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Post by Ross.Bowden on Mar 31, 2015 20:47:52 GMT -5
On Friday 20th March 2015, Noel Roy Harvey, ex 2x2 worker and convicted child sex offender, was quietly “re-baptised” by a senior 2x2 minister in Mudgee, New South Wales. Harvey, who is now 70 was a minister in a religious sect sometimes called “The Truth”, The Secret Sect, Two by Two’s, or Christian Conventions of NSW during the 1970’s and early 1980’s. He left the ministry in 1982 and married a local Mudgee woman who was a member of the sect in 1985. In 2003, he faced 19 child sex offences relating to the period 1977 to 1995 in the New South Wales districts of Wagga Wagga, Mudgee, Coolatai, Riverina, Maclean and Casino. He was convicted for these child sex offences, which related to children aged between 5 and 14 years old, and was gaoled. The child sex offences covered the period that Noel Harvey was in the work and subsequently married. Noel Harvey continues to live with his wife in Mudgee and while not permitted to attend local sect fellowship meetings (presumably because he is on the child sex offender’s register) he has always been officially listed, along with his wife, in the NSW address book as a member of the Christian based sect. Most of Mr Harvey’s victims are no longer members of the sect. However, current members say that Mr Harvey has not apologised to all the victims for the crimes he has committed against them. As word emerges of Mr Harvey’s recent “rebaptism” in the sect, members and former members are extremely angry that Mr Harvey could be re-instated by the sect when he has not expressed complete remorse to all his victims. His rebaptism comes at a time when religious and other institutions, including the sect to which Mr Harvey belongs, are under the spotlight by the Federal Government’s Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is second in charge in NSW and who has close links to the elder. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”. wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/noelharvey.pdf |
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Post by xna on Mar 31, 2015 21:02:53 GMT -5
On Friday 20th March 2015, Noel Roy Harvey, ex 2x2 worker and convicted child sex offender, was quietly “re-baptised” by a senior 2x2 minister in Mudgee, New South Wales. Harvey, who is now 70 was a minister in a religious sect sometimes called “The Truth”, The Secret Sect, Two by Two’s, or Christian Conventions of NSW during the 1970’s and early 1980’s. He left the ministry in 1982 and married a local Mudgee woman who was a member of the sect in 1985. In 2003, he faced 19 child sex offences relating to the period 1977 to 1995 in the New South Wales districts of Wagga Wagga, Mudgee, Coolatai, Riverina, Maclean and Casino. He was convicted for these child sex offences, which related to children aged between 5 and 14 years old, and was gaoled. The child sex offences covered the period that Noel Harvey was in the work and subsequently married. Noel Harvey continues to live with his wife in Mudgee and while not permitted to attend local sect fellowship meetings (presumably because he is on the child sex offender’s register) he has always been officially listed, along with his wife, in the NSW address book as a member of the Christian based sect. Most of Mr Harvey’s victims are no longer members of the sect. However, current members say that Mr Harvey has not apologised to all the victims for the crimes he has committed against them. As word emerges of Mr Harvey’s recent “rebaptism” in the sect, members and former members are extremely angry that Mr Harvey could be re-instated by the sect when he has not expressed complete remorse to all his victims. His rebaptism comes at a time when religious and other institutions, including the sect to which Mr Harvey belongs, are under the spotlight by the Federal Government’s Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, Stan Xavier, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is the deputy leader of the sect in NSW and who has close links to Mr Xavier. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”. wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/noelharvey.pdfI guess the Holy Ghost must have been missing during his first baptism? Acts 19 |
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Post by fred on Mar 31, 2015 21:34:02 GMT -5
On Friday 20th March 2015, Noel Roy Harvey, ex 2x2 worker and convicted child sex offender, was quietly “re-baptised” by a senior 2x2 minister in Mudgee, New South Wales. Harvey, who is now 70 was a minister in a religious sect sometimes called “The Truth”, The Secret Sect, Two by Two’s, or Christian Conventions of NSW during the 1970’s and early 1980’s. He left the ministry in 1982 and married a local Mudgee woman who was a member of the sect in 1985. In 2003, he faced 19 child sex offences relating to the period 1977 to 1995 in the New South Wales districts of Wagga Wagga, Mudgee, Coolatai, Riverina, Maclean and Casino. He was convicted for these child sex offences, which related to children aged between 5 and 14 years old, and was gaoled. The child sex offences covered the period that Noel Harvey was in the work and subsequently married. Noel Harvey continues to live with his wife in Mudgee and while not permitted to attend local sect fellowship meetings (presumably because he is on the child sex offender’s register) he has always been officially listed, along with his wife, in the NSW address book as a member of the Christian based sect. Most of Mr Harvey’s victims are no longer members of the sect. However, current members say that Mr Harvey has not apologised to all the victims for the crimes he has committed against them. As word emerges of Mr Harvey’s recent “rebaptism” in the sect, members and former members are extremely angry that Mr Harvey could be re-instated by the sect when he has not expressed complete remorse to all his victims. His rebaptism comes at a time when religious and other institutions, including the sect to which Mr Harvey belongs, are under the spotlight by the Federal Government’s Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, Stan Xavier, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is the deputy leader of the sect in NSW and who has close links to Mr Xavier. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”. wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/noelharvey.pdfAccording to my sources Mr Harvey is suffering from a degenerative illness ( Parkinson's or Alzheimers) and appears older than 70. ( which is quite young really  ) Such claims could also be a cover for his non-attendance. It will be interesting to see if he is welcomed back into fellowship meetings. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Mar 31, 2015 21:34:59 GMT -5
I feel for his victims, just shows what happens if you know the right people doesn't it ! It is so wrong !
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Post by whyisitso on Mar 31, 2015 22:12:05 GMT -5
On Friday 20th March 2015, Noel Roy Harvey, ex 2x2 worker and convicted child sex offender, was quietly “re-baptised” by a senior 2x2 minister in Mudgee, New South Wales. Harvey, who is now 70 was a minister in a religious sect sometimes called “The Truth”, The Secret Sect, Two by Two’s, or Christian Conventions of NSW during the 1970’s and early 1980’s. He left the ministry in 1982 and married a local Mudgee woman who was a member of the sect in 1985. In 2003, he faced 19 child sex offences relating to the period 1977 to 1995 in the New South Wales districts of Wagga Wagga, Mudgee, Coolatai, Riverina, Maclean and Casino. He was convicted for these child sex offences, which related to children aged between 5 and 14 years old, and was gaoled. The child sex offences covered the period that Noel Harvey was in the work and subsequently married. Noel Harvey continues to live with his wife in Mudgee and while not permitted to attend local sect fellowship meetings (presumably because he is on the child sex offender’s register) he has always been officially listed, along with his wife, in the NSW address book as a member of the Christian based sect. Most of Mr Harvey’s victims are no longer members of the sect. However, current members say that Mr Harvey has not apologised to all the victims for the crimes he has committed against them. As word emerges of Mr Harvey’s recent “rebaptism” in the sect, members and former members are extremely angry that Mr Harvey could be re-instated by the sect when he has not expressed complete remorse to all his victims. His rebaptism comes at a time when religious and other institutions, including the sect to which Mr Harvey belongs, are under the spotlight by the Federal Government’s Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, Stan Xavier, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is the deputy leader of the sect in NSW and who has close links to Mr Xavier. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”. wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/noelharvey.pdfOh wow. My stomach just flipped. I really feel for the victims of this pedophile. How could this be done without full & formal apology to all his victims. |
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Post by Ross.Bowden on Mar 31, 2015 22:31:39 GMT -5
I feel for his victims, just shows what happens if you know the right people doesn't it ! It is so wrong ! It is also ineffective and un-Biblical. Mr Harvey's relationship with God is a personal matter between him and God and not something that I could or would comment on. However, in relation to rebaptism (even though it is sometimes requested by individuals) it is wrong and ineffective because it cannot be done! Let me explain. Baptism is the initiation of the Christian person. It is his or her inclusion in the salvation history of God - his or her inclusion into the church - the body of Christ. It is the person's immersion into the death and resurrection of Christ - it means beginning. And it cannot be done again. It is by definition impossible to have more than one rite of initiation. You can't seek adoption when you are already adopted. As some writers have said "Baptism is ever to be remembered but never to be repeated". "Baptism now saves us" - "We were buried with Christ by baptism..." - "as many of you as were baptised into Christ have put on Christ" - "you were born again by water and the Spirit" says God in the NT. Baptism is effective but is not unconditionally effective. The conditions are repentance and faith. When those have not been present a person does not need baptism all over again. The person needs to repent and believe!
There is an instructive example in Acts 8. The Samaritans had been baptised at the preaching of Philip. For some reason - we are not told why - this baptism did not do them any good. There was no evidence of the Holy Spirit in their lives. Two of the Apostles came to Samaria from Jerusalem. They laid hands on them and prayed for them, and the Spirit's work became visible in their lives. What they did not do was rebaptise them. They couldn't repeat what had already been done. A person may feel that their infant baptism was something they did not understand. This does not invalidate it, any more that it did for the Philippian gaoler who presumably understood very little at the time of his baptism. Baptism is not a mark of our understanding, but of the covenant between a gracious God and us. Those who rebaptise either do not understand this covenant, or they simply choose, in their own sinfulness, to ignore it because they simply believe that they are the only ones on earth who can bring a person into God's Kingdom - or possibly both of these reasons. This appears to be the thinking of the 2x2 leadership (as outlined in the tract handed out by workers to those being baptised). Baptism is an instrument of God - not of man. When a minister dictates when a person is baptised, what external things they have to deal with before they are baptised and refuses to baptise a person immediately when they turn to Christ clearly has no idea what baptism is about as detailed in the Bible. They have taken something that is the Lord's instrument into their own hands and into their own authority. Based on the Bible, Mr Saunders should simply have said to Mr Harvey - you do not need to be re-baptised. You simply need to repent (be sorry, apologise to victims etc) and believe in Christ as your Saviour. |
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Post by bubbles on Mar 31, 2015 23:02:30 GMT -5
I feel for his victims, just shows what happens if you know the right people doesn't it ! It is so wrong ! Full membership?? WOW. I feel sick. |
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Post by xna on Mar 31, 2015 23:38:49 GMT -5
I feel for his victims, just shows what happens if you know the right people doesn't it ! It is so wrong ! It is the person's immersion into the death and resurrection of Christ - it means beginning. And it cannot be done again. I was baptized twice, 2nd time by the 2x2. Acts 19 is a 2nd baptism Others that re-baptize en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebaptism |
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Post by fred on Apr 1, 2015 0:31:31 GMT -5
"Professing is when somebody accepts the workers, baptism is when the workers accept that person."
While the workers would not accept this proposition, it is essentially how they operate.
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Post by kittens on Apr 1, 2015 0:39:49 GMT -5
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Post by xna on Apr 1, 2015 0:59:37 GMT -5
Yes, there are some that re-baptise including the 2x2's. In Acts 19, the folk didn't know the HS so Paul baptised them in the name of Jesus. Interestingly, the 2nd baptism was done and nothing really happened. However, when the apostles laid their hands on the 12 (same as Acts 8) they received the Holy Spirit. I think it backs up that re-baptism is not necessary. The necessary thing is that a person receives the Holy Spirit - in both cases the laying on of hands achieved this. The part on Acts 19 "When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied." This was the verse the workers used to explain you may now give your testimony in meeting since you are now baptized by us. Also used as the reason I needed to be rebaptized was the worldly preachers were not sent by God and so they did not have the holy spirt like you read there. PS: I never did speak in tounges and the worker skipped over that explanation. |
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Post by xna on Apr 1, 2015 1:04:40 GMT -5
The part on Acts 19 "When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied." This was the verse the workers used to explain you may now give your testimony in meeting since you are now baptized by us. Also used as the reason I needed to be rebaptized was the worldly preachers were not sent by God and so they did not have the holy spirt like you read there. PS: I never did speak in tounges and the worker skipped over that explanation. I bet they skipped over that part Yes, I can understand their logic for re-baptising into an exclusive group - hard to understand the logic for re-baptising someone they baptised in the first place and who spent years as a worker... I agree. |
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Post by whyisitso on Apr 1, 2015 2:56:35 GMT -5
He probably should just divorce his wife now and go back into the work... Of course he can't be married in the work so that's the only real solution.
Then he'd have the power to lay down all those laws/bans to people that have married outside or whatever other things people to get bans..... the divorced & remarried too.
Bert, Beeeeeert, where are you to stick up for your fellow brothers? Oh, and Review?
Where have they gone?
Come help us all make sense of this idiocy!!
Shouldn't this pathetic excuse for a man at the very least have apologized in person and in writing to his victims???
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 3:07:34 GMT -5
On Friday 20th March 2015, Noel Roy Harvey, ex 2x2 worker and convicted child sex offender, was quietly “re-baptised” by a senior 2x2 minister in Mudgee, New South Wales. Harvey, who is now 70 was a minister in a religious sect sometimes called “The Truth”, The Secret Sect, Two by Two’s, or Christian Conventions of NSW during the 1970’s and early 1980’s. He left the ministry in 1982 and married a local Mudgee woman who was a member of the sect in 1985. In 2003, he faced 19 child sex offences relating to the period 1977 to 1995 in the New South Wales districts of Wagga Wagga, Mudgee, Coolatai, Riverina, Maclean and Casino. He was convicted for these child sex offences, which related to children aged between 5 and 14 years old, and was gaoled. The child sex offences covered the period that Noel Harvey was in the work and subsequently married. Noel Harvey continues to live with his wife in Mudgee and while not permitted to attend local sect fellowship meetings (presumably because he is on the child sex offender’s register) he has always been officially listed, along with his wife, in the NSW address book as a member of the Christian based sect. Most of Mr Harvey’s victims are no longer members of the sect. However, current members say that Mr Harvey has not apologised to all the victims for the crimes he has committed against them. As word emerges of Mr Harvey’s recent “rebaptism” in the sect, members and former members are extremely angry that Mr Harvey could be re-instated by the sect when he has not expressed complete remorse to all his victims. His rebaptism comes at a time when religious and other institutions, including the sect to which Mr Harvey belongs, are under the spotlight by the Federal Government’s Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, Stan Xavier, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is the deputy leader of the sect in NSW and who has close links to Mr Xavier. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”. wingsfortruth.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/noelharvey.pdfThat is unbelievable! |
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Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2015 4:55:32 GMT -5
"Professing is when somebody accepts the workers, baptism is when the workers accept that person." While the workers would not accept this proposition, it is essentially how they operate. I know at least one worker who quoted those exact words. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 1, 2015 5:00:49 GMT -5
A person may feel that their infant baptism was something they did not understand. This does not invalidate it, any more that it did for the Philippian gaoler who presumably understood very little at the time of his baptism. What is there to understand, more than repentance and a purpose to walk in newness of life? |
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 5:43:37 GMT -5
He probably should just divorce his wife now and go back into the work... Of course he can't be married in the work so that's the only real solution. Then he'd have the power to lay down all those laws/bans to people that have married outside or whatever other things people to get bans..... the divorced & remarried too. Bert, Beeeeeert, where are you to stick up for your fellow brothers? Oh, and Review? Where have they gone? Come help us all make sense of this idiocy!! Shouldn't this pathetic excuse for a man at the very least have apologized in person and in writing to his victims???
In my opinion, he should have asked God for forgiveness first, then write a letter of an apology, before the re-baptism taken place.... This would heal him and the victims. showing Fruits of repentance before baptism means buried the past, and raise in the newness of life.
Well, it is NOT too late for this ex-worker to write a letter of apology to his victims, for all the traumatic, horrific memories, he had caused in their lives. It will be a great/heavy burden lift off his shoulders, and he will go into heaven with a clear conscience.
Um i don't know about that, will he be around children again? Really it's not up to the church to forgive him but the people he's abused to forgive him wouldn't you think? How can they deal with all that abuse they've suffered as a child, if they have to face him in the community and place of worship? I feel the feelings of the victims should come first. And yes help him, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable with a man who has abused little children around my family! Would you? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 8:25:55 GMT -5
A few questions :
1. Has he been convicted for his crime?
2. Has he served a sentence as a punishment for his crime?
3. Has he repented for his crime.?
4 . Does anyone know for certain that he has not apologised to the victim and family for his crime?
If the answers to all these questions are in the affirmative and he has made peace with God, why should he not be re-baptised, no one should be beyond redemption except for the unforgivable sin.
Saul/ Paul had a very bad record too, but look how he turned out in the end.
God will judge him righteously in the end so final judgment should be left to God.
I am not saying that people involved should ever trust him again, in the circumstances I probably won't myself, but I believe that he still has some rights to religeous assembly in the sight of God who will administer the final judgment. God is a forgiving and compassionate God even to sinners.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 8:52:24 GMT -5
No victim is going to have healing just because someone says sorry, or is held accountable in the eyes of the law. Healing come after you work though what has happen to you and you have support from those around you. Those that have committed these horrid acts also have a soul before God. The workers and friends should encourage them to do what ever they need to do to make things right for those they have victimized. After that, then they can be accepted back into the "TRUTH". The workers and friends do no favors for the souls of these abusers, if they do not encourage them to make things right on this side of the grave. As workers they are not upholding the office of a servant of God, by not looking out for the souls of others.
They should also offer help in healing for the victims, and be concerned for their soul. Not tell them to heal in silence like I was told by a worker. The shows how uncaring they are for the souls of their fellow men.
My question to all workers is this; why did you become a worker if you do not care for the souls of ALL man/women?
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Post by ellie on Apr 1, 2015 8:58:12 GMT -5
Why should he not be re-baptised, Just one answer for now. IMO he should not have been re-baptised because such an action has the potential to add to the pain and suffering of the victims. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 11:38:31 GMT -5
Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, Stan Xavier, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is the deputy leader of the sect in NSW and who has close links to Mr Xavier. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”.
((((((((
Ah the influence of powerful elders!!!!!!!
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Post by bubbles on Apr 1, 2015 11:46:54 GMT -5
I would imagine for any victim it would be like salt rubbed into a wound. Also cause shocking confusion in their minds re: the lord and the kingdom of god. IMO the overseer has been totally irresponsible. Its like he approves the guys actions. There is no need biblically to rebaptise. (It nullifies the power of the first baptism. Spiritually/biblically it takes true repentance where the person then produces the fruit of repentance. Even then the perpetrators life would not be easy. That guy should be locked up and if and when let out with no hands or genitals. True justice would be for him to be handed over to the mothers of the victims. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 1, 2015 11:51:02 GMT -5
Members of the sect have reported that a prominent Sydney elder of the sect, Stan Xavier, pushed for Mr Harvey to be “re-baptised” back into full membership of the sect. The baptism was conducted in Mudgee by senior minister David Saunders, who is the deputy leader of the sect in NSW and who has close links to Mr Xavier. According to members, the leader of the sect in NSW, Clyde Mackay, apparently gave the re-baptism his blessing and according to one member of the group, asked David Saunders to “just do it”. (((((((( Ah the influence of powerful elders!!!!!!!They should ALL be stood down!! They are not true elders and oversight. They are supposed to protect NOT place kids at risk. My first thought when I read this was uh oh are they also pedophiles? |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 1, 2015 12:01:15 GMT -5
Thanks for letting us know Ross. It makes me sick when others have been refused baptism because they had a fringe cut etc etc etc. I'm just curious as to why Stan Xavier is getting involved when he has daughters and granddaughters of his own who are in the same age group of Noel Harvey's victims. I'm also surprised that David Saunders participated when he makes such a song and dance about supporting the victims and saying something should be done but his hands are tied. Maybe his love of money and prestige (his two main reasons for cosying up to families like the Xaviers) overrides his sense of justice. Clyde Mackay makes it absolutely clear that he is on the side of all pedophiles so at least he is running true to form. This whole topic makes my blood boil I knew a number of people who were rebaptised in NZ. Back then I didnt understand about the power of baptism. I do know how hurt and confused it left those that were told they needed to be rebaptised again. One person was baptised 3 times all up. I dont know any of these people. Probably just as well. It is utterly disgusting to hear how workers and overseers dont take a stand against this issue. Those who do are few and far between. Rare it whould be the opposite. |
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 12:06:14 GMT -5
1) Um i don't know about that, will he be around children again? Really it's not up to the church to forgive him but the people he's abused to forgive him wouldn't you think? Jesus teaches in Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. They should forgive this ex-worker without him as them forgiveness.2) How can they deal with all that abuse they've suffered as a child, if they have to face him in the community and place of worship? I feel the feelings of the victims should come first. And yes help him, but I don't think I'd feel comfortable with a man who has abused little children around my family! Would you? ~~ When I was in the work, We had a professing pedophile/he had served his time in prison... He attended in our Sunday fellowship and gospel meetings, we just warned the friends with the children in our meetings of his past so they could watch their children around him. However, he was welcome to attend the meetings. He has repented and served his time, if God has forgiven him who are we to judge him? We can keep a close eyes on him.
Paul wrote about a man who had sexual relationship with his step mother. At first Paul wrote to the believers to separate themselves from him and put him out of the church until he had repented. After this man had repented Paul encouraged the believers in the fellowship to welcome him back with open arms.
I Cor. 2: 7-11 so that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. Therefore I beseech you that you would confirm your love toward him. For to this end also did I write, that I might have proof from you, whether ye be obedient in all things. To whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also; for if I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it, I forgave it for your sakes in the person of Christ, lest Satan should get an advantage over us. For we are not ignorant of his devices.
Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. They should forgive this ex-worker without him as them forgiveness.[/quote] Your saying "they"should forgive this man do you mean the church? but really isn't it up to the abused people to forgive him not others? For if YOU forgive men their trespasses. That's the actual abused person that needs to forgive first And again below, To whom ye forgive anything, I forgive also; for if I forgave anything, to whom I forgave it, I forgave it for your sakes in the person of Christ,[/font] lest Satan should get an advantage over us. For we are not ignorant of his devices. [/quote ] Again the person who had suffered had to forgive first If he repents then that's between him and God. But the victims and safety of the children should come first. According to the original post he's convicted and one child is only 5 years old! If that's true then he should not be in the company of children again. I was physically and mentally abused as an adult, and I've forgiven him, but I still wouldn't want to be around him. This happened to children, it must have been horrific for them! As a mother and grandmother I don't understand how it is ok for a convicted pedophile to be near children. I don't understand this train of thought. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2015 12:11:20 GMT -5
I would imagine for any victim it would be like salt rubbed into a wound. Also cause shocking confusion in their minds re: the lord and the kingdom of god. IMO the overseer has been totally irresponsible. Its like he approves the guys actions. There is no need biblically to rebaptise. (It nullifies the power of the first baptism. Spiritually/biblically it takes true repentance where the person then produces the fruit of repentance. Even then the perpetrators life would not be easy. That guy should be locked up and if and when let out with no hands or genitals. True justice would be for him to be handed over to the mothers of the victims. wooooooo, wouldn't such punishment and actions be considered a bit barbaric in a Christian civilised society? That would be on par with some of the punishments meted out in the Muslem communities, like chopping hands off, chopping heads off, stoning to death for insulting the prophet etc. etc. punishments that Christians condemn. |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 1, 2015 12:13:59 GMT -5
I would imagine for any victim it would be like salt rubbed into a wound. Also cause shocking confusion in their minds re: the lord and the kingdom of god. IMO the overseer has been totally irresponsible. Its like he approves the guys actions. There is no need biblically to rebaptise. (It nullifies the power of the first baptism. Spiritually/biblically it takes true repentance where the person then produces the fruit of repentance. Even then the perpetrators life would not be easy. That guy should be locked up and if and when let out with no hands or genitals. True justice would be for him to be handed over to the mothers of the victims. wooooooo, wouldn't such punishment and actions be considered a bit barbaric in a Christian civilised society? That would be on par with some of the punishments meted out in the Muslem communities, like chopping hands off, chopping heads off, stoning to death for insulting the prophet etc. etc. punishments that Christians condemn. Yes of course. Im making a point. I know too many victims. Im sick of the complacancey. People doing nothing. |
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Post by maryhig on Apr 1, 2015 12:36:37 GMT -5
Matthew 6:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. They should forgive this ex-worker without him as them forgiveness. 1) Your saying "they"should forgive this man do you mean the church? ~~ Yes, the church the believers in Christ.2) but really isn't it up to the abused people to forgive him not others? For if YOU forgive men their trespasses. That's the actual abused person that needs to forgive first. ~~ Jesus teaches his disciples/been sexually abused to Forgive men their trespasses... The abusers need to repent of their sins before God and making things right with the abusers. Abusers need God to forgive him, the abusers need to be forgiven by the victims. The victims need to forgive the abusers. ALL of us are sinners before God. God has forgiven us of our sins so we need to forgive each others for Christ's sake.3) Again the person who had suffered had to forgive first. If he repents then that's between him and God. But the victims and safety of the children should come first. According to the original post he's convicted and one child is only 5 years old! If that's true then he should not be in the company of children again. I was physically and mentally abused as an adult, and I've forgiven him, but I still wouldn't want to be around him. This happened to children, it must have been horrific for them! As a mother and grandmother I don't understand how it is ok for a convicted pedophile to be near children. I don't understand this train of thought. ~~ We can monitor this ex-worker movement and report to the police when he makes a wrong move toward any child. According to the Law in USA after the pedophile had serve his jail sentence he is freely to be around the children and live a normal life.Blimey Nathan, I would have to think of the children and abused before the abuser. I'm not saying treat them bad. But no they shouldn't be around children This is way out of my comfort zone! |
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