Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 20, 2019 10:01:24 GMT -5
The overseer over the eastern half of the USA does not believe in helping lowley friends. Just ask him. He will tell you to go to the government for help that is what the friends pay taxes for. Funny he lives on the welfare of others. Tells his fellow workers to apply for medicaid even when they are not citizens of the USA and have never paid a dime in taxes.
The workers will never pay for their CSA sins on this earth monetarily of other wise. I just take comfort that there is a God above that will judge them according to how they have treated others.
|
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 20, 2019 19:18:06 GMT -5
elizabethcolemanAll it requires is to submit the correct terms and you will read multiple comments from numerous threads to inform of my stance on the 2x2 attitude to CSA. For one example refer to my comment dated 16/05 on this thread also ask yourself why i clicked "like" on your 15/05 5.46pm post. Your responses repeatedly reveal a "selective attention" as you are primed to overlook my anti-2x2 grp comments for to do so does not support your narrative. The focus, which you and a few others maintain, involves judging the 2x2 grp by a standard which you desist applying to other churches. The excuse that 'this forum is supposed to be about the 2x2 group' is one which those of you who participate in this practice apply to validate bigotry. How can any reasoned, fair-minded christian justify their indulgence in religious sectarianism knowing the disastrous consequences this has had throughout history? And the endeavour to keep the microscope critically focused on the 2x2 group is prejudiced and discriminatory. Those of us who have removed ourselves from All religious beliefs have repeatedly exemplified that all faiths have the same issues: whether fiscal mismanagement and greed; unreported and unsupported victims of CSA; disagreements about biblical interpretations; secrecy when it suits; exclusivity; hypocrisy etc, that the 2x2 grp also demonstrates. This forum is designed to incite antagonism against the 2x2 group and anyone who contributes to this incitement undermines their own integrity. Whilst the criticisms against this group are valid - presenting the issues as if exclusive to this grp is not. When you do find the comments i've made about CSA and the 2x2's, you will likely also note references to the Royal Commission into CSA and the obligations that the 2x2 church has to conform to the legal requirements related to CSA (60 mins episode re CSA in 2x2's & Alan Kitto's CSA letter on Professing Open Air threads). Now i would appreciate if you could answer why children are sexually abused in religious institutions if "Jesus is the great healer"? And why is a Redress Scheme required if your claim about his healing powers is correct? (it is illogical to suggest i oppose a redress scheme by posing this question). The Royal Commission recorded that CSA was more prevalent in religious institutions so regarding these as 'a cesspool for CSA' is unfortunately not an exaggeration. JMT but while CSA can be found in any organization, religious groups seem to have the more prevalent tendency to downplay it or hide it for as long as possible. The Catholic Church is a very good example of that, but they all seem to do it to some degree. Because of their religious beliefs and their belief they have the patent on morality, it's not as easy for them to admit that it exists in God's churches just like in the 'world of heathens'. This is usually the fault of the leaders though. The members don't seem to need to hide it as much as the leaders. In fact, the members are often the recipients of the crime and need the transparency and protection the most. Of course the leaders have the most to lose and it's more often them that are committing the crime in the first place. Which of course makes it even worse and more reason to hide. Reputations and protecting their religion is a higher priority because of the nature of the organization and what they preach in the first place. Because of what churches preach and claim, they usually know they are held to a higher standard and when that standard isn't any different from any secular organization (CSA can happen anywhere) it makes the church look like they have failed to prove God does work in their lives and that they are more moral because they have the Holy spirit and God in their lives, unlike the secular world. They make no such claims so when someone is found to be abusing children, they are more likely to report it to the authorities. I imagine secular organizations that deal in childcare might be an exception because they too have a lot more to lose. They are in the business of protecting children after all and it can really slam the their reputation and do damage to their finances. The latest that I read on how the RCC will handle csa cases, they are still advocating taking it to the authorities 'within' the church first. All that says to me is that they feel the need to assess it and do damage control. |
|
|
|
Post by joanna on May 20, 2019 20:37:23 GMT -5
This thread advises the 2x2 church group to conform to the Final Report Recommendations of the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex AbuseWhen ElizabethColeman stated that Jesus is the great healer i believed this claim undermined the very intention of her thread. The Royal Commission inquiry "revealed that many religious leaders knew of allegations of child sexual abuse yet failed to take effective action. Some ignored allegations and did not respond at all". The claim that "Jesus is the great healer" inspires christians to rely on him to 'redress' problems; the problem of CSA is one which religious leaders would prefer to keep under cover so placing their burdens on the one they believe will 'heal' is a convenient strategy. If you read the recent exchanges between Elizabeth and I, please note that she failed to validate her claim that Jesus is the great healer and instead used a range of tactics to avoid answering the question i posed: If Jesus is the great healer, why is a Redress Scheme needed? Surely even the most devout christian has a responsibility to acknowledge this claim is unsupported in reality. The child victims of CSA within christian churches did not receive protection from the one they are taught will protect them. It was irrational and dangerous to make that claim concurrent to encouraging the 2x2 's to do what is right for their victims of CSA which is to follow the Commission's Recommendations, including to join the Redress Scheme. Proclaiming that Jesus is the great healer provides a caveat for the 2x2's to ignore the evidenced-based recommendations and to instead rely on faith. There is a wealth of evidence that proves Jesus is Not the great healer. Recourse for CSA victims requires the 2x2 grp to abide by the law and to introduce processes which will support the victims. |
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on May 20, 2019 21:38:15 GMT -5
This thread advises the 2x2 church group to conform to the Final Report Recommendations of the Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sex AbuseWhen ElizabethColeman stated that Jesus is the great healer i believed this claim undermined the very intention of her thread. The Royal Commission inquiry "revealed that many religious leaders knew of allegations of child sexual abuse yet failed to take effective action. Some ignored allegations and did not respond at all". The claim that "Jesus is the great healer" inspires christians to rely on him to 'redress' problems; the problem of CSA is one which religious leaders would prefer to keep under cover so placing their burdens on the one they believe will 'heal' is a convenient strategy. If you read the recent exchanges between Elizabeth and I, please note that she failed to validate her claim that Jesus is the great healer and instead used a range of tactics to avoid answering the question i posed: If Jesus is the great healer, why is a Redress Scheme needed? Surely even the most devout christian has a responsibility to acknowledge this claim is unsupported in reality. The child victims of CSA within christian churches did not receive protection from the one they are taught will protect them. It was irrational and dangerous to make that claim concurrent to encouraging the 2x2 's to do what is right for their victims of CSA which is to follow the Commission's Recommendations, including to join the Redress Scheme. Proclaiming that Jesus is the great healer provides a caveat for the 2x2's to ignore the evidenced-based recommendations and to instead rely on faith. There is a wealth of evidence that proves Jesus is Not the great healer. Recourse for CSA victims requires the 2x2 grp to abide by the law and to introduce processes which will support the victims. Taking the concept of Jesus as the Healer, does not extrapolate out to providing counselling, legal aid, financial assistance etc. It instead implies the more abstract concept of providing power within to help overcome difficulties in conjunction with the aforementioned activities. It help with the healing of the mind, and I point to people like Derek Prince, and Stephen Lungu as evidence.
Therefore I cannot see what is irrational, or dangerous in making the claim, except if it flew in the face of someone who does not want to believe that while God (or whatever label you wish to ascribe to a power that is Universal) is the healer, he isn't the Doctor, the Psychiatrist, the Lawyer, or the Bank. If man does what he can, God will help do what man can't.
|
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 20, 2019 21:44:39 GMT -5
JMT but while CSA can be found in any organization, religious groups seem to have the more prevalent tendency to downplay it or hide it for as long as possible. The Catholic Church is a very good example of that, but they all seem to do it to some degree. Because of their religious beliefs and their belief they have the patent on morality, it's not as easy for them to admit that it exists in God's churches just like in the 'world of heathens'. This is usually the fault of the leaders though. The members don't seem to need to hide it as much as the leaders. In fact, the members are often the recipients of the crime and need the transparency and protection the most. Of course the leaders have the most to lose and it's more often them that are committing the crime in the first place. Which of course makes it even worse and more reason to hide. Reputations and protecting their religion is a higher priority because of the nature of the organization and what they preach in the first place. Because of what churches preach and claim, they usually know they are held to a higher standard and when that standard isn't any different from any secular organization (CSA can happen anywhere) it makes the church look like they have failed to prove God does work in their lives and that they are more moral because they have the Holy spirit and God in their lives, unlike the secular world. They make no such claims so when someone is found to be abusing children, they are more likely to report it to the authorities. I imagine secular organizations that deal in childcare might be an exception because they too have a lot more to lose. They are in the business of protecting children after all and it can really slam the their reputation and do damage to their finances. The latest that I read on how the RCC will handle csa cases, they are still advocating taking it to the authorities 'within' the church first. All that says to me is that they feel the need to assess it and do damage control. I agree, Snow, there are significant problems in the way the RCC is handling CSA cases. I'm currently reading "The Rise and Fall of George Pell", an Australian archbishop in the Catholic church who tried to circumvent the CSA redress being developed in the RCC by frog-leaping the developing scheme with his own to fast-track it and force it through on his terms. Distressingly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, has been spent on lawyers to protect abusers within the church. That money could have been used to compensate victims. George Pell is now serving 6 years himself due to historic sexual abuse charges of which he was found guilty just recently. When perpetrators are very high in the ranks, and trying to control the direction of CSA-redress, it is a recipe for disaster. Thanks also for your comments about reputations and protecting of systems with religious organisations - this is also a huge stumbling block. For me, Jesus was the great healer in curing me of the esoteric beliefs which I was under in the 2x2 system. My faith is no longer in a system, so I don't have to try and protect that system. I understand and respect that others like yourself have been healed in other ways. I liked your comment: In fact, the members are often the recipients of the crime and need the transparency and protection the most.
So true! Those in controlling systems are least likely to report, be threatened if they try to report. Where to from here? Some action is finally happening in some places in regards to 2x2 workers having training for CSA prevention. That was in no small part due to the long term efforts of Wings for Truth, an external organisation with supporters both internal and external raising awareness over time. I applaud their efforts. I think we all need to keep plugging away at keeping this issue alive and affirming it and recommending it, for the sake of both current and former members who are abuse survivors. I understand some try to undermine this because of their own standing in the group and need to still protect their system - that's sad. Others try to undermine it because of their own agenda - that's life. |
|
|
|
Post by joanna on May 20, 2019 22:12:57 GMT -5
Pragmatic . Do you believe in the following verses Pragmatic? Jesus is referred to as the "Wonderful Counsellor" yet you have contradicted that. Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.To be content with the things that you have and 'trust that he will never leave or forsake thee' presents as advising against the victims of CSA applying for recompense.
|
|
|
|
Post by snow on May 20, 2019 22:22:46 GMT -5
JMT but while CSA can be found in any organization, religious groups seem to have the more prevalent tendency to downplay it or hide it for as long as possible. The Catholic Church is a very good example of that, but they all seem to do it to some degree. Because of their religious beliefs and their belief they have the patent on morality, it's not as easy for them to admit that it exists in God's churches just like in the 'world of heathens'. This is usually the fault of the leaders though. The members don't seem to need to hide it as much as the leaders. In fact, the members are often the recipients of the crime and need the transparency and protection the most. Of course the leaders have the most to lose and it's more often them that are committing the crime in the first place. Which of course makes it even worse and more reason to hide. Reputations and protecting their religion is a higher priority because of the nature of the organization and what they preach in the first place. Because of what churches preach and claim, they usually know they are held to a higher standard and when that standard isn't any different from any secular organization (CSA can happen anywhere) it makes the church look like they have failed to prove God does work in their lives and that they are more moral because they have the Holy spirit and God in their lives, unlike the secular world. They make no such claims so when someone is found to be abusing children, they are more likely to report it to the authorities. I imagine secular organizations that deal in childcare might be an exception because they too have a lot more to lose. They are in the business of protecting children after all and it can really slam the their reputation and do damage to their finances. The latest that I read on how the RCC will handle csa cases, they are still advocating taking it to the authorities 'within' the church first. All that says to me is that they feel the need to assess it and do damage control. I agree, Snow, there are significant problems in the way the RCC is handling CSA cases. I'm currently reading "The Rise and Fall of George Pell", an Australian archbishop in the Catholic church who tried to circumvent the CSA redress being developed in the RCC by frog-leaping the developing scheme with his own to fast-track it and force it through on his terms. Distressingly, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, has been spent on lawyers to protect abusers within the church. That money could have been used to compensate victims. George Pell is now serving 6 years himself due to historic sexual abuse charges of which he was found guilty just recently. When perpetrators are very high in the ranks, and trying to control the direction of CSA-redress, it is a recipe for disaster. Thanks also for your comments about reputations and protecting of systems with religious organisations - this is also a huge stumbling block. For me, Jesus was the great healer in curing me of the esoteric beliefs which I was under in the 2x2 system. My faith is no longer in a system, so I don't have to try and protect that system. I understand and respect that others like yourself have been healed in other ways. I liked your comment: In fact, the members are often the recipients of the crime and need the transparency and protection the most.
So true! Those in controlling systems are least likely to report, be threatened if they try to report. Where to from here? Some action is finally happening in some places in regards to 2x2 workers having training for CSA prevention. That was in no small part due to the long term efforts of Wings for Truth, an external organisation with supporters both internal and external raising awareness over time. I applaud their efforts. I think we all need to keep plugging away at keeping this issue alive and affirming it and recommending it, for the sake of both current and former members who are abuse survivors. I understand some try to undermine this because of their own standing in the group and need to still protect their system - that's sad. Others try to undermine it because of their own agenda - that's life. I think we all need to keep moving forward. In many ways we can't heal or change the past, but we can put something into place to try and prevent it from happening and if we can't do that at least have a good system in place to help the survivors of CSA and get the abusers behind bars. That means accepting it does happen. I think one thing that would get workers and priests etc past the stumbling block of reputation, is to realize that the abuser is not the organization. For some reason they seem to think the actions of a few makes the whole at risk or guilty even. What they don't seem to realize is that they look worse and become culpable (when they weren't to begin with) when they try to minimize the damage a 'few' did. The workers look bad because they protect and don't alert the authorities and so do the RCC and any other churches in this situation. But no one blames the ones that have done nothing to start with. We can't control what we don't know is happening. But we sure as heck are culpable if we do nothing after we find out. They need to understand that somehow. I don't know why they wouldn't know that, but it seems that they don't. Another thing that would help is screening before they can become workers or priests. It's not fool proof, and again they can't prevent what they don't know about, but at least they would attempt to make the children as safe as humanly possible. I don't know. It's going to be a long road I think. |
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 20, 2019 22:39:35 GMT -5
Taking the concept of Jesus as the Healer, does not extrapolate out to providing counselling, legal aid, financial assistance etc. It instead implies the more abstract concept of providing power within to help overcome difficulties in conjunction with the aforementioned activities. It help with the healing of the mind, and I point to people like Derek Prince, and Stephen Lungu as evidence.
Therefore I cannot see what is irrational, or dangerous in making the claim, except if it flew in the face of someone who does not want to believe that while God (or whatever label you wish to ascribe to a power that is Universal) is the healer, he isn't the Doctor, the Psychiatrist, the Lawyer, or the Bank. If man does what he can, God will help do what man can't.
Thanks. It is disappointing to see some who claim to support CSA-RS actively working against it in this thread. Belief systems - religious and otherwise - sometimes do funny, illogical things to people. |
|
|
|
Post by Pragmatic on May 20, 2019 22:40:52 GMT -5
Do you believe in the following verses Pragmatic?
Jesus is referred to as the "Wonderful Counsellor" yet you have contradicted that.
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Yes I do believe, but no I haven't contradicted it. Wonderful Counsellor, and other counsellors who specialise in certain fields are not mutually exclusive. I already explained my belief in how this works.
Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
To be content with the things that you have and 'trust that he will never leave or forsake thee' presents as advising against the victims of CSA applying for recompense.
No it doesn't. Remember the one who wrote that, was also the one who feared death by shipwreck, and all they could do was cast out anchors, eat, and wait until dawn. Your interpretation of that would be that they wouldn't have needed to do anything. Putting out the Anchors, eating, and waiting were practical things they had to do. Professional counselling, legal aid, redress are practical things that should be done.
For me, Christianity is a practical way of life.
|
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 20, 2019 23:27:26 GMT -5
I think we all need to keep moving forward. In many ways we can't heal or change the past, but we can put something into place to try and prevent it from happening and if we can't do that at least have a good system in place to help the survivors of CSA and get the abusers behind bars. That means accepting it does happen. I think one thing that would get workers and priests etc past the stumbling block of reputation, is to realize that the abuser is not the organization. For some reason they seem to think the actions of a few makes the whole at risk or guilty even. What they don't seem to realize is that they look worse and become culpable (when they weren't to begin with) when they try to minimize the damage a 'few' did. The workers look bad because they protect and don't alert the authorities and so do the RCC and any other churches in this situation. But no one blames the ones that have done nothing to start with. We can't control what we don't know is happening. But we sure as heck are culpable if we do nothing after we find out. They need to understand that somehow. I don't know why they wouldn't know that, but it seems that they don't. Another thing that would help is screening before they can become workers or priests. It's not fool proof, and again they can't prevent what they don't know about, but at least they would attempt to make the children as safe as humanly possible. I don't know. It's going to be a long road I think. Yes, a long road. It probably won't come about unless there is a claim made against them through legal avenues, unfortunately. But it is possible. Yes, screening! Certainly hasn't been the case so far, with one offender in Aus even starting in the Work AFTER he'd offended and this was known to the establishment. So far the track record on self-regulation has not been good. |
|
|
|
Post by joanna on May 21, 2019 2:30:17 GMT -5
Pragmatic . You have helped to clarify why the 2x2's and all other religious institutions must not believe that "Jesus is the greatest healer" & that this assortment of words is meaningless. The 2x2 church & others must ignore scripture as any promise of relief or assistance is absolutely unreliable: Any supplication for spiritual intervention is a futile exercise as there will be no intercession from any supernatural source. Recourse for the victims of CSA can only be obtained from secular processes via the links previously provided in this thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by elizabethcoleman on May 21, 2019 4:43:34 GMT -5
Advocating recourse for the victims of CSA purely from secular processes overlooks the fact that the 2x2 group is in fact a religious institution. Such an attitude enables and emboldens the 2x2 group to wash their hands of the matter and say - "It can only be dealt with by the secular - nothing to do with us".
This is the line they have taken so far. They feel no responsibility for the victims.
If you are advocating what I recommended in the OP in the first place, in terms of signing up to the government scheme in Australia, then I'm glad you finally agree. I've always advocated the secular processes as recommended by the Royal Commission - but you will note that these cannot be carried out in a vacuum. They have to be done with instigation by the offending group, the religious institution involved.
I would like to note that you have taken "Jesus is the greatest healer" completely out of context. I believe in Jesus, vaccinations, doctors, surgery, panadol and vitamin C. To pretend otherwise is your own black/white fallacy application (look it up).
|
|
|
|
Post by benar on May 23, 2019 19:30:42 GMT -5
I would like to note that you have taken "Jesus is the greatest healer" completely out of context. I believe in Jesus, vaccinations, doctors, surgery, panadol and vitamin C. To pretend otherwise is your own black/white fallacy application (look it up). The vaccinations, doctors, surgery, Panadol and vitamin C are all man-made advances. They do immeasurable good for the world. Given that these advances are possible without the involvement of Jesus, what does Jesus add to 'healing'? Have you ever noticed the advances in health perfectly correlate with man-made advances in science and medicine, as if there is no god at all? Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16 state that whatever one asks for in prayer will be received. I can only assume that victims of CSA have prayed for intervention, so why has no supernatural intervention taken place? A secular CSA redress scheme is desperately needed, given the complete lack of action of the "greatest healer", which is a strong indication for the healer's non-existence. |
|
|
|
Post by magpie1 on May 23, 2019 22:38:12 GMT -5
2x2ministry.org/problems/index.php ..Please folk homework is good for you.. Magpie
|
|
|
|
Post by magpie1 on May 24, 2019 2:22:36 GMT -5
Look up that address that I posted above. OH!!!! They are rumbling amongst them that Satin is attacking via victims/onlookers,any outside questioning of 2x2s was always passed off as Satins attack on them...NO!!! thew other way round Satin is destroying young lives via Criminal Paedophile Workers,turn them away from God early in their little lives. That would be right  Magpie |
|
|
|
Post by joanna on May 24, 2019 3:39:30 GMT -5
benar . It is to be hoped that concerned 2x2 members know how vital it is that the source of assistance and recompense for the victims of child sex abuse is dependent entirely on human-inspired / secular interventions. Here are Fifteen Recommendations from the Royal Commission into Child Sex Abuse you should know aboutAnd here is information about The National Redress Scheme . (earlier posts also contain links about this scheme). The following quote is an absurd and insincere comment from elizabethcoleman given she has had ample opportunity to contextualise what she meant by her statement that "Jesus is the greatest healer" and she has failed to do so. Her inability to explain why Jesus cannot be relied upon to prevent CSA or assist in the recovery simply reinforces the obvious: that the 2x2 and all other churches/religious institutions must do what is right and conform to the Royal Commission's recommendations. The workers and all other church leaders and members need to face up to the fact that praying for help is a useless endeavour.
|
|
|
|
Post by Ross.Bowden on May 24, 2019 7:55:56 GMT -5
I would like to note that you have taken "Jesus is the greatest healer" completely out of context. I believe in Jesus, vaccinations, doctors, surgery, panadol and vitamin C. To pretend otherwise is your own black/white fallacy application (look it up). The vaccinations, doctors, surgery, Panadol and vitamin C are all man-made advances. They do immeasurable good for the world. Given that these advances are possible without the involvement of Jesus, what does Jesus add to 'healing'? Have you ever noticed the advances in health perfectly correlate with man-made advances in science and medicine, as if there is no god at all? Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16 state that whatever one asks for in prayer will be received. I can only assume that victims of CSA have prayed for intervention, so why has no supernatural intervention taken place? A secular CSA redress scheme is desperately needed, given the complete lack of action of the "greatest healer", which is a strong indication for the healer's non-existence. There is no doubt about the great healer’s existence - no doubt about the historicity of Christ. And as you know people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection. Obviously, everyone forms their own view about Jesus and clearly those who believe do not do so on the basis of no evidence - there is plenty. It’s all been discussed a million times. It’s just a bit puzzling why some atheists spend so much time thinking about Jesus and the Bible and why nearly every thread on TMB these days has to end up in an attack on Jesus. I’m sure He is not terribly worried - He hasn’t promised to intervene in a fallen world ahead of His return and Christians look forward to the day that He will make all things new. It must be a turn-off for professing people when TMB is clearly a board predominantly about a church that believes in Jesus. |
|
|
|
Post by benar on May 24, 2019 9:07:21 GMT -5
The vaccinations, doctors, surgery, Panadol and vitamin C are all man-made advances. They do immeasurable good for the world. Given that these advances are possible without the involvement of Jesus, what does Jesus add to 'healing'? Have you ever noticed the advances in health perfectly correlate with man-made advances in science and medicine, as if there is no god at all? Matthew 7:7, Matthew 17:20, Matthew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Matthew 18:19 and James 5:15-16 state that whatever one asks for in prayer will be received. I can only assume that victims of CSA have prayed for intervention, so why has no supernatural intervention taken place? A secular CSA redress scheme is desperately needed, given the complete lack of action of the "greatest healer", which is a strong indication for the healer's non-existence. There is no doubt about the great healer’s existence - no doubt about the historicity of Christ. And as you know people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection. Obviously, everyone forms their own view about Jesus and clearly those who believe do not do so on the basis of no evidence - there is plenty. It’s all been discussed a million times. It’s just a bit puzzling why some atheists spend so much time thinking about Jesus and the Bible and why nearly every thread on TMB these days has to end up in an attack on Jesus. I’m sure He is not terribly worried - He hasn’t promised to intervene in a fallen world ahead of His return and Christians look forward to the day that He will make all things new. It must be a turn-off for professing people when TMB is clearly a board predominantly about a church that believes in Jesus. Ross, if there was no doubt, there would be proof. The person who discovered this proof would have been awarded a Nobel prize, for rendering much of what we know as good science to be worthless. I am quite confident that you have no doubt as to Jesus' existence, but to state your belief as fact is erroneous. Unfortunately it does not matter that "people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection". This is confirmation bias and the argument from popularity, in which an belief's popularity has no bearing on its truthfulness. At one time, the bulk of the population thought that the earth was flat. Obviously it doesn't matter how many people believe the earth is flat, it doesn't make it so. There are standards of evidence, Ross. The 'evidence' provided for the existence of a god (there are thousands to choose from, remember) usually comes back to feelings and personal experience, which are notoriously unreliable. If a Christian 'proves' Yahweh through feelings and personal experience, a Muslim 'proves' Allah through the same and a Hindu 'proves' Vishnu, explain to me how personal experience is a reliable way to determine truth. As for "no doubt about the historicity of Christ", you are deluding yourself if you think that is the case. Once again, I have full confidence that you have no doubt about the historicity of Christ, but to state as fact that there is no doubt is again erroneous. More and more scholars are coming to the conclusion that Christ is a mythical character. I presume you are an atheist when it comes to every god but your own and I'm sure you have no trouble admitting that humans have invented gods in the past. Many of these gods/godmen were based on pre-existing myths. Lets do a quick exercise and invent our own godman right now. We'll give him the following characteristics: Born of a virgin on December 25th. Child teacher at age 12. Begins his ministry at age 30. Heals the sick, raises the dead, walks on water, turns water into wine. Has 12 close followers. Is crucified, killed, dead for three days, before resurrecting and ascending into heaven. Who do you think we've based our godman on? Jesus? Nope... We have not used Jesus as a source for any one of the characteristics we've given our godman. They have all been copied from gods/godmen who predate the time of the NT, just the way I suspect the Jesus character was assembled. Why go to lengths debunking the myth of Christ on TMB? Simple - because as you're more aware than most, real people have been hurt by CSA and the "great healer" is nowhere to be seen. Relying on a fictional character to give any sort of solace here is doing nothing to help. Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life. Teach a man to pray for fish and he'll die of starvation. I apologise for my tone - it's not meant to be personal; I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one. |
|
janj
Senior Member
Posts: 472
|
Post by janj on May 24, 2019 14:05:44 GMT -5
I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one.[/quote]
If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc...
If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to.
I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 18:04:28 GMT -5
I'm disgusted that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy, while not a cent (that I'm aware) has ever gone to one of the complainants to help them put their lives back together. On what basis do you make this allegation that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy? do the attorneys for the workers work pro bono? But of course, there's absolutely no hierarchy right? So really, it's a technicality that they cannot have their bills paid by the hierarchy. Because it doesn't exist. Because they're nothing organization. They're just some random folks who felt the call of the spirit. They don't report to anyone. I've got a timeshare for you. If you're interested. |
|
|
|
Post by Lee on May 24, 2019 18:06:34 GMT -5
Atheists want to blame it on christians. That is silly dumb! Blame it on dumb christians maybe, but then, whose calling the kettle black?
Christ is a healer beyond any atheist. How rude, how self centered of them to proclaim this is all there is to life and condemn persons arguing otherwise. So many people stepped on in saying that....people who've never had lives for health reasons and for victim-of-sin reasons.
This is the tmb. It's owned by atheists. It's purpose is to subject religious dialogue to atheism.
Christians believe Gods going to fold this obsolete world into a new one. Surely he's just begun.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 18:19:36 GMT -5
There once was a worker and rapist,
Who also was quite the escapist.
When it was found out,
The truthers did shout,
"Forgive him! At least he's not Papist!"
|
|
|
|
Post by Lee on May 24, 2019 18:28:17 GMT -5
That is so funny...and so impromptu!
|
|
|
|
Post by joanna on May 24, 2019 19:08:03 GMT -5
Ross.Bowden . elizabethcoleman stated she was cured of an emotion by the great healer Jesus. Referring to Jesus in this manner infers Jesus IS intervening in the world. Do you believe her claim to be untrue? You and other Christians have referred to him as being present and a source of help and peace in times of trouble. Yet victims of CSA are scarred for life- both physically and psychologically so... It is a simple yet vital point which needs to be clarified: If Jesus is the great healer, why has he continually failed to protect children who would inevitably have prayed to him for help when they were being cruelly sexually abused? Your concern for professing people presents as being false given you have accused the 2x2 group/church of heresy and you stated that the workers do not uphold Jesus as Lord and God.
|
|
|
|
Post by Lee on May 24, 2019 19:17:12 GMT -5
Bad people equals no god, eh?
By that logic, good people prove God, eh?
Were sure to win a Nobel prize soon!
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on May 24, 2019 19:37:05 GMT -5
Bad people equals no god, eh? By that logic, good people prove God, eh? Were sure to win a Nobel prize soon!
Good people do good and bad people do bad, but for good people to do bad, you need religion. |
|
|
|
Post by benar on May 24, 2019 19:37:23 GMT -5
If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc... If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to. I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important. It is evident that religious organisations shield abusers from prosecution etc. This seems to be far less prevalent in other (non-religious) organisations. Nothing will completely eradicate CSA, but not shielding abusers would help reduce the number of perpetrators collecting multiple victims. You may notice I did not single out 2x2s or even Christianity here. Don't make a strawman out of my comments. |
|
|
|
Post by benar on May 24, 2019 19:43:30 GMT -5
Atheists want to blame it on christians. That is silly dumb! Blame it on dumb christians maybe, but then, whose calling the kettle black? Strawman argument Assertion without evidence. Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. A belief does not make a fact. |
|
Magpie
