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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 16:15:27 GMT -5
i don't really remember Jesus or the apostles accounting for any monies they got or being transparent about it... Remember Jesus told Peter though they didn’t really qualify to have to pay a tax, but since Peter told the agents or tax collectors yes they paid their taxes; Hesus told Peter to go fishing(doing the job Peter used to do) and the first fish he caught he’d find the tax money in that poor fish’s mouth. He was to take that to the tax collectors for him and Jesus (to not offend). thats not really accountability or transparency to the church laity... |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 16:16:14 GMT -5
We also don't read about them brushing their teeth...or many other things. Yet they probably did whatever the equivalent of the time were. Those that are "in" have a responsibility to not be apologists for things that are wrong even if it is uncomfortable. Or even if it feels like an attack. This is not pointed at you or for anything you have written, but in general. Being objective about something is difficult when a negative comment feels personal but that doesn't make it untrue. Apparently Jesus didn’t have money on himself often if ever. Besides the fish mouth money story, we have where it says that the women who followed Jesus gave or served him of their substances. that doesn't say he reported back how he spent the monies.... |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 16:28:44 GMT -5
Apparently Jesus didn’t have money on himself often if ever. Besides the fish mouth money story, we have where it says that the women who followed Jesus gave or served him of their substances. that doesn't say he reported back how he spent the monies.... The point is it doesn’t seem Jesus had money, so what would he be accountable for? |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 16:32:13 GMT -5
that doesn't say he reported back how he spent the monies.... The point is it doesn’t seem Jesus had money, so what would he be accountable for? ummm the apostles probably took it on his behalf i don't think Jesus was ignorant of what was going on do you? |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 18:36:51 GMT -5
The point is it doesn’t seem Jesus had money, so what would he be accountable for? ummm the apostles probably took it on his behalf i don't think Jesus was ignorant of what was going on do you? The only time it speaks about a money bag was the night of Jesus’ betrayal. It says Judas Iscariot had the bag. The other apostles didn’t seem to know exactly why he had the bag but Jesus did. Jesus knee that bag had 30 pieces of silver for his betrayal because he told JI what you do go quickly and do it. The time Jesus told Peter to go fishing for the first fish to get the coin to pay Peter’s and his tax, in order that there wouldn’t be any offenses, I’d the only other time Jesus was spoken of in dealing with money. That tells me Jesus nor his apostles ever carried much money if any. Then when it spoke about the women who followed Jesus giving him of their substances says again, Jesus didn’t have money. |
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Post by Dan on May 17, 2019 19:56:17 GMT -5
In that case, I'm proud to say that I'm following his example to a T 
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 20:11:49 GMT -5
ummm the apostles probably took it on his behalf i don't think Jesus was ignorant of what was going on do you? The only time it speaks about a money bag was the night of Jesus’ betrayal. It says Judas Iscariot had the bag. The other apostles didn’t seem to know exactly why he had the bag but Jesus did. Jesus knee that bag had 30 pieces of silver for his betrayal because he told JI what you do go quickly and do it. The time Jesus told Peter to go fishing for the first fish to get the coin to pay Peter’s and his tax, in order that there wouldn’t be any offenses, I’d the only other time Jesus was spoken of in dealing with money. That tells me Jesus nor his apostles ever carried much money if any. Then when it spoke about the women who followed Jesus giving him of their substances says again, Jesus didn’t have money. the bag of money is also mentioned when mary came and used ointment on Jesus feet...so the bag was around....Jesus was aware of things going on around him... |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2019 20:13:07 GMT -5
i don't really remember Jesus or the apostles accounting for any monies they got or being transparent about it... I acknowledge your point. I had been pondering this (before you mentioned it). It is a wisdom issue. Remember that Judas was helping himself to the money bag - Jesus knew, and obviously it became more widely known, as it is recorded for us in scripture. That in itself should be a lesson to us that accountability is needed (John 12:6). Good practices need to be in place. I bet you that the apostles changed their practices after the Judas experience. Jesus allowed them to learn by experience. This wouldn't really be an issue if workers only ever accepted what they needed at the time, which I strongly believe was the original intent for the group starting out. Perhaps I was naive, but I grew up believing that God provided for the workers as they needed it, and nothing more. This belief was reinforced by the constant preaching that other churches were all about money, but the "Truth" was not. I feel the current reality is a deceit, because workers still stress that they don't take money or have money, and on prima facie still present themselves this way, especially to outsiders. It becomes a whole different reality if you were to tell outsiders the group is actually very wealthy with hidden bank accounts, yes? And that many sign over estates to them, yes? The first time I heard a rumour that workers kept extra money in secret bank accounts I simply didn't believe it, and neither did those around me. I was a good professing person at the time. Boy, were we gullible. Consider this recent "gospel meeting" notice put in mailboxes in Australia: ...attendance is free of charge and no one will be asked for donation. The preaching is done by unpaid volunteers... Stressed four times over in these short phrases. Free of charge - not asked for donations - unpaid - volunteers. They can't help but mention it ad nauseum every single time they have a public notice about the meetings. I wouldn't care at all how much money they had stashed away if they were honest about it, and stopped ridiculing other churches for their "worldly" honest money management practices. Sadly, it is also being squirrelled away at the highest levels, and not used where it is needed most. I have many anecdotes of funding being refused for healthcare, operations etc, for workers which end up being funded by kindhearted friends in the group because hierarchy funds were denied. If the friends knew how much was sitting in the stockpile and not being used when needed they would be outraged. But the powers that be still want to give the appearance of money not being available. If you want to give them money while knowing they already have huge amounts stashed away - that's your prerogative. I think its bad stewardship. |
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Post by Grant on May 17, 2019 20:19:44 GMT -5
Nathan wrote, the friends "trust the ministry to use the money wisely. No need for accountability."
They trusted them with their children too and looked what happened.
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Post by Roselyn T on May 17, 2019 20:23:08 GMT -5
Nathan wrote, the friends "trust the ministry to use the money wisely. No need for accountability." They trusted them with their children too and looked what happened. I was thinking the exact same thing ! |
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Post by Gene on May 17, 2019 20:26:19 GMT -5
Why do so many exes get so worked up about what the money is spent on when it's not their money and they're not members? I don't understand that! I am not referring to a compensation fund I'm just referring to your many references about workers travel etc Because: THE MONEY & THE MYTH www.culttochristbook.com/the-money-the-myth/There is a lot of emphasis by workers about the fact that they don’t take public collections of money during their meetings or missions. The truth is, I heard far more about money during Two-by-Two meetings than in other churches. It is nearly always mentioned on their public advertising (“no collection taken”). It is a point of pride that they don’t take money. It is also a myth. How much money do the workers really have? I don’t know. I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. But I think their own members should know. And I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I’m a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about churches like my own. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money, I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined. Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability. My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy: – We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. – We don’t take collections or ask for money – It all just happens. – The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. – Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings – Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality: – We take your money, but always secretly – We take far more than we need, and stash it in secret bank accounts & trusts – We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us – We always know exactly how much you give – If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives: – You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don’t the workers will know) – Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives: – The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. – There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. – Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn’t exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. – The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth
that the homeless workers go forth “by faith”. Biblical Principles: – The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) – Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) – Children of God should be regularly giving to the church for the work of the gospel (each according to their own means/income). – Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How you do think the Two-by-Two ministry fares against Biblical principles? Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in regard to their current money operations. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. Why is there no way on TMB to "like" twice? |
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Post by Grant on May 17, 2019 20:30:27 GMT -5
Nathan wrote, the friends "trust the ministry to use the money wisely. No need for accountability." They trusted them with their children too and looked what happened. I was thinking the exact same thing ! Some people seem to think that having the Holy Spirit means they can throw all wisdom and common sense out the window. I would expect it to enhance ones wisdom and common sense not decrease it. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 20:32:02 GMT -5
In that case, I'm proud to say that I'm following his example to a T The Jesus way? 😉 |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 20:34:00 GMT -5
Grant I was thinking the exact same thing ! Some people seem to think that having the Holy Spirit means they can throw all wisdom and common sense out the window. I would expect it to enhance ones wisdom and common sense not decrease it. What’s pitiful, I’ve heard even the workers admit some don’t have the HolyvSpirit or at least at times they don’t. Which my understanding is once the Holy Spirit is sent to one by God, he never leaves?! |
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Post by janj on May 17, 2019 20:34:49 GMT -5
Why do so many exes get so worked up about what the money is spent on when it's not their money and they're not members? I don't understand that! I am not referring to a compensation fund I'm just referring to your many references about workers travel etc Because: THE MONEY & THE MYTH www.culttochristbook.com/the-money-the-myth/There is a lot of emphasis by workers about the fact that they don’t take public collections of money during their meetings or missions. The truth is, I heard far more about money during Two-by-Two meetings than in other churches. It is nearly always mentioned on their public advertising (“no collection taken”). It is a point of pride that they don’t take money. It is also a myth. How much money do the workers really have? I don’t know. I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. But I think their own members should know. And I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I’m a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about churches like my own. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money, I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined. Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability. My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy: – We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. – We don’t take collections or ask for money – It all just happens. – The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. – Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings – Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality: – We take your money, but always secretly – We take far more than we need, and stash it in secret bank accounts & trusts – We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us – We always know exactly how much you give – If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives: – You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don’t the workers will know) – Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives: – The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. – There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. – Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn’t exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. – The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth
that the homeless workers go forth “by faith”. Biblical Principles: – The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) – Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) – Children of God should be regularly giving to the church for the work of the gospel (each according to their own means/income). – Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How you do think the Two-by-Two ministry fares against Biblical principles? Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in regard to their current money operations. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. There is a huge amount on your post to ponder and sorry I don't have time to go over it all now but just a couple of things: Yes I heard reports about large amounts of money stashed away and quite possibly that's true about I never witnessed any individual workers spending up large . It imagine it takes a huge amount of money to keep workers in baches overseas, run conventions and countries with friends maybe don't have the money to contribute. Of course there is going to be more money available because the workers are not paid a wage. As for going in faith: you mentioned they don't go in faith anymore than any other church. I don't know how most churches ministers would react if they we're told they were not going to be paid and were not going to have a house provided.?? You also stated that the workers know who gives what. I totally disagree. People could give their money to the workers in their district, they could send it to the overseer, they could send it directly overseas, give it directly to friends in need, or give to any of the above anonymously. The churches that are accountable and transparent - who gave what would have to be reported to the secretary, who would have to enter it into the books and yes it is on record. I'm just trying to give balanced view here because I think people tend to get very uptight about things they assume often without actually knowing the facts. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 17, 2019 20:43:18 GMT -5
The only time it speaks about a money bag was the night of Jesus’ betrayal. It says Judas Iscariot had the bag. The other apostles didn’t seem to know exactly why he had the bag but Jesus did. Jesus knee that bag had 30 pieces of silver for his betrayal because he told JI what you do go quickly and do it. The time Jesus told Peter to go fishing for the first fish to get the coin to pay Peter’s and his tax, in order that there wouldn’t be any offenses, I’d the only other time Jesus was spoken of in dealing with money. That tells me Jesus nor his apostles ever carried much money if any. Then when it spoke about the women who followed Jesus giving him of their substances says again, Jesus didn’t have money. the bag of money is also mentioned when mary came and used ointment on Jesus feet...so the bag was around....Jesus was aware of things going on around him... But in both instances, it is Judas Iscariot had the bag and in one you mention it says because he was a thief. So that bag had nothing to do with Jesus or the other apostles. It was just before the Passover. I get the impression that it was the same bag and the same 30 pieces of silver that Judas Iscariot got to betray Jesus! It’s strange to me that as many times as the Pharisees and priests sought to do away with Jesus that they didn’t know Jesus’ appearance well enough they didn’t need anyone to give him to them! Maybe in their vile envy they wanted to be double sure they got the right person? |
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Post by speak on May 17, 2019 22:16:47 GMT -5
ummm the apostles probably took it on his behalf i don't think Jesus was ignorant of what was going on do you? The only time it speaks about a money bag was the night of Jesus’ betrayal. It says Judas Iscariot had the bag. The other apostles didn’t seem to know exactly why he had the bag but Jesus did. Jesus knee that bag had 30 pieces of silver for his betrayal because he told JI what you do go quickly and do it. The time Jesus told Peter to go fishing for the first fish to get the coin to pay Peter’s and his tax, in order that there wouldn’t be any offenses, I’d the only other time Jesus was spoken of in dealing with money. That tells me Jesus nor his apostles ever carried much money if any. Then when it spoke about the women who followed Jesus giving him of their substances says again, Jesus didn’t have money. Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are Gods. |
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 22:18:08 GMT -5
the bag of money is also mentioned when mary came and used ointment on Jesus feet...so the bag was around....Jesus was aware of things going on around him... But in both instances, it is Judas Iscariot had the bag and in one you mention it says because he was a thief. So that bag had nothing to do with Jesus or the other apostles. It was just before the Passover. I get the impression that it was the same bag and the same 30 pieces of silver that Judas Iscariot got to betray Jesus! It’s strange to me that as many times as the Pharisees and priests sought to do away with Jesus that they didn’t know Jesus’ appearance well enough they didn’t need anyone to give him to them! Maybe in their vile envy they wanted to be double sure they got the right person? he may have been a thief but that doesn't mean thats what the bag was for....i'll agree we may both be speculating here... |
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Post by nathan on May 17, 2019 22:20:44 GMT -5
** I elect you as the first female overseer worker! Haha... Haha that might not go over well with the male workers... Do you think they will ever have a female overseer worker Nathan? |
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Post by speak on May 17, 2019 22:21:27 GMT -5
Because: THE MONEY & THE MYTH www.culttochristbook.com/the-money-the-myth/There is a lot of emphasis by workers about the fact that they don’t take public collections of money during their meetings or missions. The truth is, I heard far more about money during Two-by-Two meetings than in other churches. It is nearly always mentioned on their public advertising (“no collection taken”). It is a point of pride that they don’t take money. It is also a myth. How much money do the workers really have? I don’t know. I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. But I think their own members should know. And I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I’m a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about churches like my own. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money, I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined. Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability. My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy: – We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. – We don’t take collections or ask for money – It all just happens. – The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. – Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings – Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality: – We take your money, but always secretly – We take far more than we need, and stash it in secret bank accounts & trusts – We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us – We always know exactly how much you give – If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives: – You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don’t the workers will know) – Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives: – The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. – There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. – Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn’t exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. – The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth
that the homeless workers go forth “by faith”. Biblical Principles: – The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) – Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) – Children of God should be regularly giving to the church for the work of the gospel (each according to their own means/income). – Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How you do think the Two-by-Two ministry fares against Biblical principles? Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in regard to their current money operations. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. There is a huge amount on your post to ponder and sorry I don't have time to go over it all now but just a couple of things: Yes I heard reports about large amounts of money stashed away and quite possibly that's true about I never witnessed any individual workers spending up large . It imagine it takes a huge amount of money to keep workers in baches overseas, run conventions and countries with friends maybe don't have the money to contribute. Of course there is going to be more money available because the workers are not paid a wage. As for going in faith: you mentioned they don't go in faith anymore than any other church. I don't know how most churches ministers would react if they we're told they were not going to be paid and were not going to have a house provided.?? You also stated that the workers know who gives what. I totally disagree. People could give their money to the workers in their district, they could send it to the overseer, they could send it directly overseas, give it directly to friends in need, or give to any of the above anonymously. The churches that are accountable and transparent - who gave what would have to be reported to the secretary, who would have to enter it into the books and yes it is on record. I'm just trying to give balanced view here because I think people tend to get very uptight about things they assume often without actually knowing the facts. They can't spend a lot on themselves it would be so obvious. I have know monies been given to the saints in dire straits from the ministry. |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2019 22:24:03 GMT -5
Yes I heard reports about large amounts of money stashed away and quite possibly that's true about I never witnessed any individual workers spending up large . It imagine it takes a huge amount of money to keep workers in baches overseas, run conventions and countries with friends maybe don't have the money to contribute. Of course there is going to be more money available because the workers are not paid a wage. As for going in faith: you mentioned they don't go in faith anymore than any other church. I don't know how most churches ministers would react if they we're told they were not going to be paid and were not going to have a house provided.?? You also stated that the workers know who gives what. I totally disagree. People could give their money to the workers in their district, they could send it to the overseer, they could send it directly overseas, give it directly to friends in need, or give to any of the above anonymously. The churches that are accountable and transparent - who gave what would have to be reported to the secretary, who would have to enter it into the books and yes it is on record. I'm just trying to give balanced view here because I think people tend to get very uptight about things they assume often without actually knowing the facts. Just a quick comment re what you said about who gave what being reported to the secretary - this is not correct. I understand you may not have familiarity with how offerings are collected in other churches. Generally a bag or plate is passed around. Our church uses a bag with a round wooden rim and wooden handles either side. The giver has the money inside their palm, rolled up, and their whole hand goes into the bag to release the money. There is no way even for the person sitting next to you to know how much you gave - it could be 50c or $200. The bags are then emptied after the service in a the presence of two witnesses (we say they should not be related to each other, for good practice), where it is counted, and annotated and signed before being passed to a 3rd person to bank. It is literally impossible to know who gave what. Money can also be placed in an envelope (identical envelopes are provided) with the name of a mission or cause that we support written on the front. No names - but it is counted to then distribute to that mission. Of course, many also give to other Christian missions / causes privately. I don't know if you are in Australia or US - maybe US does it different because donations are tax deductible? I'm not sure. In Australia our money is already taxed, and we do NOT get any tax deductions for donations to the church. |
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Post by nathan on May 17, 2019 22:24:17 GMT -5
Because: THE MONEY & THE MYTH www.culttochristbook.com/the-money-the-myth/There is a lot of emphasis by workers about the fact that they don’t take public collections of money during their meetings or missions. The truth is, I heard far more about money during Two-by-Two meetings than in other churches. It is nearly always mentioned on their public advertising (“no collection taken”). It is a point of pride that they don’t take money. It is also a myth. How much money do the workers really have? I don’t know. I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. But I think their own members should know. And I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I’m a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about churches like my own. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money, I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined. Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability. My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy: – We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. – We don’t take collections or ask for money – It all just happens. – The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. – Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings – Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality: – We take your money, but always secretly – We take far more than we need, and stash it in secret bank accounts & trusts – We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us – We always know exactly how much you give – If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives: – You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don’t the workers will know) – Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives: – The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. – There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. – Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn’t exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. – The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth
that the homeless workers go forth “by faith”. Biblical Principles: – The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) – Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) – Children of God should be regularly giving to the church for the work of the gospel (each according to their own means/income). – Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How you do think the Two-by-Two ministry fares against Biblical principles? Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in regard to their current money operations. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. There is a huge amount on your post to ponder and sorry I don't have time to go over it all now but just a couple of things: Yes I heard reports about large amounts of money stashed away and quite possibly that's true about I never witnessed any individual workers spending up large . It imagine it takes a huge amount of money to keep workers in baches overseas, run conventions and countries with friends maybe don't have the money to contribute. Of course there is going to be more money available because the workers are not paid a wage. As for going in faith: you mentioned they don't go in faith anymore than any other church. I don't know how most churches ministers would react if they we're told they were not going to be paid and were not going to have a house provided.?? You also stated that the workers know who gives what. I totally disagree. People could give their money to the workers in their district, they could send it to the overseer, they could send it directly overseas, give it directly to friends in need, or give to any of the above anonymously. The churches that are accountable and transparent - who gave what would have to be reported to the secretary, who would have to enter it into the books and yes it is on record. I'm just trying to give balanced view here because I think people tend to get very uptight about things they assume often without actually knowing the facts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2019 22:26:17 GMT -5
Because: THE MONEY & THE MYTH www.culttochristbook.com/the-money-the-myth/There is a lot of emphasis by workers about the fact that they don’t take public collections of money during their meetings or missions. The truth is, I heard far more about money during Two-by-Two meetings than in other churches. It is nearly always mentioned on their public advertising (“no collection taken”). It is a point of pride that they don’t take money. It is also a myth. How much money do the workers really have? I don’t know. I’m not interested in the specifics. I don’t have a right to know. But I think their own members should know. And I’m interested in the monetary principles espoused by the Two-by-Twos, and the accusations they make against other churches on this topic. I’m a member of another church, so I care what accusations are made about churches like my own. I’m interested in the perpetuated myths versus the reality. When I challenge the Two-by-Two Ministry on their handling of money, I do so because of the pervasive myths and persuasive mystique surrounding this ministry and its handling of money which needs to be examined. Myth: The Two-by-Two ministry is God’s only true plan and pattern, and the friends and workers are the only true followers of this pattern. They follow the pattern and everything else miraculously falls into place. They take no collection, yet all their needs are met. The “worldly” churches, on the other hand, take collections and constantly seek money. Their paid ministers are hirelings. Truth: The workers do what they accuse the “worldly” churches of doing, but do it in secret. They take collections via private visits and deceased estates. Far from taking only what they require for their day-to-day needs, there is strong evidence of a stockpiling of resources that has been going on for many years. Money is put in bank accounts secretly, and those who are entrusted with this knowledge also have to keep it secret. The only real difference between the Two-by-Twos and most other churches is the accountability. My charge against the Workers: The Two-by-Two Ministry does not operate “by faith” any more than the average church. It just operates with far more secrecy and far less accountability. It also operates against Biblical principles for tithing. Two-by-Two Money Philosophy: – We aren’t concerned with such worldly matters. God meets all our needs. – We don’t take collections or ask for money – It all just happens. – The workers sacrifice their lives in an unpaid, homeless ministry as part of God’s plan. – Worldly paid ministers are just in it for the money, and are hirelings – Worldly churches are just in it for the money, and are always asking for it. Two-by-Two Reality: – We take your money, but always secretly – We take far more than we need, and stash it in secret bank accounts & trusts – We aren’t accountable to anyone, you just have to trust us – We always know exactly how much you give – If you ask any questions about how much money we have or what we do with it, you have the wrong spirit. Two-by-Two positives: – You don’t have to give money (though this is not Biblical, and if you don’t the workers will know) – Convention is free for attendees (though this must cost a lot from stockpiled money/private contributors) Two-by-Two negatives: – The workers always know exactly who gives money and how much, because it is given directly by hand, or via deceased estates. If you don’t give, the workers will know. If you give a lot, the workers will know. It is highly likely that this will inevitably affect their view (and treatment) of you. – There is no accountability. None. But there seems to be an inordinate amount of world travel going on by many workers. – Workers accuse all other churches (who do provide accountability) of being money oriented, while pretending money doesn’t exist in Two-by-Two land. Out of sight, out of mind. – The workers claim to live “by faith”, following the model of the New Testament where Jesus sent them out with only what they needed for their imminent needs. However, this is far from the case with the Two-by-Two ministry as we see it. There are potentially vast sums of money stockpiled in secret bank accounts and trusts. It is hidden from members because: the reality would vastly undermine the perpetuated myth
that the homeless workers go forth “by faith”. Biblical Principles: – The worker is worthy of his keep (the worker is worthy of wages) – Don’t muzzle the ox while it treads out the grain (those who work deserve payment) – Children of God should be regularly giving to the church for the work of the gospel (each according to their own means/income). – Nobody should know how much you give. It is between you and God. (Note that the workers always know how much you give). How you do think the Two-by-Two ministry fares against Biblical principles? Finally, let me just clarify: Money is not evil. It is the “love of money” that is the root of all evil. Money is needed and necessary. It is not wrong to accumulate money for necessary and good purposes. But I would suggest it is wrong to accumulate it while hiding it and denying it and refusing to provide accountability on it, especially while calling out other churches on their collection and use of money. That’s just plain hypocrisy of the highest order. Perhaps the workers need to clarify what “going forth in faith” really means, why they accumulate money secretly (rather than admitting it or taking only what they need), and what forms of accountability they have in place. Perhaps they could also explain how their ministry still equates with the New Testament ministry in regard to their current money operations. As a member of another church whose money practices would be denounced and made fun of by the workers, I think these are reasonable questions. There is a huge amount on your post to ponder and sorry I don't have time to go over it all now but just a couple of things: Yes I heard reports about large amounts of money stashed away and quite possibly that's true about I never witnessed any individual workers spending up large . It imagine it takes a huge amount of money to keep workers in baches overseas, run conventions and countries with friends maybe don't have the money to contribute. Of course there is going to be more money available because the workers are not paid a wage. As for going in faith: you mentioned they don't go in faith anymore than any other church. I don't know how most churches ministers would react if they we're told they were not going to be paid and were not going to have a house provided.?? You also stated that the workers know who gives what. I totally disagree. People could give their money to the workers in their district, they could send it to the overseer, they could send it directly overseas, give it directly to friends in need, or give to any of the above anonymously. The churches that are accountable and transparent - who gave what would have to be reported to the secretary, who would have to enter it into the books and yes it is on record. I'm just trying to give balanced view here because I think people tend to get very uptight about things they assume often without actually knowing the facts. i give anonymously can't be sure they get it but thats how i do it..... |
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Post by elizabethcoleman on May 17, 2019 22:32:39 GMT -5
They can't spend a lot on themselves it would be so obvious. I have know monies been given to the saints in dire straits from the ministry. True. I think this is why so much is spent on: - overseas travel - phones & laptops - convention grounds (despite them ridiculing church buildings). Not having a salary does free up significant funds. However, I would argue that is unbiblical (the worker is worthy his wages) and creates unnecessary bondage plus a host of other problems as we have learnt from experience (including mental health issues due to the constant strain of a difficult companion and living in someone else's house). I am glad to hear money has been given to those of the friends in need. It would be great if other Christian/humanitarian causes could be supported through regular offerings: www.cbm.org.au/Christian Blind Mission (CBM) is an international Christian development organisation devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities in the poorest places on earth. Poverty and disability go hand in hand creating a cycle of inequality, isolation and exclusion that leads to the most extreme forms of poverty. |
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janj
Senior Member
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Post by janj on May 17, 2019 23:56:44 GMT -5
They can't spend a lot on themselves it would be so obvious. I have know monies been given to the saints in dire straits from the ministry. True. I think this is why so much is spent on: - overseas travel - phones & laptops - convention grounds (despite them ridiculing church buildings). Not having a salary does free up significant funds. However, I would argue that is unbiblical (the worker is worthy his wages) and creates unnecessary bondage plus a host of other problems as we have learnt from experience (including mental health issues due to the constant strain of a difficult companion and living in someone else's house). I am glad to hear money has been given to those of the friends in need. It would be great if other Christian/humanitarian causes could be supported through regular offerings: www.cbm.org.au/Christian Blind Mission (CBM) is an international Christian development organisation devoted to improving the lives of people with disabilities in the poorest places on earth. Poverty and disability go hand in hand creating a cycle of inequality, isolation and exclusion that leads to the most extreme forms of poverty. Yes it is very good to hear and if the 2x2's dont like the way their money is being used, they can instead donate that money straight to charity. I did read on here once that the minisrty do give surplus money to the Red Cross but ? Of course as they believe in keeping things below the radar, they could be giving huge amounts of $$'s to charity and no one would know. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 18, 2019 0:46:58 GMT -5
The only time it speaks about a money bag was the night of Jesus’ betrayal. It says Judas Iscariot had the bag. The other apostles didn’t seem to know exactly why he had the bag but Jesus did. Jesus knee that bag had 30 pieces of silver for his betrayal because he told JI what you do go quickly and do it. The time Jesus told Peter to go fishing for the first fish to get the coin to pay Peter’s and his tax, in order that there wouldn’t be any offenses, I’d the only other time Jesus was spoken of in dealing with money. That tells me Jesus nor his apostles ever carried much money if any. Then when it spoke about the women who followed Jesus giving him of their substances says again, Jesus didn’t have money. Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are Gods. Jesus didn’t have any money then, he asked for someone to give him a coin. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on May 18, 2019 0:47:58 GMT -5
But in both instances, it is Judas Iscariot had the bag and in one you mention it says because he was a thief. So that bag had nothing to do with Jesus or the other apostles. It was just before the Passover. I get the impression that it was the same bag and the same 30 pieces of silver that Judas Iscariot got to betray Jesus! It’s strange to me that as many times as the Pharisees and priests sought to do away with Jesus that they didn’t know Jesus’ appearance well enough they didn’t need anyone to give him to them! Maybe in their vile envy they wanted to be double sure they got the right person? he may have been a thief but that doesn't mean thats what the bag was for....i'll agree we may both be speculating here... The accounting says because he was a thief. |
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Post by speak on May 18, 2019 1:28:56 GMT -5
Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesars and unto God the things that are Gods. Jesus didn’t have any money then, he asked for someone to give him a coin. Wallah.  |
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