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Post by alwaysbekind on May 25, 2023 11:53:25 GMT -5
Everyone has a IP address . I just laughed out loud. I am not afraid. I have done or said nothing close illegal. The only thing I could be charged with is wasting time. I am not afraid of what law-enforcement would say about my words, and, more importantly, I am not afraid of what God would say if these words got brought up to Him. If you are ultra hyper sensitive and set off by every little thing you disagree with, that’s a you problem, not a me problem, Patricia.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2023 11:57:59 GMT -5
Everyone has a IP address . I just laughed out loud. I am not afraid. I have done or said nothing close illegal. The only thing I could be charged with is wasting time. I am not afraid of what law-enforcement would say about my words, and, more importantly, I am not afraid of what God would say if these words got brought up to Him. If you are ultra hyper sensitive and set off by every little thing you disagree with, that’s a you problem, not a me problem, Patricia. Do you see anyone on here reacting to 1chinesewhispers the way you do? Maybe take a close look at how others feel about her and realize that there are things we know that you don't.
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Post by mdm on May 25, 2023 12:18:20 GMT -5
wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/25/open-letter-from-an-ex-worker/"I say this to you. If you are reading this and you say, “this is not to me. I am not that overseer.” Then please be assured. I am speaking to you most of all.
You have believed the wolf. You have eaten with the wolf. You have laughed with the wolf. You have encouraged the wolf. You have said to the wolf, “I believe you are a good sheep. You have been a good sheep to me. I do not believe you have done many of the things the little children, and the lambs, and the sheep have told me you did to them. Because you have told me you did not do those things. And I trust you, my brother. When the little children, and the lambs, and the sheep told me about you, they told me screaming, and weeping, and they were unkind about you. They did not have a merciful spirit toward you. But as for me, I see the blood on your jaws. I see the ear hanging from your teeth. But I forgive you. Do you promise you will not act as a wolf, but will now act as a sheep?” And when the wolf told you, “Yes. With all of my heart, yes. I have always been a sheep, but I slipped and have had a momentary lapse into the heart of a wolf. But no more. I am a sheep,” you believed the wolf. Though the wolf told you differently with every new act, with every new scream from a freshly wounded lamb, you still believed the wolf."The overseership is a good ol' boys club. The rest should be seen but not heard.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 25, 2023 12:23:21 GMT -5
So awesome and true
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Post by snow on May 25, 2023 12:25:50 GMT -5
wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/25/open-letter-from-an-ex-worker/"I say this to you. If you are reading this and you say, “this is not to me. I am not that overseer.” Then please be assured. I am speaking to you most of all.
You have believed the wolf. You have eaten with the wolf. You have laughed with the wolf. You have encouraged the wolf. You have said to the wolf, “I believe you are a good sheep. You have been a good sheep to me. I do not believe you have done many of the things the little children, and the lambs, and the sheep have told me you did to them. Because you have told me you did not do those things. And I trust you, my brother. When the little children, and the lambs, and the sheep told me about you, they told me screaming, and weeping, and they were unkind about you. They did not have a merciful spirit toward you. But as for me, I see the blood on your jaws. I see the ear hanging from your teeth. But I forgive you. Do you promise you will not act as a wolf, but will now act as a sheep?” And when the wolf told you, “Yes. With all of my heart, yes. I have always been a sheep, but I slipped and have had a momentary lapse into the heart of a wolf. But no more. I am a sheep,” you believed the wolf. Though the wolf told you differently with every new act, with every new scream from a freshly wounded lamb, you still believed the wolf."The overseership is a good ol' boys club. The rest should be seen but not heard. So many overseers have done this according to what I have read in the survivors letters. They dismiss what the survivors said calling them unstable with mental issues. Do they honestly think they are lying because they are really upset about what happened to them? It's disgusting.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 25, 2023 14:10:26 GMT -5
A person can be judged by the company they keep. If I knew that someone was a liar, was misusing money donated or was behaving inappropriately towards other people then I would no longer keep company with them. There are many fine people that I enjoy the company of. No one needs the company of people such as Bruer and his cronies.
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Post by getreal on May 25, 2023 15:28:59 GMT -5
A person can be judged by the company they keep. If I knew that someone was a liar, was misusing money donated or was behaving inappropriately towards other people then I would no longer keep company with them. There are many fine people that I enjoy the company of. No one needs the company of people such as Bruer and his cronies. So absolutely, bottom line true. Its a very, very, very bad case of misplaced loyalty.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 25, 2023 15:46:00 GMT -5
A person can be judged by the company they keep. If I knew that someone was a liar, was misusing money donated or was behaving inappropriately towards other people then I would no longer keep company with them. There are many fine people that I enjoy the company of. No one needs the company of people such as Bruer and his cronies. So absolutely, bottom line true. Its a very, very, very bad case of misplaced loyalty. That's correct but it gets worse. Because christianity sells the concept of eternal life, the poor punter is very afraid of missing out on that. They may well know that some of the workers are unflushed floaters but too afraid to leave. So they keep trotting along and being obediant and handing over their precious money because they are afraid. All because of a myth.
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Post by SharonArnold on May 25, 2023 16:26:55 GMT -5
wingsfortruth.info/2023/05/25/open-letter-from-an-ex-worker/"I say this to you. If you are reading this and you say, “this is not to me. I am not that overseer.” Then please be assured. I am speaking to you most of all.
You have believed the wolf. You have eaten with the wolf. You have laughed with the wolf. You have encouraged the wolf. You have said to the wolf, “I believe you are a good sheep. You have been a good sheep to me. I do not believe you have done many of the things the little children, and the lambs, and the sheep have told me you did to them. Because you have told me you did not do those things. And I trust you, my brother. When the little children, and the lambs, and the sheep told me about you, they told me screaming, and weeping, and they were unkind about you. They did not have a merciful spirit toward you. But as for me, I see the blood on your jaws. I see the ear hanging from your teeth. But I forgive you. Do you promise you will not act as a wolf, but will now act as a sheep?” And when the wolf told you, “Yes. With all of my heart, yes. I have always been a sheep, but I slipped and have had a momentary lapse into the heart of a wolf. But no more. I am a sheep,” you believed the wolf. Though the wolf told you differently with every new act, with every new scream from a freshly wounded lamb, you still believed the wolf."The overseership is a good ol' boys club. The rest should be seen but not heard. This is a pretty amazing letter. Truth. It's worth reading and re-reading. I hope someone sends this to Dale Schultz et al. And I hope he (and all the rest) can begin to see the enormity of the sins they have committed against God's littlest ones. I am a believer. Not in a conventional sense. Not in a Christian-exclusive sense. Many Christians would not recognize me a fellow-believer, and that does not disturb me in the slightest. Many people may believe that I am going straight to hell, others may believe that all that I am will rot in the grave; that does not disturb me in the slightest either. This I do know, beyond a shadow of a doubt: Titus 1:16 King James Version "They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
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Post by believingjesus on May 27, 2023 22:56:27 GMT -5
It would be a good lesson for them if they were excommunicated. And no, I am not being facetious.
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Post by jonathan on Jun 2, 2023 12:35:50 GMT -5
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Post by fixit on Jun 2, 2023 14:27:26 GMT -5
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 2, 2023 14:55:50 GMT -5
Yeah. I thought it was being dealt with and that a lot more of the player characters were honorable men. The last couple of months have been really eye-opening for me. There is an ancient story, told in many forms, and often more detail, but it boils down to this: "Life gives us three chances to address every problem. First, it will tap you with a feather. Next, it will hurl a brick in your direction. Finally, if you really refuse to listen, life will run you over like a truck." Are we at the truck stage yet?
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Post by jennyfromtheblock on Jun 2, 2023 15:05:53 GMT -5
Its been pretty obvious that Dale Schultz has been covering things up for years. Look at where he has labored, the issues and who got moved and where. You will see a pattern. We see this very clearly in the Robert Corfield situation. Clearly other workers knew about Mark H in WA, maybe not to the extent of his issues, but they knew. Mike H from Alberta has covered things up. Doyle has covered things up. If the friends talk, you know that the workers talk and know even more. It find it most disappointing that the workers have passed on their responsibility. I think they should be taking accountability for it now. I wish they would. and I don't think they should wait for victims to come forward or be forced by the friends/ex's. They should be working on this as a staff right now. If you know of a crime or are witness to a crime and you don't report it, you can be charged/guilty too. It's the law. But people get out of that in many cases. They will deny they knew anything. I agree, if you know of a crime and don’t report it, you are guilty too. I think we need to almost state this a bit blunter tho. If an overseeing worker is shuffling perpetrators around, and encouraging this culture of silence and ‘don’t ask questions’ crap then it’s no different than if they were raping and molesting as well. You aren’t just guilty for not reporting, you are guilty of assault because you silently shuffled people around between provinces, states and countries so that another person could continue assaulting new victims. What a thing to have on your conscience.
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Post by Dan on Jun 3, 2023 1:07:52 GMT -5
I bet all the Overseers will be thrilled as hell to get that letter.. It did seem harsh to me, condemning all of them and demanding they all step down seems like an undiplomatic attempt to dismantle the entire church. By over-reaching and asking the entire leadership to excommunicate themselves, your not really proactively appealing for a solution. The entire letter will likely be dismissed as they won't comply since not everyone is guilty. I know the letter wasn't formulated to be a feasible negotiation tactic, but it came off as an attack by angry investigators. When you put forward an 'all or nothing' proposal, you usually walk away with nothing... jmo
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Post by jonathan on Jun 3, 2023 1:45:20 GMT -5
We don't know the extent and contents of her correspondence with various overseers. So it's hard to really evaluate her letter.
That the investigating team is shocked at the extent of CSA/SA and in particular the covering up is very clear.
I could be wrong, but I wonder if this is like a last effort in getting them to the table. I'm sure she has something up her sleeve? More cards to play...
We also must keep in mind she has nothing to lose. Her reputation is already well established. She stands to gain absolutely nothing by concocting up an unbelievable conspiracy of allegations.
Can just imagine the huge mountain of paperwork on 400 people under investigation. Immensely immense.
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Post by jonathan on Jun 3, 2023 1:48:25 GMT -5
In the context of 400 people under investigation, we have seen very little action being taken so far. Perhaps the team is too small?
Things take time though.
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Post by stargazer on Jun 3, 2023 5:46:11 GMT -5
This ultimatum. June 8 or what? Not sure this is the best way to effect change. An investigative role lacks enforcement power so at this stage, an ultimatum seems to overreach and undermine what has appeared evenhanded. This may conflict with their (advocatesfortruth.com) stated mission. That would be unfortunate.
I’m hoping the “small” team takes a breath.
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Post by snow on Jun 3, 2023 14:08:33 GMT -5
She probably knows far more than anyone on here about how many overseers are complicit in moving, hiding and turning a blind eye to abusers. We know that many of the top overseers were well aware of abusers under their jurisdictions. Their actions allowed abusers to continue abusing and racking up even more survivors. So I don't think she's saying all overseers, but all of the top overseers because they can't say they never knew and we know in many cases that they did know and decided not to do anything about it. They are guilty of being an accomplice to a crime. Do you actually want these overseers to oversee your church anymore? Knowing that their actions have hurt many children that could have been protected if they'd done the right thing?
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 3, 2023 15:40:54 GMT -5
I bet all the Overseers will be thrilled as hell to get that letter.. It did seem harsh to me, condemning all of them and demanding they all step down seems like an undiplomatic attempt to dismantle the entire church. By over-reaching and asking the entire leadership to excommunicate themselves, your not really proactively appealing for a solution. The entire letter will likely be dismissed as they won't comply since not everyone is guilty. I know the letter wasn't formulated to be a feasible negotiation tactic, but it came off as an attack by angry investigators. When you put forward an 'all or nothing' proposal, you usually walk away with nothing... jmo
It's not negotiation necessarily...it's provocation. When Christians feel on the defensive, they counterattack and threaten everybody and anybody with threats of hell and eternal torture. The overseers think they have special powers and speak directly for God. The responses of the overseers are going to be hilarious and you know these women are going to publish them.
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Post by Dan on Jun 3, 2023 16:19:16 GMT -5
Of the 400 allegations, does any know how many were actually CSA against children by Workers? Without a breakdown, its difficult to evaluate the extent of the problem. But even going back decades, I'm guessing that less than a dozen of the +1000 Workers ever sexually molested children.
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Post by SharonArnold on Jun 3, 2023 16:52:06 GMT -5
Okay, fixit, you really sent me down a rabbit hole on this one. You did. You really did. This was a link on the page you referenced above: www.anotherstep.net/summary/summary.feb.01.htm (and all the associated links). I remember reading all this at the time. As an NPC (then and now) I know almost all the player characters, and find it extremely interesting that pretty much all the same ones are surfacing (yet again) 20 years later. (Well, except for the few God is currently having a little chat with.) I am a firm believer in pattern recognition, it has served me well this far in life. I am also a firm believer that the predictor of future behavior is past behavior. If anyone wants to know how the future for the F&W's is likely to play out, then have a really good look at all of this. The only thing that will make a difference is a strong impossible-to-ignore force from the outside. The Marg MacGowan issue is a tiny (really tiny) one in the overall scheme of things. But it is pretty clear (then and now) that insubordination (aka "assertive independence") is an infinitely greater sin in Dale et al's Worldview than inappropriately messing with small children. Back in these years, I always thought many of Edgar's reactions were a little over the top. I am beginning to question that, now, with what is being further revealed. Marg was never in my field when I was a 2X2, but I was the recipient of one of her "bizarre messages" at Special Meetings. I still remember it, and it is probably one of the guiding principles of my life to this day: She said something to the effect of "Doing the will of God is easy, going against it is hard." I totally got that then. I still really get it. Ones like Jonah (of the "Big Fish" fame) probably got it too.
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Post by openingact34 on Jun 3, 2023 16:59:51 GMT -5
But it is pretty clear (then and now) that insubordination (aka "assertive independence") is an infinitely greater sin in Dale et al's Worldview than inappropriately messing with small children.. It's not just Dale's worldview. It's what the Bible teaches. You can chop up women and children and take sex slaves all day. But the tiniest act of insubordination in met with plague, genocide, and death
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Post by Ron Walton on Jun 3, 2023 18:09:29 GMT -5
Of the 400 allegations, does any know how many were actually CSA against children by Workers? Without a breakdown, its difficult to evaluate the extent of the problem. But even going back decades, I'm guessing that less than a dozen of the +1000 Workers ever sexually molested children. Only a dozen? There’s been at least 4 in PNW and Montana since late March 2023. Care to revise the estimate?
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Post by Dan on Jun 3, 2023 22:11:29 GMT -5
Of the 400 allegations, does any know how many were actually CSA against children by Workers? Without a breakdown, its difficult to evaluate the extent of the problem. But even going back decades, I'm guessing that less than a dozen of the +1000 Workers ever sexually molested children. Only a dozen? There’s been at least 4 in PNW and Montana since late March 2023. Care to revise the estimate?
Four is less than a dozen, so no, my guestimate remains intact. I read where 5% of people, mostly males, are pedophiles. The Catholic church estimated 2% of their clergy were pedophiles. Assuming there are an estimated 1018 Workers from America alone, 1% of them would make 10 who suffer from pedophilia. I don't mean to underscore or diminish the horrible damage caused, but am just trying to put it into perspective. 99% of Workers aren't perverts. Other sexual activity and cover-ups are another story, but the number of Workers who actually molested children is likely far less than the societal percentage.
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Post by fixit on Jun 3, 2023 22:19:44 GMT -5
Only a dozen? There’s been at least 4 in PNW and Montana since late March 2023. Care to revise the estimate? Four is less than a dozen, so no, my guestimate remains intact. I read where 5% of people, mostly males, are pedophiles. The Catholic church estimated 2% of their clergy were pedophiles. Assuming there are an estimated 1018 Workers from America alone, 1% of them would make 10 who suffer from pedophilia. I don't mean to underscore or diminish the horrible damage caused, but am just trying to put it into perspective. 99% of Workers aren't perverts. Other sexual activity and cover-ups are another story, but the number of Workers who actually molested children is likely far less than the societal percentage.
Your assessment is based on the ones you know about. The actual number is probably much greater.
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Post by getreal on Jun 3, 2023 22:36:00 GMT -5
Just stating the obvious, but really, number comparison is making you feel better? And, even if the fellowship numbers are sympatico with the world, the larger issue is the cover up by a great many over decades. And, larger again the systemic mysogenistic and autocratic and yay nurturing of wrong structure that has fostered this evil. Then add to this the greater number again who are still supporting and following these overlords and then add to that all those who are hiding their heads in the sand or even forgiving them and just hoping this all this passes somehow so they can get back to ‘normal.’
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2023 22:37:40 GMT -5
Of the 400 allegations, does any know how many were actually CSA against children by Workers? Without a breakdown, its difficult to evaluate the extent of the problem. But even going back decades, I'm guessing that less than a dozen of the +1000 Workers ever sexually molested children. It's more than we would like for sure but probably a bit less than those wishing it were higher to end the Truth.
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