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Post by benar on May 24, 2019 19:44:11 GMT -5
Bad people equals no god, eh? By that logic, good people prove God, eh? Were sure to win a Nobel prize soon! Another strawman argument. |
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Post by magpie1 on May 24, 2019 19:57:05 GMT -5
Benar,Nothing is new? Everything is there from creation,men discover how to use it,not actually invent it,uses for it. Magpie PS anyway what has this got to do wqith a Redress Scheme?
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Post by Lee on May 24, 2019 20:35:34 GMT -5
Atheists want to blame it on christians. That is silly dumb! Blame it on dumb christians maybe, but then, whose calling the kettle black? Strawman argument Assertion without evidence. Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. A belief does not make a fact. The argument or advantage of logic has limits. Reasonable people are after something more subtler than that. |
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Post by BobWilliston on May 24, 2019 21:05:23 GMT -5
I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one. If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc... If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to. I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important.[/quote] Churches only attract blame to themselves when they assume the authority of government -- investigation, prosecution, judgement, and punishment. CSA is not the only area where churches intrude on civil authority. And it's not just churches who intrude on civil authority. |
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Post by Dan on May 24, 2019 21:43:09 GMT -5
Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2019 22:43:49 GMT -5
Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.
wow thats what my mother said a long time ago to a guy who brought up the very same thing....good job |
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Post by Dan on May 24, 2019 22:59:49 GMT -5
Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.
wow thats what my mother said a long time ago to a guy who brought up the very same thing....good job  |
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Post by joanna on May 25, 2019 0:27:30 GMT -5
Dan . The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years oldThe human species is approximately 350,000 years old. For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet. The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.
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janj
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Post by janj on May 25, 2019 0:38:39 GMT -5
I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one. If there were no churches I don't believe there would be any fewer abusers. Since the beginning of time abusers have hidden themselves in groups: sports, families,community, clubs etc... If there were no churches they would just find another group to attach themselves to. I get so frustrated when people blame a particular group for CSA. No group can be held responsible for a particular persons actions, it is only how the abuse and the abusers are delt with that is important. Churches only attract blame to themselves when they assume the authority of government -- investigation, prosecution, judgement, and punishment. CSA is not the only area where churches intrude on civil authority. And it's not just churches who intrude on civil authority.[/quote] By the way - that wasn't my quote, but the site seems to be playing up and quoting things directly under the previous poster instead of in a new box. |
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Post by nathan on May 25, 2019 1:08:35 GMT -5
Dan . The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years oldThe human species is approximately 350,000 years old. For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet. The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.
There had been other human races (Neanderthals, Denisovan, Homo erectus, and others) for millions or maybe billion of years created by God.
Then 6000 years ago, The Elohim= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit created Adamic homo sapiens race in the Garden of Eden. The Godhead created Adam and Eve in their Image, so they and their children would RULE and REIGN with them over all of His/their creation in the Universe! Satan deceived Adam and Eve into sins and they lost their crown of life/Immortality and they became mortal beings.
Christ came down from heaven to RESTORE their rightful place with Him as the children of God created in their image to RULE the Universe with the Godhead.
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Post by Dan on May 25, 2019 1:16:03 GMT -5
Dan . The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years oldThe human species is approximately 350,000 years old. For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet. The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.
I've seen some of those human fossils with elongated jaws, no forehead, etc. No offense, but they look much more like apes than anything humanoid.
Having a few similarities to modern man does not make them our ancestors. Imo, it takes a greater imagination to accept that they evolved into us than it does to believe the bible. But everyone chooses to believe what they will.
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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2019 1:31:13 GMT -5
Yeah. Somewhere a quote sign got left out.
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Post by Ross.Bowden on May 25, 2019 8:41:23 GMT -5
There is no doubt about the great healer’s existence - no doubt about the historicity of Christ. And as you know people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection. Obviously, everyone forms their own view about Jesus and clearly those who believe do not do so on the basis of no evidence - there is plenty. It’s all been discussed a million times. It’s just a bit puzzling why some atheists spend so much time thinking about Jesus and the Bible and why nearly every thread on TMB these days has to end up in an attack on Jesus. I’m sure He is not terribly worried - He hasn’t promised to intervene in a fallen world ahead of His return and Christians look forward to the day that He will make all things new. It must be a turn-off for professing people when TMB is clearly a board predominantly about a church that believes in Jesus. Ross, if there was no doubt, there would be proof. The person who discovered this proof would have been awarded a Nobel prize, for rendering much of what we know as good science to be worthless. I am quite confident that you have no doubt as to Jesus' existence, but to state your belief as fact is erroneous. Unfortunately it does not matter that "people who believe in Jesus accept the written record of eye witness accounts of Christ after His resurrection". This is confirmation bias and the argument from popularity, in which an belief's popularity has no bearing on its truthfulness. At one time, the bulk of the population thought that the earth was flat. Obviously it doesn't matter how many people believe the earth is flat, it doesn't make it so. There are standards of evidence, Ross. The 'evidence' provided for the existence of a god (there are thousands to choose from, remember) usually comes back to feelings and personal experience, which are notoriously unreliable. If a Christian 'proves' Yahweh through feelings and personal experience, a Muslim 'proves' Allah through the same and a Hindu 'proves' Vishnu, explain to me how personal experience is a reliable way to determine truth. As for "no doubt about the historicity of Christ", you are deluding yourself if you think that is the case. Once again, I have full confidence that you have no doubt about the historicity of Christ, but to state as fact that there is no doubt is again erroneous. More and more scholars are coming to the conclusion that Christ is a mythical character. I presume you are an atheist when it comes to every god but your own and I'm sure you have no trouble admitting that humans have invented gods in the past. Many of these gods/godmen were based on pre-existing myths. Lets do a quick exercise and invent our own godman right now. We'll give him the following characteristics: Born of a virgin on December 25th. Child teacher at age 12. Begins his ministry at age 30. Heals the sick, raises the dead, walks on water, turns water into wine. Has 12 close followers. Is crucified, killed, dead for three days, before resurrecting and ascending into heaven. Who do you think we've based our godman on? Jesus? Nope... We have not used Jesus as a source for any one of the characteristics we've given our godman. They have all been copied from gods/godmen who predate the time of the NT, just the way I suspect the Jesus character was assembled. Why go to lengths debunking the myth of Christ on TMB? Simple - because as you're more aware than most, real people have been hurt by CSA and the "great healer" is nowhere to be seen. Relying on a fictional character to give any sort of solace here is doing nothing to help. Give a man a fish and you'll feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and you'll feed him for life. Teach a man to pray for fish and he'll die of starvation. I apologise for my tone - it's not meant to be personal; I just get annoyed that religions built on myths facilitate all sorts of harm, of which CSA is one. The theory that Christ is a myth is widely regarded by scholars/historians as a fringe theory. Its relatively limited number of proponents often hedge the theory by added “but if he existed he has nothing to do with Christianity” - I guess an each-way bet. Scholars/historians have long concluded that Christ lived and also died on a Roman cross based on the available evidence, both secular and Biblical. More and more scholars are simply not coming to the conclusion that Christ is a mythical character. You might hope there are or you might embrace the writings of one who does but that is simply confirmation bias. |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:16:02 GMT -5
Strawman argument Assertion without evidence. Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. A belief does not make a fact. The argument or advantage of logic has limits. Reasonable people are after something more subtler than that. Even good, intelligent and reasonable people fall prey to wishful thinking. |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:19:47 GMT -5
Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.
What!!?? How in the world did you ever come to that conclusion based on that hypothesis? Things would improve if humans weren't around and the earth neither needs or requires us to therefore it was made for us? I have no idea how you came to that conclusion I truly don't. |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:28:50 GMT -5
Dan . The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years oldThe human species is approximately 350,000 years old. For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet. The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense.
There had been other human races (Neanderthals, Denisovan, Homo erectus, and others) for millions or maybe billion of years created by God.
Then 6000 years ago, The Elohim= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit created Adamic homo sapiens race in the Garden of Eden. The Godhead created Adam and Eve in their Image, so they and their children would RULE and REIGN with them over all of His/their creation in the Universe! Satan deceived Adam and Eve into sins and they lost their crown of life/Immortality and they became mortal beings.
Christ came down from heaven to RESTORE their rightful place with Him as the children of God created in their image to RULE the Universe with the Godhead.
You do realize the Elohim came from an old Sumerian story. Z. Sitchen took it a step further and said they were from Planet X that is supposed to have a very long counter clockwise orbit. The El from the story was just stolen by the Hebrews and they made him their God. The Mormons seem to believe when they die the males all get a planet to populate. It's all a myth though. The difference is the Sumerians knew it and the Hebrews seemed to believe it and make it their creation story. |
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Post by Lee on May 25, 2019 13:29:01 GMT -5
The argument or advantage of logic has limits. Reasonable people are after something more subtler than that. Even good, intelligent and reasonable people fall prey to wishful thinking. I suppose there are worse sins. The only difference between wishful thinking and a respectable faith sometimes is the depth, maturity, and intentions of a believer. Think of an entrepreneur. They don't know they'll be successful. But if their motivations are right and if they're authentically connected with their ambition, whether they win or lose, they'll arrive in a better condition. |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:35:25 GMT -5
Dan . The Earth is approximately 4.5 billion years oldThe human species is approximately 350,000 years old. For over 4 billion years there were no humans on this planet. The belief that the planet was created for us makes zero sense. I've seen some of those human fossils with elongated jaws, no forehead, etc. No offense, but they look much more like apes than anything humanoid.
Having a few similarities to modern man does not make them our ancestors. Imo, it takes a greater imagination to accept that they evolved into us than it does to believe the bible. But everyone chooses to believe what they will.
They were not any different from us in many ways except their looks. We have slowly evolved to look a little different, though some, you can definitely see the resemblance. They walked upright, they buried their dead, they talked, planned hunts together, warred against each other. What about them wasn't 'human'. Do apes talk? It should make you even more clear on the fact that mankind has evolved, not less. But it just goes to show, that anything can be ignored if it's not what is wanted to be believed. Doesn't make it any less true just because some don't believe. It just makes those who don't understand evolution deficient in their understanding of the world in that particular area. There is so much evidence that it is no longer disputable yet people still think they know more than scientists that have studied this for years, because an old book, written by people that had little to no understanding of their world, said so?! Why? |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 13:44:08 GMT -5
Even good, intelligent and reasonable people fall prey to wishful thinking. I suppose there are worse sins. The only difference between wishful thinking and a respectable faith is the depth, maturity, and intentions of a believer. Think of an entrepreneur. They don't know they'll be successful. But if their motivations are right, if they're authentically connected with their ambition, whether they win or lose, they'll arrive in a better condition. Or I'm sure there are worse, yes. The difference between belief in succeeding at something that has a tangible evidence of existing and having a probability for success vs a belief that there are gods, that these gods have a list of things you can or cannot do, and if you believe one of them died for you, then you get to go to a heavenly afterlife, is huge. The problem with forgoing evidence to base beliefs on is the probability that you will also use that reasoning in other areas of your life where it could get you into trouble. A good example of that is people who believe their god doesn't want them to have blood transfusions and withhold life sustaining blood from their offspring based on beliefs for which there is zero evidence. |
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Post by Lee on May 25, 2019 14:11:47 GMT -5
Being Christian doesn't equate to being dumb. You don't have to entertain the bias. I suppose we need someone to remind us, not to be dumb.
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 14:41:50 GMT -5
Being Christian doesn't equate to being dumb. You don't have to entertain the bias. I suppose we need someone to remind us, not to be dumb. No, and I've never said that being a Christian equates to being dumb. Someone can be very intelligent, reasonable and still have a belief in a God or Gods. But unfortunately when we do give credence to there being a God, we also try to uphold the rules that our particular God gives us. So based on what religion you were born into, or decided was the one you'd like to believe in, then you tend to follow the rules if you think they are live of death, heaven or hell serious. That's one reason why some of the friends won't leave the Truth group. They literally believe that it's a matter of heaven or hell if they leave the only true way. When we start to allow for belief without evidence we leave ourselves open to all kinds of other improbable things that very well can be dangerous. Not because we are dumb, but because we believe and the consequences (we believe) could very well be hell if we give our kids a blood transfusion or leave the group called the Truth. |
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Post by Lee on May 25, 2019 14:52:26 GMT -5
What do you think of Paul's advise not to be asking who's going up and down. Why do you think Christianity was obedient rarely?
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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2019 16:05:03 GMT -5
Strawman argument - Christianity, which thinks all this was 'created' for man is self-centred. Consider the natural order of the world and how everything works in synchronization. Remove plants & trees, animals, birds, insects, or anything else in creation, and it would be disruptive and detrimental to how everything works together in complete harmony. But remove mankind and it changes nothing, in fact things would likely improve. God gave man dominion, but creation doesn't need or require us, so logic would dictate that it was designed for us.
And who caused all the extinctions and disasters before man came along? |
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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2019 16:10:36 GMT -5
The earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old.
There had been other human races (Neanderthals, Denisovan, Homo erectus, and others) for millions or maybe billion of years created by God.
Then 6000 years ago, The Elohim= God the Father, Christ and Holy Spirit created Adamic homo sapiens race in the Garden of Eden. The Godhead created Adam and Eve in their Image, so they and their children would RULE and REIGN with them over all of His/their creation in the Universe! Satan deceived Adam and Eve into sins and they lost their crown of life/Immortality and they became mortal beings.
Christ came down from heaven to RESTORE their rightful place with Him as the children of God created in their image to RULE the Universe with the Godhead.
You do realize the Elohim came from an old Sumerian story. Z. Sitchen took it a step further and said they were from Planet X that is supposed to have a very long counter clockwise orbit. The El from the story was just stolen by the Hebrews and they made him their God. The Mormons seem to believe when they die the males all get a planet to populate. It's all a myth though. The difference is the Sumerians knew it and the Hebrews seemed to believe it and make it their creation story. In fact, it's common enough among Jewish people to believe that the whole "story" of the OT/Tanakh are myths and lore, undoubtedly inspirational in some way, but not absolute truth. |
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Post by BobWilliston on May 25, 2019 16:18:05 GMT -5
Being Christian doesn't equate to being dumb. You don't have to entertain the bias. I suppose we need someone to remind us, not to be dumb. Remember the Trump family phrase: Appearance is everything. So don't look dumb.  |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 19:41:44 GMT -5
What do you think of Paul's advise not to be asking who's going up and down. Why do you think Christianity was obedient rarely? If you mean heaven and hell by 'up and down', I think it's good advice. If Christianity is the right religion and there is a Christian God, judging who will make it or not should be seen as taboo. The bible clearly says that it's up to God and no one knows the heart of anyone else or how God views them. |
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Post by snow on May 25, 2019 19:43:31 GMT -5
You do realize the Elohim came from an old Sumerian story. Z. Sitchen took it a step further and said they were from Planet X that is supposed to have a very long counter clockwise orbit. The El from the story was just stolen by the Hebrews and they made him their God. The Mormons seem to believe when they die the males all get a planet to populate. It's all a myth though. The difference is the Sumerians knew it and the Hebrews seemed to believe it and make it their creation story. In fact, it's common enough among Jewish people to believe that the whole "story" of the OT/Tanakh are myths and lore, undoubtedly inspirational in some way, but not absolute truth. Yes, I know that's how it's viewed today. I always think it's ironic that Christians take the Hebrew book more literally than the modern day Jews do! |
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Post by joanna on May 25, 2019 19:45:42 GMT -5
I am genuinely concerned with the confusing messages that have been submitted on this thread. The main intention of the thread was to encourage the 2x2 grp to register with the Redress Scheme. This is one of the recommendations of the Royal Commission that the 2x2 workers should be heeding. Yet this thread also refers to Jesus being the great healer and recognises that the 2x2 members believe in Jesus: The Royal Commission proved that religious institutions believe they are above the law and exempt from following processes intended to prevent CSA and to support the victims. Their belief that the Lord's ways are higher than man's ways would be one of the reasons for churches to disregard secular recommendations. Therefore reinforcing that Jesus is the great healer provides an out for the 2x2 workers to just leave it in the Lord's hands as he will provide help and sustain the victims. ^this question has still not been answered. elizabethcoleman & or Ross.Bowden Could you please explain to the 2x2 readers of this thread why they cannot rely on Jesus to be the great healer in regards to the sexual abuse of children within the 2x2 church and why instead the ethical action is for the workers to conform to secular advice and processes. The 2x2 members need to understand why they cannot rely on Jesus to 'redress' the effects of CSA. Thank you. |
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