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Post by Mary on Apr 3, 2015 20:57:15 GMT -5
Re baptism is not so out of place in the friends and workers church. Others have talked about it on here.
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Post by Greg on Apr 3, 2015 21:00:16 GMT -5
Re baptism is not so out of place in the friends and workers church. Others have talked about it on here. I must have missed that. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 3, 2015 22:00:13 GMT -5
The most important thing is Noel has made his peace with God, and want to do what is right before him, and that next step is making it right with his victims. I hope and pray that the overseer, and workers will encourage Noel to make it right with his victims, and do whatever it takes to heal them also, so all who are involved can walk in the newness of life. Nathan, the workers should have encouraged him to make it right with his victims BEFORE he was re-baptised ! Not the other way around ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 3, 2015 22:02:53 GMT -5
You do not know any of that, either. Nathan, do you know Noel personally? Do you know his victims personally? Or are you once again making statements about things you hope will happen !! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 3, 2015 23:19:34 GMT -5
Nathan, do you know Noel personally?
Nope!Do you know his victims personally? Nope!Or are you once again making statements about things you hope will happen !! From reading about Noel recent situation, I see some fruits of repentance= rebaptized... That is a good sign... So I hope and pray that he will go one step further by expressing his apology to his victims so they too can be healed. If Noel truly has repented, God will give him the power to do what is right with his victims.Well to clarify, I know Noel personally also know some of his victims personally. If he is truly repentant why not at the very least apologise to his victims BEFORE wanting to be re-baptised ? Because it has all been done in secret how is that showing repentance? Why not tell his victims & the church that he wanted to be re-baptised instead of doing it in secret? What is the point of him being re-baptised anyway ? He cannot go to meetings or conventions. Once again Nathan I think you have stated something that you hope may happen without really knowing the full story ! Also it comes across as you are more concern about Noel than the victims. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 4, 2015 4:02:31 GMT -5
Well to clarify, I know Noel personally also know some of his victims personally. If he is truly repentant why not at the very least apologise to his victims BEFORE wanting to be re-baptised ? Because it has all been done in secret how is that showing repentance? Why not tell his victims & the church that he wanted to be re-baptised instead of doing it in secret? What is the point of him being re-baptised anyway ? He cannot go to meetings or conventions. Once again Nathan I think you have stated something that you hope may happen without really knowing the full story ! Also it comes across as you are more concern about Noel than the victims. Our goal should be to stop letting CSA happen within the "Way" or at the very least educate people that when it happens it is reported to the authorities. As I said before if this had been reported in the 70's when it was happening instead of being brushed under the mat it would have saved a lot of people. Here we are in 2015 and have things really changed that much ? Workers are secretly re-baptising abusers, so what have they learnt ? |
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Post by Greg on Apr 4, 2015 10:57:20 GMT -5
Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest and sent the workers and the friends to jail/prison for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago. Which overseer and which senior worker went to jail/prison for not reporting CSA? |
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Post by snow on Apr 4, 2015 11:34:34 GMT -5
Just a thought I'd like people to think about. Survivors of CSA or any other sexual assault are survivors, and to be labelled victims by everyone is to forget this fact. I see so many here calling them victims. I personally am a survivor not a victim and I know from working in the Woman's Sexual Assault center and the Distress Line, that many other survivors don't like being labelled victims either. If we stay in the 'I'm a victim' mentality we can't heal. We must view ourselves as empowered and survivors. It's a very small but powerful shift in mindset.
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Post by Greg on Apr 4, 2015 18:25:20 GMT -5
Which overseer and which senior worker went to jail/prison for not reporting CSA?
Date: July 28, 2013 Dear friends and workers: I have some rather unpleasant news to share. My co - worker in 2006 molested a boy. He was immediately dismissed from the work, as per the parents request. Morally and ethically we thought we did the right thing, it wasn't until much later that we found out that we, as ministers were mandated reporters.In march of 2009, I was called into the state police post for an interview concerning the situation. I went in and spoke freely without any fear, again thinking I was doing the right thing. Nothing was said concerning my obligations as a reporter and I wasn't arrested on the spot. In July of 2012, our overseer, Jerome Frandle was arrested and charged with failure to report. It was later dismissed due to lack of evidence. The case was opened again this year and in May, Jerome pleaded no contest and was sentenced with 100 hours of community service, a $200 fine, and 4 days in jail. However, instead of jail he was able to apply for the weekend alternative program. That means he would go out and work with the inmates in the community, instead of sitting in jail. On July 22, I was convicted on the same charges. I also pleaded no contest and was given the same sentence. I have completed 20 hours of my community service. Today was also my second day out with the inmates. To make matters worse, I hurt my right arm this morning, trying to lift too much. Tomorrow I will be seeing another Doctor and will find out how that will all play out. I'll keep you posted. All for now. Bill I am aware of that. Those two people did not serve time in jail/prison. You wrote that two workers served time in jail/prison. Which two are those? |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 4, 2015 18:52:58 GMT -5
You know one of the things that really ticks me off about this while thing... This focus on what he did being "sin".
The example of a guy playing up with his step mother or mother in law or whatever in one of Paul's letters was used to support the sin of sexual immorality. I'm guessing that was between consenting adults, yeah?
Noel has committed CRIMES against innocent kids.
Now I guess you can rationalise crime as being sin as it breaches some moral code, and yeah I get he has served the sentence imposed by the criminal justice system but for goodness sake stop treating his CRIMES as mere sins... Ok, rant over, I'll go have a cup of tea or something
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 4, 2015 20:01:49 GMT -5
You know one of the things that really ticks me off about this while thing... This focus on what he did being "sin". The example of a guy playing up with his step mother or mother in law or whatever in one of Paul's Peters was used to support the sin of sexual immorality. I'm guessing that was between consenting adults, yeah? Noel has committed CRIMES against innocent kids. Now I guess you can rationalise crime as being sin as it breaches some moral code, and yeah I get he has served the sentence imposed by the criminal justice system but for goodness sake stop treating his CRIMES as mere sins... Ok, rant over, I'll go have a cup of tea or something Exactly he committed Crimes against innocent children, he didn't just sin ! |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 4, 2015 20:07:25 GMT -5
Our goal should be to stop letting CSA happen within the "Way" or at the very least educate people that when it happens it is reported to the authorities. As I said before if this had been reported in the 70's when it was happening instead of being brushed under the mat it would have saved a lot of people. Here we are in 2015 and have things really changed that much ? Workers are secretly re-baptising abusers, so what have they learnt ?
Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest and sent the workers and the friends to jail/prison for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago.
What is the point of being re-baptised in secret Nathan ? If he wants to be right with God apologise to his survivors (Thank you for your reminder Snow) first, then if he wants to be re-baptised do it publicly not in secret. |
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Post by Greg on Apr 4, 2015 21:47:33 GMT -5
I am aware of that. Those two people did not serve time in jail/prison. You wrote that two workers served time in jail/prison. Which two are those? But you wrote: "Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest and sent the workers and the friends to jail/prison for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago." The point is facts, NathanB. Fact is that they did not serve time in jail/prison. So, more accurate would be "Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest the workers and the friends and have them do community service for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago." |
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 4, 2015 22:24:36 GMT -5
My hope is for all to get healed... the Victims and abusers.... That should be our hope and goal and NOT try to get them fight against each others. Our goal should be to stop letting CSA happen within the "Way" or at the very least educate people that when it happens it is reported to the authorities. As I said before if this had been reported in the 70's when it was happening instead of being brushed under the mat it would have saved a lot of people. Here we are in 2015 and have things really changed that much ? Workers are secretly re-baptising abusers, so what have they learnt ?
It isn't a war! It is about seeing criminals paying for their crimes!
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 4, 2015 22:25:23 GMT -5
Are you saying the abusers can't be re-baptized who had served his sentenced, and want to be right with God? Let us not playing God now, please. Things are changing in USA people must report CSA to the authority or they will go to jail that is including the workers and the friends.
Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest and sent the workers and the friends to jail/prison for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago.
What is the point of being re-baptised in secret Nathan ? If he wants to be right with God apologise to his survivors (Thank you for your reminder Snow) first, then if he wants to be re-baptised do it publicly not in secret. There is a very obvious reason why it was done in secret and none of the victims were invited. They would have probably held the b...... down until he stopped blowing bubbles. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 4, 2015 23:29:43 GMT -5
What is the point of being re-baptised in secret Nathan ? If he wants to be right with God apologise to his survivors (Thank you for your reminder Snow) first, then if he wants to be re-baptised do it publicly not in secret.
What do you mean rebaptised Noel in secret?It was done in secret Nathan, it wasn't a normal baptism. |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 5, 2015 0:25:53 GMT -5
Nominated for post of the week What is the point of being re-baptised in secret Nathan ? If he wants to be right with God apologise to his survivors (Thank you for your reminder Snow) first, then if he wants to be re-baptised do it publicly not in secret. There is a very obvious reason why it was done in secret and none of the victims were invited. They would have probably held the b...... down until he stopped blowing bubbles. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 5, 2015 2:50:27 GMT -5
It was done in secret Nathan, it wasn't a normal baptism. I mean exactly that Nathan, it was done with selected people there. The Church wasn't invited as far as I know. Normally when there is a baptism it is announced that on such & such a day there will be a baptism. Mr Mackay won't want people to know Noel has been re-baptised because they know that he has not apologised to his survivors, also that there will be a lot of angry people. People are denied baptism for stupid reasons like their hair being cut (women) yet here we have a man that has abused children being re-baptised. Do you understand now what I mean  ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 5, 2015 3:46:40 GMT -5
I mean exactly that Nathan, it was done with selected people there. The Church wasn't invited as far as I know. Normally when there is a baptism it is announced that on such & such a day there will be a baptism. Mr Mackay won't want people to know Noel has been re-baptised because they know that he has not apologised to his survivors, also that there will be a lot of angry people. People are denied baptism for stupid reasons like their hair being cut (women) yet here we have a man that has abused children being re-baptised. Do you understand now what I mean ?
Like I said in my previous posts. Noel has to make it right with God first, it's God who allows him into his kingdom NOT the workers. We don't know the whole story between the workers, Noel and whoever were involved. It's a wonderful thing Noel has repented, I hope his next step is to find ways to make it right with his victims. God will give him the power to do what is right with his victims.Nathan in something's you are very naïve, is this how a normal baptism takes place? Once again you are making it all about him instead of the survivors, as has been said on another post he committed a crime ! Why do you make excuses for something that is wrong? |
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Post by Mary on Apr 5, 2015 4:10:43 GMT -5
The Holy Spirit did not convict him or help him overcome the first time so what makes you think it will the second time?
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Post by Greg on Apr 5, 2015 4:30:11 GMT -5
But you wrote: "Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest and sent the workers and the friends to jail/prison for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago." The point is facts, NathanB. Fact is that they did not serve time in jail/prison. So, more accurate would be "Perhaps, in your part of the world the authority should arrest the workers and the friends and have them do community service for NOT reporting CSA like they did to an overseer, and one of his senior workers here in the USA a few years ago." No, that is not the point. You wrote that they were sent to jail/prison. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it. You play loosely with facts and hold fast to your beliefs regardless of facts. |
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Post by Greg on Apr 5, 2015 4:37:40 GMT -5
Can you tell us what you mean by done in secret? and how Noel's baptism wasn't normal? I mean exactly that Nathan, it was done with selected people there. The Church wasn't invited as far as I know. Normally when there is a baptism it is announced that on such & such a day there will be a baptism. Mr Mackay won't want people to know Noel has been re-baptised because they know that he has not apologised to his survivors, also that there will be a lot of angry people. People are denied baptism for stupid reasons like their hair being cut (women) yet here we have a man that has abused children being re-baptised. Do you understand now what I mean ? There is a verse about making right with those one has wronged before offering sacrifice. Seems to fit. Of course, different ones have different biases and different ways and applications that are used or omitted. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 5, 2015 5:03:26 GMT -5
Nathan in something's you are very naïve, is this how a normal baptism takes place? Once again you are making it all about him instead of the survivors, as has been said on another post he committed a crime ! Why do you make excuses for something that is wrong?
Why, don't you leave it alone, give it a rest, and let the Holy Spirit works with Noel to make the next move and that's making right with his victims.
No Nathan, they made the wrong decision, they know that people will disagree that is why it was done in secret ! Please don't tell me that the workers don't refuse to baptise people for stupid things like short hair, because I know for a fact in Australia this is the case ! I agree that it should not be up the workers to tell people if they can be baptised or not, BUT that is what happens ! As to leaving it alone ... sounds like what the survivors were told to do in the 70's by the workers when Noel was abusing them. |
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Post by catgirl on Apr 5, 2015 5:15:16 GMT -5
this makes me sick and dismayed!!! True forgiveness only comes from true repentance!!!! How can this man be seen as repentant when he has not acknowledged his offences to any victims? Maybe he has sought repentance from God, but as John 3.20 says: "everyone that does evil hates the light, neither comes to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.". next verse says those that do truth come to the light that his deeds may be made manifest.. There must be true honesty with fellow man , the light of Christ must be allowed in to change evil minds. He obviously has not done this, so how can true rebirth or baptism be done? Read more: wingsbts.proboards.com/thread/294/noel-harvey#ixzz3WQdGKR00 |
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Post by Greg on Apr 5, 2015 11:18:07 GMT -5
No, that is not the point. You wrote that they were sent to jail/prison. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it. You play loosely with facts and hold fast to your beliefs regardless of facts. Seems you should have written "they got off just doing 100 hrs of community service and working with the inmates from jail (or prison)." "Jerome pleaded no contest and was sentenced with 100 hours of community service, a $200 fine, and 4 days in jail. However, instead of jail he was able to apply for the weekend alternative program. That means he would go out and work with the inmates in the community, instead of sitting in jail." "I have completed 20 hours of my community service. Today was also my second day out with the inmates." |
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Post by emy on Apr 5, 2015 19:41:28 GMT -5
Personally, I think the sentencing judges made their decision according to what they saw in those two men. If the judge saw them as evil, all the pleading done by lawyers wouldn't have much effect. And who says they were expensive (implied) and trust funds paid for them?
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 5, 2015 20:38:37 GMT -5
No Nathan, they made the wrong decision, they know that people will disagree that is why it was done in secret ! Please don't tell me that the workers don't refuse to baptise people for stupid things like short hair, because I know for a fact in Australia this is the case ! Yes, I know because I was a worker... Workers are humans... they make mistakes... Hopefully, as they continue on as workers they will see their follies and correct it. Been there done that. When I was in the work I too told the victims will get over it because I didn't understand about the seriousness of CSA. If I were in the work today, I would do it much differently.I agree that it should not be up the workers to tell people if they can be baptised or not, BUT that is what happens ! The workers should have explained to people what Baptism means before they baptized them. Baptism= death, burial, resurrection/raise up in newness of life. It takes a moment to baptize but a life long to live out the meaning of baptism. Don't discourage if you fails in your battles to the flesh, the world, and Satan, because the Holy Spirit will give you strength to overcome it. Therefore, NEVER give up or quit.As to leaving it alone ... sounds like what the survivors were told to do in the 70's by the workers when Noel was abusing them. Backing in 70s most workers told the victims will get over it because they didn't know too much about CSA.... Time has changed and people should know they will NOT get over night, they need professional help. Now, Noel has been baptized, he should do what he can to make it right with his victims. We want the victims and abusers to be healed. So at the end of the day Nathan, they made the wrong decision, and a lot of people are very angry about it. So what have they learnt? Lets just keep hiding things, why do you think the baptism was done in secret ! Nothing has changed !! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 5, 2015 20:52:22 GMT -5
You know one of the things that really ticks me off about this while thing... This focus on what he did being "sin". The example of a guy playing up with his step mother or mother in law or whatever in one of Paul's letters was used to support the sin of sexual immorality. I'm guessing that was between consenting adults, yeah? I believe it was me to introduced the man being with his father's wife, but it had nothing to do with whether it was a crime or not -- though it probably was in that time and place. The point I was making was about the ONLY time a person in the New Testament was excluded from fellowship FOR ANYTHING. Paul did NOT turn him over to the legal authorities I don't know -- is it a mere sin for your grown son to sleep with your wife? I won't argue the point. |
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