|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 30, 2023 22:49:53 GMT -5
I have a question. What is your stance on whether or not anyone can be saved outside of the F&W group? When I was attending meetings the workers preached that our 'way' was the only 'way' to heaven. Leaving the group was considered 'losing out on salvation'. What are your thoughts on that? Of course he can! Who am I to put limits of God? As for me personally. I KNOW that God's plan for me is to be in this church and this ministry. Personal experience and conviction have this settled for ME. The official answer to those outside is "oh, we don't judge those outside the truth". This has always been the standard answer. The official answer to those inside is "But God will lead all truly honestly seeking souls to The Way". The official response to any who leave is that "they have lost out" (lost their salvation). This says it all. Current members continue to explicity deny the exclusivity teaching, but this is pure gaslighting. Refer to the letter posted a short time ago on the thread "Letter from a concerned US 'friend'". The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.Yes, I know some in the group are not exclusive, but many in this category would still default to claiming it to be the 'best way' or 'right way'.
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on May 30, 2023 23:54:14 GMT -5
Of course he can! Who am I to put limits of God? As for me personally. I KNOW that God's plan for me is to be in this church and this ministry. Personal experience and conviction have this settled for ME. The official answer to those outside is "oh, we don't judge those outside the truth". This has always been the standard answer. The official answer to those inside is "But God will lead all truly honestly seeking souls to The Way". The official response to any who leave is that "they have lost out" (lost their salvation). This says it all. Current members continue to explicity deny the exclusivity teaching, but this is pure gaslighting. Refer to the letter posted a short time ago on the thread "Letter from a concerned US 'friend'". The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.Yes, I know some in the group are not exclusive, but many in this category would still default to claiming it to be the 'best way' or 'right way'. I would add another group in here. There are some who are "exclusive", but they are not proud or self-righteous. They genuinely are upset when someone 'loses out' and their tears are real. Years of brainwashing has this effect, and it is common in similar groups, and even some Eastern religions. You see the effect proselytising has on a Jew or Muslim, for example.
I feel so sorry for these people, and some are intellectually quite clever, and hold professional careers. I know of a couple, lovely people, who years later still shed tears about their daughter who 'turned aside', and reference their anguish in meeting prayers from time to time.
They probably don't want to know the events that are rocking the ship at present, because it might be more than they can take. I really feel for them. But an Ostrich has to pull it's own head out of the sand.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 31, 2023 0:10:51 GMT -5
Thanks Pragmatic - all the more reason for the workers to start to turn the ship's direction and clearly and consistently preach against the exclusivist mentality. But I can't see that happening - it undermines their entire life choice to "give up all" in the mode of the original short-term apostolic missions if it wasn't necessary in the first place.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on May 31, 2023 5:41:19 GMT -5
I have a question. What is your stance on whether or not anyone can be saved outside of the F&W group? When I was attending meetings the workers preached that our 'way' was the only 'way' to heaven. Leaving the group was considered 'losing out on salvation'. What are your thoughts on that? Of course he can! Who am I to put limits of God? As for me personally. I KNOW that God's plan for me is to be in this church and this ministry. Personal experience and conviction have this settled for ME. how did you establish it was "God's plan" as you put it?
|
|
|
Post by chuck on May 31, 2023 5:42:41 GMT -5
Of course he can! Who am I to put limits of God? As for me personally. I KNOW that God's plan for me is to be in this church and this ministry. Personal experience and conviction have this settled for ME. This sounds very much like the answer my worker sister gives. So tell me, can you conceive of anything that would cause you to question that this is the church and ministry for you? It sounds to me like a self fulfilling prophecy.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on May 31, 2023 6:03:34 GMT -5
Thanks Pragmatic - all the more reason for the workers to start to turn the ship's direction and clearly and consistently preach against the exclusivist mentality. But I can't see that happening - it undermines their entire life choice to "give up all" in the mode of the original short-term apostolic missions if it wasn't necessary in the first place. The irony being give up all is elduding to the very heart of the problem, Many religous folk would go away sorrowful, in fact some would go crazy if they gave up all of their religion......
|
|
|
Post by internationalstudies on May 31, 2023 6:13:20 GMT -5
Of course he can! Who am I to put limits of God? As for me personally. I KNOW that God's plan for me is to be in this church and this ministry. Personal experience and conviction have this settled for ME. The official answer to those outside is "oh, we don't judge those outside the truth". This has always been the standard answer. The official answer to those inside is "But God will lead all truly honestly seeking souls to The Way". The official response to any who leave is that "they have lost out" (lost their salvation). This says it all. Current members continue to explicity deny the exclusivity teaching, but this is pure gaslighting. Refer to the letter posted a short time ago on the thread "Letter from a concerned US 'friend'". The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.Yes, I know some in the group are not exclusive, but many in this category would still default to claiming it to be the 'best way' or 'right way'. An official answer from our Elizabeth (who gleefully told us she 'left the cult where she wasted years of her life'.) She even wrote a whole book about it, bless her soul. She seems rather encouraged and buoyant with the 'concerned US friend's' exclusive prophecy of impending nuclear implosions and trees being cut down and burned. The redemption of her family/relatives who are still enslaved and in bondage in the cult could be 'at hand' ! Perhaps they'll 'see the light' and be attracted to her (non lutheran) church where she 'found christ'? 😜
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 31, 2023 11:50:36 GMT -5
Of course he can! Who am I to put limits of God? As for me personally. I KNOW that God's plan for me is to be in this church and this ministry. Personal experience and conviction have this settled for ME. The official answer to those outside is "oh, we don't judge those outside the truth". This has always been the standard answer. The official answer to those inside is "But God will lead all truly honestly seeking souls to The Way". The official response to any who leave is that "they have lost out" (lost their salvation). This says it all. Current members continue to explicity deny the exclusivity teaching, but this is pure gaslighting. Refer to the letter posted a short time ago on the thread "Letter from a concerned US 'friend'". The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.Yes, I know some in the group are not exclusive, but many in this category would still default to claiming it to be the 'best way' or 'right way'. A good example of the thoughts of some of the friends was posted on Wings for Truth fb page. Someone posted a letter from one of the friends that had been abused on her personal fb page and she got a text from a devout 2x2 family member berating them. It was all about you chose to leave so don't trash my religion etc. You are trying to kill faith and you are lost was basically the text. This led to phones calls berating them. My first thought was there is only one way that knowing about the csa in the group could kill anyone's faith is if their faith was in the group, not god.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on May 31, 2023 12:19:16 GMT -5
The official answer to those outside is "oh, we don't judge those outside the truth". This has always been the standard answer. The official answer to those inside is "But God will lead all truly honestly seeking souls to The Way". The official response to any who leave is that "they have lost out" (lost their salvation). This says it all. Current members continue to explicity deny the exclusivity teaching, but this is pure gaslighting. Refer to the letter posted a short time ago on the thread "Letter from a concerned US 'friend'". The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.Yes, I know some in the group are not exclusive, but many in this category would still default to claiming it to be the 'best way' or 'right way'. A good example of the thoughts of some of the friends was posted on Wings for Truth fb page. Someone posted a letter from one of the friends that had been abused on her personal fb page and she got a text from a devout 2x2 family member berating them. It was all about you chose to leave so don't trash my religion etc. You are trying to kill faith and you are lost was basically the text. This led to phones calls berating them. My first thought was there is only one way that knowing about the csa in the group could kill anyone's faith is if their faith was in the group, not god. I don't think it would have been any different in the New Testament 1st Century church. Remember all the bits about how slaves should obey even the extremely abusive masters and not try to escape, because that would make Christianity look bad?
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 31, 2023 12:36:04 GMT -5
A good example of the thoughts of some of the friends was posted on Wings for Truth fb page. Someone posted a letter from one of the friends that had been abused on her personal fb page and she got a text from a devout 2x2 family member berating them. It was all about you chose to leave so don't trash my religion etc. You are trying to kill faith and you are lost was basically the text. This led to phones calls berating them. My first thought was there is only one way that knowing about the csa in the group could kill anyone's faith is if their faith was in the group, not god. I don't think it would have been any different in the New Testament 1st Century church. Remember all the bits about how slaves should obey even the extremely abusive masters and not try to escape, because that would make Christianity look bad? I heard so many times growing up 'what would people think'. So important to protect the facade that all is well. Don't let people be themselves because it might make the church look bad.
|
|
|
Post by chuck on May 31, 2023 16:38:44 GMT -5
A good example of the thoughts of some of the friends was posted on Wings for Truth fb page. Someone posted a letter from one of the friends that had been abused on her personal fb page and she got a text from a devout 2x2 family member berating them. It was all about you chose to leave so don't trash my religion etc. You are trying to kill faith and you are lost was basically the text. This led to phones calls berating them. My first thought was there is only one way that knowing about the csa in the group could kill anyone's faith is if their faith was in the group, not god. I don't think it would have been any different in the New Testament 1st Century church. Remember all the bits about how slaves should obey even the extremely abusive masters and not try to escape, because that would make Christianity look bad? Well that's one way to reaffirm your moral superiority, compare yourself to a 2000 year old culture....... Slavery was a natural condition, just like chemotherapy to fight cancer today, in 2000 years time it will be barbaric!, perhaps you should set up a campaign to stop it in advance of the cultural norms today........
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on May 31, 2023 17:38:25 GMT -5
'what would people think'?
A problem pervading so much of society, that is both good and bad, in that it is some form of regulation for society, but can inhibit free thinking.
Where would society be if not for the people that never gave a toss what people thought, and were prepared to pay the price.
People say that they don't want to offend their brother, but it's just as bad to be offended by what their brother is doing. So it's kind of a balancing act.
So the rules and regulations, which perish with the using, had no place, then there would not be an issue.
Personally, I don't give a toss what people think, and sure it has probably raised eyebrows with some people. Their problem, not mine. My life, not their's.
Imagine this scenario for the ladies.
Lady has nice hair down, and earrings matching her necklace.
Goes to gospel meeting, and sees all the ladies with hair up in a bun, and no jewellery. Not one set of earrings, and no necklaces. Nothing is said about it.
Next week, goes again, same situation, nothing said about hair or jewellery.
Next week, goes again, because she quite liked the message, but again everything is still the same. Nothing said about jewellery or hair. Worker mentions that there are no rules in 'God's Way'.
Next week, same again, but she now feels a bit self-conscious about her jewellery. Worker talks about Holy Spirit revealing certain things in people's lives.
Next week, feeling self conscious, she puts her hair up, and in the meeting feels less self conscious, but still notices that no jewellery is worn, and people stare at her ears.
The following week, she leaves out the earrings and jewellery, and the worker preaches about the Holy Spirit working. She begins to associate this with the removal of her jewellery and putting her hair up. But again, nothing mentioned about hair or jewellery. All women in the meeting have hair in a bun and no jewellery.
When she gets home, she thinks outside the box she's just been in, and realises that subliminal brainwashing has been taking place, and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but everything to do with cult mentality and psyche. Now instead of feeling at ease in the meeting, she feels free from the 'spirit of bondage' that was beginning to envelope her.
I know the whole thing is more nuanced than this, but you can see where I am going with this.
And unless these things also die a death, so too will the church in two or three generations.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 31, 2023 17:47:33 GMT -5
I don't think it would have been any different in the New Testament 1st Century church. Remember all the bits about how slaves should obey even the extremely abusive masters and not try to escape, because that would make Christianity look bad? Well that's one way to reaffirm your moral superiority, compare yourself to a 2000 year old culture....... Slavery was a natural condition, just like chemotherapy to fight cancer today, in 2000 years time it will be barbaric!, perhaps you should set up a campaign to stop it in advance of the cultural norms today........ If you were to go back even further, say to the paleolithic age you would find that there was no slavery. It only became " a natural condition" when religions became organised and society became patriachal. The common theme when people are being used is religion.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 31, 2023 17:53:48 GMT -5
My first thought was there is only one way that knowing about the csa in the group could kill anyone's faith is if their faith was in the group, not god. Exactly. IOW idolatry.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 31, 2023 17:59:29 GMT -5
The official answer to those outside is "oh, we don't judge those outside the truth". This has always been the standard answer. The official answer to those inside is "But God will lead all truly honestly seeking souls to The Way". The official response to any who leave is that "they have lost out" (lost their salvation). This says it all. Current members continue to explicity deny the exclusivity teaching, but this is pure gaslighting. Refer to the letter posted a short time ago on the thread "Letter from a concerned US 'friend'". The foundational problem in our fellowship remains the insistence that we are the one true way, the only Christians doing it right. The most common term used to self-identify is “the Truth”, which says it all. This reeks of pride and self-righteousness. It also creates a clear and immediate in-group and out-group (with approximately 8 billion people in the out-group) and a moral and spiritual imperative. I will go further than prior posters and say that as long as this pervasive and damaging doctrine exists, no substantive change is possible. It is not enough to say that it is spoken less frequently or directly, or hear it preached less forcefully from the platform at convention. It has clearly and cogently been spoken for generations, with concomitant and lasting damage. Redaction needs to be equally clear and forceful. There is a legacy of sanctimony, hypocrisy, and refusal to allow change directly tied to this dogma, and a level of spiritual coercion that cannot be overstated. If salvation hangs in the balance, there is simply no choice–one belongs to this fellowship and toes the line, or one winds up in hell. The current crisis, the slowly unfolding nuclear implosion enveloping the church, is the fruit. Matthew 7 lays bare the truth–false teachings lead to bad fruit. As Matthew suggests, those trees need to be cut down and burned.Yes, I know some in the group are not exclusive, but many in this category would still default to claiming it to be the 'best way' or 'right way'. An official answer from our Elizabeth (who gleefully told us she 'left the cult where she wasted years of her life'.) She even wrote a whole book about it, bless her soul. She seems rather encouraged and buoyant with the 'concerned US friend's' exclusive prophecy of impending nuclear implosions and trees being cut down and burned. The redemption of her family/relatives who are still enslaved and in bondage in the cult could be 'at hand' ! Perhaps they'll 'see the light' and be attracted to her (non lutheran) church where she 'found christ'? 😜 You really have no answers, do you, internationalstudies ? Just permanent default back to ad hominem. No powers of reason or persuasion, no doctrinal arguments, you even make fun of those who quote scripture and hymns. I notice you didn't respond to a single point of my post's content, just the same old personal attacks. Thanks to promoting me to giving the "official answers". Happy to continue. Thanks for the reminder about my book - Reviews and purchase information can be found here for anyone who's interested. Yes, thankfully most people actually address the topic on hand and have a serious discussion about it rather than deflecting/denying the real experiences of others. It is very satisfying to have real discussions based on the issues. Yes, thanks, all my immediate family has left, and a number of extended family members. May it continue! No, I didn't "find Christ" at my current church. That is just where I currently choose to worship. I first fully understood the gospel through evangelical preaching on a university campus. You obviously haven't read my book, so still speak from ignorance. And you still don't get it - Christ isn't "found" at my church any more than he's found at any other church which teaches good biblical doctrine. I have faith in Christ first, I then choose where to worship based on what they preach about Christ. I attend different denominations when on holidays or for various events affecting friends and family. All of my closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination to myself. My husband is a lay preacher so we sometimes attend a different denomination for him to guest preach. That is exactly why I don't identify my current church - it is NOT the point. My faith is in Christ, not the church I attend. Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". What's with sticking the tongue out? Are you 3 years old?
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on May 31, 2023 18:07:20 GMT -5
I don't think it would have been any different in the New Testament 1st Century church. Remember all the bits about how slaves should obey even the extremely abusive masters and not try to escape, because that would make Christianity look bad? Well that's one way to reaffirm your moral superiority, compare yourself to a 2000 year old culture....... Slavery was a natural condition, just like chemotherapy to fight cancer today, in 2000 years time it will be barbaric!, perhaps you should set up a campaign to stop it in advance of the cultural norms today........ I'm counting on your descendants to convince everyone that chemotherapy was just a metaphor
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2023 18:08:17 GMT -5
'what would people think'? A problem pervading so much of society, that is both good and bad, in that it is some form of regulation for society, but can inhibit free thinking. Where would society be if not for the people that never gave a toss what people thought, and were prepared to pay the price. People say that they don't want to offend their brother, but it's just as bad to be offended by what their brother is doing. So it's kind of a balancing act. So the rules and regulations, which perish with the using, had no place, then there would not be an issue. Personally, I don't give a toss what people think, and sure it has probably raised eyebrows with some people. Their problem, not mine. My life, not their's. Imagine this scenario for the ladies. Lady has nice hair down, and earrings matching her necklace. Goes to gospel meeting, and sees all the ladies with hair up in a bun, and no jewellery. Not one set of earrings, and no necklaces. Nothing is said about it. Next week, goes again, same situation, nothing said about hair or jewellery. Next week, goes again, because she quite liked the message, but again everything is still the same. Nothing said about jewellery or hair. Worker mentions that there are no rules in 'God's Way'. Next week, same again, but she now feels a bit self-conscious about her jewellery. Worker talks about Holy Spirit revealing certain things in people's lives. Next week, feeling self conscious, she puts her hair up, and in the meeting feels less self conscious, but still notices that no jewellery is worn, and people stare at her ears. The following week, she leaves out the earrings and jewellery, and the worker preaches about the Holy Spirit working. She begins to associate this with the removal of her jewellery and putting her hair up. But again, nothing mentioned about hair or jewellery. All women in the meeting have hair in a bun and no jewellery. When she gets home, she thinks outside the box she's just been in, and realises that subliminal brainwashing has been taking place, and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but everything to do with cult mentality and psyche. Now instead of feeling at ease in the meeting, she feels free from the 'spirit of bondage' that was beginning to envelope her. I know the whole thing is more nuanced than this, but you can see where I am going with this. And unless these things also die a death, so too will the church in two or three generations. That would not have been my conclusion.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on May 31, 2023 18:09:11 GMT -5
'what would people think'? A problem pervading so much of society, that is both good and bad, in that it is some form of regulation for society, but can inhibit free thinking. Where would society be if not for the people that never gave a toss what people thought, and were prepared to pay the price. People say that they don't want to offend their brother, but it's just as bad to be offended by what their brother is doing. So it's kind of a balancing act. So the rules and regulations, which perish with the using, had no place, then there would not be an issue. Personally, I don't give a toss what people think, and sure it has probably raised eyebrows with some people. Their problem, not mine. My life, not their's. Imagine this scenario for the ladies. Lady has nice hair down, and earrings matching her necklace. Goes to gospel meeting, and sees all the ladies with hair up in a bun, and no jewellery. Not one set of earrings, and no necklaces. Nothing is said about it. Next week, goes again, same situation, nothing said about hair or jewellery. Next week, goes again, because she quite liked the message, but again everything is still the same. Nothing said about jewellery or hair. Worker mentions that there are no rules in 'God's Way'. Next week, same again, but she now feels a bit self-conscious about her jewellery. Worker talks about Holy Spirit revealing certain things in people's lives. Next week, feeling self conscious, she puts her hair up, and in the meeting feels less self conscious, but still notices that no jewellery is worn, and people stare at her ears. The following week, she leaves out the earrings and jewellery, and the worker preaches about the Holy Spirit working. She begins to associate this with the removal of her jewellery and putting her hair up. But again, nothing mentioned about hair or jewellery. All women in the meeting have hair in a bun and no jewellery. When she gets home, she thinks outside the box she's just been in, and realises that subliminal brainwashing has been taking place, and it has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but everything to do with cult mentality and psyche. Now instead of feeling at ease in the meeting, she feels free from the 'spirit of bondage' that was beginning to envelope her. I know the whole thing is more nuanced than this, but you can see where I am going with this. And unless these things also die a death, so too will the church in two or three generations. You missed the part where she reads her Bible and how it blathers on about women's hair, and adornments, and not being an abomination by putting on something a male wears
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2023 18:11:53 GMT -5
Well that's one way to reaffirm your moral superiority, compare yourself to a 2000 year old culture....... Slavery was a natural condition, just like chemotherapy to fight cancer today, in 2000 years time it will be barbaric!, perhaps you should set up a campaign to stop it in advance of the cultural norms today........ If you were to go back even further, say to the paleolithic age you would find that there was no slavery. It only became " a natural condition" when religions became organised and society became patriachal. The common theme when people are being used is religion. You should read up on that before you spew. Try again...
|
|
|
Post by internationalstudies on May 31, 2023 18:42:04 GMT -5
An official answer from our Elizabeth (who gleefully told us she 'left the cult where she wasted years of her life'.) She even wrote a whole book about it, bless her soul. She seems rather encouraged and buoyant with the 'concerned US friend's' exclusive prophecy of impending nuclear implosions and trees being cut down and burned. The redemption of her family/relatives who are still enslaved and in bondage in the cult could be 'at hand' ! Perhaps they'll 'see the light' and be attracted to her (non lutheran) church where she 'found christ'? 😜 No, I didn't "find Christ" at my current church. That is just where I currently choose to worship. I first fully understood the gospel through evangelical preaching on a university campus. I then choose where to worship based on what they preach about Christ. I attend different denominations when on holidays or for various events affecting friends and family. All of my closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination to myself. that is exactly why I don't identify my current church - Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". 'Home truth' ruffles your feathers? Anyway keep enjoying your christianity. (that you found on a campus and and now enjoy in your (non lutheran) church (that teaches good biblical doctrine).) It has given you a beautiful christian spirit I must say. Rather intriguing that your "your closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination" to yourself. that is exactly why I don't identify my current church"Well you have done so previously. I remember you spouting about it and extolling the virtues and improvements it has over the 2x2 cult (where you wasted years of your life)Perhaps you've jumped ship and go to some newer better outfit now? Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". Perhaps a preacher or lay preacher from your unidentified non Lutheran church could help help me in this?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 31, 2023 19:03:11 GMT -5
An official answer from our Elizabeth (who gleefully told us she 'left the cult where she wasted years of her life'.) She even wrote a whole book about it, bless her soul. She seems rather encouraged and buoyant with the 'concerned US friend's' exclusive prophecy of impending nuclear implosions and trees being cut down and burned. The redemption of her family/relatives who are still enslaved and in bondage in the cult could be 'at hand' ! Perhaps they'll 'see the light' and be attracted to her (non lutheran) church where she 'found christ'? 😜 You really have no answers, do you, internationalstudies ? Just permanent default back to ad hominem. No powers of reason or persuasion, no doctrinal arguments, you even make fun of those who quote scripture and hymns. I notice you didn't respond to a single point of my post's content, just the same old personal attacks. Thanks to promoting me to giving the "official answers". Happy to continue. Thanks for the reminder about my book - Reviews and purchase information can be found here for anyone who's interested. Yes, thankfully most people actually address the topic on hand and have a serious discussion about it rather than deflecting/denying the real experiences of others. It is very satisfying to have real discussions based on the issues. Yes, thanks, all my immediate family has left, and a number of extended family members. May it continue! No, I didn't "find Christ" at my current church. That is just where I currently choose to worship. I first fully understood the gospel through evangelical preaching on a university campus. You obviously haven't read my book, so still speak from ignorance. And you still don't get it - Christ isn't "found" at my church any more than he's found at any other church which teaches good biblical doctrine. I have faith in Christ first, I then choose where to worship based on what they preach about Christ. I attend different denominations when on holidays or for various events affecting friends and family. All of my closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination to myself. My husband is a lay preacher so we sometimes attend a different denomination for him to guest preach. That is exactly why I don't identify my current church - it is NOT the point. My faith is in Christ, not the church I attend. Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". What's with sticking the tongue out? Are you 3 years old? I see, 4,800 books sold in 8 years. About 75k in sales. Roughly 50 books a month...
|
|
|
Post by fixit on May 31, 2023 19:15:57 GMT -5
It has given you a beautiful christian spirit I must say. Do you even know what a beautiful christian spirit looks like? (Other than sycophants boosting your ego).
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 31, 2023 19:24:10 GMT -5
You really have no answers, do you, internationalstudies ? Just permanent default back to ad hominem. No powers of reason or persuasion, no doctrinal arguments, you even make fun of those who quote scripture and hymns. I notice you didn't respond to a single point of my post's content, just the same old personal attacks. Thanks to promoting me to giving the "official answers". Happy to continue. Thanks for the reminder about my book - Reviews and purchase information can be found here for anyone who's interested. Yes, thankfully most people actually address the topic on hand and have a serious discussion about it rather than deflecting/denying the real experiences of others. It is very satisfying to have real discussions based on the issues. Yes, thanks, all my immediate family has left, and a number of extended family members. May it continue! No, I didn't "find Christ" at my current church. That is just where I currently choose to worship. I first fully understood the gospel through evangelical preaching on a university campus. You obviously haven't read my book, so still speak from ignorance. And you still don't get it - Christ isn't "found" at my church any more than he's found at any other church which teaches good biblical doctrine. I have faith in Christ first, I then choose where to worship based on what they preach about Christ. I attend different denominations when on holidays or for various events affecting friends and family. All of my closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination to myself. My husband is a lay preacher so we sometimes attend a different denomination for him to guest preach. That is exactly why I don't identify my current church - it is NOT the point. My faith is in Christ, not the church I attend. Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". What's with sticking the tongue out? Are you 3 years old? I see, 4,800 books sold in 8 years. About 75k in sales. Roughly 50 books a month... I must admit I've never looked at those stats - wow! But yes, that is about right, though it seems slightly high. I sell about 30-50 a month. Though the majority of that sales amount goes into the pockets of the printers, then Amazon...
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on May 31, 2023 19:41:10 GMT -5
Well that's one way to reaffirm your moral superiority, compare yourself to a 2000 year old culture....... Slavery was a natural condition, just like chemotherapy to fight cancer today, in 2000 years time it will be barbaric!, perhaps you should set up a campaign to stop it in advance of the cultural norms today........ If you were to go back even further, say to the paleolithic age you would find that there was no slavery. It only became " a natural condition" when religions became organised and society became patriachal. The common theme when people are being used is religion. The natural condition back then was that the goddess ruled !!!
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 31, 2023 19:47:17 GMT -5
If you were to go back even further, say to the paleolithic age you would find that there was no slavery. It only became " a natural condition" when religions became organised and society became patriachal. The common theme when people are being used is religion. The natural condition back then was that the goddess ruled !!! Correct.
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 31, 2023 19:52:56 GMT -5
No, I didn't "find Christ" at my current church. That is just where I currently choose to worship. I first fully understood the gospel through evangelical preaching on a university campus. I then choose where to worship based on what they preach about Christ. I attend different denominations when on holidays or for various events affecting friends and family. All of my closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination to myself. that is exactly why I don't identify my current church - Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". 'Home truth' ruffles your feathers? Anyway keep enjoying your christianity. (that you found on a campus and and now enjoy in your (non lutheran) church (that teaches good biblical doctrine).) It has given you a beautiful christian spirit I must say. Rather intriguing that your "your closest Christian friends attend a different church congregation/denomination" to yourself. that is exactly why I don't identify my current church"Well you have done so previously. I remember you spouting about it and extolling the virtues and improvements it has over the 2x2 cult (where you wasted years of your life)Perhaps you've jumped ship and go to some newer better outfit now? Perhaps one day you'll see the light too, and stop trusting in a manmade ministry and "way". Perhaps a preacher or lay preacher from your unidentified non Lutheran church could help help me in this? Not ruffled at all. Just answering your statements directly. A beautiful Christian Spirit - I'm sure you only recognise such in those who worker-worship you, don't talk back to you and don't ask you difficult questions? This is an interesting statement from one who refuses to discuss scripture and mocks those who do. Do you accuse all who disagree with you of "not having the right spirit"? I remember that tactic of workers. I seem to recall that Jesus saved his harshest criticisms for the religious leaders who were righteous in their own eyes and looked down on all other sinners. The pharisees who prided themselves on their spiritual lineage and keeping of the law. The ones who had special seats reserved for themselves at the banquets and in the meeting hall. If you want to have a serious discussion about Christian doctrine one day without the face-pulling, mocking, etc. let me know.
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on May 31, 2023 20:25:30 GMT -5
It's a book worth reading, and I was one of the early buyers!
I am a firm believer in trying to see others' viewpoints, and even if you don't agree, you will surely arrive out of it more empathetic.
Good luck trying to get sense out of IS Elizabeth. He loves to hide his sarcasm, and mocking of people, behind emojis.
|
|
|
Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 31, 2023 20:33:26 GMT -5
I see, 4,800 books sold in 8 years. About 75k in sales. Roughly 50 books a month... I must admit I've never looked at those stats - wow! But yes, that is about right, though it seems slightly high. I sell about 30-50 a month. Though the majority of that sales amount goes into the pockets of the printers, then Amazon... Years ago I started writing a mountaineering guide for part of the NZ Alps but handed the task over to a couple of others as I had too much on my plate at the time. It was eventually published and is proving very useful. The authors hardly made anyhing out of it and it could be seen as a labour of love rather than a money making venture. I suspect that is a bit like yours.
|
|