know is there because they just listen to what the preacher chooses to preach to them. Not all are like that of course, but I have found many are like that. I worked with a principal once who was very religious, and played Christian music on her radio continuously. Then one day a new student came to the school, and his name was Nehemiah. She remarked to me once, in passing, "Where did his parents get his name from anyway? Who knows how to pronounce it?" When you don't know what you don't know.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 1:40:06 GMT -5
Revisionism won't work with the HS Spirit, he reveals what is in scriptures. It could explain a lot why you no longer get it... What makes you think I ever had IT, whatever IT is? Are ya bored Mr. eel?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2023 1:42:07 GMT -5
What makes you think I ever had IT, whatever IT is? Are ya bored Mr. eel? No, but thanks for asking.
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Post by Dan on Jul 6, 2023 2:07:16 GMT -5
How do you separate the two though? Just because some in the group aren't system worshipers, a large number of them are. So that would make it a cult mentality that many people have. And, some of you just happen to not agree with the cult mentality. Are you really part of the group if you don't follow what a majority of the workers believe? I wasn't very old when I came to recognize the two kinds of people in the 2x2's. I knew I wasn't a sycophant and the fact that some thought I should be annoyed me a lot because it was really the stupid things they believed that identified them for me.
I pegged you as the type of guy that likes to throw a monkey-wrench into what others considered proper protocol. Free thinkers don't play well among rigorous teetotalers. When there's no room for flexibility, its fun to buck a system that implements and adheres to standards of their own making. I use to always wish our strict Elders wife a 'Merry Christmas', just because I enjoyed watching her face turn red with contempt. Even after I told her I was joking, she wasn't amused and just shook her head. By her reaction, you would think that I had just set her house on fire! I guess people have no sense of humor about that which they have come to believe is sacred.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 2:23:07 GMT -5
I wasn't very old when I came to recognize the two kinds of people in the 2x2's. I knew I wasn't a sycophant and the fact that some thought I should be annoyed me a lot because it was really the stupid things they believed that identified them for me.
I pegged you as the type of guy that likes to throw a monkey-wrench into what others considered proper protocol. Free thinkers don't play well among rigorous teetotalers. When there's no room for flexibility, its fun to buck a system that implements and adheres to standards of their own making. I use to always wish our strict Elders wife a 'Merry Christmas', just because I enjoyed watching her face turn red with contempt. Even after I told her I was joking, she wasn't amused and just shook her head. By her reaction, you would think that I had just set her house on fire! I guess people have no sense of humor about that which they have come to believe is sacred.
Too funny... Me and several guys got together to find the most "naughty" verse(s) in the bible then say it in Sunday morning meetings just too see what happened... 1Sa_25:22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 1Sa_25:34 For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 1Ki_14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone. 1Ki_16:11 And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends. 1Ki_21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, 2Ki_9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel: One guy read them all then just sat down, that worked... This is one of the colors of some of the faces...
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Post by snow on Jul 6, 2023 15:45:04 GMT -5
How do you separate the two though? Just because some in the group aren't system worshipers, a large number of them are. So that would make it a cult mentality that many people have. And, some of you just happen to not agree with the cult mentality. Are you really part of the group if you don't follow what a majority of the workers believe? You'll find the current responses to the 2x2-me-too crisis interesting and the cultishness of the fellowship is being thoroughly discredited. I'm seeing that a lot of the friends don't have the cult mentality. System worshippers are given an opportunity to examine their faith these days. Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. I'm sure you know many of the friends that do not have the cult mentality. But you do have workers that do. The workers basically run the show/group. I am hearing from many of those who are still professing and thinking of leaving at the moment, talk about how scary it is because of what they've been taught about going to hell if they don't profess. So whether or not they want to believe it, it's clear that the workers are preaching it and it's also clear that it's causing heartache and uncertainty for those who want to leave. They are literally scared to. Now isn't that a system issue and doesn't it sound cult like? I think we're on the same page but I'll admit that I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to tell me.
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Post by snow on Jul 6, 2023 15:47:53 GMT -5
So true. When I mention parts of the bible to my sisters they have never heard of them before. That's because they aren't lovey dovey and aren't profitable for a preacher to preach to his congregation. They cherry pick what they preach. There is a lot of hard stuff in the bible that they never even know is there because they just listen to what the preacher chooses to preach to them. Not all are like that of course, but I have found many are like that. I worked with a principal once who was very religious, and played Christian music on her radio continuously. Then one day a new student came to the school, and his name was Nehemiah. She remarked to me once, in passing, "Where did his parents get his name from anyway? Who knows how to pronounce it?" When you don't know what you don't know. LOL now that's pretty bad. How could a Christian not know the name Nehemiah! But that's the thing, many just don't go beyond the church sermons and think they know Christianity/bible.
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Post by chuck on Jul 6, 2023 18:48:16 GMT -5
That's just what I said didn't I. Seems like a strawman to me as my point was scripture does not say adultery is exclusively about two people having sex and it also does not say two consenting people having sex that are not married is by default a sin or adultery. Adultery is the breaking of unity and not two unmarried people having consensual sex like you said it was. Adultery could be committed without involving sex or anything sexual. You also said two unmarried people having sex was a sin which is also incorrect, the sin is treating someone like and object. This is pornia or fornication. This can happen within a marriage or outside of marriage, it also could happen whilst commiting adultery but it is most definitely not saying their sinners by default because they're not married to each other like you did. Understand the concepts Dan, too many good people have had their lives ruined from religious people heaping guilt on people all because they didn't know what they're talking about. It would help to also understand the debate during the day between Hillel and Shammai and who Jesus sided with in their interpretation of Torah. Matthew 5:32 [32]But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. To understand these concepts spoken in Matthew you need to go back to the Torah and understand Hillel and Shammai's yoke and why Jesus sided with one of them. When you understand these concepts you will see how fundamentally wrong religious people have been about divorce adultery and fornication over the centuries and then you will grasp how many lives have been affected by this ignorance.
Matthew 19:9 is not a concept; "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery".. That's seems pretty point blank to me, no interpretation is necessary, your twisting it to mean the opposite, but adultery is simply having sex with someone other than your spouse. The exemption Jesus gave was that if a divorce occurred due to a cheating spouse, in that case it was not adultery to remarry.
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" (1 Corinthians 6:18). "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Dozens of verses describe fornicating as a no no.
Its not religion that established the definition of adultery, but the bible. And I never implied that 2 unmarried people having sex was adultery, that is defined as fornicating.
Shammai and Hillel were two influential Jewish rabbis whose commentaries on the Torah shaped Jewish theology and philosophy. The fact is that Jesus presented the truth, and His agreement with either Shammai or Hillel was secondary and coincidental, imo his teaching cannot be seen as a defense of any rabbi. Shammai was a Pharisee who emphasized the need for temple rituals, and his interpretation is characterized as strict, literalist, and Israel-centric, but the new covenant changed all that. Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary of Shammai, was less concerned with temple worship. His commentary is seen as being more liberal, tolerant, and accepting of Gentiles. www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.htmlLook back a few posts, I asked you specifically about adultery and sin and you said that is correct. It seems now you have changed your mind. "To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?." The words are Hebrew concepts, you have just appropriated the words translated into english and applied your own customs or rather customs you have been taught with no understanding of what it may have meant to the original people this was directed at. Again you are not understanding the oroginal concepts. Adultery isn't the act of sex, adultery is the breaking of unity. Fornication also isn't the act of sex, fornication is idolatry. You could however commit adultery or fornication with sex but the physical act itself is not a prerequisite for either concept. Adultery could be being a lazy ass husband, fornication could be an addiction to porn. Matthew 19:9, the adultery wasn't the fornication. the adultery was not giving your wife a certificate of divorce before marrying another it was also remarrying someone you had already previously divorced. This verse you have used is Jesus's interpretation of Deuteronomy 24:1-4, Jesus agreed with Shammai and his interpretation of Torah on this occasion, most other times he agreed with Hillel, what you also do not understand is Jesus is like both these men, a mortal human being interpreting Torah and all of Jesus's commentary in the NT is his Interpretation of TORAH. The gospels are mostly just commentary on the TORAH. For some reason people have got in their head the New Testament is something entirely new, it's not, Jesus said it himself, he did not come to abolish the law...... Deuteronomy 24:1-4 [1]When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2]And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3]And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4]Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Therefore it is not by default sinful nor adultery or fornication for two consenting people to have sex if neither of them are married which was the initial claim you made. It's wrong, it's highly judgemental, it is not scriptural, its highly ignorant and its a destructive doctrine that's effected millions of people's lives through guilt and shame. The got questions article is religious spin. No proof whatsoever it's "secondary" or "coincidental" but if you start with your conclusions that's all the proof you need I guess..........
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Post by chuck on Jul 6, 2023 19:03:04 GMT -5
I worked with a principal once who was very religious, and played Christian music on her radio continuously. Then one day a new student came to the school, and his name was Nehemiah. She remarked to me once, in passing, "Where did his parents get his name from anyway? Who knows how to pronounce it?" When you don't know what you don't know. LOL now that's pretty bad. How could a Christian not know the name Nehemiah! But that's the thing, many just don't go beyond the church sermons and think they know Christianity/bible. When you have been told you are right because you are a "Christian", you start from that point, so everyone else by default is wrong. You see it here all the time, their customs of Christianity are right and anybody who dares to suggests otherwise is a heathen, the devil, headed to hell, needs a cure ect ect.....
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Post by chuck on Jul 6, 2023 19:24:36 GMT -5
I pegged you as the type of guy that likes to throw a monkey-wrench into what others considered proper protocol. Free thinkers don't play well among rigorous teetotalers. When there's no room for flexibility, its fun to buck a system that implements and adheres to standards of their own making. I use to always wish our strict Elders wife a 'Merry Christmas', just because I enjoyed watching her face turn red with contempt. Even after I told her I was joking, she wasn't amused and just shook her head. By her reaction, you would think that I had just set her house on fire! I guess people have no sense of humor about that which they have come to believe is sacred.
Too funny... Me and several guys got together to find the most "naughty" verse(s) in the bible then say it in Sunday morning meetings just too see what happened... 1Sa_25:22 So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 1Sa_25:34 For in very deed, as the LORD God of Israel liveth, which hath kept me back from hurting thee, except thou hadst hasted and come to meet me, surely there had not been left unto Nabal by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall. 1Ki_14:10 Therefore, behold, I will bring evil upon the house of Jeroboam, and will cut off from Jeroboam him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, and will take away the remnant of the house of Jeroboam, as a man taketh away dung, till it be all gone. 1Ki_16:11 And it came to pass, when he began to reign, as soon as he sat on his throne, that he slew all the house of Baasha: he left him not one that pisseth against a wall, neither of his kinsfolks, nor of his friends. 1Ki_21:21 Behold, I will bring evil upon thee, and will take away thy posterity, and will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel, 2Ki_9:8 For the whole house of Ahab shall perish: and I will cut off from Ahab him that pisseth against the wall, and him that is shut up and left in Israel: One guy read them all then just sat down, that worked... This is one of the colors of some of the faces...Ezekiel 23:20 [20]For she doted upon their paramours, whose flesh is as the flesh of asses, and whose issue is like the issue of horses. 1 Kings 12:10 [10]And the young men that were grown up with him spake unto him, saying, Thus shalt thou speak unto this people that spake unto thee, saying, Thy father made our yoke heavy, but make thou it lighter unto us; thus shalt thou say unto them, My little finger shall be thicker than my father's loins.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 19:42:14 GMT -5
Matthew 19:9 is not a concept; "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery".. That's seems pretty point blank to me, no interpretation is necessary, your twisting it to mean the opposite, but adultery is simply having sex with someone other than your spouse. The exemption Jesus gave was that if a divorce occurred due to a cheating spouse, in that case it was not adultery to remarry.
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" (1 Corinthians 6:18). "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Dozens of verses describe fornicating as a no no.
Its not religion that established the definition of adultery, but the bible. And I never implied that 2 unmarried people having sex was adultery, that is defined as fornicating.
Shammai and Hillel were two influential Jewish rabbis whose commentaries on the Torah shaped Jewish theology and philosophy. The fact is that Jesus presented the truth, and His agreement with either Shammai or Hillel was secondary and coincidental, imo his teaching cannot be seen as a defense of any rabbi. Shammai was a Pharisee who emphasized the need for temple rituals, and his interpretation is characterized as strict, literalist, and Israel-centric, but the new covenant changed all that. Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary of Shammai, was less concerned with temple worship. His commentary is seen as being more liberal, tolerant, and accepting of Gentiles. www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.htmlLook back a few posts, I asked you specifically about adultery and sin and you said that is correct. It seems now you have changed your mind. "To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?." The words are Hebrew concepts, you have just appropriated the words translated into english and applied your own customs or rather customs you have been taught with no understanding of what it may have meant to the original people this was directed at. Again you are not understanding the oroginal concepts. Adultery isn't the act of sex, adultery is the breaking of unity. Fornication also isn't the act of sex, fornication is idolatry. You could however commit adultery or fornication with sex but the physical act itself is not a prerequisite for either concept. Adultery could be being a lazy ass husband, fornication could be an addiction to porn. Matthew 19:9, the adultery wasn't the fornication. the adultery was not giving your wife a certificate of divorce before marrying another it was also remarrying someone you had already previously divorced. This verse you have used is Jesus's interpretation of Deuteronomy 24:1-4, Jesus agreed with Shammai and his interpretation of Torah on this occasion, most other times he agreed with Hillel, what you also do not understand is Jesus is like both these men, a mortal human being interpreting Torah and all of Jesus's commentary in the NT is his Interpretation of TORAH. The gospels are mostly just commentary on the TORAH. For some reason people have got in their head the New Testament is something entirely new, it's not, Jesus said it himself, he did not come to abolish the law...... Deuteronomy 24:1-4 [1]When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2]And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3]And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4]Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Therefore it is not by default sinful nor adultery or fornication for two consenting people to have sex if neither of them are married which was the initial claim you made. It's wrong, it's highly judgemental, it is not scriptural, its highly ignorant and its a destructive doctrine that's effected millions of people's lives through guilt and shame. The got questions article is religious spin. No proof whatsoever it's "secondary" or "coincidental" but if you start with your conclusions that's all the proof you need I guess.......... Balderdash Hebraic scholar...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 22:11:11 GMT -5
Revisionism won't work with the HS Spirit, he reveals what is in scriptures. It could explain a lot why you no longer get it... What makes you think I ever had IT, whatever IT is? You were in the Truth for 50 years and also an elder and never had IT? You've been lying all this time? Interesting revelation...
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Post by Dan on Jul 6, 2023 22:45:29 GMT -5
Matthew 19:9 is not a concept; "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery".. That's seems pretty point blank to me, no interpretation is necessary, your twisting it to mean the opposite, but adultery is simply having sex with someone other than your spouse. The exemption Jesus gave was that if a divorce occurred due to a cheating spouse, in that case it was not adultery to remarry.
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" (1 Corinthians 6:18). "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Dozens of verses describe fornicating as a no no.
Its not religion that established the definition of adultery, but the bible. And I never implied that 2 unmarried people having sex was adultery, that is defined as fornicating.
Shammai and Hillel were two influential Jewish rabbis whose commentaries on the Torah shaped Jewish theology and philosophy. The fact is that Jesus presented the truth, and His agreement with either Shammai or Hillel was secondary and coincidental, imo his teaching cannot be seen as a defense of any rabbi. Shammai was a Pharisee who emphasized the need for temple rituals, and his interpretation is characterized as strict, literalist, and Israel-centric, but the new covenant changed all that. Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary of Shammai, was less concerned with temple worship. His commentary is seen as being more liberal, tolerant, and accepting of Gentiles. www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.htmlLook back a few posts, I asked you specifically about adultery and sin and you said that is correct. It seems now you have changed your mind. "To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?." The words are Hebrew concepts, you have just appropriated the words translated into english and applied your own customs or rather customs you have been taught with no understanding of what it may have meant to the original people this was directed at. Again you are not understanding the oroginal concepts. Adultery isn't the act of sex, adultery is the breaking of unity. Fornication also isn't the act of sex, fornication is idolatry. You could however commit adultery or fornication with sex but the physical act itself is not a prerequisite for either concept. Adultery could be being a lazy ass husband, fornication could be an addiction to porn. Matthew 19:9, the adultery wasn't the fornication. the adultery was not giving your wife a certificate of divorce before marrying another it was also remarrying someone you had already previously divorced. This verse you have used is Jesus's interpretation of Deuteronomy 24:1-4, Jesus agreed with Shammai and his interpretation of Torah on this occasion, most other times he agreed with Hillel, what you also do not understand is Jesus is like both these men, a mortal human being interpreting Torah and all of Jesus's commentary in the NT is his Interpretation of TORAH. The gospels are mostly just commentary on the TORAH. For some reason people have got in their head the New Testament is something entirely new, it's not, Jesus said it himself, he did not come to abolish the law...... Deuteronomy 24:1-4 [1]When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2]And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3]And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4]Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Therefore it is not by default sinful nor adultery or fornication for two consenting people to have sex if neither of them are married which was the initial claim you made. It's wrong, it's highly judgemental, it is not scriptural, its highly ignorant and its a destructive doctrine that's effected millions of people's lives through guilt and shame. The got questions article is religious spin. No proof whatsoever it's "secondary" or "coincidental" but if you start with your conclusions that's all the proof you need I guess..........
I think I was clear when I wrote that sex outside of marriage is sin. If you have sex outside of your marriage, its adultery, and with an unmarried person who engages in sex, its fornication, which is also sin. Very simple and biblical.
Jesus response to Deuteronomy 24 was, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to put away your wives, but it was not this way from the beginning.” (Matthew 19:8). So Deuteronomy 24 was never a law or a command as some of the Jews understood it, but merely permission or toleration of that practice for the prevention of greater mischief, cruelty, or abuse of hard-hearted men towards their wives. This was only for a season, until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10) until the coming of the Messiah when things were to return to their first institution and purest condition.
The husband is not commanded to put her away, but if he did put her away, it says "Let him write and give her a bill of divorcement, before he send her out of his house."
Adultery is a word also used to express spiritual separation such as in "adulterous generation" (Matthew 16:4), but in the context of marriage, its being physically unfaithful.
Keep in mind that Jesus didn't need to interpret the Torah or debate & argue with Shammai & Hillel, he was the Word from the beginning (John 1).
We will disagree because I believe the bible clearly says that adultery is wrong, "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife.. the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10).
And Paul said, "But if you cannot control your body, then you should marry. It is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire" (1 Corinthians 7:9). Note that he didn't say; 'Its better to fornicate than to burn with passion'. You know why? Because fornicating is sin. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals... will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)
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Post by chuck on Jul 7, 2023 5:34:11 GMT -5
Look back a few posts, I asked you specifically about adultery and sin and you said that is correct. It seems now you have changed your mind. "To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?." The words are Hebrew concepts, you have just appropriated the words translated into english and applied your own customs or rather customs you have been taught with no understanding of what it may have meant to the original people this was directed at. Again you are not understanding the oroginal concepts. Adultery isn't the act of sex, adultery is the breaking of unity. Fornication also isn't the act of sex, fornication is idolatry. You could however commit adultery or fornication with sex but the physical act itself is not a prerequisite for either concept. Adultery could be being a lazy ass husband, fornication could be an addiction to porn. Matthew 19:9, the adultery wasn't the fornication. the adultery was not giving your wife a certificate of divorce before marrying another it was also remarrying someone you had already previously divorced. This verse you have used is Jesus's interpretation of Deuteronomy 24:1-4, Jesus agreed with Shammai and his interpretation of Torah on this occasion, most other times he agreed with Hillel, what you also do not understand is Jesus is like both these men, a mortal human being interpreting Torah and all of Jesus's commentary in the NT is his Interpretation of TORAH. The gospels are mostly just commentary on the TORAH. For some reason people have got in their head the New Testament is something entirely new, it's not, Jesus said it himself, he did not come to abolish the law...... Deuteronomy 24:1-4 [1]When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. [2]And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. [3]And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; [4]Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Therefore it is not by default sinful nor adultery or fornication for two consenting people to have sex if neither of them are married which was the initial claim you made. It's wrong, it's highly judgemental, it is not scriptural, its highly ignorant and its a destructive doctrine that's effected millions of people's lives through guilt and shame. The got questions article is religious spin. No proof whatsoever it's "secondary" or "coincidental" but if you start with your conclusions that's all the proof you need I guess..........
I think I was clear when I wrote that sex outside of marriage is sin. If you have sex outside of your marriage, its adultery, and with an unmarried person who engages in sex, its fornication, which is also sin. Very simple and biblical.
Jesus response to Deuteronomy 24 was, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to put away your wives, but it was not this way from the beginning.” (Matthew 19:8). So Deuteronomy 24 was never a law or a command as some of the Jews understood it, but merely permission or toleration of that practice for the prevention of greater mischief, cruelty, or abuse of hard-hearted men towards their wives. This was only for a season, until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10) until the coming of the Messiah when things were to return to their first institution and purest condition.
The husband is not commanded to put her away, but if he did put her away, it says "Let him write and give her a bill of divorcement, before he send her out of his house."
Adultery is a word also used to express spiritual separation such as in "adulterous generation" (Matthew 16:4), but in the context of marriage, its being physically unfaithful.
Keep in mind that Jesus didn't need to interpret the Torah or debate & argue with Shammai & Hillel, he was the Word from the beginning (John 1).
We will disagree because I believe the bible clearly says that adultery is wrong, "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife.. the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10).
And Paul said, "But if you cannot control your body, then you should marry. It is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire" (1 Corinthians 7:9). Note that he didn't say; 'Its better to fornicate than to burn with passion'. You know why? Because fornicating is sin. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals... will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)
To make this statement I don't think you have read my posts very carefully. "We will disagree because I believe the bible clearly says that adultery is wrong" When did I say adultery was wrong or right?. What I said was adultery is the breaking of unity or more specifically echad. I doubt Jesus said anything much before he was 1yr old like most babies, unless you were there to confirm otherwise?. John 1 is commentary on the creation poem in Genesis. Sex outside of marriage encompasses a lot of people, this also includes both parties being unmarried, you may want to reword your post of this doesn't represent your position as I specifically asked you "And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?" and you said correct. I managed to sum up your argument as you agreed with my summation, can you sum up mine? maybe this will help you understand what I actually said and what I didn't say regardless wether you agree or disagree with me. Paul lived in a different culture, why cherry pick a handful of things in his culture to apply to your life, Paul also told slaves to obey their masters, are you ok with that today?. Homosexuality is beginning to be accepted in this culture like slavery was accepted in Paul's culture.........learn to seperate culture from intent of scripture.......its the same as the adultery and fornication concepts, they are concepts of intent in a given culture that can be applied at any given time, cultures change but yet yourself amongst many others hand pick parts of a old culture that you don't even really understand and opress people with it today with the wrong intent. Its a recipe for disaster as it guilts and shames millions of people for no reason other than ignorance and selfishness and this religous furver has brought hell to many lives unnecessarily. Adultery could be mental abuse in marriage, you still don't understand the concept
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2023 9:08:44 GMT -5
I think I was clear when I wrote that sex outside of marriage is sin. If you have sex outside of your marriage, its adultery, and with an unmarried person who engages in sex, its fornication, which is also sin. Very simple and biblical.
Jesus response to Deuteronomy 24 was, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, suffered you to put away your wives, but it was not this way from the beginning.” (Matthew 19:8). So Deuteronomy 24 was never a law or a command as some of the Jews understood it, but merely permission or toleration of that practice for the prevention of greater mischief, cruelty, or abuse of hard-hearted men towards their wives. This was only for a season, until the time of reformation (Hebrews 9:10) until the coming of the Messiah when things were to return to their first institution and purest condition.
The husband is not commanded to put her away, but if he did put her away, it says "Let him write and give her a bill of divorcement, before he send her out of his house."
Adultery is a word also used to express spiritual separation such as in "adulterous generation" (Matthew 16:4), but in the context of marriage, its being physically unfaithful.
Keep in mind that Jesus didn't need to interpret the Torah or debate & argue with Shammai & Hillel, he was the Word from the beginning (John 1).
We will disagree because I believe the bible clearly says that adultery is wrong, "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife.. the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death." (Leviticus 20:10).
And Paul said, "But if you cannot control your body, then you should marry. It is better to marry than to burn with sexual desire" (1 Corinthians 7:9). Note that he didn't say; 'Its better to fornicate than to burn with passion'. You know why? Because fornicating is sin. "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals... will inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Corinthians 6:9)
To make this statement I don't think you have read my posts very carefully. "We will disagree because I believe the bible clearly says that adultery is wrong" When did I say adultery was wrong or right?. What I said was adultery is the breaking of unity or more specifically echad. I doubt Jesus said anything much before he was 1yr old like most babies, unless you were there to confirm otherwise?. John 1 is commentary on the creation poem in Genesis. Sex outside of marriage encompasses a lot of people, this also includes both parties being unmarried, you may want to reword your post of this doesn't represent your position as I specifically asked you "And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?" and you said correct. I managed to sum up your argument as you agreed with my summation, can you sum up mine? maybe this will help you understand what I actually said and what I didn't say regardless wether you agree or disagree with me. Paul lived in a different culture, why cherry pick a handful of things in his culture to apply to your life, Paul also told slaves to obey their masters, are you ok with that today?. Homosexuality is beginning to be accepted in this culture like slavery was accepted in Paul's culture.........learn to seperate culture from intent of scripture.......its the same as the adultery and fornication concepts, they are concepts of intent in a given culture that can be applied at any given time, cultures change but yet yourself amongst many others hand pick parts of a old culture that you don't even really understand and opress people with it today with the wrong intent. Its a recipe for disaster as it guilts and shames millions of people for no reason other than ignorance and selfishness and this religous furver has brought hell to many lives unnecessarily. Adultery could be mental abuse in marriage, you still don't understand the concept Your brain has been scrambled with all that Hebraic mindset crap...
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Post by chuck on Jul 7, 2023 9:20:15 GMT -5
To make this statement I don't think you have read my posts very carefully. "We will disagree because I believe the bible clearly says that adultery is wrong" When did I say adultery was wrong or right?. What I said was adultery is the breaking of unity or more specifically echad. I doubt Jesus said anything much before he was 1yr old like most babies, unless you were there to confirm otherwise?. John 1 is commentary on the creation poem in Genesis. Sex outside of marriage encompasses a lot of people, this also includes both parties being unmarried, you may want to reword your post of this doesn't represent your position as I specifically asked you "And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?" and you said correct. I managed to sum up your argument as you agreed with my summation, can you sum up mine? maybe this will help you understand what I actually said and what I didn't say regardless wether you agree or disagree with me. Paul lived in a different culture, why cherry pick a handful of things in his culture to apply to your life, Paul also told slaves to obey their masters, are you ok with that today?. Homosexuality is beginning to be accepted in this culture like slavery was accepted in Paul's culture.........learn to seperate culture from intent of scripture.......its the same as the adultery and fornication concepts, they are concepts of intent in a given culture that can be applied at any given time, cultures change but yet yourself amongst many others hand pick parts of a old culture that you don't even really understand and opress people with it today with the wrong intent. Its a recipe for disaster as it guilts and shames millions of people for no reason other than ignorance and selfishness and this religous furver has brought hell to many lives unnecessarily. Adultery could be mental abuse in marriage, you still don't understand the concept Your brain has been scrambled with all that Hebraic mindset crap... Most everything Jesus taught come from the Hebrews........because he was one....that must really irk you for you to 💩 on his heritage so easily like that...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2023 9:32:05 GMT -5
Your brain has been scrambled with all that Hebraic mindset crap... Most everything Jesus taught come from the Hebrews........because he was one....that must really irk you for you to 💩 on his heritage so easily like that... Everything he taught came from God. No wonder you have no clue...
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Post by margaret on Jul 7, 2023 13:37:22 GMT -5
What makes you think I ever had IT, whatever IT is? You were in the Truth for 50 years and also an elder and never had IT? You've been lying all this time? Interesting revelation... Where is the indication on these boards that you have IT?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2023 15:27:53 GMT -5
You were in the Truth for 50 years and also an elder and never had IT? You've been lying all this time? Interesting revelation... Where is the indication on these boards that you have IT? You certainly wouldn't know up from down...
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Post by fixit on Jul 7, 2023 15:30:30 GMT -5
Where is the indication on these boards that you have IT? You certainly wouldn't up from down... What a clueless response to a reasonable request!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2023 15:35:08 GMT -5
You certainly wouldn't up from down... What a clueless response to a reasonable request! I see zero in you, do tell how you got to that place especially as an Elder...
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Post by chuck on Jul 7, 2023 18:03:02 GMT -5
Most everything Jesus taught come from the Hebrews........because he was one....that must really irk you for you to 💩 on his heritage so easily like that... Everything he taught came from God. No wonder you have no clue... Well that would depend what you think God is, and to understand what that meant to a Hebrew like Jesus you have to understand the things you keep 💩 on.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2023 22:31:11 GMT -5
I wasn't very old when I came to recognize the two kinds of people in the 2x2's. I knew I wasn't a sycophant and the fact that some thought I should be annoyed me a lot because it was really the stupid things they believed that identified them for me. I pegged you as the type of guy that likes to throw a monkey-wrench into what others considered proper protocol. Free thinkers don't play well among rigorous teetotalers. When there's no room for flexibility, its fun to buck a system that implements and adheres to standards of their own making. I use to always wish our strict Elders wife a 'Merry Christmas', just because I enjoyed watching her face turn red with contempt. Even after I told her I was joking, she wasn't amused and just shook her head. By her reaction, you would think that I had just set her house on fire! I guess people have no sense of humor about that which they have come to believe is sacred.
I think I get your point. But most of the time I got in trouble because I pointed out things that other people were overlooking -- and it turned out they really didn't want to know anyway. And I really got in trouble for defending someone who was getting beat up on. All the time, especially with the workers. But you're right -- too many people take themselves too seriously and lack a sense of humor. It seems I never had to intentionally throw a monkey-wrench because I was always more like getting caught in a trip wire.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2023 22:38:20 GMT -5
What makes you think I ever had IT, whatever IT is? You were in the Truth for 50 years and also an elder and never had IT? You've been lying all this time? Interesting revelation... No, I didn't lie. I never said I had IT. I had a lot of things, but never IT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2023 23:32:26 GMT -5
You were in the Truth for 50 years and also an elder and never had IT? You've been lying all this time? Interesting revelation... No, I didn't lie. I never said I had IT. I had a lot of things, but never IT. Ya can't eel your way out of this one.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 7, 2023 23:49:37 GMT -5
No, I didn't lie. I never said I had IT. I had a lot of things, but never IT. Ya can't eel your way out of this one. I don't have to -- you're the one with the IT.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2023 2:05:59 GMT -5
Ya can't eel your way out of this one. I don't have to -- you're the one with the IT. Oops no cigar for you, that was truly lame...
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 8, 2023 6:06:36 GMT -5
I don't have to -- you're the one with the IT. Oops no cigar for you, that was truly lame... No problem. I don't smoke.
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