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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 7:51:53 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. Lots of people were offended by the words of Jesus too (Matthew 13 v 57) It doesn't sound like your relative was trying to upset or offend you, but probably would love to see you enjoying the same things that bring him peace, joy and comfort in spite of his illness. You may not be in agreement with him, but I'm sure you can understand him wanting to talk about the most important thing in his life? Speaking the truth will bring division. Jesus said "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" and goes on to speak of families that will be divided because of the truth (Luke 12 v 51 - 53) ...or is it someone who believes a system based on confirmation bias seeking additional "confirmation"? Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? Or do divisions arise because the human behavior is predictably divisive?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 7:58:54 GMT -5
Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? Or do divisions arise because the human behavior is predictably divisive? 1. No 2. No 3. Not particularly, but I bet you and I are divided in our opinions on this whole topic - is that because human behaviour is predictably divisive, or just because we believe different things?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 8:03:47 GMT -5
Secular arrogance is the new problem. It's more arrogant, and a lot crueler.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 8:06:26 GMT -5
Lots of people were offended by the words of Jesus too (Matthew 13 v 57) It doesn't sound like your relative was trying to upset or offend you, but probably would love to see you enjoying the same things that bring him peace, joy and comfort in spite of his illness. You may not be in agreement with him, but I'm sure you can understand him wanting to talk about the most important thing in his life? Speaking the truth will bring division. Jesus said "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" and goes on to speak of families that will be divided because of the truth (Luke 12 v 51 - 53) ...or is it someone who believes a system based on confirmation bias seeking additional "confirmation"? Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? Or do divisions arise because the human behavior is predictably divisive? Very good questions matisse. Even experts in particular fields cannot and do not agree on everything, they do not see eye to eye. Politicians in the same political Party very often are divided over certain issues and vote with their consciences or abstain from voting altogether, yep human behaviour can be divisive and predictively so. Much depends on which school of thought you are aligned to.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 28, 2015 8:13:54 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this quote, by Voltaire, I think. Seek out the company of those who are searching for the truth. But avoid at all cost those who claim to have found it! so if you found truth you wouldn't tell any one? In that situation I am somewhat careful about truth claims. I'd rather just tell people this or that is what I believe. And then I want to hear what they have to say in return. If someone claims to have all the answers I'm immediately skeptical that that is the case, and you can not easily dialogue with such a person. Incidentally, I find that many of the friends are not like the person in the OP, but some are. Some lack grace. In a conversation involving 3 professing people and one person who left the group five years before, the following demonstrates insensitivity. "He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave." If his 'knowledge of the Truth' leads him to make comments like that, I would question what that person knows and whether he has actually learned much that is truly of value. The best approach I know when assaulted in that manner is to call the cowardly comments out into the open. "Do you mean me?" Especially if it is family, and you are going to have an ongoing relationship with that person. Otherwise, use Voltaire's suggestion and "avoid at all costs".
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 8:45:42 GMT -5
Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? Or do divisions arise because the human behavior is predictably divisive? 1. No 2. No 3. Not particularly, but I bet you and I are divided in our opinions on this whole topic - is that because human behaviour is predictably divisive, or just because we believe different things? Re 1 and 2, I have family members who point to things like "few there be that find it" as evidence they are on the right track. I tried to explain to a family member how when the party line on "the Inside" (and i once was on the Inside) is that people like me are headed to a "Lost Eternity", it is just a little off-putting. She was wondering why I had seemed distant from professing family after I stopped going to meetings. She denied the "Party Line" (even though we sat in most meetings together when I was a kid) and acted like I was the one with a problem. That, IMO, is an example of a divisive belief.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 8:51:12 GMT -5
1. No 2. No 3. Not particularly, but I bet you and I are divided in our opinions on this whole topic - is that because human behaviour is predictably divisive, or just because we believe different things? Re 1 and 2, I have family members who point to things like "few there be that find it" as evidence they are on the right track. I tried to explain to a family member how when the party line on "the Inside" (and i once was on the Inside) is that people like me are headed to a "Lost Eternity", it is just a little off-putting. She was wondering why I had seemed distant from professing family after I stopped going to meetings. She denied the "Party Line" (even though we sat in most meetings together when I was a kid) and acted like I was the one with a problem. That, IMO, is an example of a divisive belief. You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 8:59:45 GMT -5
Re 1 and 2, I have family members who point to things like "few there be that find it" as evidence they are on the right track. I tried to explain to a family member how when the party line on "the Inside" (and i once was on the Inside) is that people like me are headed to a "Lost Eternity", it is just a little off-putting. She was wondering why I had seemed distant from professing family after I stopped going to meetings. She denied the "Party Line" (even though we sat in most meetings together when I was a kid) and acted like I was the one with a problem. That, IMO, is an example of a divisive belief. You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division. Are you sure your answers to questions 1 and 2 above are "no"? What was interesting (stunning, really) to me was the level of denial of the message we had heard preached when I pointed out to my family member how anti-social it is.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 9:07:20 GMT -5
You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division. Are you sure your answers to questions 1 and 2 above are "no"? What was interesting (stunning, really) to me was the level of denial of the message we had heard preached when I pointed out to my family member how anti-social it is. 1. Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? - No, you could have two people divided in their opinions on the scriptures without either of them being right. 2. Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? - No, for the same reason as 1.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 9:14:21 GMT -5
Are you sure your answers to questions 1 and 2 above are "no"? What was interesting (stunning, really) to me was the level of denial of the message we had heard preached when I pointed out to my family member how anti-social it is. 1. Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? - No, you could have two people divided in their opinions on the scriptures without either of them being right. 2. Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? - No, for the same reason as 1. Do they for you And your beliefs?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 9:22:54 GMT -5
1. Do "divisions" establish biblical veracity? - No, you could have two people divided in their opinions on the scriptures without either of them being right. 2. Do divisions confirm the "veracity" of the faith of a given believer? - No, for the same reason as 1. Do they for you And your beliefs? Divisions bring me great personal grief, because some of my close family members do not share the same belief in God. I still wouldn't claim that it's the division that makes what I believe to be truth, or that it's division that confirms my faith.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 9:25:58 GMT -5
Do they for you And your beliefs? Divisions bring me great personal grief, because some of my close family members do not share the same belief in God. I still wouldn't claim that it's the division that makes what I believe to be truth, or that it's division that confirms my faith. Ok, thanks for answering. Divisions in my family around beliefs bring me great personal grief as well. I guess that is one thing you and I have in common.
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Post by snow on Apr 28, 2015 10:32:10 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this quote, by Voltaire, I think. Seek out the company of those who are searching for the truth. But avoid at all cost those who claim to have found it! so if you found truth you wouldn't tell any one? lol, did you ever miss the point of that one Virgo.
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Post by snow on Apr 28, 2015 11:26:25 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. Lots of people were offended by the words of Jesus too (Matthew 13 v 57) It doesn't sound like your relative was trying to upset or offend you, but probably would love to see you enjoying the same things that bring him peace, joy and comfort in spite of his illness. You may not be in agreement with him, but I'm sure you can understand him wanting to talk about the most important thing in his life? Speaking the truth will bring division. Jesus said "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" and goes on to speak of families that will be divided because of the truth (Luke 12 v 51 - 53) So you think it's a good thing if I tell my creationist relatives how much I wish they were atheists so that they could finally have peace in their lives. Didn't have to worry about where they were going when they died, didn't have to defend their faith beliefs to those who find them illogical etc.? That would be a good thing do you think? You don't think my relatives wouldn't feel a tad offended? Yet it's just fine that they tell me I should take Jesus as my savior, believe in God and numerous other things you have to have faith to believe in, and this is because they love me? Okay. I'll let you know how that works. If it goes over with them like it goes over on here when atheists speak about what they think, I imagine I won't have relatives talking to me for much longer!
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Post by snow on Apr 28, 2015 11:31:02 GMT -5
Secular arrogance is the new problem. It's more arrogant, and a lot crueler. No, it stands for the freedoms of all people, not just people who believe like you do. Without a secular society we would have a lot of problems Christians don't even think about. Even within Christianity there are so many different views that if a conservative Christian government ruled, the more liberal Christians would be complaining because they would feel their rights were being trampled on. I don't think we can get much crueler than a theocracy in power. All you have to do is look at the Middle East and see how wonderful it is to be governed by a theocracy. Or how wonderful it was for people when the RCC had power.
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Post by snow on Apr 28, 2015 11:33:28 GMT -5
Re 1 and 2, I have family members who point to things like "few there be that find it" as evidence they are on the right track. I tried to explain to a family member how when the party line on "the Inside" (and i once was on the Inside) is that people like me are headed to a "Lost Eternity", it is just a little off-putting. She was wondering why I had seemed distant from professing family after I stopped going to meetings. She denied the "Party Line" (even though we sat in most meetings together when I was a kid) and acted like I was the one with a problem. That, IMO, is an example of a divisive belief. You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division. And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 12:23:25 GMT -5
You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division. And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity? Yes And I believe humanity will be divided in eternity too
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Post by maryhig on Apr 28, 2015 12:35:09 GMT -5
You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division. And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity? Jesus didn't divide he came to bring back to God. His word divided. And people themselves chose to turn away because they didn't want to know. God wants everyone!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 12:37:58 GMT -5
And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity? Yes And I believe humanity will be divided in eternity too What! Like sheep from the goats, wheat from the tares, like Lazarus and the rich man?
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 12:51:17 GMT -5
And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity? Jesus didn't divide he came to bring back to God. His word divided. And people themselves chose to turn away because they didn't want to know. God wants everyone! God didn't evaporate, he did not turn his back on me, nor did I turn mine on him. He simply was never there. I only "knew" he was there for the first 25 years of my life. This is my testimony. I daresay it is no less heartfelt nor less sincere than yours.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 12:57:56 GMT -5
And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity? Yes And I believe humanity will be divided in eternity too Makes me almost feel weary to think of just how many differenT ways people see this division happening. How many "know" in their heart because God revealed it to them that theirs is the True Way of God and theirs are the True ScriptureS and theirs is the revealed interpretation of the True Scriptures... there is an incredible amount of division among "True Believers."
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Post by maryhig on Apr 28, 2015 13:06:32 GMT -5
Jesus didn't divide he came to bring back to God. His word divided. And people themselves chose to turn away because they didn't want to know. God wants everyone! God didn't evaporate, he did not turn his back on me, nor did I turn mine on him. He simply was never there. I only "knew" he was there for the first 25 years of my life. This is my testimony. I daresay it is no less heartfelt nor less sincere than yours. Something happened if you believed for the first 25 years of your life. Or did you just stop believing. I'm not questioning you being cheeky i'm just curious to how a person can just stop believing. If it's too painful or personal then I totally understand why you wouldn't want to say.
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Post by Mary on Apr 28, 2015 13:15:08 GMT -5
Findingtruth and her relative believe in the same God. So no, Jesus did not want those who believe in Him to be divided but to be in harmony.
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 13:43:05 GMT -5
...from where I stand, there exists wild discord, a great cacophony of clashing and insistent beliefs and interpretations within Christianity. Just look at some of the contentious threads here on TMB. I hear a grossly dissonant "Que sera, sera."
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Post by blacksheep on Apr 28, 2015 13:54:55 GMT -5
When I read the "testimony" in the OP, it brought to mind another testimony, the one of the Pharisee mentioned in Luke 18.
" The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector."
When I find myself in the situation that the OP was in, I say , "Oh, that reminds me, I have to get along now....the barn needs to be mucked out...there's a big pile of male bovine excrement accumulating ..."
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Post by matisse on Apr 28, 2015 14:04:19 GMT -5
God didn't evaporate, he did not turn his back on me, nor did I turn mine on him. He simply was never there. I only "knew" he was there for the first 25 years of my life. This is my testimony. I daresay it is no less heartfelt nor less sincere than yours. Something happened if you believed for the first 25 years of your life. Or did you just stop believing. I'm not questioning you being cheeky i'm just curious to how a person can just stop believing. If it's too painful or personal then I totally understand why you wouldn't want to say. What happened for the first 25 years of my life is that I fully accepted and believed what I was exposed to as a member of my birth family, not unlike many other believers of widely differing faiths. I have written about my experience of losing my faith before on TMB. I will look later and post a link or two.
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Post by faune on Apr 28, 2015 14:41:31 GMT -5
so if you found truth you wouldn't tell any one? lol, did you ever miss the point of that one Virgo. Snow ~ No Kidding! I felt the same way, too!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 16:34:06 GMT -5
lol, did you ever miss the point of that one Virgo. Snow ~ No Kidding! I felt the same way, too! Finders keepers???
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