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Post by xna on Apr 30, 2015 12:07:31 GMT -5
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Post by maryhig on Apr 30, 2015 12:16:12 GMT -5
Beautiful. Thank you so much matisse Your posts resonate on so many levels. A little bit like you I question many things. It's part of my nature too and I wonder where eventually my questions might potentially lead. So may I ask? Have you left behind all belief in a God or just the personal God of Christianity? And if the answer is that you don't believe in any version of God did this disbelief transpire at the same time or a different point in time to when you stopped believing in the personal God of Christianity? Ellie, thank you for your feedback... I think to answer your first question, I will just say that after I stopped going to meetings but before my "tipping point", there were nights I sat bolt upright in a cold sweat, terrified that I might be making a big mistake. Since losing my faith, now 25+ years ago, I have not had one episode of cold-sweat terror around the idea of a judging and punishing god. I do not believe in the existence of an interactive, personal, "paranormal" god of any kind. I believe any positive aspects of "God" that I "experienced" in my youth are a natural part of being human that were projected on an idea of "God". I think at some level I knew this the moment I lost my faith...on other levels, there was a process that took some time. I watched the interview series between Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers, " The Power of Myth" Despite the seriously ugly, vintage 1970's polyester ties and jackets....with maybe even a leisure suit in there somewhere, I found the series enormously helpful for putting the beliefs I was brought up with into context with belief traditions around the world and across time. I am inclined to reserve the word "god" for the idea of the interactive personal god, like the Christian God. Anything other I expect would be better described using mathematics or physics. I found after losing my faith that I had to examine a lot of things that I previously had "pat answers" for. Like grappling with the idea that this life is all that we get, and how to make peace with this and peace with the idea that when loved ones die, the goodbye is final. If there is no God with a plan for my life, then what is life about? If there is no God to trust with His Perfect Plan, then how does one relate to the existence of hunger and poverty and racism and various forms of injustice and suffering in the world? ...to name a few. I have no regrets about losing the "pat answers" and having to face questions like this head-on and to the best of my ability. I hope this is helpful....please do not hesitate to ask, publicly or privately. Hiya again Matisse can I ask you one more thing, so do you completely believe that there is no God? Or that maybe the could be one, because in my heart I feel without proof it would be hard to say definitely no? I'm still pondering on your post, it's been on my mind. I find it hard to understand how people can know someone all their life and just turn the back on them! I can't get my head around how that's godly at all. No matter what they've done. Because God is our judge not man. In fact it's quite upsetting! I've never heard of this before I came on here! I am going to write one of the things that happened to me when I come home later. I'll be being totally honest. And you can take it as you will, and ask any questions. I would write it now but don't have time, so I'll write it later! If that's ok
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Post by snow on Apr 30, 2015 12:41:47 GMT -5
That's part of the problem though. If you believe in division and live what you believe. Part of what problem? "How can two walk together except they be agreed?" It is certainly possible and should be the goal in life, being able to walk and talk with those who you don't share a belief. It's called learning to tolerate other points of view. I could sit down face to face with people on here and I'm sure we'd find things in common and have a good talk and enjoy ourselves. I don't believe in God but have creationist Baptist relatives and we manage just fine finding things to talk about and share without having to share each other's beliefs. Love and tolerance should be the goal of all of humanity, trying to find common ground, not finding ways to divide humanity. Sure it's challenging sometimes and I know I get frustrated as I'm sure they do too. But bottom line, it's important because if we live in a 'us vs them' world or mentality, that's exactly what we will experience.
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Post by snow on Apr 30, 2015 12:47:10 GMT -5
Ellie, thank you for your feedback... I think to answer your first question, I will just say that after I stopped going to meetings but before my "tipping point", there were nights I sat bolt upright in a cold sweat, terrified that I might be making a big mistake. Since losing my faith, now 25+ years ago, I have not had one episode of cold-sweat terror around the idea of a judging and punishing god. I do not believe in the existence of an interactive, personal, "paranormal" god of any kind. I believe any positive aspects of "God" that I "experienced" in my youth are a natural part of being human that were projected on an idea of "God". I think at some level I knew this the moment I lost my faith...on other levels, there was a process that took some time. I watched the interview series between Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers, " The Power of Myth" Despite the seriously ugly, vintage 1970's polyester ties and jackets....with maybe even a leisure suit in there somewhere, I found the series enormously helpful for putting the beliefs I was brought up with into context with belief traditions around the world and across time. I am inclined to reserve the word "god" for the idea of the interactive personal god, like the Christian God. Anything other I expect would be better described using mathematics or physics. I found after losing my faith that I had to examine a lot of things that I previously had "pat answers" for. Like grappling with the idea that this life is all that we get, and how to make peace with this and peace with the idea that when loved ones die, the goodbye is final. If there is no God with a plan for my life, then what is life about? If there is no God to trust with His Perfect Plan, then how does one relate to the existence of hunger and poverty and racism and various forms of injustice and suffering in the world? ...to name a few. I have no regrets about losing the "pat answers" and having to face questions like this head-on and to the best of my ability. I hope this is helpful....please do not hesitate to ask, publicly or privately. Hiya again Matisse can I ask you one more thing, so do you completely believe that there is no God? Or that maybe the could be one, because in my heart I feel without proof it would be hard to say definitely no? I'm still pondering on your post, it's been on my mind. I find it hard to understand how people can know someone all their life and just turn the back on them! I can't get my head around how that's godly at all. No matter what they've done. Because God is our judge not man. In fact it's quite upsetting! I've never heard of this before I came on here! I am going to write one of the things that happened to me when I come home later. I'll be being totally honest. And you can take it as you will, and ask any questions. I would write it now but don't have time, so I'll write it later! If that's ok Maryhig, that is what happened for me as well, I just can not believe anymore that there is a God. Once it happens there is no going back because you realize how you processed things and the reasons for doing it in that way. It isn't an easy thing to have happen. It scared me when it did. I was younger than Matisse and still a minor living at home and forced to attend meetings and live according to their rules. So I had a lot of people very adamant and focused on quilting me back into the 'fold'. However, it led to me researching religion, it's history and the various Gods and religious beliefs. It helped me understand and in that understanding came a peace I never had when I believed in a God. Many of us on here that no longer believe in God had a similar yet different experience. It was traumatic but in the end was so worth the journey because it definitely is a journey.
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Post by matisse on Apr 30, 2015 12:47:39 GMT -5
Ellie, thank you for your feedback... I think to answer your first question, I will just say that after I stopped going to meetings but before my "tipping point", there were nights I sat bolt upright in a cold sweat, terrified that I might be making a big mistake. Since losing my faith, now 25+ years ago, I have not had one episode of cold-sweat terror around the idea of a judging and punishing god. I do not believe in the existence of an interactive, personal, "paranormal" god of any kind. I believe any positive aspects of "God" that I "experienced" in my youth are a natural part of being human that were projected on an idea of "God". I think at some level I knew this the moment I lost my faith...on other levels, there was a process that took some time. I watched the interview series between Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers, " The Power of Myth" Despite the seriously ugly, vintage 1970's polyester ties and jackets....with maybe even a leisure suit in there somewhere, I found the series enormously helpful for putting the beliefs I was brought up with into context with belief traditions around the world and across time. I am inclined to reserve the word "god" for the idea of the interactive personal god, like the Christian God. Anything other I expect would be better described using mathematics or physics. I found after losing my faith that I had to examine a lot of things that I previously had "pat answers" for. Like grappling with the idea that this life is all that we get, and how to make peace with this and peace with the idea that when loved ones die, the goodbye is final. If there is no God with a plan for my life, then what is life about? If there is no God to trust with His Perfect Plan, then how does one relate to the existence of hunger and poverty and racism and various forms of injustice and suffering in the world? ...to name a few. I have no regrets about losing the "pat answers" and having to face questions like this head-on and to the best of my ability. I hope this is helpful....please do not hesitate to ask, publicly or privately. Hiya again :) Matisse can I ask you one more thing, so do you completely believe that there is no God? Or that maybe the could be one, because in my heart I feel without proof it would be hard to say definitely no? I'm still pondering on your post, it's been on my mind. I find it hard to understand how people can know someone all their life and just turn the back on them! I can't get my head around how that's godly at all. No matter what they've done. Because God is our judge not man. In fact it's quite upsetting! I've never heard of this before I came on here! I am going to write one of the things that happened to me when I come home later. I'll be being totally honest. And you can take it as you will, and ask any questions. I would write it now but don't have time, so I'll write it later! If that's ok :) Hiya maryh :) I cannot prove anything. I feel completely comfortable, however, living my life with the working assumption that there is no personal, interactive god out there. Do you believe in the existence and power of Zeus, king of the Greek gods? At one point in time, many people did. I will look forward to reading your experience whenever you have a chance to write.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 13:12:46 GMT -5
Part of what problem? "How can two walk together except they be agreed?" It is certainly possible and should be the goal in life, being able to walk and talk with those who you don't share a belief. It's called learning to tolerate other points of view. I could sit down face to face with people on here and I'm sure we'd find things in common and have a good talk and enjoy ourselves. I don't believe in God but have creationist Baptist relatives and we manage just fine finding things to talk about and share without having to share each other's beliefs. Love and tolerance should be the goal of all of humanity, trying to find common ground, not finding ways to divide humanity. Sure it's challenging sometimes and I know I get frustrated as I'm sure they do too. But bottom line, it's important because if we live in a 'us vs them' world or mentality, that's exactly what we will experience. Sure, we can get on with all sorts of people and find something to talk about, but the people I'm closest to are the people who share the same beliefs. It's not that we have an 'us vs them' mentality, but a certain amount of separation is inevitable between people who don't enjoy the same things, and don't feel comfortable going to the same places.
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hberry
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Post by hberry on Apr 30, 2015 13:37:45 GMT -5
A quick question to all who say they practice what thy preach. Would you admit that you will stand up for Jesus come what may if you knew that if you made that admission you would immediately get your head chopped off? Would you be a martyr for the Gospel sake? Only honest answers from the heart please. Isn't the answer to this something all believers need to have settled in their heart? Christians have died for their faith down through the ages, sometimes at the hands of fellow Christians, unfortunately. And horribly so. Have you watched or heard any of the Dispatches from the Front videos? I recommend it. www.dispatchesfromthefront.org/
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 13:48:46 GMT -5
I find it hard to understand how people can know someone all their life and just turn the back on them! I can't get my head around how that's godly at all. I think you may be trying to get your head around a misunderstanding here. Perhaps the issue you should really be grappling with is how people can cease believing in a God they have believed in all their lives. The idea that people "just turn their back on" God is merely your interpretation of what happens and is based on your perspective as a sincere believer in God. However there are other perspectives and other explanations which are often very different and much more complex than the believer appears able or willing to comprehend. Indeed the perspective of the believer often appears to me to be a very narrow one. Having a belief may provider the believer with explanations which satisfy the believer but they aren't necessarily the only explanations nor the correct ones. That said, the journey from belief to unbelief is an interesting one and there are many here who have abandoned their belief in the Christian God and have lived to tell the tale. However there is a remarkable lack of understanding about unbelief around here. Any quest to understand more about unbelief is therefore to be welcomed. Matt10
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Post by snow on Apr 30, 2015 14:10:15 GMT -5
It is certainly possible and should be the goal in life, being able to walk and talk with those who you don't share a belief. It's called learning to tolerate other points of view. I could sit down face to face with people on here and I'm sure we'd find things in common and have a good talk and enjoy ourselves. I don't believe in God but have creationist Baptist relatives and we manage just fine finding things to talk about and share without having to share each other's beliefs. Love and tolerance should be the goal of all of humanity, trying to find common ground, not finding ways to divide humanity. Sure it's challenging sometimes and I know I get frustrated as I'm sure they do too. But bottom line, it's important because if we live in a 'us vs them' world or mentality, that's exactly what we will experience. Sure, we can get on with all sorts of people and find something to talk about, but the people I'm closest to are the people who share the same beliefs. It's not that we have an 'us vs them' mentality, but a certain amount of separation is inevitable between people who don't enjoy the same things, and don't feel comfortable going to the same places. Yes, I think I would agree with that. When we have more in common we do naturally gravitate together. I think the key to making this world a better place though is to learn how to find common ground. I think it's hard for those who are somewhat fanatic about their beliefs to do that though. An example might be the folks from Westboro Church welcoming gays into their congregation?
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 30, 2015 14:56:17 GMT -5
I find it hard to understand how people can know someone all their life and just turn the back on them! I can't get my head around how that's godly at all. I think you may be trying to get your head around a misunderstanding here. Perhaps the issue you should really be grappling with is how people can cease believing in a God they have believed in all their lives. The idea that people "just turn their back on" God is merely your interpretation of what happens and is based on your perspective as a sincere believer in God. However there are other perspectives and other explanations which are often very different and much more complex than the believer appears able or willing to comprehend. Indeed the perspective of the believer often appears to me to be a very narrow one. Having a belief may provider the believer with explanations which satisfy the believer but they aren't necessarily the only explanations nor the correct ones. That said, the journey from belief to unbelief is an interesting one and there are many here who have abandoned their belief in the Christian God and have lived to tell the tale. However there is a remarkable lack of understanding about unbelief around here. Any quest to understand more about unbelief is therefore to be welcomed. Matt10 I think we all take the journey from "belief to unbelief" over and over again in so many contexts and on so many levels. Another way to describe it might be simply "growing up". And then there's the problem of whose version of the "Christian God" did you abandon your belief in? I abandoned my belief in many people's version of the "Christian God" long before I left 2X2ism. And that was NOT my reason for leaving. I know a number of current members who do not conceptualize God much differently than I do. One of these members, in discussion over whether Jesus ever really existed, stated it made no difference to her whether he did or did not - that it did nothing to negate her personal experience. I get that. I really get that. Many people may not. I've watched other people, in other religious communities, make a journey of understanding that is uniquely personal to them. I have watched members of their former community "pull out all stops" at marginalizing them. And they have succeeded - but many of these people have been absorbed into other communities that are more like-minded. In the end, I suspect that discussing belief or unbelief or anyone's ideas of "God" is really not all that significant. Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey: “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path. Where there is a way or path, it is someone else's path. You are not on your own path. If you follow someone else's way, you are not going to realize your potential.”
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Post by maryhig on Apr 30, 2015 16:25:24 GMT -5
I think you may be trying to get your head around a misunderstanding here. Perhaps the issue you should really be grappling with is how people can cease believing in a God they have believed in all their lives. The idea that people "just turn their back on" God is merely your interpretation of what happens and is based on your perspective as a sincere believer in God. However there are other perspectives and other explanations which are often very different and much more complex than the believer appears able or willing to comprehend. Indeed the perspective of the believer often appears to me to be a very narrow one. Having a belief may provider the believer with explanations which satisfy the believer but they aren't necessarily the only explanations nor the correct ones. That said, the journey from belief to unbelief is an interesting one and there are many here who have abandoned their belief in the Christian God and have lived to tell the tale. However there is a remarkable lack of understanding about unbelief around here. Any quest to understand more about unbelief is therefore to be welcomed. Matt10 I think we all take the journey from "belief to unbelief" over and over again in so many contexts and on so many levels. Another way to describe it might be simply "growing up". And then there's the problem of whose version of the "Christian God" did you abandon your belief in? I abandoned my belief in many people's version of the "Christian God" long before I left 2X2ism. And that was NOT my reason for leaving. I know a number of current members who do not conceptualize God much differently than I do. One of these members, in discussion over whether Jesus ever really existed, stated it made no difference to her whether he did or did not - that it did nothing to negate her personal experience. I get that. I really get that. Many people may not. I've watched other people, in other religious communities, make a journey of understanding that is uniquely personal to them. I have watched members of their former community "pull out all stops" at marginalizing them. And they have succeeded - but many of these people have been absorbed into other communities that are more like-minded. In the end, I suspect that discussing belief or unbelief or anyone's ideas of "God" is really not all that significant. Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey: “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path. Where there is a way or path, it is someone else's path. You are not on your own path. If you follow someone else's way, you are not going to realize your potential.” Funny you saying that about a path, and it's amazing some of the different ways people see things. Someone in the meeting the other night said they were up a mountain close to home with her husband. They got lost and he saw a path. He said to her, if we follow this path it will lead us toward home. And she saw that the path had been used many times by many others. She saw it was like the people of God. And if we follow the path that they have taken, it will take us home. She saw that they had found the way to God, and if we follow their examples, so will we!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2015 23:57:08 GMT -5
humanity divides itself even without someone to follow true, so why make it worse by following someone who blatantly supports division? because He will give me life
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Post by findingtruth on May 1, 2015 0:09:05 GMT -5
I think you may be trying to get your head around a misunderstanding here. Perhaps the issue you should really be grappling with is how people can cease believing in a God they have believed in all their lives. The idea that people "just turn their back on" God is merely your interpretation of what happens and is based on your perspective as a sincere believer in God. However there are other perspectives and other explanations which are often very different and much more complex than the believer appears able or willing to comprehend. Indeed the perspective of the believer often appears to me to be a very narrow one. Having a belief may provider the believer with explanations which satisfy the believer but they aren't necessarily the only explanations nor the correct ones. That said, the journey from belief to unbelief is an interesting one and there are many here who have abandoned their belief in the Christian God and have lived to tell the tale. However there is a remarkable lack of understanding about unbelief around here. Any quest to understand more about unbelief is therefore to be welcomed. Matt10 I think we all take the journey from "belief to unbelief" over and over again in so many contexts and on so many levels. Another way to describe it might be simply "growing up". And then there's the problem of whose version of the "Christian God" did you abandon your belief in? I abandoned my belief in many people's version of the "Christian God" long before I left 2X2ism. And that was NOT my reason for leaving. I know a number of current members who do not conceptualize God much differently than I do. One of these members, in discussion over whether Jesus ever really existed, stated it made no difference to her whether he did or did not - that it did nothing to negate her personal experience. I get that. I really get that. Many people may not. I've watched other people, in other religious communities, make a journey of understanding that is uniquely personal to them. I have watched members of their former community "pull out all stops" at marginalizing them. And they have succeeded - but many of these people have been absorbed into other communities that are more like-minded. In the end, I suspect that discussing belief or unbelief or anyone's ideas of "God" is really not all that significant. Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey: “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path. Where there is a way or path, it is someone else's path. You are not on your own path. If you follow someone else's way, you are not going to realize your potential.” Sharon, I find your post very interesting. Perhaps the most difficult part of any transition (or journey) is attempting to determine "what" we believe or what we no longer believe in. In my own personal experience I find myself questioning over and over how ANYONE can really define what "TRUTH" is. There are so few things we can actually prove so we're left to make assumptions based on personal experience, personal preference and personal opinions.
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 0:13:15 GMT -5
true, so why make it worse by following someone who blatantly supports division? because He will give me life Well, I guess that tells why some people will do just about anything as long as they think that they will get something in return!
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 0:16:47 GMT -5
because He will give me life Well, I guess that tells why some people will do just about anything as long as they think that they will get something in return!
yup
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Post by dmmichgood on May 1, 2015 3:41:21 GMT -5
Well, I guess that tells why some people will do just about anything as long as they think that they will get something in return!
yup S o you say, virgo," that the reason that you are a Christian is because you get something out of it?
That the reason you are a Christian is not in order to help your fellow men along life's journey?
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 3:46:20 GMT -5
S o you say, virgo," that the reason that you are a Christian is because you get something out of it?
That the reason you are a Christian is not in order to help your fellow men along life's journey?
i am because God called me and i have learned to love Him with that comes love for fellow man, if i don't have that love for fellow man i don't have love for God
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 5:32:16 GMT -5
I think you may be trying to get your head around a misunderstanding here. Perhaps the issue you should really be grappling with is how people can cease believing in a God they have believed in all their lives. The idea that people "just turn their back on" God is merely your interpretation of what happens and is based on your perspective as a sincere believer in God. However there are other perspectives and other explanations which are often very different and much more complex than the believer appears able or willing to comprehend. Indeed the perspective of the believer often appears to me to be a very narrow one. Having a belief may provider the believer with explanations which satisfy the believer but they aren't necessarily the only explanations nor the correct ones. That said, the journey from belief to unbelief is an interesting one and there are many here who have abandoned their belief in the Christian God and have lived to tell the tale. However there is a remarkable lack of understanding about unbelief around here. Any quest to understand more about unbelief is therefore to be welcomed. Matt10 I think we all take the journey from "belief to unbelief" over and over again in so many contexts and on so many levels. Another way to describe it might be simply "growing up". And then there's the problem of whose version of the "Christian God" did you abandon your belief in? I abandoned my belief in many people's version of the "Christian God" long before I left 2X2ism. And that was NOT my reason for leaving. I know a number of current members who do not conceptualize God much differently than I do. One of these members, in discussion over whether Jesus ever really existed, stated it made no difference to her whether he did or did not - that it did nothing to negate her personal experience. I get that. I really get that. Many people may not. I've watched other people, in other religious communities, make a journey of understanding that is uniquely personal to them. I have watched members of their former community "pull out all stops" at marginalizing them. And they have succeeded - but many of these people have been absorbed into other communities that are more like-minded. In the end, I suspect that discussing belief or unbelief or anyone's ideas of "God" is really not all that significant. Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey: “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path. Where there is a way or path, it is someone else's path. You are not on your own path. If you follow someone else's way, you are not going to realize your potential.” I think you may be discussing a slightly different issue here. The journey from belief in the Christian God (our own version) to unbelief (in the Christian God) is one which a number of people have referred to here (although perhaps not in those terms). This is not about leaving 2x2ism, it is about losing one's belief in God. I don't really see the version as a problem. Most here will have believed in the biblical version of the Christian God with a heavy 2x2 slant, the soul saving, telly frowning, day of judgement judging, meeting attendance noting one. The version is to a large extent irrelevant, whether its the 2x2 one or the catholic one; the journey is from a place where the entity which we know and understand as God plays a significant role in our lives to a place where He/it doesn't. It may not be a significant topic for discussion but for me it is an interesting one, particularly for those believers who want to understand, as Maryhig puts it, how one can move from a position where one has had a belief in God for many years to a position where, as she puts it, one turns their back on Him. Regards Matt10
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2015 6:17:41 GMT -5
I think we all take the journey from "belief to unbelief" over and over again in so many contexts and on so many levels. Another way to describe it might be simply "growing up". And then there's the problem of whose version of the "Christian God" did you abandon your belief in? I abandoned my belief in many people's version of the "Christian God" long before I left 2X2ism. And that was NOT my reason for leaving. I know a number of current members who do not conceptualize God much differently than I do. One of these members, in discussion over whether Jesus ever really existed, stated it made no difference to her whether he did or did not - that it did nothing to negate her personal experience. I get that. I really get that. Many people may not. I've watched other people, in other religious communities, make a journey of understanding that is uniquely personal to them. I have watched members of their former community "pull out all stops" at marginalizing them. And they have succeeded - but many of these people have been absorbed into other communities that are more like-minded. In the end, I suspect that discussing belief or unbelief or anyone's ideas of "God" is really not all that significant. Joseph Campbell, The Hero's Journey: “You enter the forest at the darkest point, where there is no path. Where there is a way or path, it is someone else's path. You are not on your own path. If you follow someone else's way, you are not going to realize your potential.” Sharon, I find your post very interesting. Perhaps the most difficult part of any transition (or journey) is attempting to determine "what" we believe or what we no longer believe in. In my own personal experience I find myself questioning over and over how ANYONE can really define what "TRUTH" is. There are so few things we can actually prove so we're left to make assumptions based on personal experience, personal preference and personal opinions. I'd like to think I could make a decent effort at defining what it was I believed in when I had a belief and consequently what I no longer believe in now that I have made the journey from belief to unbelief. Matt10
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Post by emy on May 1, 2015 16:34:11 GMT -5
S o you say, virgo," that the reason that you are a Christian is because you get something out of it?
That the reason you are a Christian is not in order to help your fellow men along life's journey?
Surely they are not mutually exclusive?
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Post by bubbles on May 2, 2015 0:47:16 GMT -5
humanity divides itself even without someone to follow true, so why make it worse by following someone who blatantly supports division? On a forum like this we are a mixed multitude. In real life I have more atheist agnostic friends than christians. I know if I wanted to make a lot of friends quickly all I need to do is attend a local church. The christians I am close to is one plus family. There is no division between me the agnostics and atheists. I just am very careful what I discuss relating to religion. They all love me anyway. Haha they would have some choice words to use if I did. For me. Its important I love and accept them. I leave them to god.
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Post by bubbles on May 2, 2015 0:49:13 GMT -5
I apologize for the font stuff up in that last post..its my phone and I dont know how to rectify it. True..
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Post by ellie on May 2, 2015 5:35:02 GMT -5
Beautiful. Thank you so much matisse Your posts resonate on so many levels. A little bit like you I question many things. It's part of my nature too and I wonder where eventually my questions might potentially lead. So may I ask? Have you left behind all belief in a God or just the personal God of Christianity? And if the answer is that you don't believe in any version of God did this disbelief transpire at the same time or a different point in time to when you stopped believing in the personal God of Christianity? Ellie, thank you for your feedback... I think to answer your first question, I will just say that after I stopped going to meetings but before my "tipping point", there were nights I sat bolt upright in a cold sweat, terrified that I might be making a big mistake. Since losing my faith, now 25+ years ago, I have not had one episode of cold-sweat terror around the idea of a judging and punishing god. I do not believe in the existence of an interactive, personal, "paranormal" god of any kind. I believe any positive aspects of "God" that I "experienced" in my youth are a natural part of being human that were projected on an idea of "God". I think at some level I knew this the moment I lost my faith...on other levels, there was a process that took some time. I watched the interview series between Joseph Campbell and Bill Moyers, " The Power of Myth" Despite the seriously ugly, vintage 1970's polyester ties and jackets....with maybe even a leisure suit in there somewhere, I found the series enormously helpful for putting the beliefs I was brought up with into context with belief traditions around the world and across time. I am inclined to reserve the word "god" for the idea of the interactive personal god, like the Christian God. Anything other I expect would be better described using mathematics or physics. I found after losing my faith that I had to examine a lot of things that I previously had "pat answers" for. Like grappling with the idea that this life is all that we get, and how to make peace with this and peace with the idea that when loved ones die, the goodbye is final. If there is no God with a plan for my life, then what is life about? If there is no God to trust with His Perfect Plan, then how does one relate to the existence of hunger and poverty and racism and various forms of injustice and suffering in the world? ...to name a few. I have no regrets about losing the "pat answers" and having to face questions like this head-on and to the best of my ability. I hope this is helpful....please do not hesitate to ask, publicly or privately. Much appreciated that is helpful . I am not sure where my journey of discovery will lead me but I am glad for forums and Google generally that’s for sure!! I am about to put some of my story into words but may still PM you with a question or two sometime off in the future assuming that’s okay? I don’t remember ever truly believing in a God that physically intervened in the world. Ultimately I think that there is too much suffering in human existence for me to be able to believe in that version of God. So I believed in a God who inspired personal strength through means such as the bible, preaching and prayer. Recently I became more engaged in the meetings then I had been previously. Seeing as I was investing time in these things I proceeded to spend some time finding out a bit about mainstream Christian beliefs. Personally I felt a deal of disagreement with Christian exclusivity and intolerance. I found that I identified more with progressive Christian thought and values than traditional views. I understood God as loving and I couldn't really imagine not believing in a version of God or ever shifting towards disbelief. Now I also realised from a general religious knowledge point of view I was (still am) incredibly sheltered. As far as Christian history goes I've barely touched the tip of the iceberg, but I've been stunned by the enormous degree of similarity between ancient religions and Christianity and the degree of what I consider deception (deliberate or unintentional) perpetuated by Christianity. I would say I have lost my religious innocence. Along with nature, art, music, poetry and other writings I still appreciate the bible as inspirational. I once was, however, certain that these things in which I experience awe, wonder and peace pointed to the existence of a God. Today I simply don’t know.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 6:34:18 GMT -5
I apologize for the font stuff up in that last post..its my phone and I dont know how to rectify it. True.. That is because the devil took control, my oh my, he is so clever/cunning!!
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Post by bubbles on May 2, 2015 6:45:29 GMT -5
I apologize for the font stuff up in that last post..its my phone and I dont know how to rectify it. True.. That is because the devil took control, my oh my, he is so clevelor/cunning!! Lol..and just maybe I dont know my ph well enough. Strike they only give me 2 yrs to learn the features. Then they let it die so I have to purchase a new model!!
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2015 6:50:35 GMT -5
That is because the devil took control, my oh my, he is so clevelor/cunning!! Lol..and just maybe I dont know my ph well enough. Strike they only give me 2 yrs to learn the features. Then they let it die so I have to purchase a new model!! I am not very good with modern technology, when folks talk to me about a tablet I immediate think about pills.
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Post by findingtruth on May 2, 2015 9:08:24 GMT -5
bubbles, at least you're adventurous enough to try to post from a phone. lol The thought of trying that baffles me! Partaker, I remember (and embrace) the simple life when the possibility of having a simple computer in our home seemed ridiculous. And to think we now have more power in the palm of our hand than a computer that filled a large room just 50 years ago....wow!
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Post by findingtruth on May 2, 2015 9:34:11 GMT -5
Much appreciated that is helpful . I am not sure where my journey of discovery will lead me but I am glad for forums and Google generally that’s for sure!! I am about to put some of my story into words but may still PM you with a question or two sometime off in the future assuming that’s okay? I don’t remember ever truly believing in a God that physically intervened in the world. Ultimately I think that there is too much suffering in human existence for me to be able to believe in that version of God. So I believed in a God who inspired personal strength through means such as the bible, preaching and prayer. Recently I became more engaged in the meetings then I had been previously. Seeing as I was investing time in these things I proceeded to spend some time finding out a bit about mainstream Christian beliefs. Personally I felt a deal of disagreement with Christian exclusivity and intolerance. I found that I identified more with progressive Christian thought and values than traditional views. I understood God as loving and I couldn't really imagine not believing in a version of God or ever shifting towards disbelief. Now I also realised from a general religious knowledge point of view I was (still am) incredibly sheltered. As far as Christian history goes I've barely touched the tip of the iceberg, but I've been stunned by the enormous degree of similarity between ancient religions and Christianity and the degree of what I consider deception (deliberate or unintentional) perpetuated by Christianity. I would say I have lost my religious innocence. Along with nature, art, music, poetry and other writings I still appreciate the bible as inspirational. I once was, however, certain that these things in which I experience awe, wonder and peace pointed to the existence of a God. Today I simply don’t know. My own personal journey has been confusing for me as well. It's taken a lot of reflection on my past belief system, questions on "why" I believed as I did. For me, Matisse has pretty well summed it up by expressing her own fears about challenging her beliefs. To a point we live in a fear driven world and it's likely a result of not having the answers to our own questions of why we're here, why anything exists at all, what/who is responsible for all of this and a host of other unanswered questions. We constantly (or at least I did) look for answers from other individuals with their own opinions. This constant struggle to come up with answers has left me feeling empty, ignorant and at times angry. At this point (my viewpoint changes as I go) I have concluded that the nature of humanity is to find a social group that gives us a warm fuzzy security blanket feeling. What we call "similar interests" religiously speaking are nothing more than mutual PERSONAL needs to make us believe we're OK and on the right path in life.
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