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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 28, 2015 16:39:56 GMT -5
He obviously thinks that truth is only found in his fellowship. Does he not feel that truth is found in Jesus I.e. any fellowship where Jesus is Worshipped. I would think someone who has left would have been offended by his words. It was an insensitive testimony. Is courage needed when insensitivity is present. I don't call it courage I call it towing the line, repeating the same old line. Yes I agree that it might have been insensitive to some of the hearers, unfortunately, but honest to the deliverer of the testimony, and God loves honest hearts; he did not stifle his conscience, he told it as he saw it and as he believed it to be. The very best thing I could say about my father when he died was the he never lied to me -- about anything, not even Santa Claus. I didn't agree with him all the time, but he never ever expected me to lie either.
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Post by What Hat on Apr 28, 2015 19:12:54 GMT -5
Just minutes ago I left a group of 3 "professing" people. I was the only "outsider" in the group. This was all family. One has been ill for quite some time and he was basically giving a testimony of thankfulness to have had his eyes opened to "truth" several decades ago. He had been B&R in the 2x2 fellowship, left the fellowship when he was 18 and entered the army, 2 years later met the love of his life (who was not a professing person), they married and raised a family and continue a happy marriage today. He did have what he refers to as a "revelation" in his early 40's and rejoined the 2x2 fellowship. He made additional comments about individuals who may have been part of the fellowship for years without any real understanding and that their lack of understanding and hard heart would cause them to leave. Note: I left the fellowship 5 years ago. He expressed how glad he was to have finally received a full understanding of Truth, how glad he was to be part of God's family, and further expressed his concern for all others who did not have such a revelation and were part of a troubled world. There were many other comments that directly suggested his confidence in his own understanding of Truth. Instead of a 2x2 member this could easily have been the testimony of a JW, Mormon, Mennonite, Amish, Catholic and a host of other groups that each feel they have somehow found the key to Truth. Interestingly, not once was the word "Love" ever mentioned in this conversation. Is it possible that the power of religious arrogance has created division, judgment, war, hypocrisy and a host of other negative behaviors? I do want to mention how much I love my family and if this brings them a sense of comfort then perhaps it's what they need. Lots of people were offended by the words of Jesus too (Matthew 13 v 57) It doesn't sound like your relative was trying to upset or offend you, but probably would love to see you enjoying the same things that bring him peace, joy and comfort in spite of his illness. You may not be in agreement with him, but I'm sure you can understand him wanting to talk about the most important thing in his life? Speaking the truth will bring division. Jesus said "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:" and goes on to speak of families that will be divided because of the truth (Luke 12 v 51 - 53) Jesus did say there would be division. Now the question is whether you're on the right side of the line when you judge someone.
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Post by Mary on Apr 28, 2015 19:26:06 GMT -5
Divisions between believers and unbelievers or between believers?
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Post by What Hat on Apr 28, 2015 22:48:37 GMT -5
Divisions between believers and unbelievers or between believers? Between the first and the last. Between the affluent and the poor in spirit. Between the unjust and the just. Between the hard hearted and the merciful. Between the sowers of discord and the peacemakers. Between the oppressor and the oppressed. I don't think Jesus wanted to sow division, but he knew that when he provided help for the downtrodden, the publican and the leper, that the powers of the world weren't going to support him, and in fact, try to bring him down for it. They did not want him upsetting the order and balance they had established, an order which kept themselves in and others out. Anytime that someone fights for the right thing, it causes division.
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Post by withlove on Apr 28, 2015 23:15:09 GMT -5
**My apologies...having trouble with quoting! Matisse had referenced "few they be who find it."** If small numbers is evidence, there are plenty of groups who could claim they are the chosen ones based on that. The world population is over 7 billion. Of that, 31% are listed as Christian. Of that, 6.15% are Protestant. Westboro Baptist Church, snake handlers, some money scam churches, and fake healers would fall under the Protestant umbrella. You don't have to believe the only right Christians are the friends and workers to believe that there are few who find it. What about the "ten thousand thousand voices?"
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Post by matisse on Apr 29, 2015 0:01:06 GMT -5
**My apologies...having trouble with quoting! Matisse had referenced "few they be who find it."** :) If small numbers is evidence, there are plenty of groups who could claim they are the chosen ones based on that. The world population is over 7 billion. Of that, 31% are listed as Christian. Of that, 6.15% are Protestant. Westboro Baptist Church, snake handlers, some money scam churches, and fake healers would fall under the Protestant umbrella. You don't have to believe the only right Christians are the friends and workers to believe that there are few who find it. What about the "ten thousand thousand voices?" I'm not sure I understand your post. The "few they be who find it" reference is only one of many verses my professing family might take as providing reasurrance that they are on the right track.
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Post by findingtruth on Apr 29, 2015 0:13:35 GMT -5
Would the man be able to have a discussion, or is he too weak? I'm trying to imagine someone I know speaking those words, and due to my lack of such exposure, I honestly don't know if I would be offended. If I felt it was clearly directed at me, my inclination would be to share what I feel about the points mentioned. If you feel he is imprisoned, isn't it important to share how you have been set free to have a closer relationship with God? At this point I feel his energy should be focused on getting stronger physically. There is no need to compromise that by saying anything that might upset him. I am not a confrontational person but I do and have voiced my feelings to him in the past. And it's likely that if the opportunity presents itself in the future I'd be happy to visit with him. I don't feel that I have a closer relationship with God. I feel that my deep respect for my personal creator brought me out of the group. I'd be happy to visit with YOU personally about why I feel as I do. I'd take that conversation off an open thread and visit one on one. I have found, however, that most people in your fellowship are not comfortable with conversation that might challenge them on what they believe. They are more interested in defending what they have become comfortable with. I have actually come to very different conclusions about who Jesus was and what the Bible actually represents.
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Post by withlove on Apr 29, 2015 0:18:51 GMT -5
**My apologies...having trouble with quoting! Matisse had referenced "few they be who find it."** If small numbers is evidence, there are plenty of groups who could claim they are the chosen ones based on that. The world population is over 7 billion. Of that, 31% are listed as Christian. Of that, 6.15% are Protestant. Westboro Baptist Church, snake handlers, some money scam churches, and fake healers would fall under the Protestant umbrella. You don't have to believe the only right Christians are the friends and workers to believe that there are few who find it. What about the "ten thousand thousand voices?" I'm not sure I understand your post. The "few they be who find it" reference is only one of many verses my professing family might take as providing reasurrance that they are on the right track. Sorry--it was a bit confusing! I just mean that there are probably a lot of Christians outside the f&w circle who think the "few" apply to them. Even if someone is not in an exclusive Christian denomination--let's say he believes that 1/3 of all Christians are REAL Christians, based on his view of doctrine, etc.--that 1/3 of Christians is still a small fraction of the world's current population. Few is relative. Who knows how few Jesus meant. Yes, I understand that it is only one of many verses that make people feel reassured. Same for my family.
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Post by emy on Apr 29, 2015 0:24:45 GMT -5
..... I'd be happy to visit with YOU personally about why I feel as I do. I'd take that conversation off an open thread and visit one on one. I have found, however, that most people in your fellowship are not comfortable with conversation that might challenge them on what they believe. They are more interested in defending what they have become comfortable with. I have actually come to very different conclusions about who Jesus was and what the Bible actually represents. That sounds like it would be an interesting conversation. Hope it could be in person!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 1:10:43 GMT -5
You're right, it is a divisive belief - it's supposed to be. Like I pointed out above, Jesus said he came to bring division. And you believe it's good, right and loving to follow someone who divides humanity instead of uniting humanity? humanity divides itself even without someone to follow
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 1:12:14 GMT -5
Yes And I believe humanity will be divided in eternity too What! Like sheep from the goats, wheat from the tares, like Lazarus and the rich man? yea yea like that
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 4:33:49 GMT -5
So he found peace amongst the heresy of no triune of God,judgemental exclusivism,at last revealed the fruits of unbiblical unatural celibacy that has created paedophile infiltration and then over a century of criminal child sexual abuse,ostracisn/excommunication casting questioners and theological challengers out to a 2x2 hell,incorperated/reg'd names lied about and denied yet preaching as a nameless denomination,mind control,the ignoring of brutally damaged victims of CSA,adultries and power to obtain rapes,no pastoral care,cold and compassionless sect. MMM sounds like the only way to,no no no not heaven,the other place. Yes, isn't that wonderfully strange how things work sometimes? just like that "one" leper our of ten who returned to give thanks and show appreciation for being healed. Luke 17:11-19. Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Can anything good come out of the F&W fellowship or any other fellowship, for that matter? Only God is the Righteous Judge in such matters, He judges hearts, not just outward appearances and actions. Who are we to judge? ps. Thanks to the kind poster who pointed out my mistake re. ten instead of seven lepers as quoted by me.
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Post by mdm on Apr 29, 2015 10:26:51 GMT -5
I've heard the quote in the OP happen plenty in conversation, and of course heard it happen in the fellowship meetings and gospel meetings where outsiders are present. The people usually don't seem to mean harm and just don't know better how to speak and love, IMO. Of course it is divisive...the outsiders know they are the ones being talked about as if they weren't there--especially awkward if there are only a very few or one. Did Jesus ever approach it like that? It seems like he always addressed people directly. To be honest, I think there are friends who believe they are in the only true way but are a little more evolved and just love and live and speak in a more considerate way. Their once-in loved ones already know how they feel and appreciate not being beat over the head with it randomly, and therefore look forward to spending time together more and therefore are more likely to see good in the fellowship. If recruitment is the goal, that is a better tactic, but some people just do it that way because it is a more loving, Christ-like way to live. Since none of our family professes, we always felt uncomfortable and embarrassed when F&W spoke against other churches and Christians in their presence. Seems that there is plenty to talk about and be thankful for without putting others down. This especially became intolerable for us as we learned about the dark side of the fellowship.
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Post by mdm on Apr 29, 2015 10:51:06 GMT -5
So he found peace amongst the heresy of no triune of God,judgemental exclusivism,at last revealed the fruits of unbiblical unatural celibacy that has created paedophile infiltration and then over a century of criminal child sexual abuse,ostracisn/excommunication casting questioners and theological challengers out to a 2x2 hell,incorperated/reg'd names lied about and denied yet preaching as a nameless denomination,mind control,the ignoring of brutally damaged victims of CSA,adultries and power to obtain rapes,no pastoral care,cold and compassionless sect. MMM sounds like the only way to,no no no not heaven,the other place. Yes, isn't that wonderfully strange how things work sometimes? just like that "one" leper our of ten who returned to give thanks and show appreciation for being healed. Luke 17:11-19. Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Can anything good come out of the F&W fellowship or any other fellowship, for that matter? Only God is the Righteous Judge in such matters, He judges hearts, not just outward appearances and actions. Who are we to judge? ps. Thanks to the kind poster who pointed out my mistake re. ten instead of seven lepers as quoted by me. Yes, good things can come out of anywhere, and God can speak to and lead anyone regardless of where they are. But I still have a problem with the mindset of many F&W who are smug about their belonging to the "only true way," and who at the same time are not willing to honestly examine the group they belong to and to speak out and act against practices that go against principles they outwardly stand for. This to me is religious arrogance and hypocrisy.
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Post by matisse on Apr 29, 2015 11:12:08 GMT -5
God didn't evaporate, he did not turn his back on me, nor did I turn mine on him. He simply was never there. I only "knew" he was there for the first 25 years of my life. This is my testimony. I daresay it is no less heartfelt nor less sincere than yours. Something happened if you believed for the first 25 years of your life. Or did you just stop believing. I'm not questioning you being cheeky i'm just curious to how a person can just stop believing. If it's too painful or personal then I totally understand why you wouldn't want to say. Here is one link, maryh to something I wrote a while back about my loss of faith: Suspension of disbeliefAnd another I wrote about some of the process I went through after the loss of my faith: Healing
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2015 12:09:24 GMT -5
Yes, isn't that wonderfully strange how things work sometimes? just like that "one" leper our of ten who returned to give thanks and show appreciation for being healed. Luke 17:11-19. Can anything good come out of Nazareth? Can anything good come out of the F&W fellowship or any other fellowship, for that matter? Only God is the Righteous Judge in such matters, He judges hearts, not just outward appearances and actions. Who are we to judge? ps. Thanks to the kind poster who pointed out my mistake re. ten instead of seven lepers as quoted by me. Yes, good things can come out of anywhere, and God can speak to and lead anyone regardless of where they are. But I still have a problem with the mindset of many F&W who are smug about their belonging to the "only true way," and who at the same time are not willing to honestly examine the group they belong to and to speak out and act against practices that go against principles they outwardly stand for. This to me is religious arrogance and hypocrisy. Ok, fair enough comment. I have no quarrel with that which presumably is based on your personal observations/perceptions and experiences.
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 29, 2015 15:21:27 GMT -5
Something happened if you believed for the first 25 years of your life. Or did you just stop believing. I'm not questioning you being cheeky i'm just curious to how a person can just stop believing. If it's too painful or personal then I totally understand why you wouldn't want to say. Here is one link, maryh to something I wrote a while back about my loss of faith: Suspension of disbeliefAnd another I wrote about some of the process I went through after the loss of my faith: HealingI sometimes really resonate with stuff you write, though I often think so much is lost when we try to capture it with words. You write of being "left with an incredible inner silence". From my personal experience, this is what I would tend to apply the "God" label to. (Sort of, but not in its entirety.) "Incredible inner silence" has been part of my experience from my earliest memories, through my years in 2X2ism, and it is stronger now than it has ever been. Rachel Naomi Remen writes "As I age I am grateful to find that a silence has begun to gather in me, coexisting with my tempers and my fears, unchanged by my joys or my pain. Sanctuary. Connected to the Silence everywhere." I think I understand this. I don't tend to anthropomorphize God much, though I understand why it is sometimes useful for people to do this. I think for some people, this inner silence is what they are reaching to express when they use the God terminology, and these are the ones that I feel a kinship for. However, as I have been watching the insanity of the trinity debates here, I have begun to question if I should just step away from using this kind of terminology. When someone else questioned this a while ago on this board, I responded saying that if it was putting them in touch with the mystery that is the ground of their own being , then to use any terminology that worked for them and don't apologize to anyone. Maybe not. Sometimes things just become so insane that you need to dissociate from them.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 29, 2015 16:33:16 GMT -5
Something happened if you believed for the first 25 years of your life. Or did you just stop believing. I'm not questioning you being cheeky i'm just curious to how a person can just stop believing. If it's too painful or personal then I totally understand why you wouldn't want to say. Here is one link, maryh to something I wrote a while back about my loss of faith: Suspension of disbeliefAnd another I wrote about some of the process I went through after the loss of my faith: HealingMatisse I am going to read these in bit, I'm not being ignorant I've been busy. Thank you for looking up those links
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Post by maryhig on Apr 29, 2015 17:22:02 GMT -5
Ok here goes, I've been pondering about sin and forgiveness. It's been on my mind since all this about adultery came up. Now what I'm about to write isn't just about adultery, but sin in general. So I've been praying to God from my heart and pondering most of the day. Wondering at what is right and wrong for Gods people to do to others. Then tonight I went to the meeting. We were asked what we had been reading and someone said Luke 15 which was the prodigal son. So we read and I've seen this in it
Firstly it's wrong to judge anyone! God does the judging and here's why
Both those sons knew the Father, (so both belonged to God!) and the youngest knowing his father's wishes disobeyed him and walked away. And he then suffered because of this. (Like we do when we disobey.) Now as you all know the story he came back to the Father and truly repented willing to be a servant and the Father ran to him and kissed his neck and welcomed him back. As a son!
Right here what I saw in it and I believe in my heart it's from God. Now before I start I don't mean all people because I know many people have soft hearts.
Ok we got to this part of the scripture
Luke 15:25
Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing. And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant. And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound. And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
I got to the first sentence above and I saw this
Now his elder son was in the field:
The elder son was also the elder brother and he was in the field. I saw the elder brother is like the workers who have a hard heart, and the field is the world where they are doing the work. Then I saw that the elder brother held hardness and wouldn't welcome back his brother who had sinned. But the Father had a different idea. He loved him and he welcomed him with open arms! And I thought of the discussions we've been having and about the hardness of some the workers and people. And how they would want to keep these people out of the meetings and their lives. But God may well be thinking differently, he may want them back with open arms. BTW I don't just mean f&w workers, but anyone doing Gods work in all religions.
So what I see is this, we've got no right to judge anyone, we should want them back. Still saying the sin is wrong, because sin is sin and those laws in the bible can't change for anyone (including me who had committed many) but God is the judge, and his children should be welcoming their brothers and sisters back if they want to return, and leave their sin in God's hands!
The scripture ends with this
It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.
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Post by matisse on Apr 29, 2015 20:35:20 GMT -5
Here is one link, maryh to something I wrote a while back about my loss of faith: Suspension of disbeliefAnd another I wrote about some of the process I went through after the loss of my faith: HealingMatisse I am going to read these in bit, I'm not being ignorant I've been busy. Thank you for looking up those links :) There is no hurry at all, Mary, or even a need for you to comment....I appreciated that you asked and hope the links answer your questions.
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Post by maryhig on Apr 30, 2015 1:07:30 GMT -5
Matisse I am going to read these in bit, I'm not being ignorant I've been busy. Thank you for looking up those links There is no hurry at all, Mary, or even a need for you to comment....I appreciated that you asked and hope the links answer your questions. Hi again Matisse I tried to read your healing post, but I can't find your name. Can you tell me which post number it is please? Thank you!
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Post by matisse on Apr 30, 2015 1:40:33 GMT -5
There is no hurry at all, Mary, or even a need for you to comment....I appreciated that you asked and hope the links answer your questions. Hi again Matisse I tried to read your healing post, but I can't find your name. Can you tell me which post number it is please? Thank you! Maryh....Scott Ross re-posted it, so it has his name featured most prominently. It is Post 530971.
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Post by magpies on Apr 30, 2015 2:01:44 GMT -5
This board was called REligious Ignorance,,,,Lot of that revealed. 1/ Exclusivsm .an unbiblical judgement of others living a life commited to Christ,totally,according to their knowlege and teachings. 2/numbers within scripture used to format an excuse for sects lousy numbers?.3/So under full following of 2x2's doctorine you " must" believe Christians Raped,Throats cut,Children executed,displaced are all going to a lost eternity "hell".4/ If you dont you are not a follower of the Irvinite SECT workers teachings and beliefs,or you are causing further division amongst an only way heresy.
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Post by magpies on Apr 30, 2015 2:05:08 GMT -5
IS THAT RIGHT??? what I just said??? Or are you just going to "kick against the pricks?"
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Post by maryhig on Apr 30, 2015 2:25:11 GMT -5
Hi again Matisse I tried to read your healing post, but I can't find your name. Can you tell me which post number it is please? Thank you! Maryh....Scott Ross re-posted it, so it has his name featured most prominently. It is Post 530971. Got it, I'm reading posts on tapatalk and it doesn't show your name, it just shows all the posts. I went on the main TMB site instead and found it! Thanks
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Post by maryhig on Apr 30, 2015 2:45:27 GMT -5
Maryh....Scott Ross re-posted it, so it has his name featured most prominently. It is Post 530971. Got it, I'm reading posts on tapatalk and it doesn't show your name, it just shows all the posts. I went on the main TMB site instead and found it! Thanks Matisse that post has touched me I've got a question, if you don't mind, what do you mean by people "lost out, effectively dropping out of sight"? And why did you feel like an outsider? Sorry for asking I'm just trying to get my head around your post. I hope you don't mind me asking
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Post by bubbles on Apr 30, 2015 3:12:21 GMT -5
**My apologies...having trouble with quoting! Matisse had referenced "few they be who find it."** If small numbers is evidence, there are plenty of groups who could claim they are the chosen ones based on that. The world population is over 7 billion. Of that, 31% are listed as Christian. Of that, 6.15% are Protestant. Westboro Baptist Church, snake handlers, some money scam churches, and fake healers would fall under the Protestant umbrella. You don't have to believe the only right Christians are the friends and workers to believe that there are few who find it. What about the "ten thousand thousand voices?" Oh yea..I had a flash of a beautiful song I must look it up. Thx withlove
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Post by bubbles on Apr 30, 2015 3:20:40 GMT -5
Matisse I am going to read these in bit, I'm not being ignorant I've been busy. Thank you for looking up those links There is no hurry at all, Mary, or even a need for you to comment....I appreciated that you asked and hope the links answer your questions. You have a tender heart matisse.
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