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Post by findingtruth on Apr 27, 2015 12:00:08 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth.
Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation.
Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need.
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Post by emy on Apr 27, 2015 12:29:24 GMT -5
Did his testimony (a public declaration regarding a religious experience) personally offend you?
I would think this: ... further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. would be a wonderful form of love.
I think that since you have been a part of his fellowship group, you would grasp the tremendous courage it would take for him to give that testimony.
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Post by snow on Apr 27, 2015 12:35:33 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. Personally, I can't see how religion can't produce those things. If you believe that you and you alone hold the truth then that immediately makes you right and everyone else wrong. Some religions teach that it is in their best spiritual interest to get rid of the infidels because they are causing the suffering of the 'blessed'. That belief justifies the killing of those who do not believe as you do, in your interpretation of God. Because religion is based on faith, and the sacred books that usually accompany each religion are often contradictory, we also see hypocrisy because how else do you defend the reasons why you no longer do certain things the book tells you to do? To justify many things you have to make up a reason why these rules or laws no longer apply to you. If you are the holder of the only truth, then you automatically become superior to those who do not understand, or do not have access to God's guidance because you just aren't quite 'willing' enough. Because there are many things in these books that justify behavior that may involve prejudice against the 'other', we do see some pretty horrific acts through out history by religious groups when they were in power. Two pretty relevant examples that are modern is the prejudice against blacks and gays. In my opinion, a loving God would not do any of these things and for me, it makes me understand that these Gods are just made up by man's creative mind to justify many of the awful things they want to do. In God's name of course. As far as family goes, I do see it as divisive. My birth family are creationist Baptist Christians and I am not. Definitely a wall there even though we do love each other. I am the outsider and cannot understand what they are talking about because God does not speak to me and guide me. Yet I am every bit as loving, compassionate and helpful as they are. But all of that means nothing because I don't believe in God. ps when I use the word 'you' in the above, I am not meaning anyone personally, but as a general usage of 'you'.
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Post by mrleo on Apr 27, 2015 15:20:25 GMT -5
The fewer people that have the same revelation, the more exceptional those few can feel.
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Post by Mary on Apr 27, 2015 15:56:03 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped.
I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 27, 2015 16:02:00 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this quote, by Voltaire, I think.
Seek out the company of those who are searching for the truth. But avoid at all cost those who claim to have found it!
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 27, 2015 16:15:36 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this quote, by Voltaire, I think. Seek out the company of those who are searching for the truth. But avoid at all cost those who claim to have found it! I had come across something similar to this before in the form of a prayer: "Help me to discover Thy truth, O Lord, and preserve me from those who have already found it." It helps me a lot when I come across people who have too much certainty.
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Post by emy on Apr 27, 2015 16:57:18 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. I wonder if he did some deep thinking during the 22 years he was not in the fellowship? Many who leave say that they give a lot of thought to what they are doing or have done. If so, it seems unlikely that what he said was "just towing the line." Do you give any credence to a person having a revelation or must it be what fits your revelation? It seems people do congregate according to the way they see truth. (see last paragraph) In addition, you often profess a sort of testimony here at TMB. Is it your intent to offend some who might read what you write, or is it to expose them to what your life experiences and spiritual study have meant to you? Here's what Jesus said about worship: ... the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. Fellowship, which is what we have in groups, is the result of worship in spirit and in truth. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.
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Post by findingtruth on Apr 27, 2015 22:22:58 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. I wonder if he did some deep thinking during the 22 years he was not in the fellowship? Many who leave say that they give a lot of thought to what they are doing or have done. If so, it seems unlikely that what he said was "just towing the line." Do you give any credence to a person having a revelation or must it be what fits your revelation? It seems people do congregate according to the way they see truth. (see last paragraph) In addition, you often profess a sort of testimony here at TMB. Is it your intent to offend some who might read what you write, or is it to expose them to what your life experiences and spiritual study have meant to you? Here's what Jesus said about worship: ... the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. Fellowship, which is what we have in groups, is the result of worship in spirit and in truth. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.Emy, he was chided many times by his professing siblings about his absence from the fellowship. As a young teenager I heard the conversations and was amazed at the arrogance. There is a tendency by some "religious" individuals to shame outsiders into compliance. What may feel like a "revelation" may actually be a result of years of religious pressure. This man is a loving person and I must say he expresses that love to everyone regardless of their religious (or not) preference. But his words were quite obviously judgmental of all others who did not embrace his feelings about the 2x2 fellowship. I don't believe the 2x2 fellowship was his "salvation" but I do believe he came to a point in his life that he felt he needed to change his life and outlook on things. There was a certain element of comfort in returning to what he was familiar with. I'll ask you the exact same question you asked.....Do YOU give any credence to a person having a revelation or must it be what fits YOUR revelation? I'm not trying to judge your intent in asking this question but I feel you might ask yourself that same question.
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Post by emy on Apr 27, 2015 22:56:26 GMT -5
If the revelation leads to a changed life, yes I would give credence to it.
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Post by findingtruth on Apr 27, 2015 23:00:08 GMT -5
Did his testimony (a public declaration regarding a religious experience) personally offend you? I would think this: ... further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. would be a wonderful form of love. I think that since you have been a part of his fellowship group, you would grasp the tremendous courage it would take for him to give that testimony. Emy, let's consider a very different scenario. You asked if I was personally offended. Picture yourself sitting in a setting with 3 others who had left the fellowship due to their own personal revelations. All 3 were people you loved and cared about. How would you have felt with a 15 minute testimony that went something like this: "It's been such a blessing to have finally had a true revelation from God. My heart aches for those who are lost and don't have a full understanding of Truth. They remain locked in the 2x2 system - one that encourages them to judge all others as lost when they really haven't allowed God to soften their hearts and show them what Truth really is. I spent many years concerned with what others thought and didn't take the time to read scripture without a bias and was unable to grasp the true message of Christ. Jesus said 'I AM the way the Truth and the Life'. It's difficult to understand why those who remain trapped in that system are unwilling to recognize ALL their brothers and sisters in Christ and limit the full joy they could enjoy by breaking down the barriers that divide them from those of us who have come to a full understanding. I sure hope those who are still so deceived can find the strength to flee from the very system that keeps them imprisoned." Of course there would be nodding and acknowledgement....a few tears. Scripture would be quoted that supported their viewpoint. Emy, in presenting this scenario I hope you're honest enough to admit that you might be slightly offended. Please explain why you feel this testimony would have taken courage. And what does my past association with the group have to do with his courage? There have been plenty of opportunities for him to express the same thing with the other two when I was not present. Just a note - the possible scenario above is not one that I personally would have given but I've heard plenty from former members of your fellowship that have expressed similar feelings.
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Post by emy on Apr 27, 2015 23:21:18 GMT -5
Would the man be able to have a discussion, or is he too weak? I'm trying to imagine someone I know speaking those words, and due to my lack of such exposure, I honestly don't know if I would be offended. If I felt it was clearly directed at me, my inclination would be to share what I feel about the points mentioned.
If you feel he is imprisoned, isn't it important to share how you have been set free to have a closer relationship with God?
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 27, 2015 23:24:52 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. When I first left 2x2ism, I became aware just how much some family members and friends wanted me "back in the fold". My first instinct was to push back and to articulate my position in no uncertain terms. And then I realized that they were loving me the best they knew how. This resulted in a complete paradigm shift for me. Now, when I am the recipient of this kind of thing, I just (silently) thank them for their love and stand in my own integrity.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2015 23:27:50 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. You know, the Bible does tell us about people who worship Jesus, but He never knew them. Does that give you pause?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2015 23:34:12 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. When I first left 2x2ism, I became aware just how much some family members and friends wanted me "back in the fold". My first instinct was to push back and to articulate my position in no uncertain terms. And then I realized that they were loving me as much as they knew how. This resulted in a complete paradigm shift for me. Now, when I am the recipient of this kind of thing, I just (silently) thank them for their love and stand in my own integrity. In my experience since I left, not a single person has suggested that I return. One of our very best and closest friends once told us she missed us, but she never suggested we return because she knew exactly why we left. Some of my nieces claim they like my earring.
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Post by withlove on Apr 27, 2015 23:41:11 GMT -5
I've heard the quote in the OP happen plenty in conversation, and of course heard it happen in the fellowship meetings and gospel meetings where outsiders are present. The people usually don't seem to mean harm and just don't know better how to speak and love, IMO.
Of course it is divisive...the outsiders know they are the ones being talked about as if they weren't there--especially awkward if there are only a very few or one. Did Jesus ever approach it like that? It seems like he always addressed people directly.
To be honest, I think there are friends who believe they are in the only true way but are a little more evolved and just love and live and speak in a more considerate way. Their once-in loved ones already know how they feel and appreciate not being beat over the head with it randomly, and therefore look forward to spending time together more and therefore are more likely to see good in the fellowship. If recruitment is the goal, that is a better tactic, but some people just do it that way because it is a more loving, Christ-like way to live.
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logain
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Post by logain on Apr 27, 2015 23:43:53 GMT -5
The tremendous ego that comes with self proclaimed revelation is always a turn off to me.
Some of the friends (and I appreciate those ones) are able to have a meek and beautiful way about them, but far to many have a level of confidence (or beyond that to arrogance) that makes them hard to take.
I suspect that I will never be regarded as a "hearty" member or give the workers confidence in my "revelation"; my nature simply cannot foster the size of ego that would be required to hold such beliefs.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 23:56:40 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. maybe he knows that Jesus is in the fellowship
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2015 23:58:19 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this quote, by Voltaire, I think. Seek out the company of those who are searching for the truth. But avoid at all cost those who claim to have found it! so if you found truth you wouldn't tell any one?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 0:00:18 GMT -5
I'm reminded of this quote, by Voltaire, I think. Seek out the company of those who are searching for the truth. But avoid at all cost those who claim to have found it! I had come across something similar to this before in the form of a prayer: "Help me to discover Thy truth, O Lord, and preserve me from those who have already found it." It helps me a lot when I come across people who have too much certainty. so in that case you couldn't/wouldn't have fellowship with those who have
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 28, 2015 1:18:38 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. maybe he knows that Jesus is in the fellowship I think that Jesús professed in Mexico.
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Post by withlove on Apr 28, 2015 1:23:47 GMT -5
I think that Jesús professed in Mexico. Sounds right. He traveled with the 12 in one Accord.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 28, 2015 3:42:28 GMT -5
I think that Jesús professed in Mexico. Sounds right. He traveled with the 12 in one Accord. You sure it wasn't a Civic?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 28, 2015 3:47:08 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. I doubt that he even thought of you personally when he made such a statement as this: " additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave."
It tends to be the stock answer that many people give.
It seems they have to to believe something like that in order for them to understand the reason the people leave
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 4:24:24 GMT -5
We may not agree with a person for his/ her convictions, but we should never poke fun or show deep resentment , scorn etc. we all see the world in our particular way of understanding it and that probably goes for the religious world as well; we may not all agree with him/her but the individual is entitled to his/ her opinions. What is good and satisfactory for the goose may not be always good and satisfactory for the gander, but the goose and the ganger must be allowed to exist. We don't have to all agree, if that were so, the world would be a very wonderful and peaceable place in all respects and aspects. I don't have to agree with anything anybody says, but I would defend his or her right to express himself/herself freely and be prepared to face anybconsequences that follow. I am not an exclusivest myself, but I don't condemn anyone for being so as long as they don't use illegal and unfair tactics/actions to enforce and practice their beliefs. I place religeous and racial discrimination in the same category in that regard.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 4:45:56 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. Yes I agree that it might have been insensitive to some of the hearers, unfortunately, but honest to the deliverer of the testimony, and God loves honest hearts; he did not stifle his conscience, he told it as he saw it and as he believed it to be.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2015 5:43:51 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. Lots of people were offended by the words of Jesus too (Matthew 13 v 57) It doesn't sound like your relative was trying to upset or offend you, but probably would love to see you enjoying the same things that bring him peace, joy and comfort in spite of his illness. You may not be in agreement with him, but I'm sure you can understand him wanting to talk about the most important thing in his life? Speaking the truth will bring division. Jesus said "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" and goes on to speak of families that will be divided because of the truth (Luke 12 v 51 - 53)
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Post by magpie on Apr 28, 2015 6:04:30 GMT -5
So he found peace amongst the heresy of no triune of God,judgemental exclusivism,at last revealed the fruits of unbiblical unatural celibacy that has created paedophile infiltration and then over a century of criminal child sexual abuse,ostracisn/excommunication casting questioners and theological challengers out to a 2x2 hell,incorperated/reg'd names lied about and denied yet preaching as a nameless denomination,mind control,the ignoring of brutally damaged victims of CSA,adultries and power to obtain rapes,no pastoral care,cold and compassionless sect. MMM sounds like the only way to,no no no not heaven,the other place.
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