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Post by mdm on May 24, 2023 9:56:53 GMT -5
I highlighted your paragraph about the overseers not knowing. But I have say this. They must have known it needed to be hidden or they would not have moved abusers around and didn't warn the friends where they moved them too. So that in and of itself tells me they fully knew it was wrong and tried to hide it. I partially agree. I’ll answer this way. Is this not a likely scenario… an overseer is made aware of abuse. No other victims comes forward. Old generation worker comes from an era where everyone in society (inside the truth and out) do not talk about things like this… you do not confront things like this. But, he confronts criminal worker anyways. Criminal worker (real or fake) feels overwhelmingly wrong and ashamed and realizes his wrong. Overseer is conflicted on what to do. In his mind it’s a one off weird and wrong thing. He Believes criminal worker has repented and won’t do it again, but criminal worker cannot be around victims at special meetings and conventions, out of respect for the victim. So criminal worker is moved to a different state so victim can heal and criminal worker can have fresh start. In my life, I didn’t know that predators have multiple, even up to hundreds of victims. I just assumed, until I dug into this the last couple months, it was a one off thing with one victim (which is horrendous by itself) so it’s very believable for me to think an overseer would assume the same thing. I believe if you pull people off the street and quiz them, many would be shocked to know the average victims per predator are way more than what it is. School doesn’t teach us. Jobs don’t teach us. It’s awkward, so nobody talks about it. And unless it’s hit close to home, that’s not enjoyable thing to research. For instance, how many readers know that 1 in 5 predator has between 10 and 40 victims? (Source:darkness to light) that blew my mind. We aren’t even taught to not sexually molest children, it’s just inherently in all of us, right? Wrong. (And there lies a problem… ignorance and lack of education) **Everybody, please read my full explanation above before commenting. context is everything. You will see that I am in no way in favor of this kind of thinking, and it is inexcusable, in my opinion. but I cannot believe that every single overseer who has dealt with this wrongly is evil. I’m simply making a connection that we, ourselves, had made 50 years ago if we were in the same position. We, in every aspect of our life, do our best with what we know. We (on this forum) only see things from a very limited point of view. Even with that limited point of view, I still think if everybody (including those not on this forum) can collectively make decisions on how to bring Justice, if there’s unity. At the end of the day, this is all about justice for the victims, and striving for zero more victims in the future. How that looks I think is where some disagreements lie. For what it’s worth, I think there have been coverups and evil and self interest present in some overseers decisions, and that’s what I hope is getting sorted out right now. I was told by an overseer that abusers were moved to different fields in order to get them away from the problem woman or child. The offender had been tempted by the victim and wasn’t safe around them. That “used to be” their understanding. It was never the offender’s fault because they were tempted. It can happen to anyone. We have no power over temptation. It was never about the victim and their feelings. In overseers’ mind the offender was the victim and the victim the offender.
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Post by verna on May 24, 2023 10:19:05 GMT -5
Hmmm. You talked, I believe about god speaking to your heart. This seems, from what I know of the faith (and yes I was a faithful adherent), to be an important aspect. You pray for guidance. Apparently god/the Holy Spirit “guides” - helps you (when I say you I mean the believer) to makes right moves. No? I know it’s not necessarily completely specific- but it seems this is why you ask god for help through prayer. No? So in something as important as CSA, wouldn’t you think the spirit/god would guide the fervent overseer? Wouldn’t he be guided to take this seriously? But this has not happened. Apparently they needed to be taught by “man” and since that didn’t happen, you ask “how could they know?” This whole scenario just completely shatters my faith (ok it was lacking before) in the Holy Spirit and I cannot understand why it would not do so for others. Great questions, and hard to explain. Really hard. I believe God’s spirit is something He blesses us with, something He puts inside of us. I think of it as that which is inside of us that tries to influence us to think, say, act, it brings true peace, and puts off almost like an aroma. It’s very subtle though, it’s not an overwhelming thing, in my experience. It’s a gentle working, that settles in, is maybe the best way I can describe it. There are other natural spirits, maybe it’s easier to think about the spirit of hate, let’s say. If we have hate in our heart and a hateful spirit, it will control what we think, say act, and someone hateful kinda has the aroma or stinks of it. I’ve heard it said that the spirit of God is like a dove. A doves character is two things. It is very very easily spooked. when something in our heart, or life is not a good environment, I believe God removes his spirit from our life. I think this is why we are encouraged over and over again to follow our peace. And I think that’s like the spirits leading. One way it works. Is it remove the peace, so that you know something is off, and we can self examine. The other aspect of a doves personality is not easily offended. We could call this it’s homing Instinct… it wants to come back and well. Same thing with Gods spirit. He will try and try to put it back in our lives, when the environment is right and worthy it again. It seems to me like a little bit is almost exaggerated in the religious world. Like you’re full of some holy spirit, and it transforms, and is huge and loud and overrides your thoughts and feelings. But I don’t believe that’s so. I felt like I needed to explain a little bit about the spirit, since you asked a lot about it, to answer your question. I do feel like his spirit leads us at times on different matters, but I don’t know how much. I’m pretty practical, and I think a lot of things and decisions are made based on how we think about things, and what we know and experience. I do believe if we have God spirit, that enters and changes our heart and our mind and influences it. The spirit subtle, and I think its nudging gets recognized wrongly sometimes. So maybe that’s how the overseers could overlook it, if it was there, nudging. Maybe the spirit brought it to their mind, and they were so programmed by their upbringing and generation to Nip it in the bud, and not even allow that Spirit turn their thoughts towards CSA. even if they have the right spirit, they didn’t hear it, or recognize that nudging, if it was there. I think of so many in the Bible, who we read about, who were very spiritual people, who did the wrong things. Made wrong decisions. How many months would have David been committing adultery with Bathsheba before realizing she was pregnant? It says David was a man after Gods own heart, so how could he do that? And then he sent her husband to go die on the front lines of war. How can that be? How can a spiritual person do that? I think that’s what we’re facing with the overseers. Great, godly people are very very human. And I 100% believe the workers are ordained by God and called them into the ministry. But they are just as human as you and me. They just have a different place in the kingdom. It’s us that put them on pedestals and expect perfection and complete purity. That’s only found in Jesus. We expect way more out of them than we do ourselves. And yes, there has to be a certain level of behavior to have the authority to speak with, and be a good influence as a leader, in my opinion. People like to think they’re hypocrites, but they’re just struggling souls like you and me, trying to make it to heaven. And they get it wrong sometimes. Way wrong. Damaging wrong. But A hypocrite and a struggling soul looks very very similar sitting next to each other. Both fallen short, The only difference is the intent in their heart. Sorry it’s so long and I don’t feel like I was able to articulate that as well as I had hoped. Thanks for trying. This sounds a lot my efforts as a very conscientious nonbeliever. When I keep my mind on positive things and positive pursuits, I feel more peace and am more loving toward others. These feelings are illusive as you describe. When I listen to some music and read some poetry (not religious btw) or spend time in nature my mood becomes elevated. It is quite lovely. No Holy Spirit required. Can you tell me how your “spirit” is different? I did not, as a rule, have peace as a 2x2 so I find it curious.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 24, 2023 14:36:42 GMT -5
Thanks for trying. This sounds a lot my efforts as a very conscientious nonbeliever. When I keep my mind on positive things and positive pursuits, I feel more peace and am more loving toward others. These feelings are illusive as you describe. When I listen to some music and read some poetry (not religious btw) or spend time in nature my mood becomes elevated. It is quite lovely. No Holy Spirit required. Can you tell me how your “spirit” is different? I did not, as a rule, have peace as a 2x2 so I find it curious. I guess I see the Holy Spirit as different than having a good human spirit. We see a lot of people that don’t know anything about God, or the Holy Spirit that has a very nice human nature or human spirit. The only thing I can say for myself, is when I do have God spirit in my life, there is nothing that can fill that void with things of this world. I know what you mean, though, about the feelings after hearing a song. Sometimes you hear a song, and it just hits right. It’s almost like an out of body experience and you get goosebumps. I don’t think that’s the Holy Spirit. But No song or music, even friendships, or accomplishing goals, or business deals, can Fill that void. All those things make us feel good in a certain way, and fills a different void. But to me, nothing in the world that I have found Feeds something that’s already inside of me like things of God. That’s why I go to Sunday morning meeting. Because I feel him there and it feeds something I can’t find anywhere else. That’s why I go to conventions. That’s why I love my experience with the workers, and friends. that’s why I love having true fellowship with Gods other children. That’s why I try to read and pray, it feed something that’s already there and craves to be fed. I’ve been to another church at their Sunday service, and I did not feel God’s presence, or God spirit there. It was a weird experience. I have talked to people who were supposed to be religious, inside, and out of the truth, and not felt God’s presence in them. there’s been times in my life when people could say that about me, and they would have been right.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 24, 2023 14:50:30 GMT -5
One thing also about the Holy Spirit is it puts off fruit: Galatians 5:22-23 NKJV “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, [23] gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.“ Some human nature’s or spirits have some of these built into them, but I don’t believe anyone has all of these baked into the core of their natural spirit. And maybe when things are good, they can work on having them, but when they get tipped over and spilled, what comes out?
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Post by snow on May 24, 2023 14:55:35 GMT -5
I highlighted your paragraph about the overseers not knowing. But I have say this. They must have known it needed to be hidden or they would not have moved abusers around and didn't warn the friends where they moved them too. So that in and of itself tells me they fully knew it was wrong and tried to hide it. I partially agree. I’ll answer this way. Is this not a likely scenario… an overseer is made aware of abuse. No other victims comes forward. Old generation worker comes from an era where everyone in society (inside the truth and out) do not talk about things like this… you do not confront things like this. But, he confronts criminal worker anyways. Criminal worker (real or fake) feels overwhelmingly wrong and ashamed and realizes his wrong. Overseer is conflicted on what to do. In his mind it’s a one off weird and wrong thing. He Believes criminal worker has repented and won’t do it again, but criminal worker cannot be around victims at special meetings and conventions, out of respect for the victim. So criminal worker is moved to a different state so victim can heal and criminal worker can have fresh start. In my life, I didn’t know that predators have multiple, even up to hundreds of victims. I just assumed, until I dug into this the last couple months, it was a one off thing with one victim (which is horrendous by itself) so it’s very believable for me to think an overseer would assume the same thing. I believe if you pull people off the street and quiz them, many would be shocked to know the average victims per predator are way more than what it is. School doesn’t teach us. Jobs don’t teach us. It’s awkward, so nobody talks about it. And unless it’s hit close to home, that’s not enjoyable thing to research. For instance, how many readers know that 1 in 5 predator has between 10 and 40 victims? (Source:darkness to light) that blew my mind. We aren’t even taught to not sexually molest children, it’s just inherently in all of us, right? Wrong. (And there lies a problem… ignorance and lack of education) **Everybody, please read my full explanation above before commenting. context is everything. You will see that I am in no way in favor of this kind of thinking, and it is inexcusable, in my opinion. but I cannot believe that every single overseer who has dealt with this wrongly is evil. I’m simply making a connection that we, ourselves, had made 50 years ago if we were in the same position. We, in every aspect of our life, do our best with what we know. We (on this forum) only see things from a very limited point of view. Even with that limited point of view, I still think if everybody (including those not on this forum) can collectively make decisions on how to bring Justice, if there’s unity. At the end of the day, this is all about justice for the victims, and striving for zero more victims in the future. How that looks I think is where some disagreements lie. For what it’s worth, I think there have been coverups and evil and self interest present in some overseers decisions, and that’s what I hope is getting sorted out right now. I read your whole post. I had forgotten just how different it is for some of the friends. They truly don't know what most of us in the 'world' know because we deal with it and have learned. My parents would not have known about the number of times an abuser offends for example. But I have to question how an overseer that is confronted with more than one instance would not soon think that maybe they should learn exactly what is happening and do something about it. Ignorance is not an excuse. Since the friends have been trying to get the overseers to act on CSA for decades now, I don't think they can claim they didn't know anymore. As you note in the end, I do believe that they ignored it to save the reputation of the church more often then not. The fact that they got rid of workers that complained also makes it look like they did know what they were doing and didn't care. Protect the 'kingdom' was their only concern. Even just a few days ago there was a victim letter that said how Ray Hoffman is still blaming the victim for having 'mental issues' and so he wasn't going to take them seriously. Why do they believe the offenders, give them the benefit of the doubt, and still write off the victims coming to them, as mentally unstable? Also, I don't think you need to be taught that it's wrong to sexually assault a child. That's a given and if it's not I have to really wonder why.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2023 14:57:02 GMT -5
To quote Tony Montana ….. Are you talking to me ? Are you f-cking talking to me ? Bury my head in a mound of cocaine , take a big snort , pull ok my automatic assault rifle and start firing !!!!!! Are you f-cking talking to me ? Scarface . Al Pacino , fav actor . I’m sure you haven’t seen it as you should not have a tv !!!!!! You are shunned , don’t speak my name again !!!!!! Shunned forever ♾️ go hang out in Venus with Ffaaawwwkkk Stange ! You don’t exist anymore . Do you suppose your friend from Portland is in Venus yet? When I think of him I remember him saying how he would sleep on the floor. Now I have to wonder.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2023 15:04:17 GMT -5
I partially agree. I’ll answer this way. Is this not a likely scenario… an overseer is made aware of abuse. No other victims comes forward. Old generation worker comes from an era where everyone in society (inside the truth and out) do not talk about things like this… you do not confront things like this. But, he confronts criminal worker anyways. Criminal worker (real or fake) feels overwhelmingly wrong and ashamed and realizes his wrong. Overseer is conflicted on what to do. In his mind it’s a one off weird and wrong thing. He Believes criminal worker has repented and won’t do it again, but criminal worker cannot be around victims at special meetings and conventions, out of respect for the victim. So criminal worker is moved to a different state so victim can heal and criminal worker can have fresh start. In my life, I didn’t know that predators have multiple, even up to hundreds of victims. I just assumed, until I dug into this the last couple months, it was a one off thing with one victim (which is horrendous by itself) so it’s very believable for me to think an overseer would assume the same thing. I believe if you pull people off the street and quiz them, many would be shocked to know the average victims per predator are way more than what it is. School doesn’t teach us. Jobs don’t teach us. It’s awkward, so nobody talks about it. And unless it’s hit close to home, that’s not enjoyable thing to research. For instance, how many readers know that 1 in 5 predator has between 10 and 40 victims? (Source:darkness to light) that blew my mind. We aren’t even taught to not sexually molest children, it’s just inherently in all of us, right? Wrong. (And there lies a problem… ignorance and lack of education) **Everybody, please read my full explanation above before commenting. context is everything. You will see that I am in no way in favor of this kind of thinking, and it is inexcusable, in my opinion. but I cannot believe that every single overseer who has dealt with this wrongly is evil. I’m simply making a connection that we, ourselves, had made 50 years ago if we were in the same position. We, in every aspect of our life, do our best with what we know. We (on this forum) only see things from a very limited point of view. Even with that limited point of view, I still think if everybody (including those not on this forum) can collectively make decisions on how to bring Justice, if there’s unity. At the end of the day, this is all about justice for the victims, and striving for zero more victims in the future. How that looks I think is where some disagreements lie. For what it’s worth, I think there have been coverups and evil and self interest present in some overseers decisions, and that’s what I hope is getting sorted out right now. I was told by an overseer that abusers were moved to different fields in order to get them away from the problem woman or child. The offender had been tempted by the victim and wasn’t safe around them. That “used to be” their understanding. It was never the offender’s fault because they were tempted. It can happen to anyone. We have no power over temptation. It was never about the victim and their feelings. In overseers’ mind the offender was the victim and the victim the offender. Well that was the mindset when I was growing up in the group. You dressed a certain way so that the brother workers wouldn't be tempted. Men had to be handled with kid gloves because they couldn't be held accountable for keeping control of themselves. The onus was on the woman to make sure she didn't tempt them. If dressing modestly really made a difference then women in burkas would never be raped. We know that is totally false. So in an environment where the brother workers cave to temptation of course they are going to blame the victim.
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Post by Grant on May 24, 2023 15:16:03 GMT -5
Alwaysbekind can you please explain this to me. I am perplexed. Apparently the workers are spirit led. The Holy Spirit guides the faithful right? So if this is the case, how can you excuse the overseers for such an oversight. Either the Holy Spirit guides or it does not. Unless the overseers are not right with God but then that’s another issue. Thx for any explanation you can provide. I do want to say I do not excuse most of the mishandling. (I don’t say all, only because I don’t know enough about all of the different overseers and the situation) it seems like you believe the Holy Spirit should have guided the overseers to do what, exactly? I’m a little confused on the oversight you mentioned. Are you asking why the Holy Spirit didn’t tell the worker about CSA and its effects? Or what oversight, exactly, are you talking about that you think the Holy Spirit should have guided him to? If you could clear that up a little bit, that would help with my answer. In case anyone missed it. Convicted offenders still attending meetings. wingsfortruth.info/category/news/
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 24, 2023 15:35:40 GMT -5
I partially agree. I’ll answer this way. Is this not a likely scenario… an overseer is made aware of abuse. No other victims comes forward. Old generation worker comes from an era where everyone in society (inside the truth and out) do not talk about things like this… you do not confront things like this. But, he confronts criminal worker anyways. Criminal worker (real or fake) feels overwhelmingly wrong and ashamed and realizes his wrong. Overseer is conflicted on what to do. In his mind it’s a one off weird and wrong thing. He Believes criminal worker has repented and won’t do it again, but criminal worker cannot be around victims at special meetings and conventions, out of respect for the victim. So criminal worker is moved to a different state so victim can heal and criminal worker can have fresh start. In my life, I didn’t know that predators have multiple, even up to hundreds of victims. I just assumed, until I dug into this the last couple months, it was a one off thing with one victim (which is horrendous by itself) so it’s very believable for me to think an overseer would assume the same thing. I believe if you pull people off the street and quiz them, many would be shocked to know the average victims per predator are way more than what it is. School doesn’t teach us. Jobs don’t teach us. It’s awkward, so nobody talks about it. And unless it’s hit close to home, that’s not enjoyable thing to research. For instance, how many readers know that 1 in 5 predator has between 10 and 40 victims? (Source:darkness to light) that blew my mind. We aren’t even taught to not sexually molest children, it’s just inherently in all of us, right? Wrong. (And there lies a problem… ignorance and lack of education) **Everybody, please read my full explanation above before commenting. context is everything. You will see that I am in no way in favor of this kind of thinking, and it is inexcusable, in my opinion. but I cannot believe that every single overseer who has dealt with this wrongly is evil. I’m simply making a connection that we, ourselves, had made 50 years ago if we were in the same position. We, in every aspect of our life, do our best with what we know. We (on this forum) only see things from a very limited point of view. Even with that limited point of view, I still think if everybody (including those not on this forum) can collectively make decisions on how to bring Justice, if there’s unity. At the end of the day, this is all about justice for the victims, and striving for zero more victims in the future. How that looks I think is where some disagreements lie. For what it’s worth, I think there have been coverups and evil and self interest present in some overseers decisions, and that’s what I hope is getting sorted out right now. I read your whole post. I had forgotten just how different it is for some of the friends. They truly don't know what most of us in the 'world' know because we deal with it and have learned. My parents would not have known about the number of times an abuser offends for example. But I have to question how an overseer that is confronted with more than one instance would not soon think that maybe they should learn exactly what is happening and do something about it. Ignorance is not an excuse. Since the friends have been trying to get the overseers to act on CSA for decades now, I don't think they can claim they didn't know anymore. As you note in the end, I do believe that they ignored it to save the reputation of the church more often then not. The fact that they got rid of workers that complained also makes it look like they did know what they were doing and didn't care. Protect the 'kingdom' was their only concern. Even just a few days ago there was a victim letter that said how Ray Hoffman is still blaming the victim for having 'mental issues' and so he wasn't going to take them seriously. Why do they believe the offenders, give them the benefit of the doubt, and still write off the victims coming to them, as mentally unstable? I do believe a lot of what you say, and you make some good points. I have a concern with one thing you said. It seems you take one person, Ray, referring to one victim as “unstable, having mental issues” in one instance. (I’d love proof, should be easy with paper trail) but let’s assume that’s fact) In the next sentence, you go on to seem as if all, or the majority, of the workers blame all the victim as being mentally unstable? That’s at least how it came across as me when I read it, correct me if I’m wrong. If true, I think that’s dangerous and unwise to take an isolated incident and stamp it as “fact” for everyone else in their position. I’m going to preface what I have to say next by saying that when I hear of a CSA case, I automatically believe the victim. Even if it’s someone I know and surprised by as the alleged predator, which has happened in the last few weeks. I believe victims, but not blindly and always. Statistics will back this up, But only a tiny fraction, 6% (I believe I read), are proven/admitted to have lied or manufacture an accusation due to various reasons. So am I to believe that maybe there are victims mentally unstable and a little crazy that shouldn’t be 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. I just can’t take everything they say seriously. I don’t think that’s mean, I just think that’s common sense. At the same time, that doesn’t mean we can’t have empathy and treat ALL victims right. In relation to this and the other question in previous post about overseers making the wrong decisions…I always believe there’s two sides to every story, and we always always hear only one side. We have never ever heard the other side of these stories, and nobody on this forum, seems to even try to stand up, or express the other side. This is dangerous to me. This is why a judge hears from both sides before making a judgment.
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Post by verna on May 24, 2023 16:21:26 GMT -5
I guess I see the Holy Spirit as different than having a good human spirit. We see a lot of people that don’t know anything about God, or the Holy Spirit that has a very nice human nature or human spirit. The only thing I can say for myself, is when I do have God spirit in my life, there is nothing that can fill that void with things of this world. I know what you mean, though, about the feelings after hearing a song. Sometimes you hear a song, and it just hits right. It’s almost like an out of body experience and you get goosebumps. I don’t think that’s the Holy Spirit. But No song or music, even friendships, or accomplishing goals, or business deals, can Fill that void. All those things make us feel good in a certain way, and fills a different void. But to me, nothing in the world that I have found Feeds something that’s already inside of me like things of God. That’s why I go to Sunday morning meeting. Because I feel him there and it feeds something I can’t find anywhere else. That’s why I go to conventions. That’s why I love my experience with the workers, and friends. that’s why I love having true fellowship with Gods other children. That’s why I try to read and pray, it feed something that’s already there and craves to be fed. I’ve been to another church at their Sunday service, and I did not feel God’s presence, or God spirit there. It was a weird experience. I have talked to people who were supposed to be religious, inside, and out of the truth, and not felt God’s presence in them. there’s been times in my life when people could say that about me, and they would have been right. Pisses me off. There must be some type of predestination or something then because try as I may I just experienced increasing depression and devastation in living my fervent 2x2 life. Kind of like a parent has 2 kids, loves one and not the other. Rip off.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 24, 2023 16:25:24 GMT -5
Pisses me off. There must be some type of predestination or something then because try as I just experienced increasing depression and devastation in living my fervent 2x2 life. Kind of like a parent has 2 kids, loves one and not the other. Rip off. …this response seems to come out of nowhere…what part made you upset? I re-read it, I didn’t think it was personal or directed towards anyone? At least that was not my intention.
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Post by verna on May 24, 2023 16:30:12 GMT -5
…this response seems to come out of nowhere…what part made you upset? I re-read it, I didn’t think it was personal or directed towards anyone? At least that was not my intention. I’m not pissed off with you. Pissed off with God. Sorry if that was confusing. Does that make sense? You get peace and joy. I did not. I’ve never understood that.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 24, 2023 16:36:12 GMT -5
I’m not pissed off with you. Pissed off with God. Sorry if that was confusing. Does that make sense? You get peace and joy. I did not. I’ve never understood that. Yeah, that’s makes sense. I’m not sure. Do you feel peace and joy right now? At this time of your life? I wonder if somehow people explain their experience, and use words to describe it in a way that’s a little exaggerative? Maybe paint it as or make it into a huge thing. Subconsciously we just hear about it and think it’s a big old thing that we have a don’t have in our life? When it’s a more subtle, deep feeling, rather than an emotion or something we wears on our sleeve. But you make a good point, and I do not have the answer for you. That would be extremely frustrating. I believe God loves every single soul on earth. And truly wants to put his spirit inside of his children.
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Post by verna on May 24, 2023 16:43:09 GMT -5
Yeah, that’s makes sense. I’m not sure. Do you feel peace and joy right now? At this time of your life? I wonder if somehow people explain their experience, and use words to describe it in a way that’s a little exaggerative? Maybe paint it as or make it into a huge thing. Subconsciously we just hear about it and think it’s a big old thing that we have a don’t have in our life? When it’s a more subtle, deep feeling, rather than an emotion or something we wears on our sleeve. But you make a good point, and I do not have the answer for you. That would be extremely frustrating. I believe God loves every single soul on earth. And truly wants to put his spirit inside of his children. Yes much more peace now but I still bear a lot of scars. Your medicine was my poison. I have had much to be grateful for in my life however so I am not looking for sympathy. Just strange when believers seem exclusive about their deep experiences and joy. Always makes me curious and a little pissed because I did have my heart set on being a special child of God. Once you accept that you are simply another amongst billions, it is kinda cool though. Not nearly so much cognitive dissonance which is a serious relief.
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Post by snow on May 24, 2023 17:43:50 GMT -5
I read your whole post. I had forgotten just how different it is for some of the friends. They truly don't know what most of us in the 'world' know because we deal with it and have learned. My parents would not have known about the number of times an abuser offends for example. But I have to question how an overseer that is confronted with more than one instance would not soon think that maybe they should learn exactly what is happening and do something about it. Ignorance is not an excuse. Since the friends have been trying to get the overseers to act on CSA for decades now, I don't think they can claim they didn't know anymore. As you note in the end, I do believe that they ignored it to save the reputation of the church more often then not. The fact that they got rid of workers that complained also makes it look like they did know what they were doing and didn't care. Protect the 'kingdom' was their only concern. Even just a few days ago there was a victim letter that said how Ray Hoffman is still blaming the victim for having 'mental issues' and so he wasn't going to take them seriously. Why do they believe the offenders, give them the benefit of the doubt, and still write off the victims coming to them, as mentally unstable? I do believe a lot of what you say, can you make some good points. I have a concern with one thing you said. It seems you take one person, Ray, referring to one victim as “unstable, having mental issues” in one instance. (I’d love proof, should be easy with paper trail) but let’s assume that’s fact) In the next sentence, you go on to seem as if all, or the majority, of the workers blame all the victim as being mentally unstable? That’s at least how it came across as me when I read it, correct me if I’m wrong. If true, I think that’s dangerous and unwise to take an isolated incident and stamp it as “fact” for everyone else in their position. I’m going to preface what I have to say next by saying that when I hear of a CSA case, I automatically believe the victim. Even if it’s someone I know and surprised by as the alleged predator, which has happened in the last few weeks. I believe victims, but not blindly and always. Statistics will back this up, But only a tiny fraction, 6% (I believe I read), are proven/admitted to have lied or manufacture an accusation due to various reasons. So am I to believe that maybe there are victims mentally unstable and a little crazy that shouldn’t be 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. I just can’t take everything they say seriously. I don’t think that’s mean, I just think that’s common sense. At the same time, that doesn’t mean we can’t have empathy and treat ALL victims right. In relation to this and the other question in previous post about overseers making the wrong decisions…I always believe there’s two sides to every story, and we always always hear only one side. We have never ever heard the other side of these stories, and nobody on this forum, seems to even try to stand up, or express the other side. This is dangerous to me. This is why a judge hears from both sides before making a judgment. I posted what Ray Hoffman said from Wings for Truth website. If you read many of the letters from the victims they were not believed, and said to be unstable. If you've been sexually abused as a child do you honestly believe they won't be without issues? That doesn't take away from the facts, the truth. Another example of how the overseers reacted to a young sister worker in Atlantic Canada is that they made her out to be a trouble maker, mentally unstable etc. They even held her family spiritually hostage by telling her they would excommunicate them if she continued to complain about her abuse. Recently I saw a letter apologizing for what they did to her and they acknowledged that she wasn't mentally unstable and she was telling the truth. But not before they had done a lot of damage. So it's not just a one time thing. In fact if you read enough survivors stories it's a theme. Who are you talking about here that is unstable and you can't believe what they say?
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Post by BobWilliston on May 24, 2023 23:48:42 GMT -5
Do you suppose your friend from Portland is in Venus yet? When I think of him I remember him saying how he would sleep on the floor. Now I have to wonder. Might have been when his wife kicked him out of bed for some reason.
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Post by fixit on May 25, 2023 1:09:57 GMT -5
Why do they believe the offenders, give them the benefit of the doubt, and still write off the victims coming to them, as mentally unstable? Probably because they've never made the effort to educate themselves on the issue. Actually, I hope its ignorance and naivety, because otherwise it would be plain evil. CSA victims as adults can come across as angry and irrational, and justifiable so. CSA can permanently damage their brain. They can become promiscuous, make bad relationship choices and even a good relationship can suffer immense strain. They can have PTSD, mental health and physical health issues, and descend into drugs, prostitution and crime. They can be regularly triggered by things that don't affect the rest of us. Self-righteous workers and friends could easily dismiss them as undeserving of any attention at all. If only they would wake up and acknowledge the fact that their church failed to protect its children, and that is one of the most important responsibilities the church has. Matthew 18:2 Jesus called a little child to him and put the child among them. 3 Then he said, “I tell you the truth, unless you turn from your sins and become like little children, you will never get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 4 So anyone who becomes as humble as this little child is the greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven. 5 And anyone who welcomes a little child like this on my behalf is welcoming me. 6 But if you cause one of these little ones who trusts in me to fall into sin, it would be better for you to have a large millstone tied around your neck and be drowned in the depths of the sea.
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Post by fixit on May 25, 2023 2:03:28 GMT -5
I’m going to preface what I have to say next by saying that when I hear of a CSA case, I automatically believe the victim. Even if it’s someone I know and surprised by as the alleged predator, which has happened in the last few weeks. I believe victims, but not blindly and always. Statistics will back this up, But only a tiny fraction, 6% (I believe I read), are proven/admitted to have lied or manufacture an accusation due to various reasons. So am I to believe that maybe there are victims mentally unstable and a little crazy that shouldn’t be 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. I just can’t take everything they say seriously. I don’t think that’s mean, I just think that’s common sense. At the same time, that doesn’t mean we can’t have empathy and treat ALL victims right. In relation to this and the other question in previous post about overseers making the wrong decisions…I always believe there’s two sides to every story, and we always always hear only one side. We have never ever heard the other side of these stories, and nobody on this forum, seems to even try to stand up, or express the other side. This is dangerous to me. This is why a judge hears from both sides before making a judgment. You think you know way more than you do. We highly appreciate the victims who post on TMB. You can block or ignore them if you like but you'd better be careful what you say about them. Always be kind would be a good motto if you put it into practice.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 25, 2023 9:20:45 GMT -5
I’m going to preface what I have to say next by saying that when I hear of a CSA case, I automatically believe the victim. Even if it’s someone I know and surprised by as the alleged predator, which has happened in the last few weeks. I believe victims, but not blindly and always. Statistics will back this up, But only a tiny fraction, 6% (I believe I read), are proven/admitted to have lied or manufacture an accusation due to various reasons. So am I to believe that maybe there are victims mentally unstable and a little crazy that shouldn’t be 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. I just can’t take everything they say seriously. I don’t think that’s mean, I just think that’s common sense. At the same time, that doesn’t mean we can’t have empathy and treat ALL victims right. In relation to this and the other question in previous post about overseers making the wrong decisions…I always believe there’s two sides to every story, and we always always hear only one side. We have never ever heard the other side of these stories, and nobody on this forum, seems to even try to stand up, or express the other side. This is dangerous to me. This is why a judge hears from both sides before making a judgment. You think you know way more than you do. We highly appreciate the victims who post on TMB. You can block or ignore them if you like but you'd better be careful what you say about them. Always be kind would be a good motto if you put it into practice. fixit, again you show you are incapable of using context to get the point. To me, your words lose all credibility because of it. You’re almost impossible to even talk to. I highly appreciate the victims here on TMB and everywhere else, too.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 25, 2023 10:04:06 GMT -5
You think you know way more than you do. We highly appreciate the victims who post on TMB. You can block or ignore them if you like but you'd better be careful what you say about them. Always be kind would be a good motto if you put it into practice. fixit, again you show you are incapable of using context to get the point. To me, your words lose all credibility because of it. You’re almost impossible to even talk to. I highly appreciate the victims here on TMB and everywhere else, too. My moniker is “alwaysbekind” because it’s to remind myself every time I log in that I need to always be kind to everyone. even if they don’t deserve it. I believe being nice and being kind are two different things. Jesus was always kind, he was not always nice. Jesus is my example, and I need to always follow him.
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meg1
Junior Member
Posts: 146
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Post by meg1 on May 25, 2023 10:25:43 GMT -5
Allwaysbeblind you are speaking with a forked tongue when you claim to feel sorry for victims Your words ………… 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. Your routine bashing is not acceptable and 2X2 like . I have a name it’s Patricia . See ya later . Going down in a blaze of glory . Great song 🎵 1chinseswhispers You are heard. You are believed. You show great courage and patience. Your support for survivors is so focused. Well done!
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 25, 2023 10:40:44 GMT -5
Thank you so much very your kindness & support . I really appreciate those that support us victims .
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 25, 2023 10:41:42 GMT -5
Some nice verses that came to mind
Boast not thyself of tomorrow; for thou knowest not what a day may bring forth. [2] Let another man praise thee, and not thine own mouth; a stranger, and not thine own lips
Proud and boastful people will be shamed, but wisdom stays with those who are modest and humble. Good people are guided by their honesty, but crooks who lie and cheat will ruin themselves.
Ecclesiasticus 6:2 (“You shall not extol yourself in your thoughts”) says, “This forbids boasting and pride.” Therefore, boasting is a mortal sin.
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 25, 2023 11:02:55 GMT -5
Allwaysbeblind you are speaking with a forked tongue when you claim to feel sorry for victims Your words ………… 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. Your routine bashing is not acceptable and 2X2 like . I have a name it’s Patricia . See ya later . Going down in a blaze of glory . Great song 🎵 I wasn’t going to go down this rabbit hole, but you opened the door and are pulling me in, so here we go. Here’s a little mirror on how erratic your behavior is and how you come off as, at least to me. This is why you are the one I cannot fully fully 100% believe. I feel extremely sorry for you, but I do not fully believe you. I literally can’t. Your words and reactions are so far from normal or stable, how can I unequivocally believe you? And you may be 100% correct, but your words work against your credibility. Maybe you can see some of this in your own reflection… so I will hold up a mirror to you. see yourself like how you come across to some of us. YOU said(Refer to page 3 of this thread for full context) YOU: “Very hard pressed , treading water 💦 in the deep end of the pool , arms are getting worn out . Looking for a life jacket . That is where the people who are working with official’s are going . We are not sleeping , we are working very hard on this . Don’t feel like eating , weary so effing weary .. Not exactly sure what awaits everyone . Sex offender success in rehabilitation is very low . Each day , I don’t want a to check my emails . Because it’s ANOTHER SLAP IN THE EFFING FACE !!! Almost makes me want to make a call to my heavenly daughter’s father in law . Because I could ask for help and assure they are meted to have something bad to happen in custody . THAT IS A FACT ! However I wouldn’t , but as soon as other prisoners find out about these people , they will take justice into their own hands . They are the lowest of the low in jail , yes even a hierarchy in jail . Yes they are called skinners for a reason I have no forgiveness left in me now zero . Don’t even suggest I go back to the fold to find peace . There seems to be a disconnect on here . 1 letter speaks of a 2 month old child being raped . If that doesn’t shake you to your core , you enable . If you place your child in that situation you should not have kids .” (…and more, I skipped multiple paragraphs to save space) I read it and sincerely felt bad so I replied… ME: “Hang in there, 1chinesewhisperes. I think I can speak for everyone on this forum, friend or foe (such as me, who you really don’t seem to like very much)— we hope that you can find comfort, peace, and healing in whatever way you can.” You immediately replied: YOU: “To quote Tony Montana ….. “Are you talking to me ? Are you f-cking talking to me ? Bury my head in a mound of cocaine , take a big snort , pull ok my automatic assault rifle and start firing !!!!!! Are you f-cking talking to me ? Scarface . Al Pacino , fav actor . I’m sure you haven’t seen it as you should not have a tv !!!!!! You are shunned , don’t speak my name again !!!!!! Shunned forever ♾️ go hang out in Venus with Ffaaawwwkkk Stange ! You don’t exist anymore .“ Who says that in society?? This is crazy and bizarre in anyway you slice it. If reacting that way to nice words is not unstable, I genuinely do not know what it is. This is not normal behavior. That’s just one example. I still feel very very bad for you, but that doesn’t mean I have to believe you. And if I were an overseer, and this was how you came at me and reacted, I would probably send the same letter Ray Hoffman sent. I still hope you find joy, peace, and closure. I’m not even mad you lashed out to me. An unknown person on the Internet who doesn’t know me does not affect me at all. P.S. i’m not sure what I did to get off your naughty list, and your “shunned for life” list, but I must have done something right, right?
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Post by jonathan on May 25, 2023 11:22:22 GMT -5
I partially agree. I’ll answer this way. Is this not a likely scenario… an overseer is made aware of abuse. No other victims comes forward. Old generation worker comes from an era where everyone in society (inside the truth and out) do not talk about things like this… you do not confront things like this. But, he confronts criminal worker anyways. Criminal worker (real or fake) feels overwhelmingly wrong and ashamed and realizes his wrong. Overseer is conflicted on what to do. In his mind it’s a one off weird and wrong thing. He Believes criminal worker has repented and won’t do it again, but criminal worker cannot be around victims at special meetings and conventions, out of respect for the victim. So criminal worker is moved to a different state so victim can heal and criminal worker can have fresh start. In my life, I didn’t know that predators have multiple, even up to hundreds of victims. I just assumed, until I dug into this the last couple months, it was a one off thing with one victim (which is horrendous by itself) so it’s very believable for me to think an overseer would assume the same thing. I believe if you pull people off the street and quiz them, many would be shocked to know the average victims per predator are way more than what it is. School doesn’t teach us. Jobs don’t teach us. It’s awkward, so nobody talks about it. And unless it’s hit close to home, that’s not enjoyable thing to research. For instance, how many readers know that 1 in 5 predator has between 10 and 40 victims? (Source:darkness to light) that blew my mind. We aren’t even taught to not sexually molest children, it’s just inherently in all of us, right? Wrong. (And there lies a problem… ignorance and lack of education) **Everybody, please read my full explanation above before commenting. context is everything. You will see that I am in no way in favor of this kind of thinking, and it is inexcusable, in my opinion. but I cannot believe that every single overseer who has dealt with this wrongly is evil. I’m simply making a connection that we, ourselves, had made 50 years ago if we were in the same position. We, in every aspect of our life, do our best with what we know. We (on this forum) only see things from a very limited point of view. Even with that limited point of view, I still think if everybody (including those not on this forum) can collectively make decisions on how to bring Justice, if there’s unity. At the end of the day, this is all about justice for the victims, and striving for zero more victims in the future. How that looks I think is where some disagreements lie. For what it’s worth, I think there have been coverups and evil and self interest present in some overseers decisions, and that’s what I hope is getting sorted out right now. I was told by an overseer that abusers were moved to different fields in order to get them away from the problem woman or child. The offender had been tempted by the victim and wasn’t safe around them. That “used to be” their understanding. It was never the offender’s fault because they were tempted. It can happen to anyone. We have no power over temptation. It was never about the victim and their feelings. In overseers’ mind the offender was the victim and the victim the offender. What a twisted and warped understanding of reality! But they're in for a wake-up. Huge disillusionment coming their way! And it's not that they weren't told. They thought they knew better....
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Post by alwaysbekind on May 25, 2023 11:33:40 GMT -5
I did not pull you in , you made the choice to reply . AS FIXIT SAID YOU KNOW NOTHING YOU DON’T OWN TMB It was your fingers typing not mine ! Take responsibility for yourself . You continue to bash people whom don’t follow your rules & words . Final warning ⛔️ if you continue I will have my police officers read your abuse on here . I do take responsibility for everything I said. I say what I mean, and I mean what I say. Oofta, please do not call the police on me, as they will laugh at you. You will be embarrassed as they will come to the same conclusions as I have come to about your behavior. I strongly disagree that I have bashed anyone who disagrees with me, or does not follow what I believe. But I am not interested in discussing that with you, as it would be a waste of both of our time. And I do not believe I own this board, I am just a Lowly contributor, just like you.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2023 11:48:11 GMT -5
When I think of him I remember him saying how he would sleep on the floor. Now I have to wonder. Might have been when his wife kicked him out of bed for some reason. lol maybe, but he was talking about when he was in the work and having to share a room and a bed with his coworker. He often talked about abuse. I have to wonder how he's taking this right now.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2023 11:51:22 GMT -5
Allwaysbeblind you are speaking with a forked tongue when you claim to feel sorry for victims Your words ………… 100% believed? I absolutely believe that. I even think there’s at least one victim on this forum that is so all over the place and unstable, I can’t fully believe every single word the poster says. Some of the things are so off the wall. Your routine bashing is not acceptable and 2X2 like . I have a name it’s Patricia . See ya later . Going down in a blaze of glory . Great song 🎵 I will always be there for you. I learn from you daily and I value you so much.
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