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Post by luke2236 on Apr 29, 2023 11:09:41 GMT -5
Let’s just point to one of the main reasons there are so many allegations and apologies and then periods of quiet then repeat. Nothing is systematically being done to prevent the people in charge from being caught or civilly gone after. professing.proboards.com/thread/25089/2x2-business-model-exposedFound this from 2017. Think about if in 2017, the 2x2 had implemented a legal church system of accountability. Really makes you think and wonder how many victims would have been prevented if the 2x2 had an accounting system that held them accountable. “ The beauty of this business model, despite being illegal, is that if one of the 'Workers' commits a crime such as sexually assaulting a child, the victims of the crime are unable to successfully sue for damages from the Worker since the Worker himself/herself has no personal assets to seize. In a normal organization, the victims could sue the organization as well. But in 2x2ism case who do you sue since you don't even know who controls what or where the money is? Furthermore, there is no 2x2 legal entity to sue. This is the exact legal defense that a 2x2 Overseer used - that he was not a minister since there was no church that he was a minister of, and therefore how could he be held accountable. Beautiful. This is exactly how organized crime is set up. Even worse, all that hidden away money is then used by Overseers to pay for expensive lawyers to defend any 2x2 minister charged with a crime. What a racket. Or to put it in legal terms - racketeering. Thankfully in the US the Dept of Justice can use the RICO act to pierce the organizational structure. ”
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Post by Umfolozi on Apr 29, 2023 16:12:00 GMT -5
Does anyone have more detail how Kingsley was caught and how it happened?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 16:00:08 GMT -5
Dear elders, Please share this by email with those in your mtg. according to your wisdom. Your brother, Wayne Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends, Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard. During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions: · He is stepping down from the work. · He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. · He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer. Your brothers, Brian, Wayne, Darryl For those who would like resources, please see: RAINN - the nation’s largest anti-sexual violence organization 1-800-656-HOPE (4673) www.rainn.org NATIONAL SEXUAL VIOLENCE RESOURCE CENTER: www.nsvrc.org WASHINGTON COALITION OF SEXUAL ASSAULT PROGRAMS: www.wcsap.org Damn it! Not a word about charges...
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2023 16:03:16 GMT -5
I'm wondering about someone else now. Father figure. Was on Pohnpei. Now that I think about it at 16 I may have had a near miss. JHC. Thank God nothing happened. Too stupid then to understand the danger.
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Post by deepdeep on May 1, 2023 17:02:01 GMT -5
Let’s just point to one of the main reasons there are so many allegations and apologies and then periods of quiet then repeat. Nothing is systematically being done to prevent the people in charge from being caught or civilly gone after. professing.proboards.com/thread/25089/2x2-business-model-exposedFound this from 2017. Think about if in 2017, the 2x2 had implemented a legal church system of accountability. Really makes you think and wonder how many victims would have been prevented if the 2x2 had an accounting system that held them accountable. “ The beauty of this business model, despite being illegal, is that if one of the 'Workers' commits a crime such as sexually assaulting a child, the victims of the crime are unable to successfully sue for damages from the Worker since the Worker himself/herself has no personal assets to seize. In a normal organization, the victims could sue the organization as well. But in 2x2ism case who do you sue since you don't even know who controls what or where the money is? Furthermore, there is no 2x2 legal entity to sue. This is the exact legal defense that a 2x2 Overseer used - that he was not a minister since there was no church that he was a minister of, and therefore how could he be held accountable. Beautiful. This is exactly how organized crime is set up. Even worse, all that hidden away money is then used by Overseers to pay for expensive lawyers to defend any 2x2 minister charged with a crime. What a racket. Or to put it in legal terms - racketeering. Thankfully in the US the Dept of Justice can use the RICO act to pierce the organizational structure. ” Are there people high up in government protecting this system? Plenty of successful racketeering cases have been brought in the past against much more sophisticated actors... If what I read on here is true....this has been operating as you describe for some time. Does somebody powerful stand to be embarrassed if a real case is brought forward?
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 18:21:10 GMT -5
Let’s just point to one of the main reasons there are so many allegations and apologies and then periods of quiet then repeat. Nothing is systematically being done to prevent the people in charge from being caught or civilly gone after. professing.proboards.com/thread/25089/2x2-business-model-exposedFound this from 2017. Think about if in 2017, the 2x2 had implemented a legal church system of accountability. Really makes you think and wonder how many victims would have been prevented if the 2x2 had an accounting system that held them accountable. “ The beauty of this business model, despite being illegal, is that if one of the 'Workers' commits a crime such as sexually assaulting a child, the victims of the crime are unable to successfully sue for damages from the Worker since the Worker himself/herself has no personal assets to seize. In a normal organization, the victims could sue the organization as well. But in 2x2ism case who do you sue since you don't even know who controls what or where the money is? Furthermore, there is no 2x2 legal entity to sue. This is the exact legal defense that a 2x2 Overseer used - that he was not a minister since there was no church that he was a minister of, and therefore how could he be held accountable. Beautiful. This is exactly how organized crime is set up. Even worse, all that hidden away money is then used by Overseers to pay for expensive lawyers to defend any 2x2 minister charged with a crime. What a racket. Or to put it in legal terms - racketeering. Thankfully in the US the Dept of Justice can use the RICO act to pierce the organizational structure. ” Are there people high up in government protecting this system? Plenty of successful racketeering cases have been brought in the past against much more sophisticated actors... If what I read on here is true....this has been operating as you describe for some time. Does somebody powerful stand to be embarrassed if a real case is brought forward? No it’s just small , non political, and hidden. Victims don’t ask for action from the government because their salvation is thought to come from the way existing.
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Post by deepdeep on May 1, 2023 18:36:51 GMT -5
Are there people high up in government protecting this system? Plenty of successful racketeering cases have been brought in the past against much more sophisticated actors... If what I read on here is true....this has been operating as you describe for some time. Does somebody powerful stand to be embarrassed if a real case is brought forward? No it’s just small , non political, and hidden. Victims don’t ask for action from the government because their salvation is thought to come from the way existing. Being "small" didn't shield David Koresh or Warren Jeffs. It sounds like this group is pretty big if it spans multiple states/countries and has access to the funds that have been described in these forums ....but no victims coming forward would explain it I suppose. Am I to understand that this current palaver is different from past "dust-ups"? Is there hope?...I mean there sounds like there are a ton of people that this church has screwed over (pun intendend!) and they are not being quiet about it.
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 18:45:45 GMT -5
No it’s just small , non political, and hidden. Victims don’t ask for action from the government because their salvation is thought to come from the way existing. Being "small" didn't shield David Koresh or Warren Jeffs. It sounds like this group is pretty big if it spans multiple states/countries and has access to the funds that have been described in these forums ....but no victims coming forward would explain it I suppose. Am I to understand that this current palaver is different from past "dust-ups"? Is there hope?...I mean there sounds like there are a ton of people that this church has screwed over (pun intendend!) and they are not being quiet about it. Waco was stockpiling weapons and Jeffs wasn’t hiding having sex with his many underage wives. I don’t know how the Koresh accounting was setup but I’m pretty sure the Jeffs setup was a church and everyone turned everything to the church. Plus both were in a relatively small area so undercover agents could monitor illegal activity. The 2x2s are a few people spread all over the world with different trusts being held by different elders. They also have different heads whereas the other examples have one main head.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on May 1, 2023 19:04:15 GMT -5
Dear elders, Please share this by email with those in your mtg. according to your wisdom. Your brother, Wayne Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends, Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard. During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions: · He is stepping down from the work. · He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. · He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer. Your brothers, Brian, Wayne, Darryl For those who would like resources, please see: RAINN - the nation’s largest anti-sexual violence organization 1-800-656-HOPE (4673) www.rainn.org NATIONAL SEXUAL VIOLENCE RESOURCE CENTER: www.nsvrc.org WASHINGTON COALITION OF SEXUAL ASSAULT PROGRAMS: www.wcsap.org Damn it! Not a word about charges... I wonder if the authorities where the crime occurred have been notified.
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
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Post by peggysullivan on May 1, 2023 19:54:26 GMT -5
I'm wondering about someone else now. Father figure. Was on Pohnpei. Now that I think about it at 16 I may have had a near miss. JHC. Thank God nothing happened. Too stupid then to understand the danger. Was John Vandenberg over there?
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Post by deepdeep on May 1, 2023 21:18:03 GMT -5
Being "small" didn't shield David Koresh or Warren Jeffs. It sounds like this group is pretty big if it spans multiple states/countries and has access to the funds that have been described in these forums ....but no victims coming forward would explain it I suppose. Am I to understand that this current palaver is different from past "dust-ups"? Is there hope?...I mean there sounds like there are a ton of people that this church has screwed over (pun intendend!) and they are not being quiet about it. Waco was stockpiling weapons and Jeffs wasn’t hiding having sex with his many underage wives. I don’t know how the Koresh accounting was setup but I’m pretty sure the Jeffs setup was a church and everyone turned everything to the church. Plus both were in a relatively small area so undercover agents could monitor illegal activity. The 2x2s are a few people spread all over the world with different trusts being held by different elders. They also have different heads whereas the other examples have one main head. Fair enough.... So is anything different now so they will get caught? I mean the hornets nest seems pretty stirred up but are you saying there is nothing provable? If there is outright illegal things going on... At the very least the individuals should be held responsible.
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Post by luke2236 on May 1, 2023 21:21:34 GMT -5
Waco was stockpiling weapons and Jeffs wasn’t hiding having sex with his many underage wives. I don’t know how the Koresh accounting was setup but I’m pretty sure the Jeffs setup was a church and everyone turned everything to the church. Plus both were in a relatively small area so undercover agents could monitor illegal activity. The 2x2s are a few people spread all over the world with different trusts being held by different elders. They also have different heads whereas the other examples have one main head. Fair enough.... So is anything different now so they will get caught? I mean the hornets nest seems pretty stirred up but are you saying there is nothing provable? If there is outright illegal things going on... At the very least the individuals should be held responsible. I don’t know if the ones who covered this up will get caught for the past. It seems amazing how efficient workers are now at getting other workers to confess about workers who did SA and CSA in other countries.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 2, 2023 12:20:49 GMT -5
Will he not attend any meetings ? If Kingsley was able to have Sunday a.m. meeting ……… Why should we accept this bull-hit from the overseer’s . They should be charged . Kingsley in a meeting with women and children obviously seems ok with them !
Pohnpei
wingsfortruth2 May 1 Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends,
Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard.
During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions:
He is stepping down from the work. He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer.
Your brothers,
Brian, Wayne, Darryl I have reached the point of not trusting in the USA 🇺🇸 AND CANADA ! Effing untrue , yes security is required for workers . Not the VICTIMS BOTTOM LINE ! Throw their a$$es in jail . Jus sayin !
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peggysullivan
Senior Member
What is living if I can't be free? What is freedom if I can't be me?
Posts: 651
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Post by peggysullivan on May 2, 2023 12:30:31 GMT -5
Will he not attend any meetings ? If Kingsley was able to have Sunday a.m. meeting ……… Why should we accept this bull-hit from the overseer’s . They should be charged . Kingsley in a meeting with women and children obviously seems ok with them ! Pohnpei wingsfortruth2 May 1 Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends, Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard. During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions: He is stepping down from the work. He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer. Your brothers, Brian, Wayne, Darryl I have reached the point of not trusting in the USA 🇺🇸 AND CANADA ! Effing untrue , yes security is required for workers . Not the VICTIMS BOTTOM LINE ! Throw their a$$es in jail . Jus sayin ! Technically, this crime should be reported to the Pohnpei authorities and then they can proceed with whatever they need to. Don’t know the statute of limitations there. But if there are none…. We could be seen as harboring a criminal.
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Post by Deleted on May 2, 2023 12:59:27 GMT -5
Will he not attend any meetings ? If Kingsley was able to have Sunday a.m. meeting ……… Why should we accept this bull-hit from the overseer’s . They should be charged . Kingsley in a meeting with women and children obviously seems ok with them ! Pohnpei wingsfortruth2 May 1 Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends, Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard. During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions: He is stepping down from the work. He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer. Your brothers, Brian, Wayne, Darryl I have reached the point of not trusting in the USA 🇺🇸 AND CANADA ! Effing untrue , yes security is required for workers . Not the VICTIMS BOTTOM LINE ! Throw their a$$es in jail . Jus sayin ! Technically, this crime should be reported to the Pohnpei authorities and then they can proceed with whatever they need to. Don’t know the statute of limitations there. But if there are none…. We could be seen as harboring a criminal. In some cultures and countries they look away as much as some have in this case. For Pohnpei it's up to 5 years. 5,000 dollar fine. For CSA under 15... www.fsmlaw.org/pohnpei/code/pdf/pohnpei%20state%202012%20code.pdfI could be wrong, but it seems this is more of an issue in Western Based countries than elsewhere.
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Post by snow on May 2, 2023 13:20:32 GMT -5
Will he not attend any meetings ? If Kingsley was able to have Sunday a.m. meeting ……… Why should we accept this bull-hit from the overseer’s . They should be charged . Kingsley in a meeting with women and children obviously seems ok with them ! Pohnpei wingsfortruth2 May 1 Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends, Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard. During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions: He is stepping down from the work. He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer. Your brothers, Brian, Wayne, Darryl I have reached the point of not trusting in the USA 🇺🇸 AND CANADA ! Effing untrue , yes security is required for workers . Not the VICTIMS BOTTOM LINE ! Throw their a$$es in jail . Jus sayin ! This is all so distressing. It's like a valve has been opened and more and more perps are being flushed out! According to Advocates for truth there have been over 250 perps named so far. This is just the beginning it looks like.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 2, 2023 21:18:19 GMT -5
Site logo image Wings for Truth Advice to workers from professing psychotherapist – April 2023
wingsfortruth2 May 2 To Our Workers:
As you may be aware, “There are few moments in ministry that matter more than how we respond to someone who discloses to us that they have been sexually abused..” [Understanding Sexual Abuse: A Guide For Ministry Leaders & Survivors, by Tim Hein, (2018) p. 57-58] And perhaps you, like most others, are having to respond extemporaneously. We pray that you will have the needed strength and wisdom, but even so, these situations require some psychological information that I’m sending in case you don’t have it.
Survivors are substantially re-traumatized when disclosure is mishandled. ..Mr. Hein’s book mentions 3 words: Listen, believe, and [I’d add, to respectfully and humbly] acknowledge. I would also add this: Maintain a tone that helps them to feel safe to talk. There is nothing for you to defend or prove in that moment. You can always circle back around with questions at a later time, but those three words are important to employ in the moment.
Whoever is calling you has already spent weeks, months, years, huge portions of their life wrangling with their experience—or that of their precious child. This may be the first time they’ve even said the words. Calling you may well be the single bravest thing they’ve ever done. They are feeling embarrassed, vulnerable, exposed. They are usually going to be needing
1) reassurance that you believe them and to see that you take them seriously,
2) to know what their options are—legal and mental health (and as you know, child and adult options differ), and
3) to see what you are going to do moving forward (prevention). I don’t pretend to know what that is, but please offer something.
You do not need to (and perhaps shouldn’t) counsel them. Your role is to believe them and resource them. (Some resources are listed in my last email, if needed.)
Here are some examples of what they need to hear:
“I believe you. / It took a lot of courage to tell me about this.”
“I’m sorry this happened. / This shouldn’t have happened to you.”
The last topic I will mention is regarding perpetrator protection. Again, I don’t know if this has happened recently, but it has happened many, many times. No one coming forward to disclose should have to be questioned about what happens to their abuser. They have already spent way too much time considering that. Moreover, what happens to a perpetrator is between him and God and the law. No one reporting abuse is responsible for that. In addition, research has historically shown that a pedophile’s re-offence, relapse and recidivism rates are fairly high (and I understand that not all sexual abusers of children are pedophiles).
Given that information, many survivors and others are distraught by abusers returning to our gatherings where kids will be. Many I can readily think of have stopped going to meetings because of being unwilling to risk this exposure. Please, please do not make decisions that would continue to protect perpetrators. These people are so deceptive/charming/manipulative that it’s hard to believe they’d re-offend. And maybe even they don’t think they will. Until they do. Even after therapy. And please, please make sure they do not return to our gatherings where there are kids.
My hope is that you will read this email in the spirit I’ve intended.. to support your healthy intentions and offer some practical professional suggestions, in case you don’t already have them.
I hope that you are holding up well.
Suzanne Thompson
(NC Psychotherapist)
p.s. I also strongly recommend the book I quoted above. The author was also abused as a child—as many ministers have been, perhaps even your peers, or those on your staff, or even you—and has done an excellent job of offering resources, examples, and self-disclosure in an organized, compassionate way.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 3, 2023 6:11:09 GMT -5
I can absolutely tell that calls are coming from all over the world !
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 6:28:34 GMT -5
Will he not attend any meetings ? If Kingsley was able to have Sunday a.m. meeting ……… Why should we accept this bull-hit from the overseer’s . They should be charged . Kingsley in a meeting with women and children obviously seems ok with them ! Pohnpei wingsfortruth2 May 1 Dear WA/N ID/AK workers, elders and friends, Recently, John Mastin confessed to sexually abusive behavior involving a minor during his time on Pohnpei. We have recently received other similar allegations from victims and their families which indicates a troubling pattern. We are in touch with some who have connections with Pohnpei, and are offering our support to those involved. None of the allegations involve people who are currently minors. We are very sorry for the pain this has caused, and we want any other victims or people with concerns to feel free to come forward and be heard. During our visit with John, we all agreed to the following conditions: He is stepping down from the work. He will not be attending any meetings until further notice. He will immediately seek professional therapy. Early this week, we plan to send an email with educational documents that will direct each of us to practices and awareness that will help keep us safer. Your brothers, Brian, Wayne, Darryl I have reached the point of not trusting in the USA 🇺🇸 AND CANADA ! Effing untrue , yes security is required for workers . Not the VICTIMS BOTTOM LINE ! Throw their a$$es in jail . Jus sayin ! This is all so distressing. It's like a valve has been opened and more and more perps are being flushed out! According to Advocates for truth there have been over 250 perps named so far. This is just the beginning it looks like. I am not hearing much lately about the moral high ground that only god believers can hold.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on May 3, 2023 9:40:26 GMT -5
She hopes that the……. I hope that you are holding up well
Yes the moral high ground is quiet . I absolutely feel horrible about the situation of good worker’s & friends , I am in contact regularly with Friends and they are hurting and feel betrayed . I have known them all my life .
Where are the funds for the VICTIMS THAT DOYLE SMITH PROMISED !
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Post by lk1243 on May 3, 2023 13:40:23 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support.
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 14:12:54 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour.
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Post by lk1243 on May 3, 2023 14:48:53 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. I don't see any reliable evidence that the 2x2s have ever had a rash of ministers convicted or otherwise convincingly found guilty for SA/CSA in a short time period until presumably now. Sexual abuse is unfortunately not 'peculiar' to any organization but rather is widespread in the U.S. per RAINN, and I dare say it's more frequent outside of churches than within. Probably most of it happens on the streets and in the privacy of family homes, most likely predominantly in families that lack Judeo-Christian moral foundations rather than in Christian homes. It is frankly the organizations (including large churches) that never come to a moment like this that I worry about. Cleaning house is necessary whether it is through an always present program or in sudden 'Me Too' waves like what the 2x2s are seeing right now. There are some things that the organization could do to limit the incidence of these problems. For example, married couples are not permitted to serve as workers. I worry that this comes into conflict with Paul's warning that in the last days false teachers would forbid to eat meat or marry--a line often used out of context online in an effort to discredit the 2x2s. On the other hand, you can see why it is not desirable for married men to be traveling ministers, or for parents to abandon their families to serve on a mission. When couples and families are involved, it should be 'all or nothing'. But to lack the option could be a source of problems. Secrecy is of course also a concern. It can be easy to slip into a state of near ease with simply not knowing. However, those who love the truth will do what they can to ensure that they aren't unwittingly doing wrong by their own participation. Not 'letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing' is valuable in that much time can be wasted searching for information, much confusion brought about by 'over-coordination', and much strife stirred up by talebarers and busybodies. What I think this principle does not speak to is your own personal conduct within an organization. We are accountable for willful ignorance. Even the surrounding society claims to know this. The elevated status of workers and monitoring of progress is also an issue. I think the right way to put it, given that all of the saints are 'holy priests' of God, is that the workers are specialized and dedicated. That dedication consists in some degree of selling everything you own (if indeed a worker even does so), but it consists more profoundly in the dedication of your whole allotment of time to ministering not only to the saints but also to the unconverted and to those who have not heard the Gospel at all. 'Worker' as a title rather than a lifestyle is an empty tradition and reinvigoration is needed for workers to reaffirm a rightfully elevated status. Otherwise, the organization is in danger of losing effective structure and becomes political.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2023 15:06:35 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. Nothing different, the father of lies has been in operation from the beginning when he fell from heaven...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2023 15:08:50 GMT -5
It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. I don't see any reliable evidence that the 2x2s have ever had a rash of ministers convicted or otherwise convincingly found guilty for SA/CSA in a short time period until presumably now. Sexual abuse is unfortunately not 'peculiar' to any organization but rather is widespread in the U.S. per RAINN, and I dare say it's more frequent outside of churches than within. Probably most of it happens on the streets and in the privacy of family homes, most likely predominantly in families that lack Judeo-Christian moral foundations rather than in Christian homes. It is frankly the organizations (including large churches) that never come to a moment like this that I worry about. Cleaning house is necessary whether it is through an always present program or in sudden 'Me Too' waves like what the 2x2s are seeing right now. There are some things that the organization could do to limit the incidence of these problems. For example, married couples are not permitted to serve as workers. I worry that this comes into conflict with Paul's warning that in the last days false teachers would forbid to eat meat or marry--a line often used out of context online in an effort to discredit the 2x2s. On the other hand, you can see why it is not desirable for married men to be traveling ministers, or for parents to abandon their families to serve on a mission. When couples and families are involved, it should be 'all or nothing'. But to lack the option could be a source of problems. Secrecy is of course also a concern. It can be easy to slip into a state of near ease with simply not knowing. However, those who love the truth will do what they can to ensure that they aren't unwittingly doing wrong by their own participation. Not 'letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing' is valuable in that much time can be wasted searching for information, much confusion brought about by 'over-coordination', and much strife stirred up by talebarers and busybodies. What I think this principle does not speak to is your own personal conduct within an organization. We are accountable for willful ignorance. Even the surrounding society claims to know this. The elevated status of workers and monitoring of progress is also an issue. I think the right way to put it, given that all of the saints are 'holy priests' of God, is that the workers are specialized and dedicated. That dedication consists in some degree of selling everything you own (if indeed a worker even does so), but it consists more profoundly in the dedication of your whole allotment of time to ministering not only to the saints but also to the unconverted and to those who have not heard the Gospel at all. 'Worker' as a title rather than a lifestyle is an empty tradition and reinvigoration is needed for workers to reaffirm a rightfully elevated status. Otherwise, the organization is in danger of losing effective structure and becomes political. Well said...
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 15:11:19 GMT -5
It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. I don't see any reliable evidence that the 2x2s have ever had a rash of ministers convicted or otherwise convincingly found guilty for SA/CSA in a short time period until presumably now. Sexual abuse is unfortunately not 'peculiar' to any organization but rather is widespread in the U.S. per RAINN, and I dare say it's more frequent outside of churches than within. Probably most of it happens on the streets and in the privacy of family homes, most likely predominantly in families that lack Judeo-Christian moral foundations rather than in Christian homes. It is frankly the organizations (including large churches) that never come to a moment like this that I worry about. Cleaning house is necessary whether it is through an always present program or in sudden 'Me Too' waves like what the 2x2s are seeing right now. There are some things that the organization could do to limit the incidence of these problems. For example, married couples are not permitted to serve as workers. I worry that this comes into conflict with Paul's warning that in the last days false teachers would forbid to eat meat or marry--a line often used out of context online in an effort to discredit the 2x2s. On the other hand, you can see why it is not desirable for married men to be traveling ministers, or for parents to abandon their families to serve on a mission. When couples and families are involved, it should be 'all or nothing'. But to lack the option could be a source of problems. Secrecy is of course also a concern. It can be easy to slip into a state of near ease with simply not knowing. However, those who love the truth will do what they can to ensure that they aren't unwittingly doing wrong by their own participation. Not 'letting the right hand know what the left hand is doing' is valuable in that much time can be wasted searching for information, much confusion brought about by 'over-coordination', and much strife stirred up by talebarers and busybodies. What I think this principle does not speak to is your own personal conduct within an organization. We are accountable for willful ignorance. Even the surrounding society claims to know this. The elevated status of workers and monitoring of progress is also an issue. I think the right way to put it, given that all of the saints are 'holy priests' of God, is that the workers are specialized and dedicated. That dedication consists in some degree of selling everything you own (if indeed a worker even does so), but it consists more profoundly in the dedication of your whole allotment of time to ministering not only to the saints but also to the unconverted and to those who have not heard the Gospel at all. 'Worker' as a title rather than a lifestyle is an empty tradition and reinvigoration is needed for workers to reaffirm a rightfully elevated status. Otherwise, the organization is in danger of losing effective structure and becomes political. The reason you are seeing more of this recently is because of the social changes brought about by modern technology. The internet is a wonderful tool for shining the light on the dark corners of peoples lives. Just ask Dean Bruer. Your assumption that judeo/christian families have some sort of better morals than any other people is crass and is self serving. It is this belief that leads to the acceptance of immoral behaviour in the very churches you think are somehow better than the rest of humanity. You don't need religion to have morals. If you cannot determine right from wrong then you lack empathy, not religion.
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Post by Pragmatic on May 3, 2023 15:33:55 GMT -5
SA/CSA is so insidious--it is a difficult crime to detect. It is sad that there have been victims in this church and that it seems not a small number of ministers are guilty. I don't blame ministers for being clumsy in handling this--this is a new world for the 2x2s. However, it is also very reassuring to see that the church is taking the time to address the problem! That is a sign that the spirit of truth is still present. Hopefully a well-discerned balance is found to maintain a godly discretion while also rooting out what is wrong and ensuring victims receive justice and support. It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. Semi correct. Add to this the lie that Elders were told at the time. It was seeing if sister workers were scriptural, and after the nine months had passed, they were told that that there was a clear sign that they were. (Absence of baby bumps was a funny way of interpreting the clear sign). This was one of the lies that caused my grandfather to leave, when he found out about it. This was confirmed to my father also by Tom Hewson.
A lie, not unlike the one told when Demetrius came here from Greece....supposedly to learn the language. Learning the language was merely a bonus, the prime reason was the situation in Greece at the time.
And the lie about Hymns Old and New being updated in 1987 for copyright reasons. There were multiple reasons, including expunging Trinity references, Sing and Shout, Cooney credits, including more hymns written by workers such as Ken P. Copyright issues were only part.
Did the senior workers in the US and elsewhere think people were stupid? These things left a bitter taste in a number of senior professing people. My Uncle said, "I don't like being lied to."
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on May 3, 2023 15:37:47 GMT -5
It is by no means a new world for the 2x2's. Way back before world war one, William Irvine, the founder of this cult, visited New Zealand. The following year there were no sister workers on the list and they all found somethine else to do. Nine months after his visit the all clear would have been sounded and the sister workers were back being sister workers the following year. It is also not peculiar to this cult but wherever there are men and women there will be shenanagins. What is different is the deceptive behaviour. Semi correct. Add to this the lie that Elders were told at the time. It was seeing if sister workers were scriptural, and after the nine months had passed, they were told that that there was a clear sign that they were. (Absence of baby bumps was a funny way of interpreting the clear sign). This was one of the lies that caused my grandfather to leave, when he found out about it. This was confirmed to my father also by Tom Hewson.
A lie, not unlike the one told when Demetrius came here from Greece....supposedly to learn the language. Learning the language was merely a bonus, the prime reason was the situation in Greece at the time.
And the lie about Hymns Old and New being updated in 1987 for copyright reasons. There were multiple reasons, including expunging Trinity references, Sing and Shout, Cooney credits, including more hymns written by workers such as Ken P. Copyright issues were only part.
Did the senior workers in the US and elsewhere think people were stupid? These things left a bitter taste in a number of senior professing people. My Uncle said, "I don't like being lied to."
A wee question. Did all the sister workers prior to the visit of Irvine, go out in the work after the nine months was up or did some call it a day?
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