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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 0:21:58 GMT -5
regardless of why or how they left they left are you weird to think i think its right for a worker to abuse children/ girls? You are justifying someone who has abused children, don't you understand why the victims left? Honestly ! As I said before this was happening in the 70's and the Head Worker knew it was happening but nothing was done ! How do you think his victims felt Virgo? The whole idea of re-baptism is wrong in my opinion. The point I was making about what would happen if the victims wanted to be re-baptised, was this: Mr Harvey abused children, has not apologised to his victims & now has secretly been re-baptised by the workers. Now if one of his victims left the meeting because of the abuse they suffered for Mr Harvey, now want to be re-baptised (because that is the rule according to the workers) they would have to abide by all the man-made rules like not having short hair, not wearing jewellery etc etc before the workers would re-baptise them. Now on the other hand we have a ex-worker who has done time for abusing children, who has not apologised to his victims being re-baptised by the workers !!! Double standard or what ! i understand very well about being a victim thanks very much probably a lot more than you ever will so what has happened to him they left period, if he repented before God it is his right to be baptised, God knows his heart more than you ever will but it seems to me that you think you know more than He does and more than said ex-worker does i in no way sympathize with him in anyway shape or form, his re-baptism may mean nothing at all, maybe like a foolish virgins heart who knows |
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Post by withlove on Apr 3, 2015 0:22:20 GMT -5
Can you remind me please? Gods will for victims is that Jesus Christ heals and can heal them. He can heal their emotions and physical body. He came to set us free from bondage. Victims of abuse need to be set free from the chains of bondage the abuser bound them with. Probably word threats. Mind information. Gods will for perpetrators is clear. 'Better a millstone is hung around their kneck.' What abusers have done is wickedness. Whoever they are. Worker or not. I don't want to stand in the way of justice either. Not sure what justice would be though, outside of disallowing them in meetings and reporting them to the authorities. Do you think it is our job to make judgements about their salvation? Do you think that quote means that they should be executed? I thought it just meant they would be better off dead than to commit an offense. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 3, 2015 0:37:40 GMT -5
You are justifying someone who has abused children, don't you understand why the victims left? Honestly ! As I said before this was happening in the 70's and the Head Worker knew it was happening but nothing was done ! How do you think his victims felt Virgo? The whole idea of re-baptism is wrong in my opinion. The point I was making about what would happen if the victims wanted to be re-baptised, was this: Mr Harvey abused children, has not apologised to his victims & now has secretly been re-baptised by the workers. Now if one of his victims left the meeting because of the abuse they suffered for Mr Harvey, now want to be re-baptised (because that is the rule according to the workers) they would have to abide by all the man-made rules like not having short hair, not wearing jewellery etc etc before the workers would re-baptise them. Now on the other hand we have a ex-worker who has done time for abusing children, who has not apologised to his victims being re-baptised by the workers !!! Double standard or what ! i understand very well about being a victim thanks very much probably a lot more than you ever will so what has happened to him they left period, if he repented before God it is his right to be baptised, God knows his heart more than you ever will but it seems to me that you think you know more than He does and more than said ex-worker does i in no way sympathize with him in anyway shape or form, his re-baptism may mean nothing at all, maybe like a foolish virgins heart who knows You assume a lot Virgo ! Is not apologising to victims repenting ? You have missed the point altogether, why is there one set of rules for ex-workers & another for his victims ? Once again its all about the poor worker who molested children ! Do you not see the double standard ? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 1:41:04 GMT -5
i understand very well about being a victim thanks very much probably a lot more than you ever will so what has happened to him they left period, if he repented before God it is his right to be baptised, God knows his heart more than you ever will but it seems to me that you think you know more than He does and more than said ex-worker does i in no way sympathize with him in anyway shape or form, his re-baptism may mean nothing at all, maybe like a foolish virgins heart who knows You assume a lot Virgo ! Is not apologising to victims repenting ? You have missed the point altogether, why is there one set of rules for ex-workers & another for his victims ? Once again its all about the poor worker who molested children ! Do you not see the double standard ? once again you got it all wrong, so once again i will say no more |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 3, 2015 3:19:01 GMT -5
What you really mean Virgo is you are justifying something that is wrong ! You cannot or will not acknowledge that there is a double standard so you go down the same old road of "I will say no more" !
Why is it so hard for some people to say re-baptising this person is wrong !!!
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Post by bubbles on Apr 3, 2015 4:10:03 GMT -5
Gods will for victims is that Jesus Christ heals and can heal them. He can heal their emotions and physical body. He came to set us free from bondage. Victims of abuse need to be set free from the chains of bondage the abuser bound them with. Probably word threats. Mind information. Gods will for perpetrators is clear. 'Better a millstone is hung around their kneck.' What abusers have done is wickedness. Whoever they are. Worker or not. I don't want to stand in the way of justice either. Not sure what justice would be though, outside of disallowing them in meetings and reporting them to the authorities. Do you think it is our job to make judgements about their salvation? Do you think that quote means that they should be executed? I thought it just meant they would be better off dead than to commit an offense. As far as justice goes. We are supposed to be law abiding citizens . When we break the law there are consequences for us. To pay the price.
As far as the church goes. We lean on scripture to guide us. Romans 1:31 "Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful." To me this fits the description. So they have broken covenant. Shown no mercy when those children cried out or begged them to stop. 2 Timothy 3:2 'For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.' (One 'without natural affection' is translated from one greek word. It means inhuman, unloving, unsociable. Or one who acts in ways that are against the social norm.) Matt 18:1-14 V 10 The word "offend" in the greek means has the idea of causing one to stumble, to cause a stumbling block or an impediment in the way upon which another may trip and fall. To entice to sin, to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey, to cause to fall away, to cause one displeasure at a thing, or to make indignant. This principle can be applied to many child abuse actions. We are required to judge the church. Leaders are required to judge things like whether a person is producing the fruit of repentance and the fruit of the holy spirit. In this case the leaders have a responsiblity towards god for oversight and protection of the rest of the flock. In other words no shepherd would put the sheep in danger. Executed? Are you referring to another comment I made the other day?. If so that was just me feeling angry at this whole mess. Not excecuted no. Oh I see what you meant. The lord says that the fear of the lord is the begining of wisdom. Personally I dont think we should be having anything to do with pedophiles. Ive had dealings with some. While writing this my thought was have they blasphemed the holy spirit? If so that is the only unforgivable sin. Which would mean they could no longer experience relationship with the godhead. Have an abundant life. Nor ever be forgiven again. That is a sobering thought. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 3, 2015 4:19:52 GMT -5
What you really mean Virgo is you are justifying something that is wrong ! You cannot or will not acknowledge that there is a double standard so you go down the same old road of "I will say no more" ! Why is it so hard for some people to say re-baptising this person is wrong !!! So what about the victims Nathan ? |
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Post by withlove on Apr 3, 2015 7:40:37 GMT -5
I don't want to stand in the way of justice either. Not sure what justice would be though, outside of disallowing them in meetings and reporting them to the authorities. Do you think it is our job to make judgements about their salvation? Do you think that quote means that they should be executed? I thought it just meant they would be better off dead than to commit an offense. As far as justice goes. We are supposed to be law abiding citizens . When we break the law there are consequences for us. To pay the price.
As far as the church goes. We lean on scripture to guide us. Romans 1:31 "Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful." To me this fits the description. So they have broken covenant. Shown no mercy when those children cried out or begged them to stop. 2 Timothy 3:2 'For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.' (One 'without natural affection' is translated from one greek word. It means inhuman, unloving, unsociable. Or one who acts in ways that are against the social norm.) Matt 18:1-14 V 10 The word "offend" in the greek means has the idea of causing one to stumble, to cause a stumbling block or an impediment in the way upon which another may trip and fall. To entice to sin, to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey, to cause to fall away, to cause one displeasure at a thing, or to make indignant. This principle can be applied to many child abuse actions. We are required to judge the church. Leaders are required to judge things like whether a person is producing the fruit of repentance and the fruit of the holy spirit. In this case the leaders have a responsiblity towards god for oversight and protection of the rest of the flock. In other words no shepherd would put the sheep in danger. Executed? Are you referring to another comment I made the other day?. If so that was just me feeling angry at this whole mess. Not excecuted no. Oh I see what you meant. The lord says that the fear of the lord is the begining of wisdom. Personally I dont think we should be having anything to do with pedophiles. Ive had dealings with some. While writing this my thought was have they blasphemed the holy spirit? If so that is the only unforgivable sin. Which would mean they could no longer experience relationship with the godhead. Have an abundant life. Nor ever be forgiven again. That is a sobering thought. Thanks for the reply and the verses. Re: execution...was just wondering if that's how you interpret what Jesus said about the millstone around the neck. Wasn't referring to anything else. Was just unclear on what you think God's will is for the church to do about it and what justice would be. I agree no shepherd would put sheep in danger. I'd also add that the presence of an old disabled abuser who was no longer a physical danger could be traumatic for past victims and that God wouldn't want that. Not allowing an abuser around anymore and putting out warnings to everyone would be appropriate, right? And cooperating with the law is important. Oh ok that would change things if it was blasphemy and a shepherd knew that it was. That's over my head... |
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Post by xna on Apr 3, 2015 7:48:16 GMT -5
It sounds more conservative than in the US. There are no such rules here, although it's mostly done by men. Women are just less likely to volunteer, perhaps because they weren't always encouraged to? The practices I recall; If "sister workers" were in meeting an no "brother workers" the sister workers would lead the meeting an pray for the emblems. Sister workers were the only women who lead or prayed over the emblems. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 3, 2015 10:34:09 GMT -5
As far as justice goes. We are supposed to be law abiding citizens . When we break the law there are consequences for us. To pay the price.
As far as the church goes. We lean on scripture to guide us. Romans 1:31 "Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful." To me this fits the description. So they have broken covenant. Shown no mercy when those children cried out or begged them to stop. 2 Timothy 3:2 'For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.' (One 'without natural affection' is translated from one greek word. It means inhuman, unloving, unsociable. Or one who acts in ways that are against the social norm.) Matt 18:1-14 V 10 The word "offend" in the greek means has the idea of causing one to stumble, to cause a stumbling block or an impediment in the way upon which another may trip and fall. To entice to sin, to cause a person to begin to distrust and desert one whom he ought to trust and obey, to cause to fall away, to cause one displeasure at a thing, or to make indignant. This principle can be applied to many child abuse actions. We are required to judge the church. Leaders are required to judge things like whether a person is producing the fruit of repentance and the fruit of the holy spirit. In this case the leaders have a responsiblity towards god for oversight and protection of the rest of the flock. In other words no shepherd would put the sheep in danger. Executed? Are you referring to another comment I made the other day?. If so that was just me feeling angry at this whole mess. Not excecuted no. Oh I see what you meant. The lord says that the fear of the lord is the begining of wisdom. Personally I dont think we should be having anything to do with pedophiles. Ive had dealings with some. While writing this my thought was have they blasphemed the holy spirit? If so that is the only unforgivable sin. Which would mean they could no longer experience relationship with the godhead. Have an abundant life. Nor ever be forgiven again. That is a sobering thought. Thanks for the reply and the verses. Re: execution...was just wondering if that's how you interpret what Jesus said about the millstone around the neck. Wasn't referring to anything else. Was just unclear on what you think God's will is for the church to do about it and what justice would be. I agree no shepherd would put sheep in danger. I'd also add that the presence of an old disabled abuser who was no longer a physical danger could be traumatic for past victims and that God wouldn't want that. Not allowing an abuser around anymore and putting out warnings to everyone would be appropriate, right? And cooperating with the law is important. Oh ok that would change things if it was blasphemy and a shepherd knew that it was. That's over my head... Sorry about that. When I was in church leadership I knew a pastor who had violated his children grandchildren and great grandchildren. It took a few yrs before he was convicted by the law. During that time his kids were crying on my shoulder needing someone to do something. It took the help of other leaders. It was a shocking expreince.i felt my hands were tied. So helpless. The kids who were young adults were relying on me. Eventually one of the older daughters reported him. He was very old. It had to come from the family. I would have been the accuser. The abused need to find the coursge to go to authoritys when this happens. I dont think they are ever too old. Also depends on the disability. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 11:03:24 GMT -5
When I was in the work I asked so and so sister/lady in the meetings to give thanks for the bread before we sing a hymn, give her time to collect her thoughts. God loves to hear our sisters in the faith to express their thanksgiving of the emblems. Most of the professing women are too shy, or don't feel it is their parts to give thanks for the bread or wine. The practices I recall; If "sister workers" were in meeting an no "brother workers" the sister workers would lead the meeting an pray for the emblems. Sister workers were the only women who lead or prayed over the emblems. Yes that's how it was in the past but because of dwindling attendances these days in some churches, sometimes women do give thanks for the emblems; sometime when a sister worker is present she asks others to give thanks for the emblems. So there is no longer a universal hard as fast rule pertaining to this matter. ps. When I was a student many years ago, we were told that a theory or practice only holds/stands up to scrutiny as long as there cannot be found one single example where they do not hold fast. Hence it is often said that: it might be so in theory but not in practice. |
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 11:51:43 GMT -5
Nathan, working with sex offenders it is very much stressed that offenders do not ask forgiveness from victims.
Offenders have asked enough from victims they cannot ask anything more. Really by asking the victim for forgiveness is just asking something more from the victim and placing the responsibility back onto the victim. Let's not put anything more on the victim.
Writing a letter of apology is fine but asking for forgiveness is something else. Let's not burden the victims with more.
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 12:06:09 GMT -5
I wonder how many times a sister worker and male worker were in the same fellowship meeting? Usually they were in completely different locations not working in the same location.
Also I did not think it right that a sister worker has more authority than the man of the house. Why should a worker have a greater place than someone in their own home. Could the elder still not take the meeting whether a worker is there or not. Why should a worker be treated differently. If a pastor 'visits' a home group I would guess he would not take over. He comes to join in not take over.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 12:29:34 GMT -5
Nathan, working with sex offenders it is very much stressed that offenders do not ask forgiveness from victims. Offenders have asked enough from victims they cannot ask anything more. Really by asking the victim for forgiveness is just asking something more from the victim and placing the responsibility back onto the victim. Let's not put anything more on the victim. Writing a letter of apology is fine but asking for forgiveness is something else. Let's not burden the victims with more. Forgiveness has to come from the victim too. In the Lord's Prayer Jesus gave us a example when we pray: "forgive us our trespasses as we fogive our trespassers." We must forgive that we may be forgiven. We must learn to forgive that we in turn may be forgiven for our own short comings. It must be a very difficult to do, forgive an abuser, and God is an understanding compassionate God, so no doubt He will make allowances for those who find it very difficult to forgive in such circumstances. |
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 12:32:48 GMT -5
It is not the responsibility of the victim to forgive the abuser. ....
and by the way says the offender "can I just ask one more thing of you. Can you forgive me? "
God is a just God, He knows the heart. To me forgiveness is about letting go and letting God. It might be saying God this is too big for me, I give it to you. It is nothing to do with the victim telling the offender they are forgiven.
It is wrong for the offender to ask that of the victim
It's time the offender took responsibility for their own actions instead of putting it back on the victim. The most destructive thing for a victim is to be told to or asked to forgive. Believe me I have worked with plenty. Victims and offenders
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 13:52:34 GMT -5
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 3, 2015 14:01:14 GMT -5
It is not the responsibility of the victim to forgive the abuser. .... and by the way says the offender "can I just ask one more thing of you. Can you forgive me? " God is a just God, He knows the heart. To me forgiveness is about letting go and letting God. It might be saying God this is too big for me, I give it to you. It is nothing to do with the victim telling the offender they are forgiven. I am not saying forgiveness is not healthy, I am saying it is wrong for the offender to ask that of the victim It's time the offender took responsibility for their own actions instead of putting it back on the victim. The most destructive thing for a victim is to be told to or asked to forgive. Believe me I have worked with plenty. Victims and offenders Mary, I hear what you are saying about asking for forgiveness but I think that apologizing would be a good step to take. Saying sorry for what has been done and cannot be undone. It is different from asking for an forgiveness. I would hope that an apology would be sincere. |
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 14:48:02 GMT -5
Yes and writing a letter of apology is part of therapy groups whether they send it or not but asking for forgiveness is not acceptable.
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Post by hberry on Apr 3, 2015 15:06:51 GMT -5
The practices I recall; If "sister workers" were in meeting an no "brother workers" the sister workers would lead the meeting an pray for the emblems. Sister workers were the only women who lead or prayed over the emblems. Yes that's how it was in the past but because of dwindling attendances these days in some churches, sometimes women do give thanks for the emblems; sometime when a sister worker is present she asks others to give thanks for the emblems. So there is no longer a universal hard as fast rule pertaining to this matter. ps. When I was a student many years ago, we were told that a theory or practice only holds/stands up to scrutiny as long as there cannot be found one single example where they do not hold fast. Hence it is often said that: it might be so in theory but not in practice. Perhaps it is a regional thing, but I gave thanks for the emblems many times....often because no one else would. Just silence as they hoped someone else would do it. The workers didn't seem to have a problem with it, and Walter P said that there was no reason a woman couldn't. Most didn't, but the workers would occasionally ask a woman to give thanks -- which was hard on the women who had never done so before. My Mom did on occasion too. But then, as my family took an ESV bible to meeting, what else could you expect?  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 15:18:55 GMT -5
Yes that's how it was in the past but because of dwindling attendances these days in some churches, sometimes women do give thanks for the emblems; sometime when a sister worker is present she asks others to give thanks for the emblems. So there is no longer a universal hard as fast rule pertaining to this matter. ps. When I was a student many years ago, we were told that a theory or practice only holds/stands up to scrutiny as long as there cannot be found one single example where they do not hold fast. Hence it is often said that: it might be so in theory but not in practice. Perhaps it is a regional thing, but I gave thanks for the emblems many times....often because no one else would. Just silence as they hoped someone else would do it. The workers didn't seem to have a problem with it, and Walter P said that there was no reason a woman couldn't. Most didn't, but the workers would occasionally ask a woman to give thanks -- which was hard on the women who had never done so before. My Mom did on occasion too. But then, as my family took an ESV bible to meeting, what else could you expect? Yes I noticed that there is a reluctance by men as well to give thanks for the emblems, our elder always give thanks for the bread on Sundays and he would often ask someone to give thanks for the cup and wine, and there's a long silence so most of the time I do it, occasionally his wife would do it. |
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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 18:05:44 GMT -5
I wonder how many victims have not come forward and have chosen to keep quiet. For every one that comes forward there are many more who do not. Wonder if Noel will acknowledge them. There are probably so many that he doesn't even remember their names. Do you think he will come out and say there are a lot more or only admit to those who have come out into the open?
I have no opinion on his re baptism.
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Post by xna on Apr 3, 2015 18:25:06 GMT -5
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Post by Greg on Apr 3, 2015 18:25:29 GMT -5
I wonder how many victims have not come forward and have chosen to keep quiet. For every one that comes forward there are many more who do not. Wonder if Noel will acknowledge them. There are probably so many that he doesn't even remember their names. Do you think he will come out and say there are a lot more or only admit to those who have come out into the open? I have no opinion on his re baptism. "I have no opinion on his re baptism." Yet that supposedly is what the thread was originally about. |
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Post by Greg on Apr 3, 2015 18:28:03 GMT -5
The most important thing is Noel has made his peace with God, and want to do what is right before him, and that next step is making it right with his victims. I hope and pray that the overseer, and workers will encourage Noel to make it right with his victims, and do whatever it takes to heal them also, so all who are involved can walk in the newness of life. "The most important thing is Noel has made his peace with God..." You do not know that. "...and want to do what is right before him..." You do not know that. "...and that next step is making it right with his victims." How is he to do that? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2015 18:31:50 GMT -5
I wonder how many victims have not come forward and have chosen to keep quiet. For every one that comes forward there are many more who do not. Wonder if Noel will acknowledge them. There are probably so many that he doesn't even remember their names. Do you think he will come out and say there are a lot more or only admit to those who have come out into the open? I have no opinion on his re baptism. In some jurisdictions if a person is charged with a particular crime, when it comes to his/ her trial and he/she has committed other known offences that are pending he/she can plead guilty to all the offences and ask the court to take those pending offences into consideration when sentencing is pronounced. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 3, 2015 20:28:33 GMT -5
"The most important thing is Noel has made his peace with God..." You do not know that. "...and want to do what is right before him..." You do not know that. "...and that next step is making it right with his victims." How is he to do that?
Well, Noel will find out ways to make right with his victims, that is one of the true sign for repentance.You seem to have inside information on Noel's intentions. |
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Post by Greg on Apr 3, 2015 20:48:12 GMT -5
I do not see this thread asking about our opinions on his re baptism, but people have given it anyway. The topic is much broader than yes he should no he shouldn't. I do not see you Greg, giving an opinion on his re baptism yet you say that is what the thread is about. My statement is do you think he will admit sexually abusing those who have not come forward, considering most victims do not come forward? Well, this is a discussion board, so I think the asking of others' opinions is pretty much implied. The subject or topic is "Noel Harvey ExWorker/Convicted Child Sex Offender rebaptised". Of course one could pick any of those words and express an opinion, story, fact, or what have you. The opening sentence is: "On Friday 20th March 2015, Noel Roy Harvey, ex 2x2 worker and convicted child sex offender, was quietly “re-baptised” by a senior 2x2 minister in Mudgee, New South Wales." I think the rebaptism was the original focus of the subject/topic and the opening post. Yet, again, anyone is free within the limits of the whims and concerns of admin to post what they want in response. Moving on, the rebaptism seems out of place for the friends and workers. I have no idea if he will admit to anything. |
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Post by Greg on Apr 3, 2015 20:48:59 GMT -5
"The most important thing is Noel has made his peace with God..." You do not know that. "...and want to do what is right before him..." You do not know that. "...and that next step is making it right with his victims." How is he to do that?
Well, Noel will find out ways to make right with his victims, that is one of the true sign for repentance.You do not know any of that, either. |
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