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Post by speak on May 18, 2019 1:33:41 GMT -5
They can't spend a lot on themselves it would be so obvious. I have know monies been given to the saints in dire straits from the ministry. True. I think this is why so much is spent on: - overseas travel - phones & laptops - convention grounds (despite them ridiculing church buildings). Not having a salary does free up significant funds. However, I would argue that is unbiblical (the worker is worthy his wages) and creates unnecessary bondage plus a host of other problems as we have learnt from experience (including mental health issues due to the constant strain of a difficult companion and living in someone else's house). I am glad to hear money has been given to those of the friends in need. It would be great if other Christian/humanitarian causes could be supported through regular offerings: www.cbm.org.au/Christian Blind Mission (CBM) is an international Christian development organisation devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities in the poorest places on earth. Poverty and disability go hand in hand creating a cycle of inequality, isolation and exclusion that leads to the most extreme forms of poverty. As I have posted before the Red Cross has and is a recipient. You you don't know everything and I would say you know very little but that doesn't stop your accusing finger does it. Look and see what is said about those who do such. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 18, 2019 3:00:24 GMT -5
As I have posted before the Red Cross has and is a recipient. You you don't know everything and I would say you know very little but that doesn't stop your accusing finger does it. Look and see what is said about those who do such. Yep, I don't know everything. Yes, very little. Not much more than the majority of the friends, I'd say. Why would that be? |
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Post by speak on May 18, 2019 3:33:02 GMT -5
As I have posted before the Red Cross has and is a recipient. You you don't know everything and I would say you know very little but that doesn't stop your accusing finger does it. Look and see what is said about those who do such. Yep, I don't know everything. Yes, very little. Not much more than the majority of the friends, I'd say. Why would that be? They know something you don't know. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 18, 2019 4:00:17 GMT -5
... you know very little but that doesn't stop your accusing finger does it. What an odd statement. Hasn't your organisation been pointing the accusing finger at every other church and Christian for... let's see... about 120 years now? |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 18, 2019 5:10:51 GMT -5
Yep, I don't know everything. Yes, very little. Not much more than the majority of the friends, I'd say. Why would that be? They know something you don't know. That 'ol esoteric feeling? Used to have it, was cured. Jesus is the great healer. Praise God! |
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Post by Lee on May 18, 2019 8:53:47 GMT -5
Good answer.
You were making me think of a lightning rod, taking strikes, so I looked up lightning rod quotes. This one by Ralph Waldo Emerson is ever poignant.
"The best lightning rod for your protection is your own spine".
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 18, 2019 10:37:41 GMT -5
True. I think this is why so much is spent on: - overseas travel - phones & laptops - convention grounds (despite them ridiculing church buildings). Not having a salary does free up significant funds. However, I would argue that is unbiblical (the worker is worthy his wages) and creates unnecessary bondage plus a host of other problems as we have learnt from experience (including mental health issues due to the constant strain of a difficult companion and living in someone else's house). I am glad to hear money has been given to those of the friends in need. It would be great if other Christian/humanitarian causes could be supported through regular offerings: www.cbm.org.au/Christian Blind Mission (CBM) is an international Christian development organisation devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities in the poorest places on earth. Poverty and disability go hand in hand creating a cycle of inequality, isolation and exclusion that leads to the most extreme forms of poverty. As I have posted before the Red Cross has and is a recipient. You you don't know everything and I would say you know very little but that doesn't stop your accusing finger does it. Look and see what is said about those who do such. There are some workers who are consistently doing their best to make sure that those who are in dire need are helped. Jim Brown was always sending or giving money to different needs in different places. Most often he sent to the poorer areas where friends and families have so very little. When my stepfather committed suicide, my mom was in the hospital unable to walk much less care for herself. I had to move her into a continuedcare facility close by until I figured out what her financial status was. Her affairs were completely undiscoverable. So I knew I had to leave her in the state she’d lived in for over 20 years if I was going to have to apply for state aid. I moved her to a small nursing home close to the next state where I lived so I could make sure to her care. With no money from her finances, I was really strapped hard. JImgave several hundred dollars to my mom’s sister to apply to her needs. It took e eight months to get her on veteran’s widow benefits. But when we got the lump sum back pay, I paid Jim back. He didn’t want to take it. I told him that we appreciated his help so very much and would he please take the refund because he was in a better position to know who else might be struggling. He did just that. I tell this to show there are big hearted workers that are very conscious of people’s natural needs as much as their spiritual needs. Yes, I know their charity is mostly amongst the members and their families but we have to realize that the societal rounds of the workers are limited to their church members mostly. Besides charity should begin at home. |
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Post by snow on May 18, 2019 12:26:41 GMT -5
Haha that might not go over well with the male workers... Do you think they will ever have a female overseer worker Nathan? Yes, that's what I thought too. I imagine anyone raised to believe that women are to be subservient to males wouldn't feel comfortable in that position. I'm sure the male workers would give a female overseer a hard time, in the beginning anyway. Not all of course. I am glad they are respected enough to be asked for advice though. A woman can add a whole new idea to a situation, just like a man can add a whole new idea to a group of women in charge. We think differently, but sometimes one way of thinking is better than the other in different circumstances. In your experience, do the overseers actually take the senior sister's advice? |
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Post by snow on May 18, 2019 12:29:57 GMT -5
Yes I heard reports about large amounts of money stashed away and quite possibly that's true about I never witnessed any individual workers spending up large . It imagine it takes a huge amount of money to keep workers in baches overseas, run conventions and countries with friends maybe don't have the money to contribute. Of course there is going to be more money available because the workers are not paid a wage. As for going in faith: you mentioned they don't go in faith anymore than any other church. I don't know how most churches ministers would react if they we're told they were not going to be paid and were not going to have a house provided.?? You also stated that the workers know who gives what. I totally disagree. People could give their money to the workers in their district, they could send it to the overseer, they could send it directly overseas, give it directly to friends in need, or give to any of the above anonymously. The churches that are accountable and transparent - who gave what would have to be reported to the secretary, who would have to enter it into the books and yes it is on record. I'm just trying to give balanced view here because I think people tend to get very uptight about things they assume often without actually knowing the facts. Just a quick comment re what you said about who gave what being reported to the secretary - this is not correct. I understand you may not have familiarity with how offerings are collected in other churches. Generally a bag or plate is passed around. Our church uses a bag with a round wooden rim and wooden handles either side. The giver has the money inside their palm, rolled up, and their whole hand goes into the bag to release the money. There is no way even for the person sitting next to you to know how much you gave - it could be 50c or $200. The bags are then emptied after the service in a the presence of two witnesses (we say they should not be related to each other, for good practice), where it is counted, and annotated and signed before being passed to a 3rd person to bank. It is literally impossible to know who gave what. Money can also be placed in an envelope (identical envelopes are provided) with the name of a mission or cause that we support written on the front. No names - but it is counted to then distribute to that mission. Of course, many also give to other Christian missions / causes privately. I don't know if you are in Australia or US - maybe US does it different because donations are tax deductible? I'm not sure. In Australia our money is already taxed, and we do NOT get any tax deductions for donations to the church. That would be a better way I think. That way there is a level of transparency that you just don't see in the Truth group. It leads to questions exactly like we see here when there isn't some kind of a system to keep track of things. |
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Post by Dennis J on May 18, 2019 13:13:05 GMT -5
While not a worker now, when I was, MY God would from time to time lay it upon me to share what little I had with another, I did so each time, remembering once when it was an injured friend and his wife, both whom I cared for a great deal. Why should I doubt the Lord’s presence and dealings among them today? That is up to each individual, not true?
We live as both, givers and receivers. Our sports terminology is “leaving it all on the field.” Some of us have done that in the past, some likely now in the present, some in the future. May our Lord’s will be done.
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Post by nathan on May 18, 2019 14:21:59 GMT -5
No, I don't think so. The sister workers feel that is NOT their place to be in charge over the brother workers. However, many overseers, senior workers, and workers do have a LOT of respect for certain senior sister workers and they do ask for their advices on different issues. Yes, that's what I thought too. I imagine anyone raised to believe that women are to be subservient to males wouldn't feel comfortable in that position. I'm sure the male workers would give a female overseer a hard time, in the beginning anyway. Not all of course. I am glad they are respected enough to be asked for advice though. A woman can add a whole new idea to a situation, just like a man can add a whole new idea to a group of women in charge. We think differently, but sometimes one way of thinking is better than the other in different circumstances. In your experience, do the overseers actually take the senior sister's advice? ** I have worked with many women in my life and many of them are much smarter than me and they can do my job better than me. So, I have a great repect for women in authority. |
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Post by continuer on May 18, 2019 15:38:01 GMT -5
As a general rule, I am in favour of transparency and opposed to secrecy (so long as individual donations and donors are not identified). I also strongly feel that workers should fall into line with whatever the rules of the particular jurisdiction under which they operate in are in respect of tax and other rules etc. ("Let every soul be subject to the higher powers" etc.). On a slightly different level, I know of a professing family who experienced a tragedy and needed funds urgently - they were not well off and struggled to make ends meet. One of the elders in that city asked the friends to put whatever they could afford in sealed envelopes and give the envelopes to him. The family was given a bag containing a number of envelopes and no-one (apart from the original donors and the Lord) knew who gave what. I remember thinking at the time that this is "love in action". Going back to the workers, I dislike the practice of leaving large legacies to the Work. I prefer to give what I can in lifetime (when I feel moved to do so) and leaving what I have left over to the Work when I shuffle off this mortal coil smacks to me of giving to God what was left over that I didn't need for myself (I don't see much sacrifice in that). But that is just a personal view.
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 18, 2019 16:36:20 GMT -5
As a general rule, I am in favour of transparency and opposed to secrecy (so long as individual donations and donors are not identified). I also strongly feel that workers should fall into line with whatever the rules of the particular jurisdiction under which they operate in are in respect of tax and other rules etc. ("Let every soul be subject to the higher powers" etc.). On a slightly different level, I know of a professing family who experienced a tragedy and needed funds urgently - they were not well off and struggled to make ends meet. One of the elders in that city asked the friends to put whatever they could afford in sealed envelopes and give the envelopes to him. The family was given a bag containing a number of envelopes and no-one (apart from the original donors and the Lord) knew who gave what. I remember thinking at the time that this is "love in action". Going back to the workers, I dislike the practice of leaving large legacies to the Work. I prefer to give what I can in lifetime (when I feel moved to do so) and leaving what I have left over to the Work when I shuffle off this mortal coil smacks to me of giving to God what was left over that I didn't need for myself (I don't see much sacrifice in that). But that is just a personal view. Reminded me of a hymn my gram used to sing: Give Me The Roses While I Live The chorus goes on to say title line and finishes with “Trying to cheer me on. Brief are the flowers that we give, ...” |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 18, 2019 17:45:56 GMT -5
As I have posted before the Red Cross has and is a recipient. You you don't know everything and I would say you know very little but that doesn't stop your accusing finger does it. Look and see what is said about those who do such. There are some workers who are consistently doing their best to make sure that those who are in dire need are helped. Jim Brown was always sending or giving money to different needs in different places. Most often he sent to the poorer areas where friends and families have so very little. When my stepfather committed suicide, my mom was in the hospital unable to walk much less care for herself. I had to move her into a continuedcare facility close by until I figured out what her financial status was. Her affairs were completely undiscoverable. So I knew I had to leave her in the state she’d lived in for over 20 years if I was going to have to apply for state aid. I moved her to a small nursing home close to the next state where I lived so I could make sure to her care. With no money from her finances, I was really strapped hard. JImgave several hundred dollars to my mom’s sister to apply to her needs. It took e eight months to get her on veteran’s widow benefits. But when we got the lump sum back pay, I paid Jim back. He didn’t want to take it. I told him that we appreciated his help so very much and would he please take the refund because he was in a better position to know who else might be struggling. He did just that. I tell this to show there are big hearted workers that are very conscious of people’s natural needs as much as their spiritual needs. Yes, I know their charity is mostly amongst the members and their families but we have to realize that the societal rounds of the workers are limited to their church members mostly. Besides charity should begin at home. A great story. Thanks for sharing. I think this is exactly what the early church in the NT had in mind when it appointed deacons to look out for the poor and widows. |
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Post by joanna on May 18, 2019 18:41:41 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman . If "Jesus is the great healer", why is a CSA Redress Scheme needed? And why has he not relieved you of your antipathy towards the 2x2 church?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 4:36:59 GMT -5
If "Jesus is the great healer", why is a CSA Redress Scheme needed? And why has he not relieved you of your antipathy towards the 2x2 church? Jesus is the great teacher of mercy, compassion and justice, and exhorts his followers to do likewise. I think these values perfectly align with a CSA-RS. I am truly sorry that you find his teachings and followers so offensive. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 18:22:55 GMT -5
And why has he not relieved you of your antipathy towards the 2x2 church? Hmm. Urging the Two-by-twos to enact a CSA-RS is antipathy? Such an enactment would make people think better of them, not worse. It is also the right thing to do. If you are not encouraging this I would question why. Your strong bias against all ex2x2s who are Christians seems to cloud your judgement. <iframe width="21.019999999999982" height="3.5600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 21.019999999999982px; height: 3.5600000000000023px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_66436599" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="21.019999999999982" height="3.5600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 21.02px; height: 3.56px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 994px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_58896888" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="21.019999999999982" height="3.5600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 21.02px; height: 3.56px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 118px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_67180843" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="21.019999999999982" height="3.5600000000000023" style="position: absolute; width: 21.02px; height: 3.56px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 994px; top: 118px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_79240440" scrolling="no"></iframe> |
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Post by joanna on May 19, 2019 19:59:52 GMT -5
elizabethcolemanYou stated on your thread where you are presenting a CSA redress scheme as a vital process to assist in the rehabilitation / healing and recompense for 2x2 victims of CSA. It is disingenuous of you to act as if your antipathy towards the 2x2's is an acute attitude & specific to CSA given that even in this thread you took the opportunity to divert into one of your multiple oppositions to the 2x2's- their financial management. Your assertion you were 'cured of some feeling' is as interesting as it is egocentric, as the burden of negativity you retain towards people who believe in the same god as you do, has to erode into positive aspects of your life . If you were able to relegate the 2x2 grp to the proverbial box and nail its' lid, it would have to be liberating (there are even biblical verses which encourage such an action). If Jesus is the great healer - why are so many children of faithful parents abused within their faith groups? Healing is (alleged) achieved via prayer. When the little child was lying in their bed at night, and the perpetrator came into their room and started attacking them, of course those little children would have prayed to their loving saviour. Churches encourage their children to trust and believe in the power of Jesus to protect them. Research into CSA has shown that the abuse is repetitive and extends over years. So implying that Jesus is active and a healer infers these children were unworthy of his intervention. This is obscene and the reason for the above "egocentric" reference- you are "healed" of some feeling whilst children are abused!? Jesus has completed failed to protect infinite numbers of children. Therefore your proposal that a CSA redress scheme is necessary , concurrent to your claim that "Jesus heals", makes Zero sense - it is incongruent. If "Jesus is the great healer" why is the CSA Redress Scheme necessary? You have not answered the question. Member of the Royal Commission represented the legal, disability advocacy and mental health disciplines. During the five year inquiry into CSA this Committee did not evoke supernatural assistance. The committee's final recommendations intended to remediate the effects of CSA on the many victims relied on rational inquiry and evidenced-based research. Your suggestion that a solely human intervention aligns with christian values, when religious institutions of all genres, specifically those who claim that Jesus is an alive and present saviour, were a cesspool for CSA is another irrational statement.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 20:28:36 GMT -5
Your suggestion that a solely human intervention aligns with christian values, when religious institutions of all genres, specifically those who claim that Jesus is an alive and present saviour, were a cesspool for CSA is another irrational statement. You neglect to mention that non-religious institutions were also a cesspool. But then, you only ever rage against the religious, don't you? It is a sad fact that most abuse happens within families. Again, you fail to indicate any support for a CSA-RS within the 2x2s, as other churches have done. Why is that? |
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Post by joanna on May 19, 2019 20:38:25 GMT -5
elizabethcolemanPlease do a search using "Joanna" and include the terms "CSA"; "Redress" ; "religious" & "2x2's" so you can correct your false accusations.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 20:57:17 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman Please do a search using "Joanna" and include the terms "CSA"; "Redress" ; "religious" & "2x2's" so you can correct your false accusations. It doesn't help. It just comes up with this thread. It must be buried deep somewhere within your lectures against Christians and churches. A direct re-quote would assist. |
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Post by joanna on May 19, 2019 21:27:03 GMT -5
elizabethcolemanThis thread is enough to prove you wrong but others would help. When i search using that method, it opens up mult threads. Maybe god has infected your computer with an anti-research virus  I can't help enjoying the irony of your incessant snide comments - the latest being "lectures".
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 21:31:45 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman This thread is enough to prove you wrong but others would help. When i search using that method, it opens up mult threads. Maybe god has infected your computer with an anti-research virus I can't help enjoying the irony of your incessant snide comments - the latest being "lectures". LOL - many have been the recipient of your lectures, Joanna. It's not snide - just literal. I've been through again, and nope - definitely can't find it. I respectfully request you withdraw your accusation of my "false accusations" or post the evidence. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 19, 2019 22:12:07 GMT -5
I see this thread being about a Redress in the 2*2 church, for want of a better term. I don't see it as being about equating beliefs with other churches, validating beliefs, addressing consistencies with redress in other organisations. In the church, it's either a good thing to setup, or it isn't, and then the reasons why, or why not.
CSA occurs in a number of organisations, people groups and families, but the topic is redress in the 2*2 church.
I am unsure of how the mechanism could work, or should work, but in principle, I think it is a good idea.
To those that suggest the church doesn't give to charities, that is wrong. At one point, the Red Cross said it was the only church to give to it in "peace time". I have also taken parcels of money overseas to some families, not necessarily professing either, on behalf of the church. However, it would be nice to see some form of register, even if only to prove the doubters wrong.
A comment was made to me once by an ex-worker, that a senior worker was tripping all over the world, probably on some poor widow's last mite. Again, it would be nice to have some accountability, but I do not know logistically how it could be done given the very Lassez-faire way the church operates.
Maybe a website that has financial reporting similar to the lines of a Body Corporate? And then a reserve set aside for any redress, of any kind.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 19, 2019 22:48:47 GMT -5
I see this thread being about a Redress in the 2*2 church, for want of a better term. I don't see it as being about equating beliefs with other churches, validating beliefs, addressing consistencies with redress in other organisations. In the church, it's either a good thing to setup, or it isn't, and then the reasons why, or why not. CSA occurs in a number of organisations, people groups and families, but the topic is redress in the 2*2 church. I am unsure of how the mechanism could work, or should work, but in principle, I think it is a good idea. To those that suggest the church doesn't give to charities, that is wrong. At one point, the Red Cross said it was the only church to give to it in "peace time". I have also taken parcels of money overseas to some families, not necessarily professing either, on behalf of the church. However, it would be nice to see some form of register, even if only to prove the doubters wrong. A comment was made to me once by an ex-worker, that a senior worker was tripping all over the world, probably on some poor widow's last mite. Again, it would be nice to have some accountability, but I do not know logistically how it could be done given the very Lassez-faire way the church operates. Maybe a website that has financial reporting similar to the lines of a Body Corporate? And then a reserve set aside for any redress, of any kind. Thanks for your comments, Pragmatic. You live up to your name. I'm genuinely curious about that Red Cross comment. How exactly did the Red Cross identify the 2x2 church and its giving, considering it is "not an organisation" and has no name? Perhaps it was done under a registered name (ie Christian conventions?). Nevertheless, it probably is true. Most churches tend to give to more explicitly Christian work (please accept this as a neutral statement), such as those that distribute Bibles or preach the Word alongside their charity work. I understand the Red Cross would be seen by the 2x2s as a neutral and worthy cause. It is. Really good questions about how the CSA would work. Most churches set up a committee within the church to address these issues, do the research, figure out those hard questions and reasonable answers. They would need to have some overarching Terms of Reference and guiding principles. Hopefully they could find some good consultants (both within and without the church) to help figure it out. There are a lot of excellent guiding principles in Australia's Royal Commission recommendations as posted early in the thread. A small committee for each major country/state could share notes with each other and act under the same guiding principles. With the financial reporting you mentioned, I suspect this already needs to be done to some degree in most countries. We have evidence of the group being registered here in Australia under the ACNC (Australian Charities Not-for-Profit Commission) which would require financial statements to be submitted. Most churches would also provide this to their members (in fact Associated Incorporations are required by law to do so), but the 2x2s do not. I suspect it is less lassez faire than you'd think. They've gone to significant trouble setting up trusts and bank accounts all over the world, just out of sight of members. In some instances we have troubling evidence of names of "committee members" of the "corporation" being submitted to government without those members even being aware it. |
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Post by Pragmatic on May 20, 2019 3:31:47 GMT -5
Probably easier to do here in NZ than in Oz.
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Post by joanna on May 20, 2019 5:38:08 GMT -5
elizabethcolemanAll it requires is to submit the correct terms and you will read multiple comments from numerous threads to inform of my stance on the 2x2 attitude to CSA. For one example refer to my comment dated 16/05 on this thread also ask yourself why i clicked "like" on your 15/05 5.46pm post. Your responses repeatedly reveal a "selective attention" as you are primed to overlook my anti-2x2 grp comments for to do so does not support your narrative. The focus, which you and a few others maintain, involves judging the 2x2 grp by a standard which you desist applying to other churches. The excuse that 'this forum is supposed to be about the 2x2 group' is one which those of you who participate in this practice apply to validate bigotry. How can any reasoned, fair-minded christian justify their indulgence in religious sectarianism knowing the disastrous consequences this has had throughout history? And the endeavour to keep the microscope critically focused on the 2x2 group is prejudiced and discriminatory. Those of us who have removed ourselves from All religious beliefs have repeatedly exemplified that all faiths have the same issues: whether fiscal mismanagement and greed; unreported and unsupported victims of CSA; disagreements about biblical interpretations; secrecy when it suits; exclusivity; hypocrisy etc, that the 2x2 grp also demonstrates. This forum is designed to incite antagonism against the 2x2 group and anyone who contributes to this incitement undermines their own integrity. Whilst the criticisms against this group are valid - presenting the issues as if exclusive to this grp is not. When you do find the comments i've made about CSA and the 2x2's, you will likely also note references to the Royal Commission into CSA and the obligations that the 2x2 church has to conform to the legal requirements related to CSA (60 mins episode re CSA in 2x2's & Alan Kitto's CSA letter on Professing Open Air threads). Now i would appreciate if you could answer why children are sexually abused in religious institutions if "Jesus is the great healer"? And why is a Redress Scheme required if your claim about his healing powers is correct? (it is illogical to suggest i oppose a redress scheme by posing this question). The Royal Commission recorded that CSA was more prevalent in religious institutions so regarding these as 'a cesspool for CSA' is unfortunately not an exaggeration.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 20, 2019 6:15:12 GMT -5
joanna , If you cannot quote the references they must pretty opaque. There is obviously no goodwill here. Sorry, but I have neither the time, interest nor desire to expend effort in your ongoing dialogue. You have repeatedly stated your complete contempt for all religion, so what would be point in trying to convince you otherwise? This could actually be a constructive thread for the good of all if you didn't constantly try to divert to your own personal hobby horse debate. Adieu.
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