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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 6, 2015 0:00:51 GMT -5
You know one of the things that really ticks me off about this while thing... This focus on what he did being "sin". The example of a guy playing up with his step mother or mother in law or whatever in one of Paul's letters was used to support the sin of sexual immorality. I'm guessing that was between consenting adults, yeah? I don't know -- is it a mere sin for your grown son to sleep with your wife? I won't argue the point. I wouldn't use the term "mere", but it's not a crime... Well not in any state in Australia... There may be isolated pockets where it's practiced... Parts of Tasmania, as rumor would have it... I understand there are allegations of such behaviour in some of the southern states of the USA also... Sorry, I'm now derailing the thread |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 6, 2015 0:43:09 GMT -5
So at the end of the day Nathan, they made the wrong decision, and a lot of people are very angry about it. So what have they learnt? Lets just keep hiding things, why do you think the baptism was done in secret! Nothing has changed !! Nathan, imagine this for a moment.... your 14 year old daughter has been abused by Mr Harvey, he never apologises to her for what he has done. Why now 20 years later when he decides to be re-baptised in secret would you/a parent be there to help Noel  For goodness sake think about it ! What parent is going to help Noel when all he done was abuse their child ! |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 6, 2015 1:28:07 GMT -5
I don't know -- is it a mere sin for your grown son to sleep with your wife? I won't argue the point. I wouldn't use the term "mere", but it's not a crime... Well not in any state in Australia... There may be isolated pockets where it's practiced... Parts of Tasmania, as rumor would have it... I understand there are allegations of such behaviour in some of the southern states of the USA also... Sorry, I'm now derailing the thread Whether it's practiced or not is no indication whether it's legal or not. However, consent is not normally a defense against incest, however incest is defined. I know that in most US states a step-parent/child relationship is considered incest and illegal. In New Zealand the definition is also extended to foster parent/children relationships. And in some countries the prohibition against step-// relationship is permanent -- that is, it is not cancelled by divorce or age of mature consent. I have read of a case in Australia (I don't know which state) where a step-father was excused of n incest charge, the reason being that the girls mother was divorced from her step-father at the time of the relationship. |
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Post by maryhig on Apr 6, 2015 2:33:37 GMT -5
Nathan, imagine this for a moment.... your 14 year old daughter has been abused by Mr Harvey, he never apologises to her for what he has done. Why now 20 years later when he decides to be re-baptised in secret would you/a parent be there to help Noel For goodness sake think about it ! What parent is going to help Noel when all he done was abuse their child ! ~~ NathanB: The parents need to teach their abused child to forgive the abusers. Un-forgiveness is poisoning to the mind. Many abusers were victims themselves. Both abusers and victims need professionals help to cope with their difficult challenges.Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison Unforgiveness is the single most popular poison that the enemy uses against God's people, and it is one of the deadliest poisons a person can take spiritually. It causes everything from mental depression, to health problems such as cancer and arthritis. I'm not saying that in every single case of cancer, it is due to unforgiveness, but I am saying that it can cause cancer. Cancer comes from the devil, scientist can't explain it, doctors don't understand where it comes from; it's the symptoms of a curse. God allowed the Israelites to face diseases and sickness when they disobeyed Him (Deut 28:58-61), and when they would turn back to Him, He would heal their land and take sickness from their midst (Exodus 23:25, Deut 7:15). In the New Testament, Jesus gave us two commandments (Matthew 22:37-40), and if we break those, we can be opened up to curses, just as the people in the Old Testament were. Jesus never came to abolish the law (Matthew 5:17), but He did come to set us free from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13), meaning, Jesus paid the price so we can be set free from any curses we may have come under. Unforgiveness shows we don't really love Jesus In John 15:12, Jesus commands us to love one another, as He has loved us. True love doesn't hold bitterness or unforgiveness against that person. If we are bitter or hold unforgiveness against somebody, then we don't love them as Christ loved us. If we don't keep Jesus' commandments, then it proves we don't love Him. John 14:24, "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings..." Unforgiveness prevents God from forgiving our sins Matthew 6:15, "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Unforgiveness opens us up to the tormentors (the devil) Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." Unforgiveness can defile a person. Hebrews 12:15, "...lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled." Notice at the end it says, "many be defiled." This is a VERY common, if not one of the most common everyday things that defile people! Many bondages can be shed when a person forgives those who have wronged him or her.Unforgiveness can give Satan an advantage. 2 Corinthians 2:10-11, "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." Unforgiveness can keep a person out of heaven. Matthew 7:12, 21, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets... Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." 1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." The blessings of forgiveness.When we forgive, it opens us up to God's forgiveness (Matthew 6:15), it puts us in a receiving position when we pray (Mark 11:24, 25), it helps us become spiritually fruitful (John 15:10, 12, 5), and we will know that we have passed from spiritual death to being reconciled with our heavenly Father when we love each other (1 John 3:14)! When we keep God's commandments and love one another, we prove that we love Jesus (John 14:21), and we abide in Christ's love (John 15:10)! What a magnificent blessing forgiveness really is!www.greatbiblestudy.com/unforgiveness_poison.phpNathan it's lucky you weren't in the days of Job, he was righteous before God and suffered, with sickness! We may get ill but so do most people, at some point in their lives! You would be like one of Job's three friends who were wrong in God's eyes and judged him. God wasn't happy with them for doing it! I don't like people judging others like that! It makes them look like they think they are holy and know everything! I find you very judgmental with this forgiveness thing. It doesn't matter what the people are saying here Nathan, it's not up to them to forgive, it's up to the abused people and even then it's nothing to do with you or anyone else. They have to be able to come to terms with that in their own time. Nathan one child was 5 the oldest 14 they may never get over something like that so rattling on about them forgiving their abuser isn't very nice! That's something they need to do in their own heart, when they're ready! I think you need to stop judging people yourself Nathan! We can't possibly know what the poor people have gone through unless we've been there! My heart goes out to them. Those people have to live with that their whole lives! |
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Post by Mary on Apr 6, 2015 3:28:09 GMT -5
Jesus said it was better for a millstone to be hung around their neck and they be tossed into the sea than to offend one of those little ones.
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2015 8:52:33 GMT -5
Jesus said it was better for a millstone to be hung around their neck and they he tossed into the sea than to offend one of those little ones. But let's remember Jesus was not actually talking about children. |
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2015 9:11:12 GMT -5
You know one of the things that really ticks me off about this while thing... This focus on what he did being "sin". The example of a guy playing up with his step mother or mother in law or whatever in one of Paul's letters was used to support the sin of sexual immorality. I'm guessing that was between consenting adults, yeah? Noel has committed CRIMES against innocent kids. Now I guess you can rationalise crime as being sin as it breaches some moral code, and yeah I get he has served the sentence imposed by the criminal justice system but for goodness sake stop treating his CRIMES as mere sins... Ok, rant over, I'll go have a cup of tea or something This raises an interesting question. If an adult has sex with a 14 year old is it a sin? It is, of course, a crime. But is it a sin? A sin, for most theists, is the act of violating god's will, a transgression of divine law. Is the sin the child abuse or the fornication? Would it be less of a sin if the people had been all adults? As far as the baptism goes - isn't the walking into the water and submersion all the outward physical act? Not unlike going for a swim. What should matter to the theist, I would think, is the spiritual side of the act and there is no way that it can be determined. If it was an act that was OK with god then it was a baptism. If not, it was just people standing in water being submersed. Whether he was or was not rebaptised is something that no one can know. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 9:17:03 GMT -5
No, that is not the point. You wrote that they were sent to jail/prison. There is a difference, even if you refuse to acknowledge it. You play loosely with facts and hold fast to your beliefs regardless of facts. Rest assured that there will be no good lawyers dealing and wheeling with God,the righteous Judge, when He is siting on The judgment seat; and no light sentence either. It might be more like: depart from me I know you not, so to hell with you. |
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Post by xna on Apr 6, 2015 9:39:03 GMT -5
This raises an interesting question. If an adult has sex with a 14 year old is it a sin? It is, of course, a crime. But is it a sin? A sin, for most theists, is the act of violating god's will, a transgression of divine law. Is the sin the child abuse or the fornication? Would it be less of a sin if the people had been all adults? Good luck finding that answer. It didn't make the top ten list of concerns. The bible does say a "youth" can be a wife. At what age does a child become a "youth"? Proverbs 5 18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love. |
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2015 10:14:42 GMT -5
This raises an interesting question. If an adult has sex with a 14 year old is it a sin? It is, of course, a crime. But is it a sin? A sin, for most theists, is the act of violating god's will, a transgression of divine law. Is the sin the child abuse or the fornication? Would it be less of a sin if the people had been all adults? Good luck finding that answer. It didn't make the top ten list of concerns. The bible does say a "youth" can be a wife. At what age does a child become a "youth"? I think 12 - 13 was not unusual for a woman to enter into a marriage. |
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2015 11:31:12 GMT -5
Nathan, forgiveness is not something that is an abusers right. Forgiveness is not for the abuser, but rather the survivor. I agree that not forgiving can be a form of poison. But to ask or expect them to forgive is just not an acceptable expectation. I forgave, to heal, but not to exonerate the actions of my abuser. So when you judge a survivor for not forgiving that is not fair imo. We all heal, come to that place, in our own time and it is not for anyone else to judge when that is. But forgiveness is never for the abuser.
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2015 11:50:34 GMT -5
Nathan, forgiveness is not something that is an abusers right. Forgiveness is not for the abuser, but rather the survivor. I agree that not forgiving can be a form of poison. But to ask or expect them to forgive is just not an acceptable expectation. I forgave, to heal, but not to exonerate the actions of my abuser. So when you judge a survivor for not forgiving that is not fair imo. We all heal, come to that place, in our own time and it is not for anyone else to judge when that is. But forgiveness is never for the abuser. I believe Clinton Clark once said that from his observation, it seemed that boys who are molested by older men and forgave the molester and forgot about it right away, walked away without picking up unclean homosexual spirits, but those who allowed the trauma to bother them walked away with homosexual spirits and other bondages. That's how the demonic spirits gain access into a person's life through rape and abuse. It's not the abuse or rape, but the bitterness and unhealthy feelings that build up within a person who has been taken advantage of. Demons thrive on bitterness and unforgiveness, and it's a wide open door for them to move right in on a person and develop many spiritual, mental and even physical bondages. Now many of these people who have been hurt, don't express it on the outside, but rather hold the hurt and bitter feelings inside where they fester and grow. I know women who have been raped, and they are kind and gentle and loving people, but inside they are bound up because of what was done to them many years ago. Just because they aren't angry or outrageous individuals, does not mean they are free from the root of bitterness. As I said earlier, bitterness is a root, and roots are not always visible on the surface. They may promote ungodly anger and other emotions on the surface but bitterness itself works under the surface. Bitterness is a root, thereby making it harder to identify and expose than many surface issues, but none the less it's a deadly poison that needs to be released. If left alone, it will grow and fester, and it has the ability to spring up many surface issues such as irritability, anger, hatred, etc. Individuals who have a root of bitterness will often find it easy to become upset over little things that go on around them. It is easy for them to look at the circumstances around them as the source of their problems, rather than seeing how they are handling those circumstances. Instead of letting it go and forgiving, they let it get to them, and it devours them alive. This is a very common route by which demons enter people today. Whether bitterness is manifest on the outside or not does not matter. Due to the nature of bottled up feelings and emotions, they are not always made noticeable on the surface, but that by no means discounts the fact that they are there. If there is a root of bitterness, it needs to be cut off at the root and removed from one's soul. We need to make a choice to release all hurt and bottled up feelings inside our systems, and repent for holding that poison in our hearts. Turn from those feelings and forsake them, and allow the Lord's love to minister to your soul! Bitterness is a deadly poison that needs to be brought into the light and addressed in order to bring many people out of spiritual, emotional and even physical bondage. Bitterness is a means for defilement and countless sickness and diseases are a result of bitterness. I have more on bitterness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison. I also have a teaching on how you can help overcome bitterness and unforgiveness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness and How to Forgive Others. www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.phpSorry but if this is what Christians advocate then I have yet another reason to not be a Christian. You are judging, but then that is what religion does, judge. Of course you justify your judging by saying it isn't you, but your God. But it's still judging. Until you have gone through the experience, you really have no concept of what it is like, how it feels etc. That is why the above is just judging what you do not know. I totally agree if a survivor can get to the place of forgiveness, then it's better for them in the long run, but to say it's an expectation is bogus! |
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Post by maryhig on Apr 6, 2015 13:14:17 GMT -5
Nathan, forgiveness is not something that is an abusers right. Forgiveness is not for the abuser, but rather the survivor. I agree that not forgiving can be a form of poison. But to ask or expect them to forgive is just not an acceptable expectation. I forgave, to heal, but not to exonerate the actions of my abuser. So when you judge a survivor for not forgiving that is not fair imo. We all heal, come to that place, in our own time and it is not for anyone else to judge when that is. But forgiveness is never for the abuser. I believe Clinton Clark once said that from his observation, it seemed that boys who are molested by older men and forgave the molester and forgot about it right away, walked away without picking up unclean homosexual spirits, but those who allowed the trauma to bother them walked away with homosexual spirits and other bondages. That's how the demonic spirits gain access into a person's life through rape and abuse. It's not the abuse or rape, but the bitterness and unhealthy feelings that build up within a person who has been taken advantage of. Demons thrive on bitterness and unforgiveness, and it's a wide open door for them to move right in on a person and develop many spiritual, mental and even physical bondages. Now many of these people who have been hurt, don't express it on the outside, but rather hold the hurt and bitter feelings inside where they fester and grow. I know women who have been raped, and they are kind and gentle and loving people, but inside they are bound up because of what was done to them many years ago. Just because they aren't angry or outrageous individuals, does not mean they are free from the root of bitterness. As I said earlier, bitterness is a root, and roots are not always visible on the surface. They may promote ungodly anger and other emotions on the surface but bitterness itself works under the surface. Bitterness is a root, thereby making it harder to identify and expose than many surface issues, but none the less it's a deadly poison that needs to be released. If left alone, it will grow and fester, and it has the ability to spring up many surface issues such as irritability, anger, hatred, etc. Individuals who have a root of bitterness will often find it easy to become upset over little things that go on around them. It is easy for them to look at the circumstances around them as the source of their problems, rather than seeing how they are handling those circumstances. Instead of letting it go and forgiving, they let it get to them, and it devours them alive. This is a very common route by which demons enter people today. Whether bitterness is manifest on the outside or not does not matter. Due to the nature of bottled up feelings and emotions, they are not always made noticeable on the surface, but that by no means discounts the fact that they are there. If there is a root of bitterness, it needs to be cut off at the root and removed from one's soul. We need to make a choice to release all hurt and bottled up feelings inside our systems, and repent for holding that poison in our hearts. Turn from those feelings and forsake them, and allow the Lord's love to minister to your soul! Bitterness is a deadly poison that needs to be brought into the light and addressed in order to bring many people out of spiritual, emotional and even physical bondage. Bitterness is a means for defilement and countless sickness and diseases are a result of bitterness. I have more on bitterness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison. I also have a teaching on how you can help overcome bitterness and unforgiveness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness and How to Forgive Others. www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.phpNathan that's shocking! I am Gobsmacked! Your putting the emphasis abused rather than the abuser! Do you know how hurtful that post must be to women who have been abused like this! Saying that they have demons? What about the abuser? How do you know how God will judge them? You're not God! You should think of the suffering people go through before you write stuff like that! I've never in my life heard anything like it! It's terrible! |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 6, 2015 13:26:24 GMT -5
Jesus said it was better for a millstone to be hung around their neck and they he tossed into the sea than to offend one of those little ones. But let's remember Jesus was not actually talking about children. Who are little ones? ? |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 6, 2015 15:28:30 GMT -5
But let's remember Jesus was not actually talking about children. Who are little ones? ? Yeah. Now, I am no Bible scholar. Never pretended to be one. Never even (gasp) aspired to be one. No apologies for that. I understand that the "little ones" would not necessarily be restricted to children, but I would be extremely interested to know why it excluded children. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 6, 2015 15:48:26 GMT -5
Nathan that's shocking! I am Gobsmacked! Your putting the emphasis abused rather than the abuser! Do you know how hurtful that post must be to women who have been abused like this! Saying that they have demons? What about the abuser? How do you know how God will judge them? You're not God! You should think of the suffering people go through before you write stuff like that! I've never in my life heard anything like it! It's terrible! Many who criticize the deliverance ministry will claim that we tend to blame everything on demons to avoid personal responsibility. That is simply not true in most cases in this type of ministry. I do not intend on ignoring the flesh or overemphasizing the demonic, but I would like to clearly explain how the two work together to carry out Satan's plan in our lives.The flesh is the gateway to the demonic. Many times (unless it is generational, etc.), it is through the flesh that demons gain entrance into a person's life. We are first tempted by demons (the enemy works through his army of fallen angels) because they are seeking to gain entrance into our lives or carry out a plan to kill, steal or destroy us (see John 10:10), then once we give in, they become welcomed into our lives, and once they enter, they will serve as bad friends who will constantly seek to negatively influence us. Having a spirit of lust will be like working in an adult bookstore... it will work to wear you down and get you to give in. Without having that spirit, it is much easier to resist the temptation. But wait a minute, what about plain old temptation that is thrown our way on regular bases? We are not immune from that, are we? No, unfortunately we will probably be tempted to a certain degree until we leave this earth. But let me illustrate the difference between normal temptation and having a demon which is pressuring you to sin: When you drive down the road and see an adult bookstore alongside the road, you can easily resist thinking about what is inside that store... that is temptation. Now let's say that you had to work in such a store, and have sex videos playing on the TV screens all day long... that is what it's like to have a spirit of lust. There is a VERY big difference! If you simply feel a little temptation once in a while and find it very easy to resist, then you are likely experiencing simple temptation from the enemy and your goal is to resist it and move on. However, if you feel driven to lust or pornography (or other sinful behavior such as anger, hate, rage, etc.), then you likely have a spirit that must be driven out. As I said earlier, the flesh is the gateway to the demonic. Demons cannot simply walk up to us and enter... they must be welcomed, and our flesh is their tool to get the job done. If they can tempt us to sin, and our flesh opens the door, then they will have 'permission' to access our souls and/or bodies. This is why you cannot effectively minister to a person who is not ready to let go of their bondage. If somebody is not willing to give up lust, then even if you do get them delivered (by casting out all spirits of lust, addiction, etc.), that person will likely (without even knowing it) re-open that door all over again and the demons can come right back.Sin is a work of the fleshIs it possible for a demon to take complete control over a person, and cause them to murder, rape, etc.? Yes! But in most situations, that is not the case. Unless the demon takes complete control over the person, it is the flesh that commits the sin. Take for example a person who has a spirit of lust and then commits adultery... it is their flesh that has sinned, but it was coaxed along (or pressured) by the spirit of lust (or similar spirits). Having a spirit of lust can pressure us to sin, but it cannot force us to sin. This is why the Bible still refers to various sinful acts as 'works of the flesh': Galatians 5:19-21, "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envying, murders, drunkenness, revealing, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." Demons are like bad friendsSo what if you have a spirit of rage, and you are driven to violence? Wouldn't at least some of it be the demon's fault if you fell into that type of sin? Having a demon is like having a bad friend who has access to your mind and can sit there and inject thoughts or feelings in your system day after day. If you hang around bad friends all the time, what happens? You begin to become like them... they will wear off on you! That is what happens when a person has a demon; the demon's ways will wear on that person's flesh and break it down... making it hard to resist temptation and sin!Can a demon take control over a person and use their body to commit gruesome acts of murder, etc.? While it can happen, it is rarely the case. Demons are great at working the flesh up to the point of sin and putting pressure on them that can be very hard to resist. This is usually how they do their dirty work in our lives. ConclusionThe flesh is the open door to the enemy, and the demons are here to ruin our lives. The two work together to carry out Satan's plan to destroy us! The flesh must be crucified (or consider ourselves dead to sin - see Romans 6:11), and demons must be cast out. If we try to crucify the demon or cast out the flesh... we are wasting our time! It is vital that we accomplish two things when seeking deliverance: A) Make sure that our flesh is not joining hands with the demon or giving it any permission. B) Get rid of any unclean spirits that may be working against us. It is pointless to constantly discipline the flesh yet allow the demons to remain, and it is also useless to cast out the demons, but allow the flesh to re-open the doors to them again.www.greatbiblestudy.com/flesh_demons.php Nathan, I think you should have quit a long time ago... I was going to say while you were ahead...but that's not quite accurate either. Maybe before you dug yourself a pit that is at least 1000 ft. deep. Now, I have made at least 100,000 decisions (probably waaaaay more) that have ensured that I did not end up working in an adult bookstore. But if I did, and had sex videos playing on a screen all day, day after day, I am absolutely sure that "giving in" would not be on the list of possible alternatives for my behavior. In a nutshell. There are no demons. Everything you do and everything you think and everything you say is YOUR responsibility. YOURS. Alone. Forgiveness is a really touchy subject. I have gone through periods of my life where I have even thought I was a bit of an expert on it. Wrong. So wrong. I like the goodness of your heart, where you think that this is something that should be done - for a number of reasons, but it is SUCH an individual matter. This is one area where you deal with what comes up for you as an individual - but where everyone else is concerned - it's probably best to sit back, observe, learn. |
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2015 15:49:46 GMT -5
I understand that the "little ones" would not necessarily be restricted to children, but I would be extremely interested to know why it excluded children. Matthew 18 makes it a little clearer that the followers of Jesus were to become as little children. KJV: But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.NIV: If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.I seems be referring to childlike people that believed in Jesus. The words offend/stumble are thought to refer to causing a believer to doubt or stop believing. It certainly could include children. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 6, 2015 15:59:40 GMT -5
I understand that the "little ones" would not necessarily be restricted to children, but I would be extremely interested to know why it excluded children. Matthew 18 makes it a little clearer that the followers of Jesus were to become as little children. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.I seems be referring to childlike people that believed in Jesus. It certainly could include children. Yeah. I have always (re-)interpreted that verse in my mind as anyone who is more vulnerable than me. That would most definitely include children. (I personally wouldn't even care if they believed in Jesus (or what ever was meant by that) or not.) |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2015 16:32:54 GMT -5
Matthew 18 makes it a little clearer that the followers of Jesus were to become as little children. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.I seems be referring to childlike people that believed in Jesus. It certainly could include children. Yeah. I have always (re-)interpreted that verse in my mind as anyone who is more vulnerable than me. That would most definitely include children. (I personally wouldn't even care if they believed in Jesus (or what ever was meant by that) or not.) Yes I agree, but I cannot count the number of time I have heard folks giving testimoneys and refer to themselves as "a child of God." Or "children of God." Many speak about having that childlike spirit too. When I was in primary school we often sang a hymn which started like this: Do no sinful actions, speak no angry words, we belong to Jesus, children of the Lord. A child like spirit of innocence and trusting and obedience. Cecil F. Alexander: Hymns for Little Children, 1848. |
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Post by kittens on Apr 6, 2015 16:58:09 GMT -5
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 6, 2015 17:26:52 GMT -5
Yeah. I have always (re-)interpreted that verse in my mind as anyone who is more vulnerable than me. That would most definitely include children. (I personally wouldn't even care if they believed in Jesus (or what ever was meant by that) or not.) Yes I agree, but I cannot count the number of time I have heard folks giving testimoneys and refer to themselves as "a child of God." Or "children of God." Many speak about having that childlike spirit too. When I was in primary school we often sang a hymn which started like this: Do no sinful actions, speak no angry words, we belong to Jesus, children of the Lord. A child like spirit of innocence and trusting and obedience. Cecil F. Alexander: Hymns for Little Children, 1848. I think you and I both agree that "little ones" could refer to both children and adults. I don't have a problem with the "child-like" attributes of innocence, trust and obedience in the face of what you might conceive of as God. I do have a problem with it where other (sometimes unscrupulous) human beings are concerned. When I was still a member, I reconciled the "child-like" attributes in terms of openness, curiosity, questioning. Being more prepared to ask a question than offer an answer. Otherwise, I would have had to have walked away much sooner than I did. |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Apr 6, 2015 17:44:14 GMT -5
Nathan, forgiveness is not something that is an abusers right. Forgiveness is not for the abuser, but rather the survivor. I agree that not forgiving can be a form of poison. But to ask or expect them to forgive is just not an acceptable expectation. I forgave, to heal, but not to exonerate the actions of my abuser. So when you judge a survivor for not forgiving that is not fair imo. We all heal, come to that place, in our own time and it is not for anyone else to judge when that is. But forgiveness is never for the abuser. I Countless women who are raped develop awful emotional and spiritual bondage. It's not because they were raped, but because they allowed the trauma to get to them. Many women are in bondage today because they became bitter under the surface about what was done to them years ago. I believe Clinton Clark once said that from his observation, it seemed that boys who are molested by older men and forgave the molester and forgot about it right away, walked away without picking up unclean homosexual spirits, but those who allowed the trauma to bother them walked away with homosexual spirits and other bondages. That's how the demonic spirits gain access into a person's life through rape and abuse. It's not the abuse or rape, but the bitterness and unhealthy feelings that build up within a person who has been taken advantage of. Demons thrive on bitterness and unforgiveness, and it's a wide open door for them to move right in on a person and develop many spiritual, mental and even physical bondages. Now many of these people who have been hurt, don't express it on the outside, but rather hold the hurt and bitter feelings inside where they fester and grow. I know women who have been raped, and they are kind and gentle and loving people, but inside they are bound up because of what was done to them many years ago. Just because they aren't angry or outrageous individuals, does not mean they are free from the root of bitterness. As I said earlier, bitterness is a root, and roots are not always visible on the surface. They may promote ungodly anger and other emotions on the surface but bitterness itself works under the surface. Bitterness is a root, thereby making it harder to identify and expose than many surface issues, but none the less it's a deadly poison that needs to be released. If left alone, it will grow and fester, and it has the ability to spring up many surface issues such as irritability, anger, hatred, etc. Individuals who have a root of bitterness will often find it easy to become upset over little things that go on around them. It is easy for them to look at the circumstances around them as the source of their problems, rather than seeing how they are handling those circumstances. Instead of letting it go and forgiving, they let it get to them, and it devours them alive. This is a very common route by which demons enter people today. Whether bitterness is manifest on the outside or not does not matter. Due to the nature of bottled up feelings and emotions, they are not always made noticeable on the surface, but that by no means discounts the fact that they are there. If there is a root of bitterness, it needs to be cut off at the root and removed from one's soul. We need to make a choice to release all hurt and bottled up feelings inside our systems, and repent for holding that poison in our hearts. Turn from those feelings and forsake them, and allow the Lord's love to minister to your soul! Bitterness is a deadly poison that needs to be brought into the light and addressed in order to bring many people out of spiritual, emotional and even physical bondage. Bitterness is a means for defilement and countless sickness and diseases are a result of bitterness. I have more on bitterness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison. I also have a teaching on how you can help overcome bitterness and unforgiveness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness and How to Forgive Others. www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.phpNathan, I was about to tear you a new one over your thoughts on this, but I see that's already been done in a rather kinder manner than I was going to. but, how DARE you suggest that a victim/survivor of abuse or crime just get over it and forgive! Go and work in an organisation that supports victims, just for a while, and I guarantee your attitude to this will change... |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 6, 2015 19:14:27 GMT -5
Nathan, imagine this for a moment.... your 14 year old daughter has been abused by Mr Harvey, he never apologises to her for what he has done. Why now 20 years later when he decides to be re-baptised in secret would you/a parent be there to help Noel For goodness sake think about it ! What parent is going to help Noel when all he done was abuse their child ! ~~ NathanB: The parents need to teach their abused child to forgive the abusers. Un-forgiveness is poisoning to the mind. Many abusers were victims themselves. Both abusers and victims need professionals help to cope with their difficult challenges.Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison Unforgiveness is the single most popular poison that the enemy uses against God's people, and it is one of the deadliest poisons a person can take spiritually. It causes everything from mental depression, to health problems such as cancer and arthritis. I'm not saying that in every single case of cancer, it is due to unforgiveness, but I am saying that it can cause cancer. Cancer comes from the devil, scientist can't explain it, doctors don't understand where it comes from; it's the symptoms of a curse. God allowed the Israelites to face diseases and sickness when they disobeyed Him (Deut 28:58-61), and when they would turn back to Him, He would heal their land and take sickness from their midst (Exodus 23:25, Deut 7:15). In the New Testament, Jesus gave us two commandments (Matthew 22:37-40), and if we break those, we can be opened up to curses, just as the people in the Old Testament were. Jesus never came to abolish the law (Matthew 5:17), but He did come to set us free from the curse of the law (Galatians 3:13), meaning, Jesus paid the price so we can be set free from any curses we may have come under. Unforgiveness shows we don't really love Jesus In John 15:12, Jesus commands us to love one another, as He has loved us. True love doesn't hold bitterness or unforgiveness against that person. If we are bitter or hold unforgiveness against somebody, then we don't love them as Christ loved us. If we don't keep Jesus' commandments, then it proves we don't love Him. John 14:24, "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings..." Unforgiveness prevents God from forgiving our sins Matthew 6:15, "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Unforgiveness opens us up to the tormentors (the devil) Matthew 18:23-35, "Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses." Unforgiveness can defile a person. Hebrews 12:15, "...lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled." Notice at the end it says, "many be defiled." This is a VERY common, if not one of the most common everyday things that defile people! Many bondages can be shed when a person forgives those who have wronged him or her.Unforgiveness can give Satan an advantage. 2 Corinthians 2:10-11, "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices." Unforgiveness can keep a person out of heaven. Matthew 7:12, 21, "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets... Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." 1 John 3:14, "We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." The blessings of forgiveness.When we forgive, it opens us up to God's forgiveness (Matthew 6:15), it puts us in a receiving position when we pray (Mark 11:24, 25), it helps us become spiritually fruitful (John 15:10, 12, 5), and we will know that we have passed from spiritual death to being reconciled with our heavenly Father when we love each other (1 John 3:14)! When we keep God's commandments and love one another, we prove that we love Jesus (John 14:21), and we abide in Christ's love (John 15:10)! What a magnificent blessing forgiveness really is!www.greatbiblestudy.com/unforgiveness_poison.phpNathan do you have children? How would you feel if Noel abused your child ? People forgive in their own time and they don't need people telling them that they have to forgive especially if the person who is telling them to forgive has no understanding of how they feel. Why is it so hard for you to say the workers have done the wrong thing with this, instead of trying to justify a man who abused & NEW APOLIGISED to his survivors how about taking a stand and say things have to change ? Here we are in 2015 and people are still covering up for WRONG. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 6, 2015 19:21:04 GMT -5
If you're a Christian you must pay attention to Jesus teaching Very CAREFULLY! in Matthew 7:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.Bitterness can be kept to one's selfCountless women who are raped develop awful emotional and spiritual bondage. It's not because they were raped, but because they allowed the trauma to get to them. Many women are in bondage today because they became bitter under the surface about what was done to them years ago. I believe Clinton Clark once said that from his observation, it seemed that boys who are molested by older men and forgave the molester and forgot about it right away, walked away without picking up unclean homosexual spirits, but those who allowed the trauma to bother them walked away with homosexual spirits and other bondages. That's how the demonic spirits gain access into a person's life through rape and abuse. It's not the abuse or rape, but the bitterness and unhealthy feelings that build up within a person who has been taken advantage of. Demons thrive on bitterness and unforgiveness, and it's a wide open door for them to move right in on a person and develop many spiritual, mental and even physical bondages. Now many of these people who have been hurt, don't express it on the outside, but rather hold the hurt and bitter feelings inside where they fester and grow. I know women who have been raped, and they are kind and gentle and loving people, but inside they are bound up because of what was done to them many years ago. Just because they aren't angry or outrageous individuals, does not mean they are free from the root of bitterness. As I said earlier, bitterness is a root, and roots are not always visible on the surface. They may promote ungodly anger and other emotions on the surface but bitterness itself works under the surface. Bitterness is a root, thereby making it harder to identify and expose than many surface issues, but none the less it's a deadly poison that needs to be released. If left alone, it will grow and fester, and it has the ability to spring up many surface issues such as irritability, anger, hatred, etc. Individuals who have a root of bitterness will often find it easy to become upset over little things that go on around them. It is easy for them to look at the circumstances around them as the source of their problems, rather than seeing how they are handling those circumstances. Instead of letting it go and forgiving, they let it get to them, and it devours them alive. This is a very common route by which demons enter people today. Whether bitterness is manifest on the outside or not does not matter. Due to the nature of bottled up feelings and emotions, they are not always made noticeable on the surface, but that by no means discounts the fact that they are there. If there is a root of bitterness, it needs to be cut off at the root and removed from one's soul. We need to make a choice to release all hurt and bottled up feelings inside our systems, and repent for holding that poison in our hearts. Turn from those feelings and forsake them, and allow the Lord's love to minister to your soul! Bitterness is a deadly poison that needs to be brought into the light and addressed in order to bring many people out of spiritual, emotional and even physical bondage. Bitterness is a means for defilement and countless sickness and diseases are a result of bitterness. I have more on bitterness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison. I also have a teaching on how you can help overcome bitterness and unforgiveness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness and How to Forgive Others. www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.php Nathan that's shocking! I am Gobsmacked! Your putting the emphasis abused rather than the abuser! Do you know how hurtful that post must be to women who have been abused like this! Saying that they have demons? What about the abuser? How do you know how God will judge them? You're not God! You should think of the suffering people go through before you write stuff like that! I've never in my life heard anything like it! It's terrible! Nathan do you read this stuff you copy & paste? " Countless women who are raped develop awful emotional and spiritual bondage. It's not because they were raped, but because they allowed the trauma to get to them. |
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Post by snow on Apr 6, 2015 20:28:17 GMT -5
If you're a Christian you must pay attention to Jesus teaching Very CAREFULLY! in Matthew 7:14-15 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.Bitterness can be kept to one's selfCountless women who are raped develop awful emotional and spiritual bondage. It's not because they were raped, but because they allowed the trauma to get to them. Many women are in bondage today because they became bitter under the surface about what was done to them years ago. I believe Clinton Clark once said that from his observation, it seemed that boys who are molested by older men and forgave the molester and forgot about it right away, walked away without picking up unclean homosexual spirits, but those who allowed the trauma to bother them walked away with homosexual spirits and other bondages. That's how the demonic spirits gain access into a person's life through rape and abuse. It's not the abuse or rape, but the bitterness and unhealthy feelings that build up within a person who has been taken advantage of. Demons thrive on bitterness and unforgiveness, and it's a wide open door for them to move right in on a person and develop many spiritual, mental and even physical bondages. Now many of these people who have been hurt, don't express it on the outside, but rather hold the hurt and bitter feelings inside where they fester and grow. I know women who have been raped, and they are kind and gentle and loving people, but inside they are bound up because of what was done to them many years ago. Just because they aren't angry or outrageous individuals, does not mean they are free from the root of bitterness. As I said earlier, bitterness is a root, and roots are not always visible on the surface. They may promote ungodly anger and other emotions on the surface but bitterness itself works under the surface. Bitterness is a root, thereby making it harder to identify and expose than many surface issues, but none the less it's a deadly poison that needs to be released. If left alone, it will grow and fester, and it has the ability to spring up many surface issues such as irritability, anger, hatred, etc. Individuals who have a root of bitterness will often find it easy to become upset over little things that go on around them. It is easy for them to look at the circumstances around them as the source of their problems, rather than seeing how they are handling those circumstances. Instead of letting it go and forgiving, they let it get to them, and it devours them alive. This is a very common route by which demons enter people today. Whether bitterness is manifest on the outside or not does not matter. Due to the nature of bottled up feelings and emotions, they are not always made noticeable on the surface, but that by no means discounts the fact that they are there. If there is a root of bitterness, it needs to be cut off at the root and removed from one's soul. We need to make a choice to release all hurt and bottled up feelings inside our systems, and repent for holding that poison in our hearts. Turn from those feelings and forsake them, and allow the Lord's love to minister to your soul! Bitterness is a deadly poison that needs to be brought into the light and addressed in order to bring many people out of spiritual, emotional and even physical bondage. Bitterness is a means for defilement and countless sickness and diseases are a result of bitterness. I have more on bitterness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness: Spiritual Poison. I also have a teaching on how you can help overcome bitterness and unforgiveness in my teaching titled, Unforgiveness and How to Forgive Others. www.greatbiblestudy.com/bitterness.php Nathan that's shocking! I am Gobsmacked! Your putting the emphasis abused rather than the abuser! Do you know how hurtful that post must be to women who have been abused like this! Saying that they have demons? What about the abuser? How do you know how God will judge them? You're not God! You should think of the suffering people go through before you write stuff like that! I've never in my life heard anything like it! It's terrible! Yes, it's pretty bad that's for sure. And men wonder why women don't report rape. Too many of them still view it as the woman asking for it, something she did or didn't do, etc. Women who have been raped will always live with the wondering what they could have done differently. That's just a given. Getting past it is a lot of work. A lot of healing. And then you read stuff like this and you wonder if people will ever get it. I doubt I will ever be completely healed and I have forgiven. It's myself I have a very hard time forgiving for putting myself in a vulnerable position even though I was only 17 and pretty naive. Sometimes when I least expect it I go back to what happened how I felt and the fear I felt. I am pretty strong, but even I get overwhelmed sometimes when I least expect it. Reading stuff like this brings it back and it's really hard to understand how people can talk about demons etc. Religious beliefs can be so dangerous and this is a very prime example of it. |
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Post by kittens on Apr 6, 2015 21:48:16 GMT -5
Nathan that's shocking! I am Gobsmacked! Your putting the emphasis abused rather than the abuser! Do you know how hurtful that post must be to women who have been abused like this! Saying that they have demons? What about the abuser? How do you know how God will judge them? You're not God! You should think of the suffering people go through before you write stuff like that! I've never in my life heard anything like it! It's terrible! Yes, it's pretty bad that's for sure. And men wonder why women don't report rape. Too many of them still view it as the woman asking for it, something she did or didn't do, etc. Women who have been raped will always live with the wondering what they could have done differently. That's just a given. Getting past it is a lot of work. A lot of healing. And then you read stuff like this and you wonder if people will ever get it. I doubt I will ever be completely healed and I have forgiven. It's myself I have a very hard time forgiving for putting myself in a vulnerable position even though I was only 17 and pretty naive. Sometimes when I least expect it I go back to what happened how I felt and the fear I felt. I am pretty strong, but even I get overwhelmed sometimes when I least expect it. Reading stuff like this brings it back and it's really hard to understand how people can talk about demons etc. Religious beliefs can be so dangerous and this is a very prime example of it. 1 |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 6, 2015 22:10:43 GMT -5
Thank you Ross for a putting it into perspective. I think it is sad that we are in 2015 and what has really changed, what has been learnt from this ?
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 6, 2015 22:13:15 GMT -5
Yes, it's pretty bad that's for sure. And men wonder why women don't report rape. Too many of them still view it as the woman asking for it, something she did or didn't do, etc. Women who have been raped will always live with the wondering what they could have done differently. That's just a given. Getting past it is a lot of work. A lot of healing. And then you read stuff like this and you wonder if people will ever get it. I doubt I will ever be completely healed and I have forgiven. It's myself I have a very hard time forgiving for putting myself in a vulnerable position even though I was only 17 and pretty naive. Sometimes when I least expect it I go back to what happened how I felt and the fear I felt. I am pretty strong, but even I get overwhelmed sometimes when I least expect it. Reading stuff like this brings it back and it's really hard to understand how people can talk about demons etc. Religious beliefs can be so dangerous and this is a very prime example of it. I can relate the this. I think of myself as a victim AND a survivor. Most of the time I am a strong, independent person who has got on with her life. I have a good career, strong marriage, assets etc etc and I don't dwell on what happened. Therefore I am a survivor. But there are times when it all comes flooding back and I am a sobbing mess. I just can't completely forget it. I have tried numerous times to forgive them and think I have succeeded but then realise maybe I haven't. I would love to forgive and forget because I know what it says in the bible and also for my own peace of mind. Because I can't fully forget I feel I am still a victim at these times. I do know, however, that is wasn't my fault. I wasn't a precocious child. I was very shy. Both workers were involved for the whole year they were in our home. I couldn't get away from them and when I tried to tell my mother she told me if I told any more lies I would get a flogging. I was 11. Thoughts to you kittens |
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For goodness sake think about it !
