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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 12:54:52 GMT -5
My understanding is quite the opposite. Believers are more likely to be at peace and non believers fearful. Death bed conversions are not unheard of. As a hospice volunteer for six years, I found a lot of older folk were comfortable in their belief in seeing their god. Of course, I spend most of my time in a nursing home for Brethren pastors and their wives. Then there are those like my dad who was scared silly of believing the wrong thing. Was he "saved" (something he couldn't buy into) or not till he was judged? He was a former 2x2 and left the cult but still believed their teachings. Obviously he was missing something as his life was one of fear. His conscious, maybe? I found in my volunteer work in hospice that certain religions were more at peace than others. I did find some Christians that were at peace but I also remember a lot of questions asking me if I thought they were saved by some. I think the 2x2's don't really know if they are saved or not because they aren't part of the denominations that think 'once saved always saved', so it stands to reason that they might be not as peaceful? Religious people have a very hard time understanding atheists because they can't conceive a belief that there is nothing after death. For me it's one of the most peaceful aspects of being an atheist. When I die it's done!
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 12:57:13 GMT -5
Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world".
Also His early separation from Christianity began when he started to view his religion as a chore and a duty; around this time, he also gained an interest in the occult, as his studies expanded to include such topics. Being "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world," is not a very adult way of evaluating something so serious.
I just saw an interesting meme in another website. It says, “Atheists are absolutely certain of two things: 1) God does not exist, and 2) they hate him. Atheists don't hate gods. You can't hate what you don't believe exists in the first place. Some atheists do hate religions though. They see the harm they cause because they require people to forego facts for belief/faith. That's not a good place to be in their opinion.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 12:58:59 GMT -5
C.S Lewis says different... Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world".
Also His early separation from Christianity began when he started to view his religion as a chore and a duty; around this time, he also gained an interest in the occult, as his studies expanded to include such topics. Being "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world," is not a very adult way of evaluating something so serious.
Boy have I missed you! You always have such down to earth input. So glad to see you here
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2023 13:27:03 GMT -5
C.S Lewis says different... I don't care what he says. I have talked to a lot of atheists and they all did their 'research' when they were still Christians to prove that Christianity was right and then found out that it's history negates the probability of it being true and then realized that the probability of a God was also very low. So it sounds as though he went the opposite way. Thought he was an atheist when he really didn't know what the hell that even meant. He isn't the only one either, should we dismiss what you say too?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2023 13:32:21 GMT -5
I just saw an interesting meme in another website. It says, “Atheists are absolutely certain of two things: 1) God does not exist, and 2) they hate him. Atheists don't hate gods. You can't hate what you don't believe exists in the first place. Some atheists do hate religions though. They see the harm they cause because they require people to forego facts for belief/faith. That's not a good place to be in their opinion. If you've ever seen a debate between an atheist and a Christian it invariably gets around at some point to "If there is a God why does he allow evil, your God is hideous, your God is a monster, your God is a genocidal murderer" etc etc no one would state that without a bit of hate towards him...which is hilarious since they don't "believe" in him. It's a bit funny to see people punching at the wind, like Matt10 or curlytroll...
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Post by irish on Apr 7, 2023 14:34:17 GMT -5
I care what he says, as do many others. He was a very smart man who brought comfort to millions, and continues to bring comfort to millions through his writings. [/quote] Cool. Whatever turns your crank.[/quote] Never heard the expression ‘whatever turns your crank’.
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Post by 1chinesewhispers on Apr 7, 2023 15:03:42 GMT -5
Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world".
Also His early separation from Christianity began when he started to view his religion as a chore and a duty; around this time, he also gained an interest in the occult, as his studies expanded to include such topics. Being "very angry with God for not existing" and "equally angry with him for creating a world," is not a very adult way of evaluating something so serious.
Boy have I missed you! You always have such down to earth input. So glad to see you here Dmmichgood boy I have so missed you ! So happy to see you back on here .
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 15:56:52 GMT -5
I don't care what he says. I have talked to a lot of atheists and they all did their 'research' when they were still Christians to prove that Christianity was right and then found out that it's history negates the probability of it being true and then realized that the probability of a God was also very low. So it sounds as though he went the opposite way. Thought he was an atheist when he really didn't know what the hell that even meant. He isn't the only one either, should we dismiss what you say too? From where I stand, I would say it's pretty unlikely they were ever an atheist that gave it much thought. Agnostic yes, that I could believe. Once you go to that next step, you usually know why you're an atheist. Saying you became an atheist because you were mad at god and didn't want to comply is no reason to be an atheist. In fact I would say they definitely aren't an atheist if they could still be mad at something they aren't supposed to even believe exists.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 16:02:51 GMT -5
Atheists don't hate gods. You can't hate what you don't believe exists in the first place. Some atheists do hate religions though. They see the harm they cause because they require people to forego facts for belief/faith. That's not a good place to be in their opinion. If you've ever seen a debate between an atheist and a Christian it invariably gets around at some point to "If there is a God why does he allow evil, your God is hideous, your God is a monster, your God is a genocidal murderer" etc etc no one would state that without a bit of hate towards him...which is hilarious since they don't "believe" in him. It's a bit funny to see people punching at the wind, like Matt10 or curlytroll... Pointing out that the entity someone else believes in is a monster does not in any way state that they hate that entity. For me I hate what the belief in that entity has done to people. That doesn't mean I believe that entity exists. But it does exist for them and that is what the conversation has to address. I really dislike religion because of the harm it does imo. I also see that it comforts some people so I am more tolerant in that way. I don't hate whichever god they believe exists. Do you hate Allah or all the Hindu gods? Probably not because you don't believe they exist.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 7, 2023 16:46:53 GMT -5
I care what he says, as do many others. He was a very smart man who brought comfort to millions, and continues to bring comfort to millions through his writings. Never heard the expression ‘whatever turns your crank’. Maybe you don't have a crank.
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irish
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Post by irish on Apr 7, 2023 16:58:36 GMT -5
I care what he says, as do many others. He was a very smart man who brought comfort to millions, and continues to bring comfort to millions through his writings. Cool. Whatever turns your crank. Never heard the expression ‘whatever turns your crank’.[/quote] Maybe you don't have a crank.[/quote] I don’t think I do! Do you? I’m intrigued. Tell me about your crank 😆
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 7, 2023 17:02:01 GMT -5
From where I stand, I would say it's pretty unlikely they were ever an atheist that gave it much thought. Agnostic yes, that I could believe. Once you go to that next step, you usually know why you're an atheist. Saying you became an atheist because you were mad at god and didn't want to comply is no reason to be an atheist. In fact I would say they definitely aren't an atheist if they could still be mad at something they aren't supposed to even believe exists. Most people would not know why they are an atheist. They were brought up without any understanding or knowledge of God. They are because they are. Getting mad at God could be part of the process of becoming an athiest. Didn't C S Lewis become a believer again? I'll have to read up on it unless someone can enlighten me. I don't know about that. Getting mad at Biden will not make a person believe Biden doesn't exist. If you get mad at Santa Claus -- why did you choose Santa Claus? Perhaps it's a way to cover for your lying parents, but I doubt it.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 17:28:03 GMT -5
From where I stand, I would say it's pretty unlikely they were ever an atheist that gave it much thought. Agnostic yes, that I could believe. Once you go to that next step, you usually know why you're an atheist. Saying you became an atheist because you were mad at god and didn't want to comply is no reason to be an atheist. In fact I would say they definitely aren't an atheist if they could still be mad at something they aren't supposed to even believe exists. Most people would not know why they are an atheist. They were brought up without any understanding or knowledge of God. They are because they are. Getting mad at God could be part of the process of becoming an athiest. Didn't C S Lewis become a believer again? I'll have to read up on it unless someone can enlighten me. Most atheists that I know were once religious. Speaking about the group that I'm a part of, all were religious believers before they could no longer believe a god exists. They came from various religions. Yes, I imagine some journeys towards non belief is initially anger at how their god doesn't do anything for the world they supposedly created and cares for. But if you finally do reach the status of atheist you are no longer angry with any god entity. It would make no sense. The very status of being angry with god means you still believe one exists and atheists do not think one exists. My point is that I don't disbelief Christians become mad at their god but then could go back to it again. It's just that you aren't an atheist if you're mad at a god.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2023 17:35:38 GMT -5
He isn't the only one either, should we dismiss what you say too? From where I stand, I would say it's pretty unlikely they were ever an atheist that gave it much thought. Agnostic yes, that I could believe. Once you go to that next step, you usually know why you're an atheist. Saying you became an atheist because you were mad at god and didn't want to comply is no reason to be an atheist. In fact I would say they definitely aren't an atheist if they could still be mad at something they aren't supposed to even believe exists. If you read more about his thoughts on Christianity than a couple lines you wouldn't say that... It's like saying a Christian who sins was never a Christian. Many think that but its not fact...
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2023 17:41:10 GMT -5
If you've ever seen a debate between an atheist and a Christian it invariably gets around at some point to "If there is a God why does he allow evil, your God is hideous, your God is a monster, your God is a genocidal murderer" etc etc no one would state that without a bit of hate towards him...which is hilarious since they don't "believe" in him. It's a bit funny to see people punching at the wind, like Matt10 or curlytroll... Pointing out that the entity someone else believes in is a monster does not in any way state that they hate that entity. For me I hate what the belief in that entity has done to people. That doesn't mean I believe that entity exists. But it does exist for them and that is what the conversation has to address. I really dislike religion because of the harm it does imo. I also see that it comforts some people so I am more tolerant in that way. I don't hate whichever god they believe exists. Do you hate Allah or all the Hindu gods? Probably not because you don't believe they exist. Coming to those conclusions about God "monster, hideous, genocidal, murderer" etc wouldn't be a sign of love, of course its hate. All false gods are just Satan and his crony angels playing games, very real. Yes, I do hate them...
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 17:43:18 GMT -5
From where I stand, I would say it's pretty unlikely they were ever an atheist that gave it much thought. Agnostic yes, that I could believe. Once you go to that next step, you usually know why you're an atheist. Saying you became an atheist because you were mad at god and didn't want to comply is no reason to be an atheist. In fact I would say they definitely aren't an atheist if they could still be mad at something they aren't supposed to even believe exists. If you read more about his thoughts on Christianity than a couple lines you wouldn't say that... It's like saying a Christian who sins was never a Christian. Many think that but its not fact... While I would never say he was never a Christian because he sinned, you could be right that I don't know enough about Lewis' journey. My point is this. You aren't an atheist if you're mad at a god.
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2023 17:47:30 GMT -5
Pointing out that the entity someone else believes in is a monster does not in any way state that they hate that entity. For me I hate what the belief in that entity has done to people. That doesn't mean I believe that entity exists. But it does exist for them and that is what the conversation has to address. I really dislike religion because of the harm it does imo. I also see that it comforts some people so I am more tolerant in that way. I don't hate whichever god they believe exists. Do you hate Allah or all the Hindu gods? Probably not because you don't believe they exist. Coming to those conclusions about God "monster, hideous, genocidal, murderer" etc wouldn't be a sign of love, of course its hate. All false gods are just Satan and his crony angels playing games, very real. Yes, I do hate them... What you aren't getting is this. They don't believe in the god described in the bible. However, they do point out to people who do believe in that god that the entity described in their book is a monster etc. because they can read and form opinions on what the bible says and express those opinions without believing in any god in the bible. I can give an opinion on any book I have read without believing the character in the book exists. And I could very well think the character in the book is monstrously evil.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2023 17:47:56 GMT -5
From where I stand, I would say it's pretty unlikely they were ever an atheist that gave it much thought. Agnostic yes, that I could believe. Once you go to that next step, you usually know why you're an atheist. Saying you became an atheist because you were mad at god and didn't want to comply is no reason to be an atheist. In fact I would say they definitely aren't an atheist if they could still be mad at something they aren't supposed to even believe exists. Most people would not know why they are an atheist. They were brought up without any understanding or knowledge of God. They are because they are. Getting mad at God could be part of the process of becoming an athiest. Didn't C S Lewis become a believer again? I'll have to read up on it unless someone can enlighten me. Yes, he did he had more than 1 or 2 lines about why he was an atheist and why he didn't believe in God. He posited all the same arguments that we hear today about why there is no God before he converted back to Christianity. He was about 32 when he converted To Christianity. So was well past having any "kids" view on the issue.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2023 17:54:53 GMT -5
Coming to those conclusions about God "monster, hideous, genocidal, murderer" etc wouldn't be a sign of love, of course its hate. All false gods are just Satan and his crony angels playing games, very real. Yes, I do hate them... What you aren't getting is this. They don't believe in the god described in the bible. However, they do point out to people who do believe in that god that the entity described in their book is a monster etc. because they can read and form opinions on what the bible says and express those opinions without believing in any god in the bible. I can give an opinion on any book I have read without believing the character in the book exists. And I could very well think the character in the book is monstrously evil. You couldn't come to any conclusion or opinion or think (if that's your word) like that without expressing hate or love or indifference for it.
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Post by Grant on Apr 7, 2023 18:35:22 GMT -5
Most people would not know why they are an atheist. They were brought up without any understanding or knowledge of God. They are because they are. Getting mad at God could be part of the process of becoming an athiest. Didn't C S Lewis become a believer again? I'll have to read up on it unless someone can enlighten me. I don't know about that. Getting mad at Biden will not make a person believe Biden doesn't exist. If you get mad at Santa Claus -- why did you choose Santa Claus? Perhaps it's a way to cover for your lying parents, but I doubt it. There is a group of people who believe Biden no longer exists. They believe that it's a clone or actor in his place. Remember our friend Shushy. There was certainly a lot of angry Republicans at Biden winning the election.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 7, 2023 19:35:14 GMT -5
I don't know about that. Getting mad at Biden will not make a person believe Biden doesn't exist. If you get mad at Santa Claus -- why did you choose Santa Claus? Perhaps it's a way to cover for your lying parents, but I doubt it. There is a group of people who believe Biden no longer exists. They believe that it's a clone or actor in his place. Remember our friend Shushy. There was certainly a lot of angry Republicans at Biden winning the election. True, but I can't quite accept that such specimens are any more mature than the kids who leave cookies for Santa Claus the night before Christmas.
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Post by snow on Apr 8, 2023 14:39:28 GMT -5
What you aren't getting is this. They don't believe in the god described in the bible. However, they do point out to people who do believe in that god that the entity described in their book is a monster etc. because they can read and form opinions on what the bible says and express those opinions without believing in any god in the bible. I can give an opinion on any book I have read without believing the character in the book exists. And I could very well think the character in the book is monstrously evil. You couldn't come to any conclusion or opinion or think (if that's your word) like that without expressing hate or love or indifference for it. Some can't because they truly hate what religions do to our world. I am more temperate in my views in that regard and do see how it seems to help people. So if you hate religions because of the hatred, vengeance and retribution preached in the bible, I don't think there is an alternative to hate for some. But it's not the god they hate, it's the rhetoric that they hate because in their opinion it horrific. We all hate what we feel is horrific. I really hate what religions make people do. So I do express hate for that. But I can also see some good and can express that also. A lot of atheists don't see any good to religious beliefs because they believe 1. they are false and therefore give false hope to the believers and 2. they believe that religions have incited wars, but not just wars, also infiltrating society in negative ways because they are based on the bible and some of what that book teaches is truly horrific. When that is brought into the governing of countries, governments etc. it does harm. Religious zealots like to impose their beliefs onto all other citizens that do not believe what their religion dictates. So there is a great deal of hatred towards religions that dictate and force others to live under their particular belief system. That was a rather long way of saying, no sometimes there is no way to express what religion does and it's impact without hatred of it's influences. Some atheists are indifferent. I would say a majority are indifferent. But there is a growing number that see how it impacts their world and they aren't indifferent. They do express their hatred towards the bible, quran, etc. because they do instigate hatred towards people that the bible or the quran say are abominations for example. We wouldn't be doing that if these religions didn't teach that kind of hate rhetoric.
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Post by Annan on Apr 8, 2023 15:35:47 GMT -5
Atheism is a relationship with reality.
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Post by mountain on Apr 8, 2023 19:36:28 GMT -5
Atheism is a relationship with reality. Correction.......... it is a relationship with what that category of person thinks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2023 23:09:31 GMT -5
You couldn't come to any conclusion or opinion or think (if that's your word) like that without expressing hate or love or indifference for it. Some can't because they truly hate what religions do to our world. I am more temperate in my views in that regard and do see how it seems to help people. So if you hate religions because of the hatred, vengeance and retribution preached in the bible, I don't think there is an alternative to hate for some. But it's not the god they hate, it's the rhetoric that they hate because in their opinion it horrific. We all hate what we feel is horrific. I really hate what religions make people do. So I do express hate for that. But I can also see some good and can express that also. A lot of atheists don't see any good to religious beliefs because they believe 1. they are false and therefore give false hope to the believers and 2. they believe that religions have incited wars, but not just wars, also infiltrating society in negative ways because they are based on the bible and some of what that book teaches is truly horrific. When that is brought into the governing of countries, governments etc. it does harm. Religious zealots like to impose their beliefs onto all other citizens that do not believe what their religion dictates. So there is a great deal of hatred towards religions that dictate and force others to live under their particular belief system. That was a rather long way of saying, no sometimes there is no way to express what religion does and it's impact without hatred of it's influences. Some atheists are indifferent. I would say a majority are indifferent. But there is a growing number that see how it impacts their world and they aren't indifferent. They do express their hatred towards the bible, quran, etc. because they do instigate hatred towards people that the bible or the quran say are abominations for example. We wouldn't be doing that if these religions didn't teach that kind of hate rhetoric. We'll have to agree to disagree...
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Post by luke2236 on Apr 16, 2023 17:08:51 GMT -5
Great site with many useful resources in destructing bad theology. It helps Christians understand why they feel so free in a context that doesn’t end in hell.
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