|
Post by Dan on Jun 3, 2023 23:08:18 GMT -5
Of the 400 allegations, does any know how many were actually CSA against children by Workers? Without a breakdown, its difficult to evaluate the extent of the problem. But even going back decades, I'm guessing that less than a dozen of the +1000 Workers ever sexually molested children. It's more than we would like for sure but probably a bit less than those wishing it were higher to end the Truth.
Yes, I don't mean to diminish the problem, even one offender is one too many. That letter to Overseers was lambasting all Workers by categorizing them as perverts. but they aren't all guilty by association. Its a mess for sure, but exaggerating the number of culprits doesn't help when trying to make an honest attempt to rectify the problem.
I understand the frustration and anger against the cover-ups though. Workers aren't police, but these reports of abuse were dismissed and not handled appropriately. Its a lesson for any future victims, notify the Workers but call the police and defend yourself.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Jun 3, 2023 23:21:01 GMT -5
Only a dozen? There’s been at least 4 in PNW and Montana since late March 2023. Care to revise the estimate?
Four is less than a dozen, so no, my guestimate remains intact. I read where 5% of people, mostly males, are pedophiles. The Catholic church estimated 2% of their clergy were pedophiles. Assuming there are an estimated 1018 Workers from America alone, 1% of them would make 10 who suffer from pedophilia. I don't mean to underscore or diminish the horrible damage caused, but am just trying to put it into perspective. 99% of Workers aren't perverts. Other sexual activity and cover-ups are another story, but the number of Workers who actually molested children is likely far less than the societal percentage.
From what I've seen, those percentages escalate very quickly the closer you look. The Pope says 2%. A very old 2004 study showed a rate double what the church was claiming. Then the Royal Comission came along with better data and their study estimated 7%. And that's just offenses against children. It's probably much more common to have predators who target adults. www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/us/two-studies-cite-child-sex-abuse-by-4-of-priests.htmlwww.huffpost.com/archive/au/entry/catholic-church-under-royal-commission-spotlight_au_5cd39cb6e4b0ce845d82dcb4My guess: somewhere around 20% of male workers, 33% of overseers are sex predators. And 100% of overseers are involved in coverups
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jun 4, 2023 12:18:50 GMT -5
Four is less than a dozen, so no, my guestimate remains intact. I read where 5% of people, mostly males, are pedophiles. The Catholic church estimated 2% of their clergy were pedophiles. Assuming there are an estimated 1018 Workers from America alone, 1% of them would make 10 who suffer from pedophilia. I don't mean to underscore or diminish the horrible damage caused, but am just trying to put it into perspective. 99% of Workers aren't perverts. Other sexual activity and cover-ups are another story, but the number of Workers who actually molested children is likely far less than the societal percentage.
From what I've seen, those percentages escalate very quickly the closer you look. The Pope says 2%. A very old 2004 study showed a rate double what the church was claiming. Then the Royal Comission came along with better data and their study estimated 7%. And that's just offenses against children. It's probably much more common to have predators who target adults. www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/us/two-studies-cite-child-sex-abuse-by-4-of-priests.htmlwww.huffpost.com/archive/au/entry/catholic-church-under-royal-commission-spotlight_au_5cd39cb6e4b0ce845d82dcb4My guess: somewhere around 20% of male workers, 33% of overseers are sex predators. And 100% of overseers are involved in coverups
If that turns out to be true, the church is toast... You can pluck out one or two offending members, but if the leadership is all in cahoots with CSA, its not just a stumbling block, its a freaking disaster.
I prefer to be semi-optimistic, I can't fathom a third of Overseers being sexual deviants. Some are guilty of not sidelining an accused Worker for sexual misconduct, but I suspect that practice will come to a complete halt.
I reckon the exact numbers will be revealed when all the smoke clears, then after some house cleaning, things will continue along with the induction of safeguards to prevent future problems.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 12:26:36 GMT -5
"In 33 states, clergy are exempt from any laws requiring professionals such as teachers, physicians and psychotherapists to report information about alleged child sexual abuse to police or child welfare officials if the church deems the information privileged."www.wbur.org/news/2022/09/28/clergy-loophole-child-sex-abuse
|
|
|
Post by snow on Jun 4, 2023 15:20:02 GMT -5
Only a dozen? There’s been at least 4 in PNW and Montana since late March 2023. Care to revise the estimate? Four is less than a dozen, so no, my guestimate remains intact. I read where 5% of people, mostly males, are pedophiles. The Catholic church estimated 2% of their clergy were pedophiles. Assuming there are an estimated 1018 Workers from America alone, 1% of them would make 10 who suffer from pedophilia. I don't mean to underscore or diminish the horrible damage caused, but am just trying to put it into perspective. 99% of Workers aren't perverts. Other sexual activity and cover-ups are another story, but the number of Workers who actually molested children is likely far less than the societal percentage.
You probably already know this but not all CSA is committed by pedophiles but are an act of opportunity for some abusers. So yes the percentage that were pedophiles is very likely lower than the numbers of abusers overall. There have been some up here in Canada, 4 that I know of and 4 in the states that I know of. That's 8 that are known 'now', but there are also some we are finding out about that are now dead, so I think it will definitely be more than 12 workers overall unfortunately.
|
|
|
Post by fixit on Jun 4, 2023 15:50:21 GMT -5
If that turns out to be true, the church is toast... You can pluck out one or two offending members, but if the leadership is all in cahoots with CSA, its not just a stumbling block, its a freaking disaster.
I prefer to be semi-optimistic, I can't fathom a third of Overseers being sexual deviants. Some are guilty of not sidelining an accused Worker for sexual misconduct, but I suspect that practice will come to a complete halt.
I reckon the exact numbers will be revealed when all the smoke clears, then after some house cleaning, things will continue along with the induction of safeguards to prevent future problems.
The Catholic Church was not toast even though cardinals (and many others in the wider church community) were covering up and committing child sexual abuse.
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 4, 2023 18:04:34 GMT -5
This comparison to the Catholic Church is apples and oranges. The whole reason for the fellowship is to be better than all others. What is the point if it is not much worse. You may as well go where there is more fun! It’s kind of a boring church with lots of no’s.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 4, 2023 19:49:14 GMT -5
I am back in Alberta , and if you think this is really is stopping against the workers , just wait till tomorrow when I lay it on lay it about Cynthia’s before her deadline . PUT YOUR SEATBELT ON ! Because it’s going down in Alberta , prior Cynthia’s dead line, you have no ideal About CANADA !!! It’s not just 12 workers Dan !!! Get ready cuz I am coming HEAVEY . You have no idea . I spent time with my cuz who was a victim and revealed it while visiting . I’m coming heavy including South Africa . Get ready it’s more about to be revealed . It’s more than 12 workers . I needed this time to let my BFF hear my l story , along , with my cuz’s . No holding back after I saw my fav girl cuz , it has been a cleansing process If I e ever needed to be strong , I was heartbroken to hear her story . So I have visited all my family . We are ready . My Pammy is so affected it blew my heart and mind . I have never seen her cry in such pain . We are full circle now ! I will move forward with my heavenly daughter and her . Seeing how this had ruined her life . I am very angry 😡 of what happened to her . I have spent this trip with my fav Calgary Transit driver She has endured us peeling back tears and pain . We want peace . I’m at peace however they are not !! So I will continue . Get ready Mr B, you know her and my cuz !!!
|
|
|
Post by verna on Jun 4, 2023 19:52:01 GMT -5
I am back in Alberta , and if you think this is really is stopping against the workers , just wait till tomorrow when I lay it on lay it about Cynthia’s before her deadline . PUT YOUR SEATBELT ON ! Because it’s going down in Alberta , prior Cynthia’s dead line, you have no ideal About CANADA !!! Welcome back!!!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 20:07:06 GMT -5
This comparison to the Catholic Church is apples and oranges. The whole reason for the fellowship is to be better than all others. What is the point if it is not much worse. You may as well go where there is more fun! It’s kind of a boring church with lots of no’s. But there are bad apples in all facets of society. Why would it be any different for us? We have always heard that not everyone at convention will be saved. I think I remember one brother worker that said 2/3 maybe wouldn't be. I thought it was a bit harsh at the time. But seems more likely all the time. Grevious wolves among the sheep. It's nothing new, but the internet age is getting it out in the open finally.
|
|
|
Post by 1chinesewhispers on Jun 4, 2023 20:22:01 GMT -5
I am doing this for my heavenly daughter AND MY CUZ !!! It broke my heart . I will stand because they can’t speak ! There will be changes I am Coming Heavy !!!
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 4, 2023 20:49:29 GMT -5
This comparison to the Catholic Church is apples and oranges. The whole reason for the fellowship is to be better than all others. What is the point if it is not much worse. You may as well go where there is more fun! It’s kind of a boring church with lots of no’s. But there are bad apples in all facets of society. Why would it be any different for us? We have always heard that not everyone at convention will be saved. I think I remember one brother worker that said 2/3 maybe wouldn't be. I thought it was a bit harsh at the time. But seems more likely all the time. Grevious wolves among the sheep. It's nothing new, but the internet age is getting it out in the open finally. Good God! Where does a worker get off making predictions of 2/3’s or any fraction. So according to these workers 99.9999 I don’t know percent of everyone who has lived since jesus died and I guess before are going to hell, and even these tiny, minuscule few aren’t going to make it, after all those no’s and varieties of deprivations? Why would a god bother for so few.
|
|
|
Post by openingact34 on Jun 4, 2023 21:36:12 GMT -5
But there are bad apples in all facets of society. Why would it be any different for us? We have always heard that not everyone at convention will be saved. I think I remember one brother worker that said 2/3 maybe wouldn't be. I thought it was a bit harsh at the time. But seems more likely all the time. Grevious wolves among the sheep. It's nothing new, but the internet age is getting it out in the open finally. Good God! Where does a worker get off making predictions of 2/3’s or any fraction. So according to these workers 99.9999 I don’t know percent of everyone who has lived since jesus died and I guess before are going to hell, and even these tiny, minuscule few aren’t going to make it, after all those no’s and varieties of deprivations? Why would a god bother for so few. Many of the workers have preached that 50% of professing people going to hell and 50% to heaven based on the parable of the 10 virgins. When it comes to the population at large, God didn't seem to care about murdering 99.999% of the population in the flood and only saving Noah and his family on the ark.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 22:04:00 GMT -5
But there are bad apples in all facets of society. Why would it be any different for us? We have always heard that not everyone at convention will be saved. I think I remember one brother worker that said 2/3 maybe wouldn't be. I thought it was a bit harsh at the time. But seems more likely all the time. Grevious wolves among the sheep. It's nothing new, but the internet age is getting it out in the open finally. Good God! Where does a worker get off making predictions of 2/3’s or any fraction. So according to these workers 99.9999 I don’t know percent of everyone who has lived since jesus died and I guess before are going to hell, and even these tiny, minuscule few aren’t going to make it, after all those no’s and varieties of deprivations? Why would a god bother for so few. There will be many saved that we know nothing about today. God tries the hearts and He know who are His, even if we don't. But yes... Matthew 7:13 KJV - Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 4, 2023 22:28:53 GMT -5
So what is your point?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 22:46:37 GMT -5
Sorry. I will try to be more clear. It will not only be the 1/2 or 1/3 or whatever fraction of people who go to meetings that will be saved, so the number we might think will actually be larger because God is saving people we know nothing about. However, Jesus said narrow is the way and few there be that find it. God is not looking for massive hoards. He is looking for people who love Him and choose Him. Edit: no one knows how many. When they asked Him if there were few that would be saved, He didn't answer that question and just told them to strive to enter in at the strait gate.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 23:02:15 GMT -5
Oops. Don't know how this one happened.
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 4, 2023 23:06:30 GMT -5
So let’s get back to my question. If any faith works if you are sincere in your soul to the essence of the teachings, why stick with a fringe, fundamentalist, less than truthful church that has boring meetings and no fun?
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 4, 2023 23:37:37 GMT -5
But there are bad apples in all facets of society. Why would it be any different for us? We have always heard that not everyone at convention will be saved. I think I remember one brother worker that said 2/3 maybe wouldn't be. I thought it was a bit harsh at the time. But seems more likely all the time. Grevious wolves among the sheep. It's nothing new, but the internet age is getting it out in the open finally. Good God! Where does a worker get off making predictions of 2/3’s or any fraction. So according to these workers 99.9999 I don’t know percent of everyone who has lived since jesus died and I guess before are going to hell, and even these tiny, minuscule few aren’t going to make it, after all those no’s and varieties of deprivations? Why would a god bother for so few. The worker I heard was more hopeful -- he estimated only half would make it.
|
|
|
Post by BobWilliston on Jun 4, 2023 23:39:45 GMT -5
So let’s get back to my question. If any faith works if you are sincere in your soul to the essence of the teachings, why stick with a fringe, fundamentalist, less than truthful church that has boring meetings and no fun? I know of one where you can have a whole lot of fun. They do preach the golden rule, though.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 23:41:45 GMT -5
So let’s get back to my question. If any faith works if you are sincere in your soul to the essence of the teachings, why stick with a fringe, fundamentalist, less than truthful church that has boring meetings and no fun? Because I have to do what God has revealed to me. I don't know what God has revealed to someone else. He is the judge, not me. I didn't say that anyone being true to the essence of the teachings of any faith will be saved. I think there are people who have never seen a church that will be saved. It is all about a relationship with God. Not about adhering to one church doctrine or another. In romans, it speaks of the gentiles who by nature kept the law. God taught them, and they had a relationship with Him. This current expose shows us that we can never judge who knows God and who doesn't. I can't even express to you how much I love the meetings. In our little meeting this morning. Someone choose a hymn that broke into my heart, and I wept for the first half of the meeting. And the messages in the Gospel Meeting were sweet, sincere, true and focused on Jesus. You think the meetings are boring, so go somewhere that is fun, you have your life to live, and I have mine.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2023 23:48:07 GMT -5
I AM COMING HEAVY!! So they should seek shelter . After seeing my cuz’s , I have many reasons to be COMING HEAVY ! Go get 'em!
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 4, 2023 23:56:37 GMT -5
So let’s get back to my question. If any faith works if you are sincere in your soul to the essence of the teachings, why stick with a fringe, fundamentalist, less than truthful church that has boring meetings and no fun? Because I have to do what God has revealed to me. I don't know what God has revealed to someone else. He is the judge, not me. I didn't say that anyone being true to the essence of the teachings of any faith will be saved. I think there are people who have never seen a church that will be saved. It is all about a relationship with God. Not about adhering to one church doctrine or another. In romans, it speaks of the gentiles who by nature kept the law. God taught them, and they had a relationship with Him. This current expose shows us that we can never judge who knows God and who doesn't. I can't even express to you how much I love the meetings. In our little meeting this morning. Someone choose a hymn that broke into my heart, and I wept for the first half of the meeting. And the messages in the Gospel Meeting were sweet, sincere, true and focused on Jesus. You think the meetings are boring, so go somewhere that is fun, you have your life to live, and I have mine.
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 5, 2023 0:02:05 GMT -5
So let’s get back to my question. If any faith works if you are sincere in your soul to the essence of the teachings, why stick with a fringe, fundamentalist, less than truthful church that has boring meetings and no fun? Because I have to do what God has revealed to me. I don't know what God has revealed to someone else. He is the judge, not me. I didn't say that anyone being true to the essence of the teachings of any faith will be saved. I think there are people who have never seen a church that will be saved. It is all about a relationship with God. Not about adhering to one church doctrine or another. In romans, it speaks of the gentiles who by nature kept the law. God taught them, and they had a relationship with Him. This current expose shows us that we can never judge who knows God and who doesn't. I can't even express to you how much I love the meetings. In our little meeting this morning. Someone choose a hymn that broke into my heart, and I wept for the first half of the meeting. And the messages in the Gospel Meeting were sweet, sincere, true and focused on Jesus. You think the meetings are boring, so go somewhere that is fun, you have your life to live, and I have mine. You can’t see it until you leave it. Then you see that the few good things you held onto are everywhere. They aren’t unique to this group. These good people would be good anywhere.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2023 0:10:48 GMT -5
Because I have to do what God has revealed to me. I don't know what God has revealed to someone else. He is the judge, not me. I didn't say that anyone being true to the essence of the teachings of any faith will be saved. I think there are people who have never seen a church that will be saved. It is all about a relationship with God. Not about adhering to one church doctrine or another. In romans, it speaks of the gentiles who by nature kept the law. God taught them, and they had a relationship with Him. This current expose shows us that we can never judge who knows God and who doesn't. I can't even express to you how much I love the meetings. In our little meeting this morning. Someone choose a hymn that broke into my heart, and I wept for the first half of the meeting. And the messages in the Gospel Meeting were sweet, sincere, true and focused on Jesus. You think the meetings are boring, so go somewhere that is fun, you have your life to live, and I have mine. You can’t see it until you leave it. Then you see that the few good things you held onto are everywhere. They aren’t unique to this group. These good people would be good anywhere. I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I have been in the world. I have been other places. I have seen other people, and there is nowhere else MY heart gets fed. I am not speaking about anyone else. I am speaking about me. There is no where else that makes my heart sing with love, joy, and peace. There are people I enjoy being around, but not like those I share true fellowship with. I have sat in services, but they did nothing for me, and I tried to get something. I am not saying those are wrong, but they did nothing for me. But to each his own.
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Jun 5, 2023 0:16:16 GMT -5
So let’s get back to my question. If any faith works if you are sincere in your soul to the essence of the teachings, why stick with a fringe, fundamentalist, less than truthful church that has boring meetings and no fun?
Its faith in Christ and his teachings that matter. Faith in a church that seldom teaches from the bible, is not aligned with Christ, or manipulates doctrine after the traditions of men, can be phony fronts for money-making hypocrites.
The bible warns; "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." ( 1 John 4:1)
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves." (Matthew 7:15) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple." (Romans 16: 17-19).. Also Philippians 3:17-21.
There's a huge difference between the teachings of Catholics, Latter Day Saints, Seventh-day Adventist, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc.. Being sincere and putting your faith in 'their' teachings may be far worse than a fringe group of fundamentalist. "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39)
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 5, 2023 0:29:20 GMT -5
You can’t see it until you leave it. Then you see that the few good things you held onto are everywhere. They aren’t unique to this group. These good people would be good anywhere. I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I have been in the world. I have been other places. I have seen other people, and there is nowhere else MY heart gets fed. I am not speaking about anyone else. I am speaking about me. There is no where else that makes my heart sing with love, joy, and peace. There are people I enjoy being around, but not like those I share true fellowship with. I have sat in services, but they did nothing for me, and I tried to get something. I am not saying those are wrong, but they did nothing for me. But to each his own.
|
|
|
Post by getreal on Jun 5, 2023 0:30:30 GMT -5
You can’t see it until you leave it. Then you see that the few good things you held onto are everywhere. They aren’t unique to this group. These good people would be good anywhere. I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I have been in the world. I have been other places. I have seen other people, and there is nowhere else MY heart gets fed. I am not speaking about anyone else. I am speaking about me. There is no where else that makes my heart sing with love, joy, and peace. There are people I enjoy being around, but not like those I share true fellowship with. I have sat in services, but they did nothing for me, and I tried to get something. I am not saying those are wrong, but they did nothing for me. But to each his own. A group with a long history of covering up a abuse of all kinds is your own?
|
|