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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 10:51:28 GMT -5
The answer to "The Doctrinal Root of the Matter" is laid out in 1 Corinthians 7, any sex is restricted to marriage, the rest is sin.. Its that simple. Those who ignore that passage are not spiritually led, or they've independently decided to flat-out ignore or disregard what the spirit and scripture teach. We all do that on occasion, but when its done with flagrant disregard for others and victimizes a brother/sister, or worse an innocent child, then that person should be excommunicated immediately (Mark 9: 42-43).
Since all scripture is inspired by the Spirit of God (2 Timothy 3:16), adhering to the written word is being spiritually led.
As usual no original context and typical religious judgement. To the Hebrew people the family unit was of utmost importance, this is why in the Noah story he was perfect in his generation, he kept his family together and functional, now sleeping around getting women pregnant with no intention of marriage had all sorts of implications in this culture for this type of conduct that you have no idea about and that we do not practice today. 2 things, contraception has been developed and two adults engaging in consensual activity is not a sin. Stop parroting religious nonsense and be a bit more informed before implying people are sinners for not living up to YOUR misinformed standards. What other customs do you insist people keep from before the 1st century that are no longer practiced today?. His standards are based on Gods, yours are on your own very limited subjective opinions...
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Post by kaitlinjanern on Jul 1, 2023 12:19:57 GMT -5
Which overseer? Which state? I agree with you. As I have been attending an upstanding Christ led church, I realized what is not taught is life council, the commandments and what they actually mean, personal relationships not modesty flogging and there is no outreach. How many new people do you know of and when people can’t explain what they believe and everyone thinks it’s not right then it may be a red flag, not just “because we’re special and people don’t understand”. The specialness and the the spirit led allows too much to go unrecognized and undisciplined lives. I’m not speaking against the Holy Spirit but against the self led lives and ministry without Christs standard but too much people standards. The people have caused and enabled the workers in this aspect by putting on a dog and pony show everytime they’re around. Perspective is reality right? :/ I was harassed by several that are now out of the work once I divorced but not a single people reached out to ask or to visit, only sent gospel Mtg invites like I had to start the process over. That was more hurtful than anything. I think the people who have left were very alive spiritually and knew something wasn’t right but are considered the troubled ones.
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Post by Dan on Jul 1, 2023 18:12:42 GMT -5
The answer to "The Doctrinal Root of the Matter" is laid out in 1 Corinthians 7, any sex is restricted to marriage, the rest is sin.. Its that simple. Those who ignore that passage are not spiritually led, or they've independently decided to flat-out ignore or disregard what the spirit and scripture teach. We all do that on occasion, but when its done with flagrant disregard for others and victimizes a brother/sister, or worse an innocent child, then that person should be excommunicated immediately (Mark 9: 42-43).
Since all scripture is inspired by the Spirit of God (2 Timothy 3:16), adhering to the written word is being spiritually led. As usual no original context and typical religious judgement. To the Hebrew people the family unit was of utmost importance, this is why in the Noah story he was perfect in his generation, he kept his family together and functional, now sleeping around getting women pregnant with no intention of marriage had all sorts of implications in this culture for this type of conduct that you have no idea about and that we do not practice today. 2 things, contraception has been developed and two adults engaging in consensual activity is not a sin. Stop parroting religious nonsense and be a bit more informed before implying people are sinners for not living up to YOUR misinformed standards. What other customs do you insist people keep from before the 1st century that are no longer practiced today?.
As Wally mentioned, God's standards are not subject to change (Hebrews 13:8). In John 8, Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go and sin no more", which clearly implies that she had engaged in sin. That's not religious nonsense, not my standards, or cultural standards, because it came straight from Christ.
Contraception did not negate the law forbidding adultery or fornication. That's like saying that since we have more humane ways of killing people today, murder is okay! I'm not misinformed, its all right there in black and white, some folks just insist on misconstruing scripture in an effort justify sin. The difference between good & evil isn't altered to satisfy cultural standards, and scripture does not conform to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2023 21:51:20 GMT -5
As usual no original context and typical religious judgement. To the Hebrew people the family unit was of utmost importance, this is why in the Noah story he was perfect in his generation, he kept his family together and functional, now sleeping around getting women pregnant with no intention of marriage had all sorts of implications in this culture for this type of conduct that you have no idea about and that we do not practice today. 2 things, contraception has been developed and two adults engaging in consensual activity is not a sin. Stop parroting religious nonsense and be a bit more informed before implying people are sinners for not living up to YOUR misinformed standards. What other customs do you insist people keep from before the 1st century that are no longer practiced today?.
As Wally mentioned, God's standards are not subject to change (Hebrews 13:8). In John 8, Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go and sin no more", which clearly implies that she had engaged in sin. That's not religious nonsense, not my standards, or cultural standards, because it came straight from Christ.
Contraception did not negate the law forbidding adultery or fornication. That's like saying that since we have more humane ways of killing people today, murder is okay! I'm not misinformed, its all right there in black and white, some folks just insist on misconstruing scripture in an effort justify sin. The difference between good & evil isn't altered to satisfy cultural standards, and scripture does not conform to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)
BOOM!!!! Once again brother spot on... He's a bit more modern than he pretends not to be...
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Post by chuck on Jul 3, 2023 3:11:51 GMT -5
As usual no original context and typical religious judgement. To the Hebrew people the family unit was of utmost importance, this is why in the Noah story he was perfect in his generation, he kept his family together and functional, now sleeping around getting women pregnant with no intention of marriage had all sorts of implications in this culture for this type of conduct that you have no idea about and that we do not practice today. 2 things, contraception has been developed and two adults engaging in consensual activity is not a sin. Stop parroting religious nonsense and be a bit more informed before implying people are sinners for not living up to YOUR misinformed standards. What other customs do you insist people keep from before the 1st century that are no longer practiced today?.
As Wally mentioned, God's standards are not subject to change (Hebrews 13:8). In John 8, Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go and sin no more", which clearly implies that she had engaged in sin. That's not religious nonsense, not my standards, or cultural standards, because it came straight from Christ.
Contraception did not negate the law forbidding adultery or fornication. That's like saying that since we have more humane ways of killing people today, murder is okay! I'm not misinformed, its all right there in black and white, some folks just insist on misconstruing scripture in an effort justify sin. The difference between good & evil isn't altered to satisfy cultural standards, and scripture does not conform to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)
To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?.
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Post by Dan on Jul 3, 2023 12:23:20 GMT -5
As Wally mentioned, God's standards are not subject to change (Hebrews 13:8). In John 8, Jesus told the adulterous woman to "Go and sin no more", which clearly implies that she had engaged in sin. That's not religious nonsense, not my standards, or cultural standards, because it came straight from Christ.
Contraception did not negate the law forbidding adultery or fornication. That's like saying that since we have more humane ways of killing people today, murder is okay! I'm not misinformed, its all right there in black and white, some folks just insist on misconstruing scripture in an effort justify sin. The difference between good & evil isn't altered to satisfy cultural standards, and scripture does not conform to private interpretation (2 Peter 1:20)
To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?.
Correct
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Post by chuck on Jul 3, 2023 23:33:03 GMT -5
To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?.
Correct
Dan do you understand the difference between moichao and porneia?. Adultery or moichao is marital unfaithfulness, the concept being sabotaging the unity or Echad between a husband and wife, adultery could be anything from being an abusive or lazy husband to having an affair with another women. Porneia is sexual immorality, and the concept behind that is basically treating another as an object. Hence the word porn, which is treating other people as a object for your own pleasure. Your suggestion that consensual sex outside of a married man and women is sin or adultery is not what the scriptures say at all. What scripture say's is dont sabotage the unity of your marriage and don't treat other people as objects for your own pleasure. There are millions of situations where couples are not married but also are not being unfaithful or are not treating people as an object that you have just condemned as sinners because of ignorance......
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Post by chuck on Jul 3, 2023 23:46:32 GMT -5
As usual no original context and typical religious judgement. To the Hebrew people the family unit was of utmost importance, this is why in the Noah story he was perfect in his generation, he kept his family together and functional, now sleeping around getting women pregnant with no intention of marriage had all sorts of implications in this culture for this type of conduct that you have no idea about and that we do not practice today. 2 things, contraception has been developed and two adults engaging in consensual activity is not a sin. Stop parroting religious nonsense and be a bit more informed before implying people are sinners for not living up to YOUR misinformed standards. What other customs do you insist people keep from before the 1st century that are no longer practiced today?. His standards are based on Gods, yours are on your own very limited subjective opinions... Well his God doesn't understand the concepts behind the words he is using to judge guilt and shame people who were doing nothing wrong in the first place.
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Post by Dan on Jul 4, 2023 1:12:24 GMT -5
Dan do you understand the difference between moichao and porneia?. Adultery or moichao is marital unfaithfulness, the concept being sabotaging the unity or Echad between a husband and wife, adultery could be anything from being an abusive or lazy husband to having an affair with another women. Porneia is sexual immorality, and the concept behind that is basically treating another as an object. Hence the word porn, which is treating other people as a object for your own pleasure. Your suggestion that consensual sex outside of a married man and women is sin or adultery is not what the scriptures say at all. What scripture say's is dont sabotage the unity of your marriage and don't treat other people as objects for your own pleasure. There are millions of situations where couples are not married but also are not being unfaithful or are not treating people as an object that you have just condemned as sinners because of ignorance......
Sleeping around is sabotaging your marriage. How many wives or husbands do you know who wouldn't be upset with a cheating spouse? Or even file for divorce because of an unfaithful spouse?
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 2:40:07 GMT -5
To make sure Im understanding you correctly. You think any sex is a sin excpet between a man and a women are married to each other?. And any sex outside of a man and women who are married to each other is adultery?. Correct
So how to you feel about common law marriage?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 2:52:39 GMT -5
Dan do you understand the difference between moichao and porneia?. Adultery or moichao is marital unfaithfulness, the concept being sabotaging the unity or Echad between a husband and wife, adultery could be anything from being an abusive or lazy husband to having an affair with another women. Porneia is sexual immorality, and the concept behind that is basically treating another as an object. Hence the word porn, which is treating other people as a object for your own pleasure. Your suggestion that consensual sex outside of a married man and women is sin or adultery is not what the scriptures say at all. What scripture say's is dont sabotage the unity of your marriage and don't treat other people as objects for your own pleasure. There are millions of situations where couples are not married but also are not being unfaithful or are not treating people as an object that you have just condemned as sinners because of ignorance...... Sleeping around is sabotaging your marriage. How many wives or husbands do you know who wouldn't be upset with a cheating spouse? Or even file for divorce because of an unfaithful spouse?
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
But that doesn't say "married". There are also places where it is illegal to marry for a variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the Western Christian understanding of marriage. Western Christianity is become the reigning style of Christendom in our age, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe in monogamy. Christian groups (notably a branch in India) that emerged outside the influence of the Roman Empire and before the Catholic church adopted Paul's writings, still practice polygamy today. It was the Pagan Roman Empire that legislated that a man could only be married to one woman at a time, hence Paul's admonishment that they obey the law of the Empire.
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Post by chuck on Jul 4, 2023 8:14:24 GMT -5
Dan do you understand the difference between moichao and porneia?. Adultery or moichao is marital unfaithfulness, the concept being sabotaging the unity or Echad between a husband and wife, adultery could be anything from being an abusive or lazy husband to having an affair with another women. Porneia is sexual immorality, and the concept behind that is basically treating another as an object. Hence the word porn, which is treating other people as a object for your own pleasure. Your suggestion that consensual sex outside of a married man and women is sin or adultery is not what the scriptures say at all. What scripture say's is dont sabotage the unity of your marriage and don't treat other people as objects for your own pleasure. There are millions of situations where couples are not married but also are not being unfaithful or are not treating people as an object that you have just condemned as sinners because of ignorance......
Sleeping around is sabotaging your marriage. How many wives or husbands do you know who wouldn't be upset with a cheating spouse? Or even file for divorce because of an unfaithful spouse?
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
That's just what I said didn't I. Seems like a strawman to me as my point was scripture does not say adultery is exclusively about two people having sex and it also does not say two consenting people having sex that are not married is by default a sin or adultery. Adultery is the breaking of unity and not two unmarried people having consensual sex like you said it was. Adultery could be committed without involving sex or anything sexual. You also said two unmarried people having sex was a sin which is also incorrect, the sin is treating someone like and object. This is pornia or fornication. This can happen within a marriage or outside of marriage, it also could happen whilst commiting adultery but it is most definitely not saying their sinners by default because they're not married to each other like you did. Understand the concepts Dan, too many good people have had their lives ruined from religious people heaping guilt on people all because they didn't know what they're talking about. It would help to also understand the debate during the day between Hillel and Shammai and who Jesus sided with in their interpretation of Torah. Matthew 5:32 [32]But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. To understand these concepts spoken in Matthew you need to go back to the Torah and understand Hillel and Shammai's yoke and why Jesus sided with one of them. When you understand these concepts you will see how fundamentally wrong religious people have been about divorce adultery and fornication over the centuries and then you will grasp how many lives have been affected by this ignorance.
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Post by Dan on Jul 4, 2023 11:14:49 GMT -5
Sleeping around is sabotaging your marriage. How many wives or husbands do you know who wouldn't be upset with a cheating spouse? Or even file for divorce because of an unfaithful spouse?
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
But that doesn't say "married". There are also places where it is illegal to marry for a variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the Western Christian understanding of marriage. Western Christianity is become the reigning style of Christendom in our age, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe in monogamy. Christian groups (notably a branch in India) that emerged outside the influence of the Roman Empire and before the Catholic church adopted Paul's writings, still practice polygamy today. It was the Pagan Roman Empire that legislated that a man could only be married to one woman at a time, hence Paul's admonishment that they obey the law of the Empire.
The RCC aside, I believe the bible is clear, so I interpret monogamy as law, plus there's no way I could handle more than one wife, so I'm biased! In the above verse, how can 2 people be twain together as one flesh when you throw another person into the mix? In John 2, Jesus attended a wedding, there was one bride & one bridegroom. "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away" (Deuteronomy 17:17). "He must be the husband of one wife" (Titus 1:6). Seems pretty evident that God paired us in two's from the beginning. "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife (singular), and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Corinthians 7:2). Even the Catholics get some things right, I'm convinced that Jesus & Paul were on the same page.
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Post by Dan on Jul 4, 2023 12:01:19 GMT -5
Sleeping around is sabotaging your marriage. How many wives or husbands do you know who wouldn't be upset with a cheating spouse? Or even file for divorce because of an unfaithful spouse?
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
That's just what I said didn't I. Seems like a strawman to me as my point was scripture does not say adultery is exclusively about two people having sex and it also does not say two consenting people having sex that are not married is by default a sin or adultery. Adultery is the breaking of unity and not two unmarried people having consensual sex like you said it was. Adultery could be committed without involving sex or anything sexual. You also said two unmarried people having sex was a sin which is also incorrect, the sin is treating someone like and object. This is pornia or fornication. This can happen within a marriage or outside of marriage, it also could happen whilst commiting adultery but it is most definitely not saying their sinners by default because they're not married to each other like you did. Understand the concepts Dan, too many good people have had their lives ruined from religious people heaping guilt on people all because they didn't know what they're talking about. It would help to also understand the debate during the day between Hillel and Shammai and who Jesus sided with in their interpretation of Torah. Matthew 5:32 [32]But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. To understand these concepts spoken in Matthew you need to go back to the Torah and understand Hillel and Shammai's yoke and why Jesus sided with one of them. When you understand these concepts you will see how fundamentally wrong religious people have been about divorce adultery and fornication over the centuries and then you will grasp how many lives have been affected by this ignorance.
Matthew 19:9 is not a concept; "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery".. That's seems pretty point blank to me, no interpretation is necessary, your twisting it to mean the opposite, but adultery is simply having sex with someone other than your spouse. The exemption Jesus gave was that if a divorce occurred due to a cheating spouse, in that case it was not adultery to remarry.
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" (1 Corinthians 6:18). "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Dozens of verses describe fornicating as a no no.
Its not religion that established the definition of adultery, but the bible. And I never implied that 2 unmarried people having sex was adultery, that is defined as fornicating.
Shammai and Hillel were two influential Jewish rabbis whose commentaries on the Torah shaped Jewish theology and philosophy. The fact is that Jesus presented the truth, and His agreement with either Shammai or Hillel was secondary and coincidental, imo his teaching cannot be seen as a defense of any rabbi. Shammai was a Pharisee who emphasized the need for temple rituals, and his interpretation is characterized as strict, literalist, and Israel-centric, but the new covenant changed all that. Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary of Shammai, was less concerned with temple worship. His commentary is seen as being more liberal, tolerant, and accepting of Gentiles. www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.html
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 4, 2023 18:46:44 GMT -5
But that doesn't say "married". There are also places where it is illegal to marry for a variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the Western Christian understanding of marriage. Western Christianity is become the reigning style of Christendom in our age, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe in monogamy. Christian groups (notably a branch in India) that emerged outside the influence of the Roman Empire and before the Catholic church adopted Paul's writings, still practice polygamy today. It was the Pagan Roman Empire that legislated that a man could only be married to one woman at a time, hence Paul's admonishment that they obey the law of the Empire. The RCC aside, I believe the bible is clear, so I interpret monogamy as law, plus there's no way I could handle more than one wife, so I'm biased! In the above verse, how can 2 people be twain together as one flesh when you throw another person into the mix? In John 2, Jesus attended a wedding, there was one bride & one bridegroom. "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away" (Deuteronomy 17:17). "He must be the husband of one wife" (Titus 1:6). Seems pretty evident that God paired us in two's from the beginning. "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife (singular), and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Corinthians 7:2). Even the Catholics get some things right, I'm convinced that Jesus & Paul were on the same page.
That's OK with me. Just saying that the Bible doesn't tell the whole story.
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Post by chuck on Jul 4, 2023 20:36:39 GMT -5
The RCC aside, I believe the bible is clear, so I interpret monogamy as law, plus there's no way I could handle more than one wife, so I'm biased! In the above verse, how can 2 people be twain together as one flesh when you throw another person into the mix? In John 2, Jesus attended a wedding, there was one bride & one bridegroom. "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away" (Deuteronomy 17:17). "He must be the husband of one wife" (Titus 1:6). Seems pretty evident that God paired us in two's from the beginning. "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife (singular), and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Corinthians 7:2). Even the Catholics get some things right, I'm convinced that Jesus & Paul were on the same page.
That's OK with me. Just saying that the Bible doesn't tell the whole story. Like most things to them it made sense without the whole story behind the story as they didn't need all the nuances explained to themselves and they also didn't need their own customs explained themselves.
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 5, 2023 1:20:29 GMT -5
That's OK with me. Just saying that the Bible doesn't tell the whole story. Like most things to them it made sense without the whole story behind the story as they didn't need all the nuances explained to themselves and they also didn't need their own customs explained themselves. I think one of the most interesting things I learned from my religious studies courses is that so many clergymen just simply reject all the scholarly knowledge about history/culture etc. because the religious congregation will hear none of it -- it's upsetting to them and thus not profitable for the preacher. The congregations largely want someone to justify their cultural biases so they can comfortably control their environment,
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 16:49:33 GMT -5
His standards are based on Gods, yours are on your own very limited subjective opinions... Well his God doesn't understand the concepts behind the words he is using to judge guilt and shame people who were doing nothing wrong in the first place. You don't have a clue...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 16:56:01 GMT -5
Sleeping around is sabotaging your marriage. How many wives or husbands do you know who wouldn't be upset with a cheating spouse? Or even file for divorce because of an unfaithful spouse?
"Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
But that doesn't say "married". There are also places where it is illegal to marry for a variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the Western Christian understanding of marriage. Western Christianity is become the reigning style of Christendom in our age, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe in monogamy. Christian groups (notably a branch in India) that emerged outside the influence of the Roman Empire and before the Catholic church adopted Paul's writings, still practice polygamy today. It was the Pagan Roman Empire that legislated that a man could only be married to one woman at a time, hence Paul's admonishment that they obey the law of the Empire. Revisionism won't work with the HS Spirit, he reveals what is in scriptures. It could explain a lot why you no longer get it...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 16:58:27 GMT -5
Dan do you understand the difference between moichao and porneia?. Adultery or moichao is marital unfaithfulness, the concept being sabotaging the unity or Echad between a husband and wife, adultery could be anything from being an abusive or lazy husband to having an affair with another women. Porneia is sexual immorality, and the concept behind that is basically treating another as an object. Hence the word porn, which is treating other people as a object for your own pleasure. Your suggestion that consensual sex outside of a married man and women is sin or adultery is not what the scriptures say at all. What scripture say's is dont sabotage the unity of your marriage and don't treat other people as objects for your own pleasure. There are millions of situations where couples are not married but also are not being unfaithful or are not treating people as an object that you have just condemned as sinners because of ignorance...... Incorrect chuckie...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 17:00:12 GMT -5
But that doesn't say "married". There are also places where it is illegal to marry for a variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the Western Christian understanding of marriage. Western Christianity is become the reigning style of Christendom in our age, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe in monogamy. Christian groups (notably a branch in India) that emerged outside the influence of the Roman Empire and before the Catholic church adopted Paul's writings, still practice polygamy today. It was the Pagan Roman Empire that legislated that a man could only be married to one woman at a time, hence Paul's admonishment that they obey the law of the Empire. The RCC aside, I believe the bible is clear, so I interpret monogamy as law, plus there's no way I could handle more than one wife, so I'm biased! In the above verse, how can 2 people be twain together as one flesh when you throw another person into the mix? In John 2, Jesus attended a wedding, there was one bride & one bridegroom. "Neither shall he multiply wives to himself, that his heart turn not away" (Deuteronomy 17:17). "He must be the husband of one wife" (Titus 1:6). Seems pretty evident that God paired us in two's from the beginning. "Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife (singular), and let every woman have her own husband" (1 Corinthians 7:2). Even the Catholics get some things right, I'm convinced that Jesus & Paul were on the same page.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 17:02:15 GMT -5
That's just what I said didn't I. Seems like a strawman to me as my point was scripture does not say adultery is exclusively about two people having sex and it also does not say two consenting people having sex that are not married is by default a sin or adultery. Adultery is the breaking of unity and not two unmarried people having consensual sex like you said it was. Adultery could be committed without involving sex or anything sexual. You also said two unmarried people having sex was a sin which is also incorrect, the sin is treating someone like and object. This is pornia or fornication. This can happen within a marriage or outside of marriage, it also could happen whilst commiting adultery but it is most definitely not saying their sinners by default because they're not married to each other like you did. Understand the concepts Dan, too many good people have had their lives ruined from religious people heaping guilt on people all because they didn't know what they're talking about. It would help to also understand the debate during the day between Hillel and Shammai and who Jesus sided with in their interpretation of Torah. Matthew 5:32 [32]But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery. To understand these concepts spoken in Matthew you need to go back to the Torah and understand Hillel and Shammai's yoke and why Jesus sided with one of them. When you understand these concepts you will see how fundamentally wrong religious people have been about divorce adultery and fornication over the centuries and then you will grasp how many lives have been affected by this ignorance. Matthew 19:9 is not a concept; "Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery".. That's seems pretty point blank to me, no interpretation is necessary, your twisting it to mean the opposite, but adultery is simply having sex with someone other than your spouse. The exemption Jesus gave was that if a divorce occurred due to a cheating spouse, in that case it was not adultery to remarry.
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" (1 Corinthians 6:18). "For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication" (1 Thessalonians 4:3). Dozens of verses describe fornicating as a no no.
Its not religion that established the definition of adultery, but the bible. And I never implied that 2 unmarried people having sex was adultery, that is defined as fornicating.
Shammai and Hillel were two influential Jewish rabbis whose commentaries on the Torah shaped Jewish theology and philosophy. The fact is that Jesus presented the truth, and His agreement with either Shammai or Hillel was secondary and coincidental, imo his teaching cannot be seen as a defense of any rabbi. Shammai was a Pharisee who emphasized the need for temple rituals, and his interpretation is characterized as strict, literalist, and Israel-centric, but the new covenant changed all that. Rabbi Hillel, a contemporary of Shammai, was less concerned with temple worship. His commentary is seen as being more liberal, tolerant, and accepting of Gentiles. www.gotquestions.org/Shammaite-vs-Hillelite.htmlYou are way good at understanding brother keep'em coming!!!
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 17:05:53 GMT -5
Exactly. I think this spirit doctrine angle is much ado really, over thinking. Its just a euphemism for fitting in, obedience, compliance, conformity, not making waves. This is more important than anything else really. It greases the wheels. Enables the whole thing to keep rolling along. It gets you promoted. It proves you are right with god. Being right with the workers is more important than being right with god. But to the workers it is one and the same. Its a cult in other words. I have always resisted referring to the fellowship as a cult but I have to admit that system-worship is a cult. That's not to say everyone in the fellowship is in a cult. It depends whether your focus is a kingdom of men or God enthroned within you. How do you separate the two though? Just because some in the group aren't system worshipers, a large number of them are. So that would make it a cult mentality that many people have. And, some of you just happen to not agree with the cult mentality. Are you really part of the group if you don't follow what a majority of the workers believe?
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Post by snow on Jul 5, 2023 17:15:32 GMT -5
Like most things to them it made sense without the whole story behind the story as they didn't need all the nuances explained to themselves and they also didn't need their own customs explained themselves. I think one of the most interesting things I learned from my religious studies courses is that so many clergymen just simply reject all the scholarly knowledge about history/culture etc. because the religious congregation will hear none of it -- it's upsetting to them and thus not profitable for the preacher. The congregations largely want someone to justify their cultural biases so they can comfortably control their environment, So true. When I mention parts of the bible to my sisters they have never heard of them before. That's because they aren't lovey dovey and aren't profitable for a preacher to preach to his congregation. They cherry pick what they preach. There is a lot of hard stuff in the bible that they never even know is there because they just listen to what the preacher chooses to preach to them. Not all are like that of course, but I have found many are like that.
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2023 19:03:43 GMT -5
I have always resisted referring to the fellowship as a cult but I have to admit that system-worship is a cult. That's not to say everyone in the fellowship is in a cult. It depends whether your focus is a kingdom of men or God enthroned within you. How do you separate the two though? Just because some in the group aren't system worshipers, a large number of them are. So that would make it a cult mentality that many people have. And, some of you just happen to not agree with the cult mentality. Are you really part of the group if you don't follow what a majority of the workers believe? You'll find the current responses to the 2x2-me-too crisis interesting and the cultishness of the fellowship is being thoroughly discredited. I'm seeing that a lot of the friends don't have the cult mentality. System worshippers are given an opportunity to examine their faith these days. Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire.
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Post by verna on Jul 5, 2023 21:15:14 GMT -5
How do you separate the two though? Just because some in the group aren't system worshipers, a large number of them are. So that would make it a cult mentality that many people have. And, some of you just happen to not agree with the cult mentality. Are you really part of the group if you don't follow what a majority of the workers believe? You'll find the current responses to the 2x2-me-too crisis interesting and the cultishness of the fellowship is being thoroughly discredited. I'm seeing that a lot of the friends don't have the cult mentality. System worshippers are given an opportunity to examine their faith these days. Matthew 3:12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor and will gather his wheat into the granary, but the chaff he will burn with unquenchable fire. Fixit I know you’re on the other end of the world and it’s probably not convention time there but if it was would you be going?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2023 0:49:27 GMT -5
But that doesn't say "married". There are also places where it is illegal to marry for a variety of reasons that have nothing whatever to do with the Western Christian understanding of marriage. Western Christianity is become the reigning style of Christendom in our age, but that doesn't mean that all Christians believe in monogamy. Christian groups (notably a branch in India) that emerged outside the influence of the Roman Empire and before the Catholic church adopted Paul's writings, still practice polygamy today. It was the Pagan Roman Empire that legislated that a man could only be married to one woman at a time, hence Paul's admonishment that they obey the law of the Empire. Revisionism won't work with the HS Spirit, he reveals what is in scriptures. It could explain a lot why you no longer get it... What makes you think I ever had IT, whatever IT is?
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Post by BobWilliston on Jul 6, 2023 0:56:46 GMT -5
I have always resisted referring to the fellowship as a cult but I have to admit that system-worship is a cult. That's not to say everyone in the fellowship is in a cult. It depends whether your focus is a kingdom of men or God enthroned within you. How do you separate the two though? Just because some in the group aren't system worshipers, a large number of them are. So that would make it a cult mentality that many people have. And, some of you just happen to not agree with the cult mentality. Are you really part of the group if you don't follow what a majority of the workers believe? I wasn't very old when I came to recognize the two kinds of people in the 2x2's. I knew I wasn't a sycophant and the fact that some thought I should be annoyed me a lot because it was really the stupid things they believed that identified them for me.
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