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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2019 17:54:44 GMT -5
So I believe you're travelling around the world at the moment. How much is that costing? Who is footing the bill? Where else could that money be usefully spent instead? ** What a bunch of baloney! How do think jesus, the apostles, Paul and many of fellow workers travel? Where did they get they money? It came from mostly their own followers. Jesus told his apostles to GO! to all nations and NOT to stay put one place too long. Jesus and the apostles and Paul often traveled to different places to visit and strengthen their FAITH in Christ and God. God said they that preached the gospel lived or receive help through the gospel or their converts/believers. Yes, this comes to the heart of the Two-by-two belief system, doesn't it? Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses - aren't the workers going by faith? Not taking money? Isn't this what they consistently claim, that they don't take offerings like those worldly churches? Of course they do. They have a big stockpile available for all that overseas travel, don't they? You've admitted as much, and we all know it. They have just as much if not more than those worldly churches. How then, in fact, are they different? How, exactly, are they going "by faith"? I don't care that they take donations and spend it on travel, etc. I care that they claim NOT to take offerings. I care that they claim to GO BY FAITH, but in reality that is an empty statement - they have the backing of big, fat bank balances. This is also the heart of accountability, isn't it? There is none. They hide, obscure, deflect, all the while condemning other churches for NOT going by faith and for taking offerings. How MUCH is spent on all that constant travelling? How MUCH is spent on legal representation? How MUCH is spent on all that hall hiring? and then consider... How MUCH is spent on supporting CSA victims? In all of your posturing, Review, do you not think a redress scheme is in order? |
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Post by openingact34 on May 16, 2019 18:06:06 GMT -5
** What a bunch of baloney! How do think jesus, the apostles, Paul and many of fellow workers travel? Where did they get they money? It came from mostly their own followers. Jesus told his apostles to GO! to all nations and NOT to stay put one place too long. Jesus and the apostles and Paul often traveled to different places to visit and strengthen their FAITH in Christ and God. God said they that preached the gospel lived or receive help through the gospel or their converts/believers. Yes, this comes to the heart of the Two-by-two belief system, doesn't it? Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses - aren't the workers going by faith? Not taking money? Isn't this what they consistently claim, that they don't take offerings like those worldly churches? Of course they do. They have a big stockpile available for all that overseas travel, don't they? You've admitted as much, and we all know it. They have just as much if not more than those worldly churches. How then, in fact, are they different? How, exactly, are they going "by faith"? I don't care that they take donations and spend it on travel, etc. I care that they claim NOT to take offerings. I care that they claim to GO BY FAITH, but in reality that is an empty statement - they have the backing of big, fat bank balances. This is also the heart of accountability, isn't it? There is none. They hide, obscure, deflect, all the while condemning other churches for NOT going by faith and for taking offerings. How MUCH is spent on all that constant travelling? How MUCH is spent on legal representation? How MUCH is spent on all that hall hiring? and then consider... How MUCH is spent on supporting CSA victims? In all of your posturing, Review, do you not think a redress scheme is in order? The 2x2's have a very serious redress scheme. It usually goes something like: "You are not allowed to wait on the workers' table wearing those wicked, worldly clothes! Go redress right now and cover up your ankles and elbows." |
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Post by Lee on May 16, 2019 19:50:42 GMT -5
As usual, pity isn't helpful here, or even the right response. A functional protocol and supportive culture reporting CSA would be.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2019 19:58:31 GMT -5
Elizabeth, you have responded as I thought you likely would when confronted with the unsubstantiated allegation you made. All the while in a 'holier than thou' manner, you write a book, make hundreds of posts criticising the 'awful 2x2s'.... As I expected, you have no compassion on the needs of those who have fallen victim to your ministry, and nothing useful to offer here. Where does the 'awful 2x2s' quote come from? I have not made that statement. Please substantiate this allegation. I suspect you have no idea how much money your ministry has, or what those funds have been used for. |
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Post by joanna on May 16, 2019 20:17:06 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman As usual, all is not what it seems and we need to follow the $$$ This article The legal loopholes churches exploit to avoid compensating sexual abuse victims is interesting given it explains there is a fiscal advantage for churches to join the redress scheme "Churches are hiding behind the law to avoid paying compensation to sexual abuse victims – and government inaction allows it. ...
Churches and charities are flocking to get into the national scheme because they know their liability will be reduced compared with their potential civil liability. While the scheme is a welcome addition to the suite of options available for victims, it is not the only option and will not be the best option in many cases".Churches are financial institutions, they are run like businesses yet avoid paying taxes due to their "charitable status". The combined churches of Australia make over $30 billion each year Read more Church Tax Exemption StatusYour own church would benefit from joining the Redress scheme Elizabeth as the payouts for the victims of CSA are then capped at a maximum of $150,000.00. The fact that churches avoid paying tax is an indictment on their ethical standards and very reason for existing. Churches are big business - they earn a combined > $30 billion of Australian $$ Tax-free. How could an honest person align themselves with this? The fiscal transparency of churches is unreliable. They hide behind their charitable status and use scripture to divert the gullible from focusing on their profits. Churches appoint members with financial acumen to manages their finances. The 2x2 group is just as guilty of obscuring their financial status. How much are they worth? How would they manage compensation payouts to the victims of CSA? Their financial system seemed ad hoc compared to other churches and they did not appear to be as focused on the $$ from my experiences, and also from looking at multiple church websites and noting their emphasis on money, and those who have been appointed as financial managers / officers within their churches (including some individuals who contribute to this forum). These church websites have a streamlined process so people can click and give to increase the church coffers. How does the 'not so subtle' $50.00? note passed from 2x2 member to worker compare to the finely-tuned, blatant requests to donate on line by direct debit or alternative instructions on handing over your $$ via "Giving Envelopes" on Sundays? Does the 2x2 grp invest?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2019 20:38:38 GMT -5
elizabethcoleman As usual, all is not what it seems and we need to follow the $$$ This article The legal loopholes churches exploit to avoid compensating sexual abuse victims is interesting given it explains there is a fiscal advantage for churches to join the redress scheme "Churches are hiding behind the law to avoid paying compensation to sexual abuse victims – and government inaction allows it. ...
Churches and charities are flocking to get into the national scheme because they know their liability will be reduced compared with their potential civil liability. While the scheme is a welcome addition to the suite of options available for victims, it is not the only option and will not be the best option in many cases".Churches are financial institutions, they are run like businesses yet avoid paying taxes due to their "charitable status". The combined churches of Australia make over $30 billion each year Read more Church Tax Exemption StatusYour own church would benefit from joining the Redress scheme Elizabeth as the payouts for the victims of CSA are then capped at a maximum of $150,000.00. My own church will not benefit. We have so few (if any victims) that we would likely be footing the bill for other churches who have not faired so well. It probably is not in our best interests to join, financially. But we want to make sure there is the option for them if there are victims/if they do want this option - that is the current proposal.
You are correct, for the victims it may not be the best option as a capped payment. But the government scheme is a way of seeking redress without the victims going through a lengthy court process, from what I understand. Less traumatic for them. I don't make the rules on capping. I think it is inadequate.The fact that churches avoid paying tax is an indictment on their ethical standards and very reason for existing. Churches are big business - they earn a combined > $30 billion of Australian $$ Tax-free. How could an honest person align themselves with this? The fiscal transparency of churches is unreliable. They hide behind their charitable status and use scripture to divert the gullible from focusing on their profits. Churches appoint members with financial acumen to manages their finances. The 2x2 group is just as guilty of obscuring their financial status. How much are they worth? Tens of millions. At least.How would they manage compensation payouts to the victims of CSA? That's surely the question for them?Their financial system seemed ad hoc compared to other churches and they did not appear to be as focused on the $$ from my experiences, and also from looking at multiple church websites and noting their emphasis on money, and those who have been appointed as financial managers / officers within their churches (including some individuals who contribute to this forum). These church websites have a streamlined process so people can click and give to increase the church coffers. How does the 'not so subtle' $50.00? note passed from 2x2 member to worker compare to the finely-tuned, blatant requests to donate on line by direct debit or alternative instructions on handing over your $$ via "Giving Envelopes" on Sundays? Boy you've drunk the Kook-aid here. Churches have visible offerings that are accounted down to the cent, reported on in financial statements, statements given to members. Churches operate under the rules of associated incorporations.
The 2x2s have NONE of this. Much is given by estate wills. Stashed in secret bank accounts in the names of members to remain hidden. Accountability never given to members on income or expenditure. Then they have the gall to say they don't take offerings. And you're concerned about ordinary churches taking offerings on which they report?
Does the 2x2 grp invest? Again - a question for them. |
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2019 21:27:38 GMT -5
Alabamagal, I am just curious.
Are you a worker from N.Z. and do you do your missionary work in another country at present?
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2019 22:42:17 GMT -5
Alabamagal, I am just curious. Are you a worker from N.Z. and do you do your missionary work in another country at present? I note you post under an alias; as an anonymous poster. You have every right to do so. I find it hypocritical that you then proceed to probe another poster's identity! Of course such hypocrisy is not uncommon on this forum. Perhaps you would benefit by seeking the counsel of the administrator of this forum about such posting? I find it curious and revealing that you post this 'red herring' on a thread. While Elizabeth; who so righteously calls out the 2x2s on all their lacks and failures, is being confronted about the unsubstantiated allegation she has made. Is this your attempt to distract from the matter presently being discussed?The matter presently being discussed on this thread is CSA-RS. It is most obvious you want to do all in your power to distract from that. |
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Post by nathan on May 16, 2019 23:08:44 GMT -5
** What a bunch of baloney! How do think jesus, the apostles, Paul and many of fellow workers travel? Where did they get they money? It came from mostly their own followers. Jesus told his apostles to GO! to all nations and NOT to stay put one place too long. Jesus and the apostles and Paul often traveled to different places to visit and strengthen their FAITH in Christ and God. God said they that preached the gospel lived or receive help through the gospel or their converts/believers. Yes, this comes to the heart of the Two-by-two belief system, doesn't it? Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses - aren't the workers going by faith? Not taking money? Isn't this what they consistently claim, that they don't take offerings like those worldly churches? ~~ The workers do NOT ask the friends 10% of their income= Tithing. Everything done by FREEWILL offerings. Give what they can.Of course they do. They have a big stockpile available for all that overseas travel, don't they? You've admitted as much, and we all know it. They have just as much if not more than those worldly churches. How then, in fact, are they different? How, exactly, are they going "by faith"?
Judas Is. was the treasurer holding the money bag for Jesus and the whole group= TRUST fund. In the book of Acts we read the believers sold their possessions, property and laid the MONEY at the apostles feet. How is that going by Faith?I don't care that they take donations and spend it on travel, etc. I care that they claim NOT to take offerings. The Workers take FREEWILL offerings! Where do you think Jesus and the apostles got the money bag from? FREEWILL offerings from the strangers, and their own followers.
I care that they claim to GO BY FAITH, but in reality that is an empty statement - they have the backing of big, fat bank balances. EVERY worker must leave all of their possession behind to START in the ministry.... When they leave the ministry they have hardly anything to start again in life that is go by FAITH!
This is also the heart of accountability, isn't it? There is none. They hide, obscure, deflect, all the while condemning other churches for NOT going by faith and for taking offerings. How MUCH is spent on all that constant travelling? How MUCH is spent on legal representation? How MUCH is spent on all that hall hiring? ~~ How are the workers going to OBEY Jesus commands and teaching " Go, and preach to ALL nations! until he comes again." Do you expect them to walk on WATER? and flying through the air? and Walking on foot from one country to the next? Are you out of your freaking mind.
It takes MONEY! to do these things and the Friends are the ones who supply the money so the workers can go and preach the gospel to ALL nations as Jesus had commanded his apostles before he went back to the Father in heaven.
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 16, 2019 23:47:19 GMT -5
Yes, this comes to the heart of the Two-by-two belief system, doesn't it? Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses - aren't the workers going by faith? Not taking money? Isn't this what they consistently claim, that they don't take offerings like those worldly churches? ~~ The workers do NOT ask the friends 10% of their income= Tithing. Everything done by FREEWILL offerings. Give what they can.Of course they do. They have a big stockpile available for all that overseas travel, don't they? You've admitted as much, and we all know it. They have just as much if not more than those worldly churches. How then, in fact, are they different? How, exactly, are they going "by faith"?
Judas Is. was the treasurer holding the money bag for Jesus and the whole group= TRUST fund. In the book of Acts we read the believers sold their possessions, property and laid the MONEY at the apostles feet. How is that going by Faith?I don't care that they take donations and spend it on travel, etc. I care that they claim NOT to take offerings. The Workers take FREEWILL offerings! Where do you think Jesus and the apostles got the money bag from? FREEWILL offerings from the strangers, and their own followers.
I care that they claim to GO BY FAITH, but in reality that is an empty statement - they have the backing of big, fat bank balances. EVERY worker must leave all of their possession behind to START in the ministry.... When they leave the ministry they have hardly anything to start again in life that is go by FAITH!
This is also the heart of accountability, isn't it? There is none. They hide, obscure, deflect, all the while condemning other churches for NOT going by faith and for taking offerings. How MUCH is spent on all that constant travelling? How MUCH is spent on legal representation? How MUCH is spent on all that hall hiring? ~~ How are the workers going to OBEY Jesus commands and teaching " Go, and preach to ALL nations! until he comes again." Do you expect them to walk on WATER? and flying through the air? and Walking on foot from one country to the next? Are you out of your freaking mind.
It takes MONEY! to do these things and the Friends are the ones who supply the money so the workers can go and preach the gospel to ALL nations as Jesus had commanded his apostles before he went back to the Father in heaven.
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? |
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Post by thelight on May 17, 2019 0:08:24 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more with Elizabeths posts. Doesn't it make sense to keep a track of what money is being "donated" & what money is being spent (& fully accountability on exactly what every last $ is being spent on?!). While the handling of CSA is being looked at, maybe other areas should be gone over with a fine tooth comb too - like implementing a financial recording/reporting system. CSA may not be the only abuse occuring - there may be abuse of funds as well.
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Post by nathan on May 17, 2019 0:31:24 GMT -5
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Your church take a collection every week or service don't they? Well, the friends give the ministry the money and they DON'T want to know how or where the money be spent because they KNOW it's for the furtherance of the gospel and NOT for themselves to spend/buy new cars to drive, a new vacation home in Hawaii. The friends trust the ministry to use and spend the money wisely! NO need accountability.
Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Jesus and his apostles in the book of Acts travel A LOT! Read about Paul's 3 missions to MANY countries in a short period of time. Like I told you Jesus said, Go! he didn't say to STAY one place for too long. Most preachers have their own homes and they stay in that town/location for a long time to raise their families.
Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. If you were to read in the book of Acts Paul and his co-workers spent a lot of time going from place to place strengthen their converts, appoint church elders, preaching the gospel in various places. When I was in the work my companions and I had Bible studies at the high school, colleges, with anyone who wants to know about Jesus Christ. We went door to door to pass out 1000s invitations every Saturday and the friends came and helped us also.
But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. Oh my goodness! You EXES are too much... For years, the exes were complaining that the workers do NOT care about people, they don't come the board to answer theirs questions... Some workers came to TMB in the past, and you exes chased them out of here with hostility... and here Review/worker come, post and answering questions, then NOW! you say he should NOT spend his time posting on TMB, but preaching the gospel. You EXES are too much! DAMN if you do's and DAMN if you don't kind of people/COMPLAINERS!The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? The point is you exes don't KNOW what you are saying sometimes! You complaint too MUCH. Yes, I agree the ministry should set aside money to help paying therapy for the victims of CSA caused by those in the 2x2 ministry.
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Post by magpie1 on May 17, 2019 2:14:36 GMT -5
Nathan, Goodness me,What on earth are you quoting?? Half a verse or statement to cover the Irvine sects doctrine?? Yes you are laughed at,but not as bad as 2x2s scoffing at us,and years ago turning up to a well catered 21st birthday party just two suburbs away and hear the "AUDABLE"voice say "who invited him"? My supposed Brothers ans sisters in Christ. Now your misquotong out of context. You know of course 2x2 is from the Middle East Tradition,Law,Cultural and Religion. One person or a Woman's complaint was of no value unless backed up by a second witness--WITNESS of TWO,in Western Culture no such demand is necessary,is it?. OK- LUKE 22 V,35/36,,Then"JESUS" yes "JESUS" asked "HIS" Disciples;When I sent you out that time,without purse ,bag or shoes,did you lack anything?"Not a thing" they answered. But now "JESUS"yes "JESUS"again,said"Whosoever has a purse or a bag must take it;and whosoever has "NO SWORD"must sell his coat and buy one. Pretty clear you have never read these verses or let them sink in as with the following.' 1 Corinthians 9,V,5-6,PAUL asked!!! Haven't I the right to follow the examples of the other Apostles and the Lord's(Jesus) Brothers and Peter by taking a "CHRISTIAN WIFE" with me on my travels?? Or are Barnabas and I (just the 2) the only ones who have to "work"for a living. (Two out of how many? Demanded celibacy "WHY?" How many times have I and others quoted these verses to you?  Ephesians 4,V,11-12,It was "HE"(J.E.S.U.S.= JESUS) who gave the gifts to mankind;"HE" appointed some to be Apostles,others to be Prophets,others to be Evangelists others to be evangelists and teachers. "HE"(JESUS"did this to prepare all God's People for the work of christian service in order to build up the Body of Christ (Church). Why do 2x2s avoid these very important verses Nathan??? Tell us "WHY" Magpie |
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Post by magpie1 on May 17, 2019 2:23:38 GMT -5
PS, I repeated Evangelist,but I left out an important part of any Christian Ministry,"PASTOR",The ones who aqre there to help CSA and abused victims
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Post by Roselyn T on May 17, 2019 2:45:36 GMT -5
Elizabeth your last two posts do not negate and have nothing to do with the unsubstantiated allegation you have made that: "worker perpetrators have had their legal bills paid by the hierarchy". If you have any integrity you would withdraw the unsubstantiated allegation. In Australia several times legal representation was paid for by "by the hierarchy". If you think that statement is wrong I suggest you speak to ex head worker David Leitch. Maybe it was his own money he was spending. I was thinking the same thing nswelshman ! I notice alabamagal/ review didn't respond to your post ! |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2019 4:20:16 GMT -5
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Your church take a collection every week or service don't they? Well, the friends give the ministry the money and they DON'T want to know how or where the money be spent because they KNOW it's for the furtherance of the gospel and NOT for themselves to spend/buy new cars to drive, a new vacation home in Hawaii. The friends trust the ministry to use and spend the money wisely! NO need accountability.
Is that the same kind of trust that they were above committing adultery and pedophilia? Sorry Nathan, but you are naive and should know better by now.
Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Jesus and his apostles in the book of Acts travel A LOT! Read about Paul's 3 missions to MANY countries in a short period of time. Like I told you Jesus said, Go! he didn't say to STAY one place for too long. Most preachers have their own homes and they stay in that town/location for a long time to raise their families.
You mean like Peter having his own home? John having his own home? Paul did a lot of missionary travel. The others - not so much.
Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. If you were to read in the book of Acts Paul and his co-workers spent a lot of time going from place to place strengthen their converts, appoint church elders, preaching the gospel in various places. When I was in the work my companions and I had Bible studies at the high school, colleges, with anyone who wants to know about Jesus Christ. We went door to door to pass out 1000s invitations every Saturday and the friends came and helped us also.
Going door-to-door and to local schools etc is a far cry from flying around the world for conventions.
But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. Oh my goodness! You EXES are too much... For years, the exes were complaining that the workers do NOT care about people, they don't come the board to answer theirs questions... Some workers came to TMB in the past, and you exes chased them out of here with hostility... and here Review/worker come, post and answering questions, then NOW! you say he should NOT spend his time posting on TMB, but preaching the gospel. You EXES are too much! DAMN if you do's and DAMN if you don't kind of people/COMPLAINERS!
Review answers questions? No, he doesn't. He ignores all questions and only agitates his own interests, damaging the reputation of the 2x2s more in the process. Sorry if you think that pointing out the obvious is complaining.The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? The point is you exes don't KNOW what you are saying sometimes! You complaint too MUCH. Yes, I agree the ministry should set aside money to help paying therapy for the victims of CSA caused by those in the 2x2 ministry.
Thank you for acknowledging the importance of this. |
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Post by joanna on May 17, 2019 4:40:46 GMT -5
elizabethcolemanWhat real difference does it make if a religious organisation completes a financial report? It is noted that you did not respond to the tax-exemption status of churches; presenting an annual financial statement is as irrelevant as it is unreliable when the organisation does not pay tax. The act of 'reporting on income' by churches, when that income does not generate tax, is merely a process used to placate their parishioners so the $$ keep flowing in. Your trust in "Accountability" may be naive, or a defence mechanism, as the massive wealth accrued by churches reveals their focus on financial gain to the detriment of society. Religious converts are captive and willing donors as how can one put a price on the offer of eternal salvation? As mentioned in the below excerpt "converting public worship into private wealth" is the forte of churches and their enormous net worth is testament to the focus on profit over preaching. " Australia’s legal relationship with religious institutions and their corporate enterprises is one of mixed blessings. The High Court unanimously affirmed in Scientology that despite no evidence for the supernatural, there should be no legal impediment to religious leaders obtaining ‘the financial and other privileges which come with religious status’, even suggesting ‘charlatanism is a necessary price of religious freedom’. But is the price too high? Religious trade — the art of converting public worship into private wealth — has become a billion-dollar secret cottage industry, falling between the gaps of charitable and corporate legal governance. To achieve greater equity and accountability regarding religious charities and especially their trading enterprises compared to the rest of the corporate and charitable sector, this paper prosecutes the need for a suite of simple but audacious governance reforms. The ACNC’s regulatory approach advocates five core operational values: ‘fairness; accountability; independence; integrity and respect’, which have been nicely packaged as ‘FAIIR’. The regulatory guidelines afford the ‘presumption of honesty’, stating that the Commission ‘understands that most people involved in charities are honest, acting in good faith and trying to do the right thing’." The paper concludes with: " Since federation, Freedom of Religion has inadvertently implied religious trading enterprises be granted general immunity from corporate accountability and commercial equity intended under s 51(xx) of the Australian Constitution. Murphy J’s obiter dictum in Scientology, encouraging the exploitation of the special ‘benefits and other privileges’ afforded BRCs may have been a little too generous. This unfair advantage has come at a cost to the nation and continues despite the substantial public harm suffered by many in the community. Notwithstanding a generation of political, academic and policy agitation, religious corporate trade remains a legislative ‘blind spot’." Reference Does Freedom of Religion Imply Freedom of Religious Trade?What is likely to change if the 2x2 grp introduced a public record of their donations and net worth? Parishioners of mainstream churches condone their churches burgeoning wealth and continue to "give so they can grow" why would the 2x2 people be any different? The Lord giveth and giveth and the tax man cannot taketh  If anything, the 2x2's could learn from the other churches on how to streamline donations and increase their net worth. There's sure to be some accountants within their ranks who would step up to assist in these processes.
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janj
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Post by janj on May 17, 2019 5:51:50 GMT -5
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? Just a thought: don't they go in faith because they don't ask( and I can honestly say I never recall anyone and the 2 x 2 ministry asking in any way) for money. They have faith that the members will support them and will have them into their homes to stay and will give them a bed to sleep in. The fact that they received an abundance doesn't alter the fact that they've gone in faith. If you ask God for something in faith and he gives it to you an abundance you don't say oh well now I don't need faith to receive that. Yes many of the churches are totally transparent with what is given and what is spent. How terrible is that. It is therefore everyone to see who gives what . The rich get praised for their great contributions and the poor that can't afford to contribute feel embarrassed don't say that doesn't happen because it does. I don't know if there's millions in trust funds and I don't think you do either, but what I do know is if the members don't like what the money's been spent on they don't need to give. |
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janj
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Post by janj on May 17, 2019 5:55:41 GMT -5
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? Just a thought: don't they go in faith because they don't ask( and I can honestly say I never recall anyone and the 2 x 2 ministry asking in any way) for money. They have faith that the members will support them and will have them into their homes to stay and will give them a bed to sleep in. The fact that they received an abundance doesn't alter the fact that they've gone in faith. If you ask God for something in faith and he gives it to you an abundance you don't say oh well now I don't need faith to receive that. Yes many of the churches are totally transparent with what is given and what is spent. How terrible is that. It is therefore everyone to see who gives what . The rich get praised for their great contributions and the poor that can't afford to contribute feel ashamed. Don't say that doesn't happen because it does. I don't know if there's millions in trust funds and I don't think you do either, but what I do know is if the members don't like what the money's been spent on they don't need to give. Why do so many exes get so worked up about what the money is spent on when it's not their money and they're not members? I don't understand that! I am not referring to a compensation fund I'm just referring to your many references about workers travel etc |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2019 8:02:39 GMT -5
Just a thought: don't they go in faith because they don't ask( and I can honestly say I never recall anyone and the 2 x 2 ministry asking in any way) for money. They have faith that the members will support them and will have them into their homes to stay and will give them a bed to sleep in. The fact that they received an abundance doesn't alter the fact that they've gone in faith. If you ask God for something in faith and he gives it to you an abundance you don't say oh well now I don't need faith to receive that. Yes many of the churches are totally transparent with what is given and what is spent. How terrible is that. It is therefore everyone to see who gives what . The rich get praised for their great contributions and the poor that can't afford to contribute feel ashamed. Don't say that doesn't happen because it does. I don't know if there's millions in trust funds and I don't think you do either, but what I do know is if the members don't like what the money's been spent on they don't need to give. Why do so many exes get so worked up about what the money is spent on when it's not their money and they're not members? I don't understand that! I am not referring to a compensation fund I'm just referring to your many references about workers travel etc Because: THE MONEY & THE MYTH www.culttochristbook.com/the-money-the-myth/There is a lot of emphasis by workers about the fact that they don’t take public collections of money during their meetings or missions. The truth is, I heard far more about money during Two-by-Two meetings than in other churches. It is nearly always mentioned on their public advertising (“no collection taken”). It is a point of pride that they don’t take money. It is also a myth. How much money do the workers really have? I don’t know. I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. But I think their own members should know. And I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I’m a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about churches like my own. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money, I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined. Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability. My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy: – We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. – We don’t take collections or ask for money – It all just happens. – The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. – Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings – Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality: – We take your money, but always secretly – We take far more than we need, and stash it in secret bank accounts & trusts – We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us – We always know exactly how much you give – If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives: – You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don’t the workers will know) – Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives: – The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. – There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. – Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn’t exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. – The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth
that the homeless workers go forth “by faith”. Biblical Principles: – The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) – Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) – Children of God should be regularly giving to the church for the work of the gospel (each according to their own means/income). – Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How you do think the Two-by-Two ministry fares against Biblical principles? Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in regard to their current money operations. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2019 8:12:18 GMT -5
Yes many of the churches are totally transparent with what is given and what is spent. How terrible is that. It is therefore everyone to see who gives what . The rich get praised for their great contributions and the poor that can't afford to contribute feel ashamed. Don't say that doesn't happen because it does. What is given - yes. By whom - no. I think you'll find it exactly the other way around to what you are saying. In the average church, it goes into an offering bag, unseen. Nobody knows who gave what.
But with the 2x2s? You have to give it directly to a worker. They always know who gave what. They know on which side their bread is buttered. Anyone who has been in the fellowship for any length of time will know the wealthy are treated better by the workers. I don't know if there's millions in trust funds and I don't think you do either, but what I do know is if the members don't like what the money's been spent on they don't need to give. There is. Millions. The members could stop giving, but it wins worker approval. And they are always hearing about the poor homeless workers who gave up everything (almost every meeting), so feel compelled to give. They have no idea how much is already in the coffers, so they cannot gauge the need. They don't know what it's spent on, because they aren't told. I think the average member would be shocked - totally shocked - to know how wealthy the 2x2 church is. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 11:30:03 GMT -5
I couldn't agree more with Elizabeths posts. Doesn't it make sense to keep a track of what money is being "donated" & what money is being spent (& fully accountability on exactly what every last $ is being spent on?!). While the handling of CSA is being looked at, maybe other areas should be gone over with a fine tooth comb too - like implementing a financial recording/reporting system. CSA may not be the only abuse occuring - there may be abuse of funds as well. I’ve wondered for awhile about when tax authorities are going to in head first into an internal audit of the workers. Their jetting here and there, paying cash for medical needs, sending workers to foreign countries to live and labor; all shall surely cause such tax specialists to want to know how they can afford such expenditures. It’s a lot of money when one considers it collectively. And yes, most churches keep records of financial intake and output for such reasons. Not doing so can cause a sect to lose their tax-exempt status. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 13:19:29 GMT -5
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? i don't really remember Jesus or the apostles accounting for any monies they got or being transparent about it... |
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Post by snow on May 17, 2019 13:25:55 GMT -5
Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances. Yes well that's another whole topic but I was commenting on the statement that JF's lawyer must have been paid for out of the general pool. I said not necessarily-it could have been paid for by a particular person who chose to do that. Thank you for clarifying that for me. Yes, I agree, that could have happened. |
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Post by snow on May 17, 2019 13:28:00 GMT -5
Great, that's fine. But there should be a written policy that states that any child that has been sexually assaulted should be compensated. The details of that can be figured out, but one thing that should be paid for is counselling asap. If the workers can afford to pay for private lawyers in CSA trials, then it should be a given that the survivor of Child Sexual Assault would also be taken care of financially by paying for counselling and possibly other things depending on the circumstances. ** I elect you as the first female overseer worker! Haha... Haha that might not go over well with the male workers... Do you think they will ever have a female overseer worker Nathan? |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 13:45:15 GMT -5
Freewill offerings. Of course. Same as other churches then. You mentioned 10% - this is required by some (dodgy) churches, but the majority do not ask any percentage. It is completely freewill. And I repeat - their offerings and spending is accounted for. Your group does exactly the same with no accountability. Am I out of my freaking mind? LOL. The thing is, Nathan, I've never seen any ministry that travels as much as yours, especially overseas. It certainly doesn't happen in my denomination. Where are all these workers going to? Most are just travelling back and forth between existing friends for conventions. Is that really fulfilling the command? But boy, those guys sure do spend a lot of money doing so. But then, with all those millions, I guess they have to find something to spend it on. Even if Review does spend most of him time here on TMB instead of out preaching in the countries he's visiting. I think it's a bad investment IMHO. The point is - with all that money, and all that unnecessary travelling, I'm sure the ministry could spare a bit of money for CSA-RS. Do you support such a scheme? i don't really remember Jesus or the apostles accounting for any monies they got or being transparent about it... Remember Jesus told Peter though they didn’t really qualify to have to pay a tax, but since Peter told the agents or tax collectors yes they paid their taxes; Hesus told Peter to go fishing(doing the job Peter used to do) and the first fish he caught he’d find the tax money in that poor fish’s mouth. He was to take that to the tax collectors for him and Jesus (to not offend). |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 13:48:17 GMT -5
i don't really remember Jesus or the apostles accounting for any monies they got or being transparent about it... We also don't read about them brushing their teeth...or many other things. Yet they probably did whatever the equivalent of the time were. Those that are "in" have a responsibility to not be apologists for things that are wrong even if it is uncomfortable. Or even if it feels like an attack. This is not pointed at you or for anything you have written, but in general. Being objective about something is difficult when a negative comment feels personal but that doesn't make it untrue. Apparently Jesus didn’t have money on himself often if ever. Besides the fish mouth money story, we have where it says that the women who followed Jesus gave or served him of their substances. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 16:14:23 GMT -5
i don't really remember Jesus or the apostles accounting for any monies they got or being transparent about it... We also don't read about them brushing their teeth...or many other things. Yet they probably did whatever the equivalent of the time were. Those that are "in" have a responsibility to not be apologists for things that are wrong even if it is uncomfortable. Or even if it feels like an attack. This is not pointed at you or for anything you have written, but in general. Being objective about something is difficult when a negative comment feels personal but that doesn't make it untrue. lets get real here you don't think Jesus would have foreknowledge of money orientated people in the future? in setting up the church he would have mentioned such accountability...he wasn't setting up a financial institution not even judaism had transparency or accountability that i am aware of...they just pulled in 10% and spent it however they deemed fit... |
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Ephesians 4,V,11-12,It was "HE"(J.E.S.U.S.= JESUS) who gave the gifts to mankind;"HE" appointed some to be Apostles,others to be Prophets,others to be Evangelists others to be evangelists and teachers. "HE"(JESUS"did this to prepare all God's People for the work of christian service in order to build up the Body of Christ (Church). Why do 2x2s avoid these very important verses Nathan??? Tell us "WHY"
