CSA Redress Scheme in the Two-by-Twos (CSA-RS)

[elizabethcoleman]

Let's abbreviate it to CSA-RS for ongoing reference. 

Many institutions, particularly churches, have sought to provide redress for their past negligence and offences in the area of CSA through adopted redress schemes. 

The Catholic Church, for instance, has attempted this (however faulty) through its Towards Healing and similar. 

The Australian Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse had some very useful recommendations for redress. 

The recent letter by Alan Kitto was manifestly inadequate, "All the matters raised in the media had already been dealt with by the legal authorities."

Why aren't these matters of any interest to the spiritual authorities, Alan?  And need I say there are many more matters of similar ilk that have never been legally dealt with? 

As a spiritual authority within the group, workers need to deal repentantly and compassionately with those:
a) abused by workers actively in the ministry at the time of abuse;
b) told to remain quiet and left in situations of abuse by workers to whom abuse was reported;
c) threatened with excommunication if wanting/attempting to report abuse to authorities.

The only reason a CSA-RS should not be enacted, is if
1) the Two-by-Twos as a whole believe that A,B & C as listed above are not morally wrong; or
2) the current leaders are so culpable in any or all of the above points that they are only interested in protecting themselves. 

In biblical terms, redress is biblical under the principle of repentance. At the very least a personal response is needed to victims of abuse. 

The Commission recommends:
At a minimum, all institutions should offer and provide on request by a survivor:

- an apology from the institution

- the opportunity to meet with a senior institutional representative and receive an acknowledgement of the abuse and its impact on them

- an assurance or undertaking from the institution that it has taken, or will take, steps to protect against further abuse of children in that institution.

- In offering direct personal responses, institutions should try to be responsive to survivor's needs.


Please see below the Royal Commissions recommendations on redress. Please start asking your elders/workers why a CSA-RS has not yet been enacted.

Redress elements and principles

Appropriate redress for survivors should include the elements of:

    a. direct personal response

    b. counselling and psychological care

    c. monetary payments.


Funders or providers of existing support services should maintain their current resourcing for existing support services, without reducing or diverting resources in response to the Royal Commission’s recommendations on redress and civil litigation.


Any institution or redress scheme that offers or provides any element of redress should do so in accordance with the following principles:

    a. Redress should be survivor focused.

    b. There should be a ‘no wrong door’ approach for survivors in gaining access to redress.

    c. All redress should be offered, assessed and provided with appropriate regard to what is known about the nature and impact of child sexual abuse – and institutional child sexual abuse in particular – and to the cultural needs of survivors.

    d. All redress should be offered, assessed and provided with appropriate regard to the needs of particularly vulnerable survivors.



Further detail is available at: www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/redress-and-civil-litigation

[elizabethcoleman]

May I add:

The Federal Government is also inviting all churches/institutions to be part of a federal redress scheme. 

The following information has been sent to my own denomination:


The National Redress Scheme (NRS) has been set up to allow people to apply for Counselling, Compensation and a Direct Personal Response (DPR) if requested. This scheme involves Church Denominations registering with the NRS as institutions who agree to provide for victims of abuse. There are a number of options available to join the scheme and churches can register on their own, however there are some significant administrative, financial and legal matters to consider.



[Churches are] being approached by the Federal government to join the NRS.  All churches will need approve an “Agreement to Participate” form and also approve the use of  central funds for Compensation payments in instances where an individual church themselves are unable to fund a claim, or in a case where the church is defunct.  


We have until early 2020 to join the scheme.

I would urge head workers to delegate someone to look into this, and consider joining. 

[joanna]

This April 2019 Report Getting the National Redress right An overdue step towards justice is of interest as it suggests some improvements to the empowering of CSA victims.

It is important to note that the processes applied to expose CSA within churches and other institutions has relied entirely on human intervention.

The Problem of Evil addresses the philosophical questions as to why evil and suffering, (and the sexual abuse of children is evil and results in suffering), exists if the Christian god is all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing.

This is a relevant consideration as the faithful are encouraged to put their trust in this god and to pray for protection for both themselves and their children.
That CSA is rife within religious organisations is absolute proof that this god does not care about the children; instead human ethics is the only recourse for this cruel abuse.

The 2x2 preachers across the globe must unite with all other church leaders and accept that their god cannot be relied upon to provide "redress" - the definition of which is "to remedy, to set right"
and that the preachers et al must conform to human ethical standards so that CSA is immediately reported; processes are instituted to prevent it and the victims are provided with every support they need and deserve.

[thelight]

I saw this article in the news earlier in the week - occuring in Queensland, Australia. I found it very interesting & it is almost setting a precedent for other CSA victims to seek compensation?

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/14/queensland-man-ordered-to-pay-1m-in-damages-to-daughter-he-raped-and-assaulted

[elizabethcoleman]

May 15, 2019 22:10:29 GMT -5 thelight said:

I saw this article in the news earlier in the week - occuring in Queensland, Australia. I found it very interesting & it is almost setting a precedent for other CSA victims to seek compensation?

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/14/queensland-man-ordered-to-pay-1m-in-damages-to-daughter-he-raped-and-assaulted

    Interesting. Compensation has long occurred for some cases of CSA, but I've never seen one that high, especially for assault by an immediate family member.  

    As for seeking a precedent for other victims, I don't know. They never go to court for money - they want some semblance of justice, to prevent it happening again by the same perpetrator, to encourage others to come forward, or even just an acknowledgement that it happened, and the harm it caused them. 

But they do need compensation. Most have their lives severely interrupted and traumatised, affecting their education and future prospects. Many need ongoing counselling. Not to mention legal bills. Reparation is needed. 

I'm disgusted that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy, while not a cent (that I'm aware) has ever gone to one of the complainants to help them put their lives back together.

[thelight]

May 15, 2019 22:30:42 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

May 15, 2019 22:10:29 GMT -5 thelight said:

I saw this article in the news earlier in the week - occuring in Queensland, Australia. I found it very interesting & it is almost setting a precedent for other CSA victims to seek compensation?

www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/14/queensland-man-ordered-to-pay-1m-in-damages-to-daughter-he-raped-and-assaulted

    Interesting. Compensation has long occurred for some cases of CSA, but I've never seen one that high, especially for assault by an immediate family member.  

That's what I found so interesting too. It is a LOT of money. But the victim is definitely deserving of it. And I completely agree with your comment that victims need compensation. 

[elizabethcoleman]

May 16, 2019 3:15:25 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

May 15, 2019 22:30:42 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

    

I'm disgusted that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy, while not a cent (that I'm aware) has ever gone to one of the complainants to help them put their lives back together.

On what basis do you make this allegation that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy?

I'm well informed. Unless you wish to officially deny it on behalf of the ministry in Australia? 

I note you have nothing constructive to say about the redress scheme?

[elizabethcoleman]

May 16, 2019 6:32:47 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

May 16, 2019 6:08:36 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

I'm well informed. Unless you wish to officially deny it on behalf of the ministry in Australia? 

I note you have nothing constructive to say about the redress scheme?

Thank you.
You have confirmed what I immediately suspected on reading your post. That you have NO basis whatever for making this allegation.

So I believe you're travelling around the world at the moment. How much is that costing? Who is footing the bill? Where else could that money be usefully spent instead?

[elizabethcoleman]

May 16, 2019 7:53:03 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

May 16, 2019 6:36:12 GMT -5 mr42 said:

Rhetorical question? In the states, unless it is a free public defense attorney a private attorney must be hired. (Or represent yourself.) JF had private attorney(s). Where did his $ come from? His own pocket or the System?

You are in error on two counts
a)It is NOT a rhetorical question I asked.
 Coleman made an allegation ; that worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy.
I asked her the basis for making this allegation.
Her answer makes it clear she has no basis for this allegation other than what she has heard on her gossip/hearsay grapevine.
b)Your quoting JF is a red herring/irrelevant and perhaps even a clever attempt to seek to take attention away from the baseless statement made.
JF was NOT even a perpetrator! It has NO relevance to what took place in the justice and legal system of a Commonwealth country.

Don't be ridiculous. JF committed a crime as a member of the clergy of the Two-by-Twos, it is of no relevance whether or not it was a Commonwealth country - that's your own red herring.

[daft]

May 16, 2019 9:56:09 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Elizabeth your last two posts do not negate and have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated allegation you have made that:
"worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy".
If you have any integrity you would withdraw the unsubstantiated allegation.

Wait a minute here ... 

In what scenario does "the hierarchy" not pay for legal representation?  

[Dennis J]

Facing a future of poverty and insufficient funds to even see my beloved wife as I lay here day after day, I wouldn’t care how they addressed others needs, if they only acknowledged how many of others they have turned their back on over the years. 

To many like myself it is a joke! Spent the last hour and a half with blood running/draining down my face! Open incision of 1 cm on a huge swollen painful fore lip. Review, or whatever name you call yourself now, your turn is coming. And THAT, sir, is no joke! When you, sir, have paid over a million and a half dollars for medical care resulting from unpaid 2&2 preacher expenses, then maybe, just maybe what you express will become of value to many like myself. ‘Spose?

[sharingtheriches]

Perhaps explaining why “hierarchy” is so repugnant, please? Alabamagal.

[nathan]

May 16, 2019 8:11:38 GMT -5 elizabethcoleman said:

May 16, 2019 6:32:47 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Thank you.
You have confirmed what I immediately suspected on reading your post. That you have NO basis whatever for making this allegation.

So I believe you're travelling around the world at the moment. How much is that costing? Who is footing the bill? Where else could that money be usefully spent instead?

** What a bunch of baloney! How do think jesus, the apostles, Paul and many of fellow workers travel? Where did they get they money? It came from mostly their own followers.

Jesus told his apostles to GO! to all nations and NOT to stay put one place too long. Jesus and the apostles and Paul often traveled to different places to visit and strengthen their FAITH in Christ and God.

God said they that preached the gospel lived or receive help through the gospel or their converts/believers.

[snow]

May 16, 2019 9:56:09 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Elizabeth your last two posts do not negate and have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated allegation you have made that:
"worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy".
If you have any integrity you would withdraw the unsubstantiated allegation.

Okay, who paid them then. Several have had private representation and that always costs money. Who paid the lawyers since you seem to know all about it?

[nswelshman]

May 16, 2019 10:54:59 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Elizabeth your last two posts do not negate and have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated allegation you have made that:
"worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy".
If you have any integrity you would withdraw the unsubstantiated allegation.

In Australia several times legal representation was paid for by "by the hierarchy". If you think that statement is wrong I suggest you speak to ex head worker David Leitch. Maybe it was his own money he was spending.

[Dan]

May 16, 2019 10:54:59 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Elizabeth your last two posts do not negate and have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated allegation you have made that:
"worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy".
If you have any integrity you would withdraw the unsubstantiated allegation.

It would seem like a logical conclusion since Workers essentially surrender everything, have no paying jobs, and are monetarily reliant on others (friends). Unless a Worker has family that voluntarily finances their legal expenses or they're appointed a free attorney by the court, one would presume lawyer's, court cost, and fines would be paid from donations. 

[nathan]

May 16, 2019 13:22:43 GMT -5 snow said:

May 16, 2019 9:56:09 GMT -5 alabamagal said:

Elizabeth your last two posts do not negate and have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated allegation you have made that:
"worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy".
If you have any integrity you would withdraw the unsubstantiated allegation.

Okay, who paid them then. Several have had private representation and that always costs money. Who paid the lawyers since you seem to know all about it?

** The friends trust fund for the ministry to use.

[snow]

May 16, 2019 14:10:09 GMT -5 nathan said:

May 16, 2019 13:22:43 GMT -5 snow said:

Okay, who paid them then. Several have had private representation and that always costs money. Who paid the lawyers since you seem to know all about it?

** The friends trust fund for the ministry to use.

Okay, that's what Elizabeth said isn't it? That the money from the friends was used on lawyer fees? Why does alabamagal think that's inaccurate? Where else would it come from? And, since it's money the friends gave the workers, why shouldn't it be used to be given to those who have been sexually abused by a worker in the church? Especially if that worker was moved to another state? Shouldn't the workers take any responsibility for those in their ministry that sexually abuse it's members? It seems like the right thing to do and we see other churches taking responsibility and compensating those who were abused. Not all, because it seems like they will try their best to not have to compensate if they can get out of it.

[nathan]

May 16, 2019 14:17:51 GMT -5 snow said:

May 16, 2019 14:10:09 GMT -5 nathan said:

** The friends trust fund for the ministry to use.

Okay, that's what Elizabeth said isn't it? That the money from the friends was used on lawyer fees? Why does alabamagal think that's inaccurate? Where else would it come from? And, since it's money the friends gave the workers, why shouldn't it be used to be given to those who have been sexually abused by a worker in the church? Especially if that worker was moved to another state? Shouldn't the workers take any responsibility for those in their ministry that sexually abuse it's members? It seems like the right thing to do and we see other churches taking responsibility and compensating those who were abused. Not all, because it seems like they will try their best to not have to compensate if they can get out of it.

** I agree, the overseers must discuss these things with all of the workers on his staff.

The overseers must help to pay for the victims therapy.

[janj]

May 16, 2019 14:17:51 GMT -5 snow said:

May 16, 2019 14:10:09 GMT -5 nathan said:

** The friends trust fund for the ministry to use.

Okay, that's what Elizabeth said isn't it? That the money from the friends was used on lawyer fees? Why does alabamagal think that's inaccurate? Where else would it come from? And, since it's money the friends gave the workers, why shouldn't it be used to be given to those who have been sexually abused by a worker in the church? Especially if that worker was moved to another state? Shouldn't the workers take any responsibility for those in their ministry that sexually abuse it's members? It seems like the right thing to do and we see other churches taking responsibility and compensating those who were abused. Not all, because it seems like they will try their best to not have to compensate if they can get out of it.

I have no idea what happened in this case but I do know sometimes members will come along and say 'I wish to pay for that'. The money might not necessarily come from the general pool but someone might choose to personally pay for a particular expense.

[snow]

May 16, 2019 14:41:49 GMT -5 nathan said:

May 16, 2019 14:17:51 GMT -5 snow said:

Okay, that's what Elizabeth said isn't it? That the money from the friends was used on lawyer fees? Why does alabamagal think that's inaccurate? Where else would it come from? And, since it's money the friends gave the workers, why shouldn't it be used to be given to those who have been sexually abused by a worker in the church? Especially if that worker was moved to another state? Shouldn't the workers take any responsibility for those in their ministry that sexually abuse it's members? It seems like the right thing to do and we see other churches taking responsibility and compensating those who were abused. Not all, because it seems like they will try their best to not have to compensate if they can get out of it.

** I agree, the overseers must discuss these things with all of the workers on his staff.

The overseers must help to pay for the victims therapy.

Yes, that would help so much if they would pay for counselling right away. The sooner it's addressed the sooner any healing can start.

[snow]

May 16, 2019 14:53:30 GMT -5 janj said:

May 16, 2019 14:17:51 GMT -5 snow said:

Okay, that's what Elizabeth said isn't it? That the money from the friends was used on lawyer fees? Why does alabamagal think that's inaccurate? Where else would it come from? And, since it's money the friends gave the workers, why shouldn't it be used to be given to those who have been sexually abused by a worker in the church? Especially if that worker was moved to another state? Shouldn't the workers take any responsibility for those in their ministry that sexually abuse it's members? It seems like the right thing to do and we see other churches taking responsibility and compensating those who were abused. Not all, because it seems like they will try their best to not have to compensate if they can get out of it.

I have no idea what happened in this case but I do know sometimes members will come along and say 'I wish to pay for that'. The money might not necessarily come from the general pool but someone might choose to personally pay for a particular expense.

Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances.

[speak]

May 16, 2019 14:53:30 GMT -5 janj said:

May 16, 2019 14:17:51 GMT -5 snow said:

Okay, that's what Elizabeth said isn't it? That the money from the friends was used on lawyer fees? Why does alabamagal think that's inaccurate? Where else would it come from? And, since it's money the friends gave the workers, why shouldn't it be used to be given to those who have been sexually abused by a worker in the church? Especially if that worker was moved to another state? Shouldn't the workers take any responsibility for those in their ministry that sexually abuse it's members? It seems like the right thing to do and we see other churches taking responsibility and compensating those who were abused. Not all, because it seems like they will try their best to not have to compensate if they can get out of it.

I have no idea what happened in this case but I do know sometimes members will come along and say 'I wish to pay for that'. The money might not necessarily come from the general pool but someone might choose to personally pay for a particular expense.

And that is true, sometimes family pay for expenses such as clothing and travel.

 

[janj]

May 16, 2019 15:14:32 GMT -5 snow said:

May 16, 2019 14:53:30 GMT -5 janj said:

I have no idea what happened in this case but I do know sometimes members will come along and say 'I wish to pay for that'. The money might not necessarily come from the general pool but someone might choose to personally pay for a particular expense.

Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances.

Yes well that's another whole topic but I was commenting on the statement that JF's lawyer must have been paid for out of the general pool. I said not necessarily-it could have been paid for by a particular person who chose to do that.

[sharingtheriches]

There are some multimillionaire friends who often shoulder extra expenses for the workers.

When a female relative worker needed an emergency appendectomy, our family got the money together to pay the hospital and dr. Bills. It was offered to the overseer for that reason, he said no thanks but that the bill had already been paid. At that time there were a few rich friends close to the area.

[sharingtheriches]

May 16, 2019 15:46:43 GMT -5 janj said:

May 16, 2019 15:14:32 GMT -5 snow said:

Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances.

Yes well that's another whole topic but I was commenting on the statement that JF's lawyer must have been paid for out of the general pool. I said not necessarily-it could have been paid for by a particular person who chose to do that.

Also friends who pay the extra charges for the workers don’t ask for particulars, so they wouldn’t likely known of any victims from said legal issue.

The best thing would be for the friends to have a fund for the survivors of CSA or rape or even family abuse. That way it could be handled discreetly and not put the poor victims on public display.

[nathan]

May 16, 2019 15:14:32 GMT -5 snow said:

May 16, 2019 14:53:30 GMT -5 janj said:

I have no idea what happened in this case but I do know sometimes members will come along and say 'I wish to pay for that'. The money might not necessarily come from the general pool but someone might choose to personally pay for a particular expense.

Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances.

** I elect you as the first female overseer worker! Haha...

[sharingtheriches]

May 16, 2019 16:26:23 GMT -5 nathan said:

May 16, 2019 15:14:32 GMT -5 snow said:

Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances.

** I elect you as the first female overseer worker! Haha...

I think the funds for counseling should be a given. However, as Medicaid has discovered, it’s better to have the deliverer of said counseling bill the fund instead of giving it to the abuse victim. Often extra cash is too big a temptation for such folks under such emotional and psychological damages. They might spend it on something else before they get the help they really need. Or make a trust fund that only shells out when certain conditions are met.