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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2023 15:39:00 GMT -5
I don't see any reliable evidence that the 2x2s have ever had a rash of ministers convicted or otherwise convincingly found guilty for SA/CSA in a short time period until presumably now. Sexual abuse is unfortunately not 'peculiar' to any organization but rather is widespread in the U.S. per RAINN, and I dare say it's more frequent outside of churches than within. Probably most of it happens on the streets and in the privacy of family homes, most likely predominantly in families that lack Judeo-Christian moral foundations rather than in Christian homes. It is frankly the organizations (including large churches) that never come to a moment like this that I worry about. Cleaning house is necessary whether it is through an always present program or in sudden 'Me Too' waves like what the 2x2s are seeing right now. There are some things that the organization could do to limit the incidence of these problems. For example, married couples are not permitted to serve as workers. I worry that this comes into conflict with Paul's warning that in the last days false teachers would forbid to eat meat or marry--a line often used out of context online in an effort to discredit the 2x2s. On the other hand, you can see why it is not desirable for married men to be traveling ministers, or for parents to abandon their families to serve on a mission. When couples and families are involved, it should be 'all or nothing'. But to lack the option could be a source of problems. Secrecy is of course also a concern. It can be easy to slip into a state of near ease with simply not knowing. However, those who love the truth will do what they can to ensure that they aren't unwittingly doing wrong by their own participation. Not 'letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing' is valuable in that much time can be wasted searching for information, much confusion brought about by 'over-coordination', and much strife stirred up by talebarers and busybodies. What I think this principle does not speak to is your own personal conduct within an organization. We are accountable for willful ignorance. Even the surrounding society claims to know this. The elevated status of workers and monitoring of progress is also an issue. I think the right way to put it, given that all of the saints are 'holy priests' of God, is that the workers are specialized and dedicated. That dedication consists in some degree of selling everything you own (if indeed a worker even does so), but it consists more profoundly in the dedication of your whole allotment of time to ministering not only to the saints but also to the unconverted and to those who have not heard the Gospel at all. 'Worker' as a title rather than a lifestyle is an empty tradition and reinvigoration is needed for workers to reaffirm a rightfully elevated status. Otherwise, the organization is in danger of losing effective structure and becomes political. The reason you are seeing more of this recently is because of the social changes brought about by modern technology. The internet is a wonderful tool for shining the light on the dark corners of peoples lives. Just ask Dean Bruer. Your assumption that judeo/christian families have some sort of better morals than any other people is crass and is self serving. It is this belief that leads to the acceptance of immoral behaviour in the very churches you think are somehow better than the rest of humanity. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 3, 2023 15:41:04 GMT -5
Semi correct. Add to this the lie that Elders were told at the time. It was seeing if sister workers were scriptural, and after the nine months had passed, they were told that that there was a clear sign that they were. (Absence of baby bumps was a funny way of interpreting the clear sign). This was one of the lies that caused my grandfather to leave, when he found out about it. This was confirmed to my father also by Tom Hewson.
A lie, not unlike the one told when Demetrius came here from Greece....supposedly to learn the language. Learning the language was merely a bonus, the prime reason was the situation in Greece at the time.
And the lie about Hymns Old and New being updated in 1987 for copyright reasons. There were multiple reasons, including expunging Trinity references, Sing and Shout, Cooney credits, including more hymns written by workers such as Ken P. Copyright issues were only part.
Did the senior workers in the US and elsewhere think people were stupid? These things left a bitter taste in a number of senior professing people. My Uncle said, "I don't like being lied to."
A wee question. Did all the sister workers prior to the visit of Irvine, go out in the work after the nine months was up or did some call it a day? That I don't know, and I never thought to ask the question. I would assume that some probably called it a day though. |
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Post by lk1243 on May 3, 2023 16:03:46 GMT -5
I don't see any reliable evidence that the 2x2s have ever had a rash of ministers convicted or otherwise convincingly found guilty for SA/CSA in a short time period until presumably now. Sexual abuse is unfortunately not 'peculiar' to any organization but rather is widespread in the U.S. per RAINN, and I dare say it's more frequent outside of churches than within. Probably most of it happens on the streets and in the privacy of family homes, most likely predominantly in families that lack Judeo-Christian moral foundations rather than in Christian homes. It is frankly the organizations (including large churches) that never come to a moment like this that I worry about. Cleaning house is necessary whether it is through an always present program or in sudden 'Me Too' waves like what the 2x2s are seeing right now. There are some things that the organization could do to limit the incidence of these problems. For example, married couples are not permitted to serve as workers. I worry that this comes into conflict with Paul's warning that in the last days false teachers would forbid to eat meat or marry--a line often used out of context online in an effort to discredit the 2x2s. On the other hand, you can see why it is not desirable for married men to be traveling ministers, or for parents to abandon their families to serve on a mission. When couples and families are involved, it should be 'all or nothing'. But to lack the option could be a source of problems. Secrecy is of course also a concern. It can be easy to slip into a state of near ease with simply not knowing. However, those who love the truth will do what they can to ensure that they aren't unwittingly doing wrong by their own participation. Not 'letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing' is valuable in that much time can be wasted searching for information, much confusion brought about by 'over-coordination', and much strife stirred up by talebarers and busybodies. What I think this principle does not speak to is your own personal conduct within an organization. We are accountable for willful ignorance. Even the surrounding society claims to know this. The elevated status of workers and monitoring of progress is also an issue. I think the right way to put it, given that all of the saints are 'holy priests' of God, is that the workers are specialized and dedicated. That dedication consists in some degree of selling everything you own (if indeed a worker even does so), but it consists more profoundly in the dedication of your whole allotment of time to ministering not only to the saints but also to the unconverted and to those who have not heard the Gospel at all. 'Worker' as a title rather than a lifestyle is an empty tradition and reinvigoration is needed for workers to reaffirm a rightfully elevated status. Otherwise, the organization is in danger of losing effective structure and becomes political. The reason you are seeing more of this recently is because of the social changes brought about by modern technology. The internet is a wonderful tool for shining the light on the dark corners of peoples lives. Just ask Dean Bruer. Your assumption that judeo/christian families have some sort of better morals than any other people is crass and is self serving. It is this belief that leads to the acceptance of immoral behaviour in the very churches you think are somehow better than the rest of humanity. You don't need religion to have morals.
If you cannot determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
I'm OK with the truth being called crass considering the circumstances. But it's important to recognize that conscience alone--the innate ability to 'determine right from wrong'--is fallible. I think the old lesson there is called 'hubris'--thinking you are higher than God. That's secular wisdom as old as time that I would imagine you can agree on, so let's leave it at that and keep this from becoming an 'atheist debate'. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 16:10:41 GMT -5
The reason you are seeing more of this recently is because of the social changes brought about by modern technology. The internet is a wonderful tool for shining the light on the dark corners of peoples lives. Just ask Dean Bruer. Your assumption that judeo/christian families have some sort of better morals than any other people is crass and is self serving. It is this belief that leads to the acceptance of immoral behaviour in the very churches you think are somehow better than the rest of humanity. You don't need religion to have morals.
If you cannot determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
I'm OK with the truth being called crass considering the circumstances. But it's important to recognize that conscience alone--the innate ability to 'determine right from wrong'--is fallible. I think the old lesson there is called 'hubris'--thinking you are higher than God. That's secular wisdom as old as time that I would imagine you can agree on, so let's leave it at that and keep this from becoming an 'atheist debate'. I did not call "The Truth" crass. I called the thinking that judeo/christian religion makes for better morals crass. It's very crass. I am not higher than any god you care to imagine. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 16:14:13 GMT -5
A wee question. Did all the sister workers prior to the visit of Irvine, go out in the work after the nine months was up or did some call it a day? That I don't know, and I never thought to ask the question. I would assume that some probably called it day though. Cherie may know, could someone tag her please as I am unable to. |
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Post by snow on May 3, 2023 17:18:03 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. If you read wings you would know that this has been happening for a very long time. What they've been doing is moving the abusers to another area and not informing the friends of why they were moved. So it's because this time everyone is on line and the workers can no longer hide it. You might be right that they aren't used to going to the authorities. That is new and they are a bit 'clumsy' in that regard. This time they have to. |
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Post by snow on May 3, 2023 17:20:02 GMT -5
It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. Semi correct. Add to this the lie that Elders were told at the time. It was seeing if sister workers were scriptural, and after the nine months had passed, they were told that that there was a clear sign that they were. (Absence of baby bumps was a funny way of interpreting the clear sign). This was one of the lies that caused my grandfather to leave, when he found out about it. This was confirmed to my father also by Tom Hewson. A lie, not unlike the one told when Demetrius came here from Greece....supposedly to learn the language. Learning the language was merely a bonus, the prime reason was the situation in Greece at the time. And the lie about Hymns Old and New being updated in 1987 for copyright reasons. There were multiple reasons, including expunging Trinity references, Sing and Shout, Cooney credits, including more hymns written by workers such as Ken P. Copyright issues were only part.
Did the senior workers in the US and elsewhere think people were stupid? These things left a bitter taste in a number of senior professing people. My Uncle said, "I don't like being lied to."
And when there were baby bumps in the sister workers, make sure the kid is adopted to a professing family? |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 3, 2023 17:55:55 GMT -5
I think old slick Willie must have sown his wild oats, then successfully prayed for a crop failure  To be honest I have no idea |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 18:48:09 GMT -5
I think old slick Willie must have sown his wild oats, then successfully prayed for a crop failure To be honest I have no idea That's evidence of the power of prayer. |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 4, 2023 11:15:27 GMT -5
Site logo image Wings for Truth Merlin Affleck reply to BC friends wingsfortruth2 May 3 See orginal letter at wingsfortruth.info/2023/04/26/letter-from-friends-to-overseer-merlin-affleck-and-vancouver-workers/Hello Jeremy and Leonie, Considering history is important when coming to conclusions about the elephant in the room. I was in neighbouring provinces for 34 years before coming here to BC six years ago. Yes BC has had the reputation of being a graveyard for sister workers for decades. I could give you a list of 16 names or more that have not made it in the last decade or so. Since coming here I did learn that some did not have the health to continue and that is understandable. But several left wounded. I have had the opportunity now to personally visit with several of them and heard from them first hand about their experiences and I would encourage you to do the same. I would rather have you listen to those details first hand from these sisters themselves and I will be happy to supply you with their names and contact information if they agree. Most of them have been gracious (including auntie Betty) and silently suffered. You also might want to visit with some who are more comfortable labouring in other provinces where they feel appreciated and safe. I can supply their contact information too if they agree and you can hear it first hand from them whether the pressure they felt here comes from the brother's side or the sister's or both. Another good resource would be to visit with the convention owners. You have their contact information so you can speak with them and learn about their observations during preps. You might check with one who came here from another province in recent times and health broke after 1.5 years. She returned home and heads up a field and does fine. These are gracious people who do not want to cause trouble but they may answer a 'yes or no' regarding where the uncomfortable spirit they felt came from ....the brothers or sisters or from both. I would be able to supply you with the contact information for the mother of a young sister that came from another province and it would be good for you to hear it from her regarding the change that she witnessed in her dear daughter after coming here. I wish you could have been in the car last week as could have been in the car last week as Judy, Connie and I traveled over the Coquihalla together and had a serious brotherly / sisterly visit. It was lovely. We were coming back from a meeting in Kelowna where concerned parents and elders met to discuss and ask direct questions about CSA and other issues like you have mentioned in this email. The meeting lasted from 7 - 11:30pm and a good spirit prevailed and I believe all would agree that it was productive and good points were agreed on for moving forward. There is a place for face to face visits. We have an elders meeting scheduled for next week and we will be having more throughout the province in the near future too. I think you will remember how I spoke to the province via Zoom a few years ago opening up the subject of CSA. Since then I have worked with sisters and brothers regarding CSA courses and Workers code of conduct and Child safe policy documents. Recently I asked Cindy-Lynn to research and send out a 90 minute CSA course and other hotline information to our elders and parents. All this has been a learning curve for me and I am not here to say that I have done everything right, but I can also say that I hate these issues along with you and pledge to be open to better ways moving forward. I also want to remind you about the old saying .....'there are many sides to a story' and I want to encourage you to do lots of first hand listening and learning from many sides about the history before coming to definite conclusions. I've appreciated Nehemiah lately. The Kingdom was in disrepair. He observed, wept & prayed (including himself when the Kingdom suffered loss) while the enemy ridiculed. Then he inspired the people to unite and rebuild one stone at a time. They did and in 52 days the walls were rebuilt and strong again. The precious things of God (including children) could be safe again. Then they rejoiced …..and we can tool! Sincerely, Merlin |
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Post by neighbour on May 4, 2023 12:54:34 GMT -5
And the lie about Hymns Old and New being updated in 1987 for copyright reasons. There were multiple reasons, including expunging Trinity references, Sing and Shout, Cooney credits, including more hymns written by workers such as Ken P. Copyright issues were only part. They neglected/forgot to remove a reference to the Rosary in the hymn "Come Ye Yourselves Apart and Rest Awhile" Come, tell Me all that
ye have said and done,
Your victories and failures,
hopes and fears.
I know how hardly souls
are wooed and won:
My choicest wreaths
are always wet with tears.I chuckle to myself when we sing it. I pointed it out to one of the friends once and they had no idea what it meant, as usual they just sang it without thinking about it. They never considered what the wreaths were or why anyone would be crying over them. The Prayer Rosary is sometimes referred to as the "Wreath of Christ". |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 4, 2023 15:39:00 GMT -5
And the lie about Hymns Old and New being updated in 1987 for copyright reasons. There were multiple reasons, including expunging Trinity references, Sing and Shout, Cooney credits, including more hymns written by workers such as Ken P. Copyright issues were only part. They neglected/forgot to remove a reference to the Rosary in the hymn "Come Ye Yourselves Apart and Rest Awhile" Come, tell Me all that
ye have said and done,
Your victories and failures,
hopes and fears.
I know how hardly souls
are wooed and won:
My choicest wreaths
are always wet with tears.I chuckle to myself when we sing it. I pointed it out to another of the friends once and they had no idea what it meant, as usual they just sang it without thinking about it. They never considered what the wreaths were or why anyone would be crying over them. The Prayer Rosary is sometimes referred to as the "Wreath of Christ". Change wreaths to cheeks....... lol |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 4, 2023 16:42:07 GMT -5
From: Andrew D. Scholl
Date: Wed, May 3, 2023 at 8:25 PM
Subject: Rest
Rest
I am planning to return to Washington state and be with my parents for an extended period of rest from being responsible and active in the work. There are personal issues, indiscretions and struggles in my past that I have never taken the time to completely address and get help for. I am weary and this is something I need to do if I am to be a completely healthy, trusted, responsible person and worker.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me. The things I’m getting help for are not criminal, but certainly not appropriate or wise. They are things that have been addressed and confessed to. But, I have never taken time to step away from my active place in the work and completely address and examine myself and my mental, emotional, spiritual health as deeply as I should. This decision has not come lightly. It is not something I am being forced to do. It is something that has been suggested by some who know and love me. I feel at peace with this decision, and hope for many more active, happy years in the work.
Thanks for your care and prayers,
Andy
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Post by BobWilliston on May 4, 2023 23:12:15 GMT -5
I have been asked to share this information . This is not my story . It truly broke my heart ❤️ I hope this person finds peace . It's time to share my story. I apologize for the length. l am sharing this because when all of this broke one month ago, I vowed to myself I would no longer be complicit in the problem, I would be a part of the solution. Continued silence contributes to the problem, and I am tired of the weight of secrets. .... Shortly after this, my then-boyfriend (now husband, B) and I were at Elizabeth convention. I was approached by Jim Price (deceased) and [Worker X] and asked to have a private conversation with them. They were not keen on allowing B in, but I insisted. Looking back, I am so thankful insisted on it . We were brouaht into a large room. [Workers X & Y] were in large overstuffed chairs, and they had placed two small folding chairs directly and closely in front of them. They proceeded to gaslight, shame, and belittle us for bringing forth the situation with [Worker Y]. We were preached to about Bible verses concerning gossip, told we needed to pray about what we knew versus what we THOUGHT we knew, and to not speak of the situation again. And we haven't-until now. We entered the room expecting I empathy ,non giving understanding and an apology for how the leadership had failed us, especially as young, impressionable teenagers. Instead, we were met with icy cold evil, intent on protecting a system whose purpose appeared to be protecting those in power while maintaining an *appearance* of purity at all costs. We left that room humiliated, ashamed, and broken. With honest eyes, looking back, nothing was ever the same again. We tried to she & the knowledge away that this system is nothing like we thought it was. Every time we looked at a worker we would wonder "what are they really doing? What secrets do they keep? Who are they protecting?" After this meeting, my parents called [Worker X] to address the situation with [Worker Y] and our meeting with the overseers. They were also silenced by [Worker X] When news broke of DB a month ago, I broke. I threw up violently, shook for hours, and sobbed for days. silenced, and was complicit in a system that protects child sex abusers. I imagined women and children in those seats we were in, who were told they were making up lies and to just go away. I try to give ourselves grace for the 18 year old kids we were at the time, but I feel a certain level of guilt that doesn't seem to go away. am so sorry to the many of you that are victims. .... Firsthand experience of the depth of secrecy and power hierarchy within the system makes this impossible to ignore. Our system has valued the external appearance of our kingdom over the holiness of God lived out in hidden places and people's souls. I know God's heart is breaking in mis. The kingdom over the holiness of God lived out in hidden places and people's souls. I know God's heart is breaking in this. The continued silence of so many is deafening. Feel free to share this with others. Feel free to reach out to me personally. Thank you for being a safe place to share. I have one comment about this. It was a wise move for this young lady to not go to a meeting with the workers alone. The older workers are normally well skilled in interrogation strategies. One worker told me that his older companion tutored him on how to counter and discredit people's disagreements and concerns. I had my own experience of being called to a meeting with the workers. I was really shocked at their accusations, and I am quite satisfied they didn't believe a word I told them. I credited my survival to my education and experience dealing with manipulative and argumentative students. I left the meeting vowing to never go to such a meeting again without an attorney. It was not unlike a meeting with the mob Godfather. I was, frankly, shocked at the level of rancor displayed in their accusations. Most people are totally unprepared to deal with such treatment. |
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Post by jonathan on May 7, 2023 2:21:28 GMT -5
Very, very appropriate response from the oversight there!
May the light of your vision and understanding by a guide to those who still wander confusedly in the dark!
Well done, and keep it up!
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Post by openingact34 on May 7, 2023 9:28:46 GMT -5
Site logo image Wings for Truth Hodgie Holgersen arrested in VA, now removed from meetings wingsfortruth2 May 6 Dear Friends, We are sorry for the sorrow and distress this will likely cause but feel it is necessary to share with you. One of the Virginia friends, Hodgie Holgersen, was recently arrested and charged with taking indecent liberties with a child. He is currently out on bail awaiting trial, and by court order is not permitted to attend any of our meetings. We were also recently contacted by an advocate for a woman who reported having been molested by Hodgie years ago in another state when she was a child. They were aware of Hodgie’s recent arrest and were concerned that he might still be in meetings with children. We want to make it clear that, regardless of legal requirements, there will be no future arrangement for Hodgie to be in meetings without conferring with ALL of our friends in the area where he would attend. It is strongly recommended by health care professionals that anyone charged with a sexual crime within a group or community be openly identified for the sake of children within that group. Pending Hodgie’s trial, our purpose in sending this letter is to prioritize the welfare of our brothers and sisters, and especially the children among us, and to encourage open communication about such things. Sharing this prior to a verdict is not something we find easy to do, especially when we consider our own need for God's mercy. However, we have learned that cases involving child sexual abuse must be handled differently. The effects on children who experience sexual abuse are devastating and long-lasting. We have come to understand that failure to communicate openly about things like this can cause ongoing trauma for past victims. It can also make victims feel fearful about reporting their experiences. We trust that everyone will understand that we do not encourage a hateful spirit toward Hodgie. Our hope and belief are that honesty before God and the cleansing blood of Jesus will enable us all to stand before God and be accepted in the day of judgment. When we witness someone facing severe consequences in this life, we’re moved to seek the Lord’s help to save us all from the eternal consequences of sin. With care, The VA/MD/DE/NC Workers To further clarify: He got arrested over 8 months ago, removed from meetings this week. Accused of aggravated sexual battery toward a child under the age of 13, and “indecent liberties” with a child under the age of 15. |
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 7, 2023 10:33:39 GMT -5
Un effing believable …………
Transparency is not happening !
Those overseers need to get there a$$ kicked . I hope he is reporting and registering as a sex offender . They overseers should be held accountable !
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Post by snow on May 7, 2023 15:44:03 GMT -5
Site logo image Wings for Truth Hodgie Holgersen arrested in VA, now removed from meetings wingsfortruth2 May 6 Dear Friends, We are sorry for the sorrow and distress this will likely cause but feel it is necessary to share with you. One of the Virginia friends, Hodgie Holgersen, was recently arrested and charged with taking indecent liberties with a child. He is currently out on bail awaiting trial, and by court order is not permitted to attend any of our meetings. We were also recently contacted by an advocate for a woman who reported having been molested by Hodgie years ago in another state when she was a child. They were aware of Hodgie’s recent arrest and were concerned that he might still be in meetings with children. We want to make it clear that, regardless of legal requirements, there will be no future arrangement for Hodgie to be in meetings without conferring with ALL of our friends in the area where he would attend. It is strongly recommended by health care professionals that anyone charged with a sexual crime within a group or community be openly identified for the sake of children within that group. Pending Hodgie’s trial, our purpose in sending this letter is to prioritize the welfare of our brothers and sisters, and especially the children among us, and to encourage open communication about such things. Sharing this prior to a verdict is not something we find easy to do, especially when we consider our own need for God's mercy. However, we have learned that cases involving child sexual abuse must be handled differently. The effects on children who experience sexual abuse are devastating and long-lasting. We have come to understand that failure to communicate openly about things like this can cause ongoing trauma for past victims. It can also make victims feel fearful about reporting their experiences. We trust that everyone will understand that we do not encourage a hateful spirit toward Hodgie. Our hope and belief are that honesty before God and the cleansing blood of Jesus will enable us all to stand before God and be accepted in the day of judgment. When we witness someone facing severe consequences in this life, we’re moved to seek the Lord’s help to save us all from the eternal consequences of sin. With care, The VA/MD/DE/NC Workers To further clarify: He got arrested over 8 months ago, removed from meetings this week. Accused of aggravated sexual battery toward a child under the age of 13, and “indecent liberties” with a child under the age of 15. Nothing like acting quickly on these matters! I thought at first that they were taking action right away and then to find out he was arrested 8 months ago and not kicked out 8 months ago!! It's so disheartening. |
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Post by Admin on May 7, 2023 17:03:27 GMT -5
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Post by luke2236 on May 8, 2023 23:43:18 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. If they really cared for the victims they would eliminate the exclusivity doctrine from their arsenal. This doctrine creates no escape for people who believe they will become a lost sheep (destined for hell) if they leave the 2x2 way. |
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 9, 2023 8:01:48 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. If they really cared for the victims they would eliminate the exclusivity doctrine from their arsenal. This doctrine creates no escape for people who believe they will become a lost sheep (destined for hell) if they leave the 2x2 way. Thankfully, in most English speaking places there are enough members who have escaped to support those who want to leave behind the spiritual cancer that is exclusivity. If the workers really cared about victims, they’d redirect the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spend every year on flying workers around the globe to supporting victims. It’s currently more important for them to flit around the world rather than stopping in their own patch and stooping to help those who have been abused by their own. |
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Post by luke2236 on May 9, 2023 14:22:12 GMT -5
If they really cared for the victims they would eliminate the exclusivity doctrine from their arsenal. This doctrine creates no escape for people who believe they will become a lost sheep (destined for hell) if they leave the 2x2 way. Thankfully, in most English speaking places there are enough members who have escaped to support those who want to leave behind the spiritual cancer that is exclusivity. If the workers really cared about victims, they’d redirect the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spend every year on flying workers around the globe to supporting victims. It’s currently more important for them to flit around the world rather than stopping in their own patch and stooping to help those who have been abused by their own. I am thankful for the availability of help but I know first hand that thought of asking for help from a “lost sheep” is hard to do when you are considering becoming a “lost sheep”. When the William Irvine way is the only way, everyone else is wrong so why would you believe them? So I do think that doctrine is the #1 problem. I do agree with you that funds should be available to victims. I know that the financial structure of the church helps hide money similar to how the mafia hides money so it makes it hard for law enforcement and even lawyers to know how much money is even available. So I agree with you the most peaceful way to help is for the money to be given to the victims. Flying workers all over the world to tell people they are in the only way doesn’t make sense when they have perfectly capable locals to do the same. |
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 9, 2023 18:54:52 GMT -5
Thankfully, in most English speaking places there are enough members who have escaped to support those who want to leave behind the spiritual cancer that is exclusivity. If the workers really cared about victims, they’d redirect the hundreds of thousands of dollars they spend every year on flying workers around the globe to supporting victims. It’s currently more important for them to flit around the world rather than stopping in their own patch and stooping to help those who have been abused by their own. I am thankful for the availability of help but I know first hand that thought of asking for help from a “lost sheep” is hard to do when you are considering becoming a “lost sheep”. When the William Irvine way is the only way, everyone else is wrong so why would you believe them? So I do think that doctrine is the #1 problem. I do agree with you that funds should be available to victims. I know that the financial structure of the church helps hide money similar to how the mafia hides money so it makes it hard for law enforcement and even lawyers to know how much money is even available. So I agree with you the most peaceful way to help is for the money to be given to the victims. Flying workers all over the world to tell people they are in the only way doesn’t make sense when they have perfectly capable locals to do the same. Agree it is not easy to leave and that doctrine is the #1 problem. There is some good support available though for those who are ready to connect with believers outside of the 2x2's. Flying workers around the world will increase, not decrease. There may be a few more checks put in place but there is plenty of money to direct to it. It was obviously embarrassing for the Californian senior workers to have to escort Kingsley Stone recently from Convention and send him back to South Africa. He's resumed his normal worker status back in South Africa and the messaging over there that it was all a bit of a set-up in the US and they over-reacted. What I've learned over many years is that there are very few workers who are serious about protecting children from sexual abuse. There is a long history of protecting offenders and shunning victims. The recent letters issued by Overseers promise some change but past practice indicates very little will be delivered. In the words of Jesus in Matthew 15:7 "these people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. In vain do they worship me - teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (ESV) |
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Post by luke2236 on May 9, 2023 20:25:01 GMT -5
I am thankful for the availability of help but I know first hand that thought of asking for help from a “lost sheep” is hard to do when you are considering becoming a “lost sheep”. When the William Irvine way is the only way, everyone else is wrong so why would you believe them? So I do think that doctrine is the #1 problem. I do agree with you that funds should be available to victims. I know that the financial structure of the church helps hide money similar to how the mafia hides money so it makes it hard for law enforcement and even lawyers to know how much money is even available. So I agree with you the most peaceful way to help is for the money to be given to the victims. Flying workers all over the world to tell people they are in the only way doesn’t make sense when they have perfectly capable locals to do the same. Agree it is not easy to leave and that doctrine is the #1 problem. There is some good support available though for those who are ready to connect with believers outside of the 2x2's. Flying workers around the world will increase, not decrease. There may be a few more checks put in place but there is plenty of money to direct to it. It was obviously embarrassing for the Californian senior workers to have to escort Kingsley Stone recently from Convention and send him back to South Africa. He's resumed his normal worker status back in South Africa and the messaging over there that it was all a bit of a set-up in the US and they over-reacted. What I've learned over many years is that there are very few workers who are serious about protecting children from sexual abuse. There is a long history of protecting offenders and shunning victims. The recent letters issued by Overseers promise some change but past practice indicates very little will be delivered. In the words of Jesus in Matthew 15:7 "these people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. In vain do they worship me - teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (ESV) Odd, so many people think it will be “all better” now that the workers watch an online video every two years! |
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Post by Dan on May 9, 2023 21:20:58 GMT -5
Agree it is not easy to leave and that doctrine is the #1 problem. There is some good support available though for those who are ready to connect with believers outside of the 2x2's. Flying workers around the world will increase, not decrease. There may be a few more checks put in place but there is plenty of money to direct to it. It was obviously embarrassing for the Californian senior workers to have to escort Kingsley Stone recently from Convention and send him back to South Africa. He's resumed his normal worker status back in South Africa and the messaging over there that it was all a bit of a set-up in the US and they over-reacted. What I've learned over many years is that there are very few workers who are serious about protecting children from sexual abuse. There is a long history of protecting offenders and shunning victims. The recent letters issued by Overseers promise some change but past practice indicates very little will be delivered. In the words of Jesus in Matthew 15:7 "these people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. In vain do they worship me - teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" (ESV) Odd, so many people think it will be “all better” now that the workers watch an online video every two years!
My thoughts exactly, but most will buy into that solution.. A real pedophile won't be deterred by a video.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 10, 2023 11:04:21 GMT -5
ANOTHER WORKER IN THE USA HAS BEEN PUT OUT . Due to a request it will be passed by ADMIN . Admin will post it !
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Post by mdm on May 10, 2023 11:42:24 GMT -5
It looks like they have started cleansing the ranks in the East too. 3 workers so far?
Are they going to publicly admit that they've been harboring immoral/abusers in the ministry for decades and publicly apologize to those who have been harmed along the way? If not, it's not sincere. Only damage control.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 10, 2023 11:45:48 GMT -5
It looks like they have started cleansing the ranks in the East too. 3 workers so far? Are they going to publicly admit that they've been harboring immoral/abusers in the ministry for decades and publicly apologize to those who have been harmed along the way? If not, it's not sincere. Only damage control. Damage control ! Especially with worker’s like MA &MH |
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