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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 4:44:35 GMT -5
The reality is not just one, or two, or three, but multiple overseers are thought to be enabling or involved in cover-up of some for of abuse, according to various posts on these pages.
And it seems the number could increase, and also likely more evidence could come forward.
So far not one has acknowledged this.
As troubling as all this already are, I'm also troubled and perplexed that they don't realized the wrong of it.
Speaking from own experience, putting it straight and direct to them gets you only a cold shoulder.
What can be done? And how to go about it?
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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 4:45:17 GMT -5
How many of the overseers and workers enabled or are involved in cover-ups?
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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 4:45:53 GMT -5
Don't these overseers and workers realize they themselves undermine the confidence of the workers on their staff and the friends they're responsible for?
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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 4:46:29 GMT -5
To what extent are the friends involved or enabling these cover-ups?
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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 4:50:44 GMT -5
The incident in Minnesota showed that going to two overseers of another state got themselves accused of gossip, and nothing can from the immorality that was complained about.
Why do the perpetrators always get the best benefit of the doubt, while the victims/plaintiffs are not believed?
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Post by Pragmatic on May 20, 2023 5:03:31 GMT -5
I hear your frustration Jonathan, as I'm sure many do.
Evey witness strengthens the case. So in other words, more and more with irrefutable evidence need to keep on banging down the doors. But a vested interest in the status quo is too strong sometimes. Just like how dictators in countries do not want to institute change, because then their deeds will be known, and what ensues will not be pleasant. We just need to look at Syria, Iran, Zimbabwe, Myanmar, and of course Putin. Libya and Iraq are examples of what does happen when they they are toppled.
I think that sometimes, naming and shaming has it's place, and enablers, and hiders of perpetrators need to be flushed out.
We are talking about one of the most heinous crimes. One that Jesus said with a child in among the disciples, if anyone so much as harms a hair on the child, better for a millstone to placed around the neck, and the person cast into the water. Jesus wasn't saying to treat a harmer softly!
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 9:04:09 GMT -5
To what extent are the friends involved or enabling these cover-ups? I think perhaps the friends often just look the other way. The friends for the most part don’t hold workers accountable. They don’t feel that is their place. So, it’s partly a system issue. There is a lack of accountability. Do the workers hold one another accountable? Maybe, but not always. The thing is, there are many workers who are innocent. Maybe what needs to happen is they need to hold all accountable and speak up more. Maybe they need to take a look at the whole celibacy requirement and realize it’s not healthy for many people?
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Post by thirtyseven on May 20, 2023 9:22:34 GMT -5
I hope there is enough evidence to convict tla lot of these men and women who have sacrificed these little children for "kingdom's sake"
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Post by mdm on May 20, 2023 10:24:24 GMT -5
How many of the overseers and workers enabled or are involved in cover-ups? If they are not directly involved, but are aware, are they still responsible?
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Post by jonathan on May 20, 2023 10:35:08 GMT -5
Sometimes having knowledge of something done wrong makes one complicit unless one reports it.
Suppose they could be asked what did you do about it? Knowing people are suffering, or likely to suffer and you keep quiet? Looks like a spineless jelly blob to me... Notikeky such an o/s will take a stand for what is right unless the majority props him up..
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 11:22:31 GMT -5
How many of the overseers and workers enabled or are involved in cover-ups? If they are not directly involved, but are aware, are they still responsible? Good question. Well, it's like this. If you are aware of a grievous wrong, like say you know your neighbors kids are being abused....what should you do? I know what I should do. I should report it to CPS. As a neighbor in my state I am not required by law to do that, (as just a neighbor), but as a concerned adult citizen, I would feel behooved to do that. Keep in mind, however, CPS may not go in a just fix things. In fact, they usually don't! Which is unfortunate. It's a real problem. No one has all the answers. But, we have to do what we can to fight for these kids. We need better parents in our society. We need more good foster homes. We need CPS to do a better job in many cases. It's truly sickening when children are abused. If a person IS in a place or responsibility and they are aware of abuse going on with their workers, they should report it. To me, that's very clear. And they should remove the worker from the work while it's being investigated. If they fail to do anything, they are just looking the other way. And that's how abuse is allowed to go on and be covered up.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 14:31:15 GMT -5
Another thing to add about CPS. They don't just go in and remove kids from abusive situations. They usually build a case first. Which is unfortunate in some ways...we wish they would remove kids sooner than they do...like before a toddler gets murdered! Yes, that has happened way too much. But, on the other hand...they can't just remove kids without have a good case to do so. So, it can take awhile is quite a process. There are way too many kids in abusive situations and it's truly sad and sickening. But, once certain parents get on CPS's 'radar' at least they have something. It's a starting point.
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Post by scooter123 on May 20, 2023 15:31:49 GMT -5
Personally, as a parent, how do these male workers get access to kids unsupervised? Especially over and over again?
Secondly, as a parent, I would do serious physical harm to a creep that did do something to my kid. Overseer or not.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 16:31:54 GMT -5
Personally, as a parent, how do these male workers get access to kids unsupervised? Especially over and over again? Secondly, as a parent, I would do serious physical harm to a creep that did do something to my kid. Overseer or not. I believe it’s a God given instinct. Touch my kid, you die. It’s that strong.
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Post by mdm on May 20, 2023 16:37:06 GMT -5
If they are not directly involved, but are aware, are they still responsible? Good question. Well, it's like this. If you are aware of a grievous wrong, like say you know your neighbors kids are being abused....what should you do? I know what I should do. I should report it to CPS. As a neighbor in my state I am not required by law to do that, (as just a neighbor), but as a concerned adult citizen, I would feel behooved to do that. Keep in mind, however, CPS may not go in a just fix things. In fact, they usually don't! Which is unfortunate. It's a real problem. No one has all the answers. But, we have to do what we can to fight for these kids. We need better parents in our society. We need more good foster homes. We need CPS to do a better job in many cases. It's truly sickening when children are abused. If a person IS in a place or responsibility and they are aware of abuse going on with their workers, they should report it. To me, that's very clear. And they should remove the worker from the work while it's being investigated. If they fail to do anything, they are just looking the other way. And that's how abuse is allowed to go on and be covered up. My question was about workers - are they responsible if they are not directly involved in the cover up, but are aware of it.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 16:54:12 GMT -5
Good question. Well, it's like this. If you are aware of a grievous wrong, like say you know your neighbors kids are being abused....what should you do? I know what I should do. I should report it to CPS. As a neighbor in my state I am not required by law to do that, (as just a neighbor), but as a concerned adult citizen, I would feel behooved to do that. Keep in mind, however, CPS may not go in a just fix things. In fact, they usually don't! Which is unfortunate. It's a real problem. No one has all the answers. But, we have to do what we can to fight for these kids. We need better parents in our society. We need more good foster homes. We need CPS to do a better job in many cases. It's truly sickening when children are abused. If a person IS in a place or responsibility and they are aware of abuse going on with their workers, they should report it. To me, that's very clear. And they should remove the worker from the work while it's being investigated. If they fail to do anything, they are just looking the other way. And that's how abuse is allowed to go on and be covered up. My question was about workers - are they responsible if they are not directly involved in the cover up, but are aware of it. I think anyone that is aware of these abuses should feel responsibility to do something. Even if they were not part of the actual cover up. The more people that stay silent in the face of awareness, the more abuse goes on and not stopped.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 20, 2023 16:55:18 GMT -5
In Canada yes ! You will go down with the offender . The worker’s know that . Perhaps they think silent is better .
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 16:57:16 GMT -5
In Canada yes ! You will go down with the offender . The worker’s know that . Perhaps they think silent is better . I love Canada! Always have. Wonderful people. Wonderful place.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 17:08:00 GMT -5
Okay. I will share something that happened to me, although it was a work situation, rather than in the truth. But there are parallels.
There was a "problem" person where I used to work. And, he got away with it for a long time because of who he was.
Compared to many of my co-workers, I was fairly new. They had been there for YEARS. And they knew about his "habits", shall we say? But nothing was ever done about it. One day, he crossed the line with me. And oh boy. It was not pretty.
So, what did I do? I confronted him in person with a witness. Then, I wrote him up. I was warned by my boss that if I wrote him up it would go all the way to the top and she said "Are you willing for that and what that involves?" I felt like she was warning me not to do that. She probably wouldn't have done that. Well, I was at a point where I was willing to lay that on the line. Why? Because, he had to be stopped. He was dangerous.
So, I wrote him up, it went to the top and I got a call from my manager that the board of directors was totally backing me up on the matter. And...he was stopped.
Abuse is abuse. People shouldn't be enabled to abuse others. It's not right.
What can you live with?
Most of my co-workers who had been there much longer than me just put up with him. I was the first person to ever do anything about it. Was I scared? Hmmm. Not really. I knew what I had to do.
People have got to get over the FEAR. Fear of stepping on toes. Fear of losing your 'place'. Fear of "offending". In the name of what is right, fear takes a back seat.
When we think about children being abused......if we have knowledge it's going on or that it is being covered up and we don't do anything, we are part of the problem. The more people that don't do anything, the worse it becomes.
I suppose I could have built resentment toward my co-workers because none of them before me really did anything to address the problem. But, I also understood that they were afraid to and maybe didn't think they could do anything.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 20, 2023 17:12:21 GMT -5
Thx for sharing
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 17:17:49 GMT -5
When someone says to me, "There's nothing we can do..." Well, okay, maybe that's how THEY feel....but in the face of blatant wrongdoing....my attitude is more like, "We'll see about that..." And then I would proceed to do whatever I can within my power to make things happen to address the wrong. Many have told me I should be a manager because I don't just look the other way when there are problems. I can't.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 18:21:27 GMT -5
I think a big part of the problem is apathy. People don’t think they can do anything to help or change. So, they don’t. It’s an ailment we see across our society and in other societies. If people realize there is something they can do, wouldn’t they be more likely to? The tendency is to avoid. That’s a type of mindset. Maybe it becomes part of a culture.
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Post by getreal on May 20, 2023 19:12:26 GMT -5
If they are not directly involved, but are aware, are they still responsible? Good question. Well, it's like this. If you are aware of a grievous wrong, like say you know your neighbors kids are being abused....what should you do? I know what I should do. I should report it to CPS. As a neighbor in my state I am not required by law to do that, (as just a neighbor), but as a concerned adult citizen, I would feel behooved to do that. Keep in mind, however, CPS may not go in a just fix things. In fact, they usually don't! Which is unfortunate. It's a real problem. No one has all the answers. But, we have to do what we can to fight for these kids. We need better parents in our society. We need more good foster homes. We need CPS to do a better job in many cases. It's truly sickening when children are abused. If a person IS in a place or responsibility and they are aware of abuse going on with their workers, they should report it. To me, that's very clear. And they should remove the worker from the work while it's being investigated. If they fail to do anything, they are just looking the other way. And that's how abuse is allowed to go on and be covered up. Once you receive training re child abuse you are a mandated reporter where I am. I have made cps calls on clients and a neighbor once. What we have always been told is if you see or hear something and it concerns you report it. It opens a file on that child and every call of concern is added to that file and sometimes it’s the accumulative evidence that prompts a visit by cps vs one actionable report. Just report.
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Post by mdm on May 20, 2023 19:26:29 GMT -5
Good question. Well, it's like this. If you are aware of a grievous wrong, like say you know your neighbors kids are being abused....what should you do? I know what I should do. I should report it to CPS. As a neighbor in my state I am not required by law to do that, (as just a neighbor), but as a concerned adult citizen, I would feel behooved to do that. Keep in mind, however, CPS may not go in a just fix things. In fact, they usually don't! Which is unfortunate. It's a real problem. No one has all the answers. But, we have to do what we can to fight for these kids. We need better parents in our society. We need more good foster homes. We need CPS to do a better job in many cases. It's truly sickening when children are abused. If a person IS in a place or responsibility and they are aware of abuse going on with their workers, they should report it. To me, that's very clear. And they should remove the worker from the work while it's being investigated. If they fail to do anything, they are just looking the other way. And that's how abuse is allowed to go on and be covered up. Once you receive training re child abuse you are a mandated reporter where I am. I have made cps calls on clients and a neighbor once. What we have always been told is if you see or hear something and it concerns you report it. It opens a file on that child and every call of concern is added to that file and sometimes it’s the accumulative evidence that prompts a visit by cps vs one actionable report. Just report. When I "asked that", I was just trying to point to the fact that those who turn a blind eye are just as responsible as those who cover up abuses. From my point of view, one is a mandatory reporter, defender, action-taker - whatever it takes to protect children, regardless of laws or training. Not because it's dictated by laws (what if there are no laws??), but because it's the right thing to do. Since when is sexual abuse of a child not so horribly horrifyingly wrong and despicable that we can just ignore it??? Nobody should have to be trained or mandated in order to be horrified and leap into action. Workers don't need training. They need a heart and a conscience. Integrity.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 19:34:26 GMT -5
Once you receive training re child abuse you are a mandated reporter where I am. I have made cps calls on clients and a neighbor once. What we have always been told is if you see or hear something and it concerns you report it. It opens a file on that child and every call of concern is added to that file and sometimes it’s the accumulative evidence that prompts a visit by cps vs one actionable report. Just report. When I "asked that", I was just trying to point to the fact that those who turn a blind eye are just as responsible as those who cover up abuses. From my point of view, one is a mandatory reporter, defender, action-taker - whatever it takes to protect children, regardless of laws or training. Not because it's dictated by laws (what if there are no laws??), but because it's the right thing to do. Since when is sexual abuse of a child not so horribly horrifyingly wrong and despicable that we can just ignore it??? Nobody should have to be trained or mandated in order to be horrified and leap into action. Workers don't need training. They need a heart and a conscience. Integrity. Yes, good points. What moves people to act? It does take something within you to take action. There is actually a lot of apathy with society in general. There was a study done once many years ago on a lady in NYC that was being assaulted....people heard the screams and cries....but NO ONE did anything! She was killed as a result of the assault and raped. It went on for awhile. NO ONE did anything to help. So, a study was done on this concept of WHY people didn't intervene to help someone that is literally being assaulted and killed with their awareness. Now, I know there are many places where people just shut their ears or look the other way and don't do anything to help victims. That concept is foreign to me. Sadly, it's not foreign to many people and places. It does my heart good when everyday heroes step up. Restores my faith in humanity a bit.
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peggysullivan
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Post by peggysullivan on May 20, 2023 19:38:13 GMT -5
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Post by getreal on May 20, 2023 19:39:46 GMT -5
Good question. Well, it's like this. If you are aware of a grievous wrong, like say you know your neighbors kids are being abused....what should you do? I know what I should do. I should report it to CPS. As a neighbor in my state I am not required by law to do that, (as just a neighbor), but as a concerned adult citizen, I would feel behooved to do that. Keep in mind, however, CPS may not go in a just fix things. In fact, they usually don't! Which is unfortunate. It's a real problem. No one has all the answers. But, we have to do what we can to fight for these kids. We need better parents in our society. We need more good foster homes. We need CPS to do a better job in many cases. It's truly sickening when children are abused. If a person IS in a place or responsibility and they are aware of abuse going on with their workers, they should report it. To me, that's very clear. And they should remove the worker from the work while it's being investigated. If they fail to do anything, they are just looking the other way. And that's how abuse is allowed to go on and be covered up. My question was about workers - are they responsible if they are not directly involved in the cover up, but are aware of it. In my time in the work I heard of 2 older brothers and the story was they left a trail of abuse where ever they want. As a younger sister heading this I never felt I could ask an overseer after all it was just a rumor. My brain was addled, confused, stressed to the max and barely coping. Did anyone else ask. Don’t know. Don’t think it would stay quiet now of course and it shouldn’t. The point is lots of workers know something. Always have. They talk.
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Post by getreal on May 20, 2023 19:51:55 GMT -5
The reality is not just one, or two, or three, but multiple overseers are thought to be enabling or involved in cover-up of some for of abuse, according to various posts on these pages. And it seems the number could increase, and also likely more evidence could come forward. So far not one has acknowledged this. As troubling as all this already are, I'm also troubled and perplexed that they don't realized the wrong of it. Speaking from own experience, putting it straight and direct to them gets you only a cold shoulder. What can be done? And how to go about it? Somehow friends as a group need to start communicating with each other and coordinating. Do they need their own board? Who could set up a board? Lots of people won’t do social media anymore. Old people for ex. They need to take on the workers collectively in my opinion. Make a call for suggestions and vote. In my opinion stop giving money. Stop opening up your homes. Workers do not own this church you know. They are supposed to be servant’s in it. They have over stepped and they need a good sound wake up call. You can’t support overseer’s who are not doing what is right but you also can’t support those workers who are following them.
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