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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2015 23:36:28 GMT -5
I can relate the this. I think of myself as a victim AND a survivor. Most of the time I am a strong, independent person who has got on with her life. I have a good career, strong marriage, assets etc etc and I don't dwell on what happened. Therefore I am a survivor. But there are times when it all comes flooding back and I am a sobbing mess. I just can't completely forget it. I have tried numerous times to forgive them and think I have succeeded but then realise maybe I haven't. I would love to forgive and forget because I know what it says in the bible and also for my own peace of mind. Because I can't fully forget I feel I am still a victim at these times. I do know, however, that is wasn't my fault. I wasn't a precocious child. I was very shy. Both workers were involved for the whole year they were in our home. I couldn't get away from them and when I tried to tell my mother she told me if I told any more lies I would get a flogging. I was 11. Why do you feel the need to forgive the workers? Do you feel the need to forgive your mother? |
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Post by rational on Apr 6, 2015 23:52:15 GMT -5
Only a robot would be able to separate the two - a human being cannot be abused/molested/raped without suffering some trauma - and generally a significant amount. There have been a number of studies that do not support your observation. Perhaps factors are that there are many forms of abuse and the reaction to the various forms of abuse and the environment that the victim has been raised in, as well as the way the abuse was perceived make it difficult to make a blanket statement. It is difficult to not let moral panic interfere with objective thinking. |
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Post by kittens on Apr 7, 2015 1:16:43 GMT -5
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Post by maryhig on Apr 7, 2015 2:02:03 GMT -5
Thanks Roselyn T. Rational I think I did forgive my mother eventually but it still hurts when I think about it. She was a good mother in so many other ways. She never apologised but years later, when she realised I'd been telling the truth, she said she just couldn't believe the workers could do such things. Such is the extreme hero worship we are taught to uphold them in. My heart goes out to you! <<hugs>> I've never been through anything like that, but I've suffered in a different way, from the age of 17 and I never told anyone. And like you and snow when my mind starts wandering and drifts back I end up really upset! That's why I don't like judgemental remarks like "you should forgive quickly before demons get in" if demons got in anywhere it was into the abusers! When you suffer like that, it takes a long time to get over it and it's not easy just to "forgive" I had nightmares for a long time after! I have forgiven him now, but without God I couldn't have done it, he gave me the strength! Forgiveness doesn't always happen overnight when you've been though a traumatic experience! It's hard to forgive when you're still in pain! No one will understand unless they've been in the same situation! The pain has to go first before the healing! And my big bandage was God's love and the love of my husband and family that God had blessed me with! |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 7, 2015 3:26:19 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you should have quit a long time ago... I was going to say while you were ahead...but that's not quite accurate either. Maybe before you dug yourself a pit that is at least 1000 ft. deep. Now, I have made at least 100,000 decisions (probably waaaaay more) that have ensured that I did not end up working in an adult bookstore. But if I did, and had sex videos playing on a screen all day, day after day, I am absolutely sure that "giving in" would not be on the list of possible alternatives for my behavior. In a nutshell. There are no demons. Everything you do and everything you think and everything you say is YOUR responsibility. YOURS. Alone. Forgiveness is a really touchy subject. I have gone through periods of my life where I have even thought I was a bit of an expert on it. Wrong. So wrong. I like the goodness of your heart, where you think that this is something that should be done - for a number of reasons, but it is SUCH an individual matter. This is one area where you deal with what comes up for you as an individual - but where everyone else is concerned - it's probably best to sit back, observe, learn.
I KNOW what I am talking about the demons and the work of the flesh go together. I have been a victim myself! I don't talk too much about my experience. However, I will try to educate others about some of these things which I have learned and experienced .... sexual abused page within the fellowship on my 2x2 message board. There is a darker and stronger force than humans behind most of these sexual abused incidents. Rubbish, Nathan, utter rubbish. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 7, 2015 3:34:08 GMT -5
Nathan, I think you should have quit a long time ago... I was going to say while you were ahead...but that's not quite accurate either. Maybe before you dug yourself a pit that is at least 1000 ft. deep. Now, I have made at least 100,000 decisions (probably waaaaay more) that have ensured that I did not end up working in an adult bookstore. But if I did, and had sex videos playing on a screen all day, day after day, I am absolutely sure that "giving in" would not be on the list of possible alternatives for my behavior. In a nutshell. There are no demons. Everything you do and everything you think and everything you say is YOUR responsibility. YOURS. Alone. Forgiveness is a really touchy subject. I have gone through periods of my life where I have even thought I was a bit of an expert on it. Wrong. So wrong. I like the goodness of your heart, where you think that this is something that should be done - for a number of reasons, but it is SUCH an individual matter. This is one area where you deal with what comes up for you as an individual - but where everyone else is concerned - it's probably best to sit back, observe, learn.
I KNOW what I am talking about the demons and the work of the flesh go together. I have been a victim myself! I don't talk too much about my experience. However, I will try to educate others about some of these things which I have learned and experienced .... sexual abused page within the fellowship on my 2x2 message board. There is a darker and stronger force than humans behind most of these sexual abused incidents. If you want to educate others Nathan, stop making wrong right ! Stop justifying a man who abused children ! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 4:31:20 GMT -5
I believe that there is a time and a season for everything, there is a time for consolement and a time to be antagonistic. On this thread and on this topic there is a time for consolement, sympathy and understanding for the victims, not a display of the lack of sympathy and favoritism for one side at the expense ot the other side.
People have choices, we can choose to do the right things or we can choose to do the wrong things,to satisfy our desires, but we must face the consequences for the choices we make especially when they mess up other people's lives.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 4:44:35 GMT -5
I KNOW what I am talking about the demons and the work of the flesh go together. I have been a victim myself! I don't talk too much about my experience. However, I will try to educate others about some of these things which I have learned and experienced .... sexual abused page within the fellowship on my 2x2 message board. There is a darker and stronger force than humans behind most of these sexual abused incidents. If you want to educate others Nathan, stop making wrong right ! Stop justifying a man who abused children ! Nathan is offering his explanation which seems to be: the devil made him do it, so he is not really responsible. |
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Post by Mary on Apr 7, 2015 5:21:24 GMT -5
Nathan means well. He's made it clear that he doesn't condone abuse of any kind but he is strong in his beliefs in some things but this is too sensitive a topic for him to go saying forgive, get over it and other things which shows this is a topic he does not understand. The severity of abuse, relationship of abuser and their victim and other factors also contribute to the severity of symptoms.
I agree victims are survivors which is a more powerful word but I do not feel comfortable saying Noels survivors rather than his victims. There are times when we use the word victim and times when we use survivors, depending on the context.
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Post by fixit on Apr 7, 2015 6:33:37 GMT -5
Thanks Roselyn T. Rational I think I did forgive my mother eventually but it still hurts when I think about it. She was a good mother in so many other ways. She never apologised but years later, when she realised I'd been telling the truth, she said she just couldn't believe the workers could do such things. Such is the extreme hero worship we are taught to uphold them in. And this is a classic example of why hero worship is dangerous. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 7, 2015 6:44:35 GMT -5
I do know, however, that is wasn't my fault. I wasn't a precocious child. I was very shy. Both workers were involved for the whole year they were in our home. I couldn't get away from them and when I tried to tell my mother she told me if I told any more lies I would get a flogging. I was 11. This is incredibly sad. It's cases like this that workers and friends need to be made aware of to jolt them out of their little dream-world so they take action. I would like to know what overseers have done to reduce the chances of something like this happening again in the future. |
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2015 8:38:32 GMT -5
I KNOW what I am talking about the demons and the work of the flesh go together. , this is a belief you hold. You cannot present any verifiable proof to support your convictions. Again, a belief. Human behavior can be quite dark and alarming. Some people do things that are so heinous that others believe are beyond the capability of another human being so they throw in a demon to cover their disbelief. At times a person will do something that, when they reflect back on what they did, are so distressed by their actions that they blame it on demonic possession. A man ion New England was just caught with a duffel-bag containing a human torso. He also smelled strongly of bleach. Back at his apartment the rest of the body parts were discovered along with the tools used for the dismembering. One could say he was possessed (looking for an insanity plea) or it could be he killed in anger and was trying to dispose of the body. Which makes more sense? But maybe convincing people you were possessed by a demon is the best root because most people who sit on a jury would consider that a sign of insanity. |
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2015 8:44:31 GMT -5
I do know, however, that is wasn't my fault. I wasn't a precocious child. I was very shy. Both workers were involved for the whole year they were in our home. I couldn't get away from them and when I tried to tell my mother she told me if I told any more lies I would get a flogging. I was 11. This is incredibly sad. It's cases like this that workers and friends need to be made aware of to jolt them out of their little dream-world so they take action. I would like to know what overseers have done to reduce the chances of something like this happening again in the future. What do you think the overseers can do if the victims/guardians do not inform them? The root of the problem is that the victims, those responsible for the victims (their guardians), and anyone who has knowledge of the crime are not reporting them to the authorities. |
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2015 9:01:15 GMT -5
Nathan means well. He's made it clear that he doesn't condone abuse of any kind but he is strong in his beliefs in some things but this is too sensitive a topic for him to go saying forgive, get over it and other things which shows this is a topic he does not understand. The severity of abuse, relationship of abuser and their victim and other factors also contribute to the severity of symptoms. I agree victims are survivors which is a more powerful word but I do not feel comfortable saying Noels survivors rather than his victims. There are times when we use the word victim and times when we use survivors, depending on the context. How is 'survivors' a more powerful word if it means you were a victim? If someone is the victim of abuse why would you want to characterize them as something else? Being a victim does not make a person a survivor. Or perhaps you are saying that because you have been victimized you do not want to go through life in the role of a victim but would rather go through life in the role of a survivor? In either case, does re-branding change anything? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 11:00:35 GMT -5
Thanks Roselyn T. Rational I think I did forgive my mother eventually but it still hurts when I think about it. She was a good mother in so many other ways. She never apologised but years later, when she realised I'd been telling the truth, she said she just couldn't believe the workers could do such things. Such is the extreme hero worship we are taught to uphold them in. And this is a classic example of why hero worship is dangerous. Personally, I have never regarded any particular worker as a hero, so I would not be accused of hero worship in that regard. There are two well known definitions of the word hero: 1/ Someone with distinguished courage or ability, admired for brave deeds and noble qualities. 2/ A person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal. Would workers, all workers, qualify for that title? Some probably come close as models or ideals, but spiritually we aught to concentrate and focus on worshiping God not man, IMO. |
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2015 11:26:37 GMT -5
Yes, it's pretty bad that's for sure. And men wonder why women don't report rape. Too many of them still view it as the woman asking for it, something she did or didn't do, etc. Women who have been raped will always live with the wondering what they could have done differently. That's just a given. Getting past it is a lot of work. A lot of healing. And then you read stuff like this and you wonder if people will ever get it. I doubt I will ever be completely healed and I have forgiven. It's myself I have a very hard time forgiving for putting myself in a vulnerable position even though I was only 17 and pretty naive. Sometimes when I least expect it I go back to what happened how I felt and the fear I felt. I am pretty strong, but even I get overwhelmed sometimes when I least expect it. Reading stuff like this brings it back and it's really hard to understand how people can talk about demons etc. Religious beliefs can be so dangerous and this is a very prime example of it. I can relate the this. I think of myself as a victim AND a survivor. Most of the time I am a strong, independent person who has got on with her life. I have a good career, strong marriage, assets etc etc and I don't dwell on what happened. Therefore I am a survivor. But there are times when it all comes flooding back and I am a sobbing mess. I just can't completely forget it. I have tried numerous times to forgive them and think I have succeeded but then realise maybe I haven't. I would love to forgive and forget because I know what it says in the bible and also for my own peace of mind. Because I can't fully forget I feel I am still a victim at these times. I do know, however, that is wasn't my fault. I wasn't a precocious child. I was very shy. Both workers were involved for the whole year they were in our home. I couldn't get away from them and when I tried to tell my mother she told me if I told any more lies I would get a flogging. I was 11. I totally get what you're saying. I was older than you and it was a one time event so I can't begin to understand how much worse it was for you especially since the person who should have protected you didn't believe you. That by itself would have been traumatizing! Yes, like you I function quite well most of the time. I find when it does come all flooding back that I just allow it and work through it. At one point I tried to fight it and beat myself up for allowing it to get to me. Just made it worse. Now I allow myself to do what I need to do and it passes much quicker. I don't view myself as a victim just a survivor. I find the victim word gets me into a whole different mindset and it's not a good or strong one. I have forgiven but you never forget. To say the stuff that Nathan posted (which are someone else's words btw) you would have to have no clue and never experience a sexual assault or any other major trauma for that matter. You just can't separate the two easily. My heart goes out to those who were in situations where they couldn't escape and the abuse went on and on. Mine was something I could get away from though I wasn't sure I would because there was a gun involved. But I did get away and I didn't have to face the fear of it day after day from someone that others trusted. Big hugs and know that you are amazing. |
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2015 11:42:47 GMT -5
Nathan means well. He's made it clear that he doesn't condone abuse of any kind but he is strong in his beliefs in some things but this is too sensitive a topic for him to go saying forgive, get over it and other things which shows this is a topic he does not understand. The severity of abuse, relationship of abuser and their victim and other factors also contribute to the severity of symptoms. I agree victims are survivors which is a more powerful word but I do not feel comfortable saying Noels survivors rather than his victims. There are times when we use the word victim and times when we use survivors, depending on the context. How is 'survivors' a more powerful word if it means you were a victim? If someone is the victim of abuse why would you want to characterize them as something else? Being a victim does not make a person a survivor. Or perhaps you are saying that because you have been victimized you do not want to go through life in the role of a victim but would rather go through life in the role of a survivor? In either case, does re-branding change anything? It did for me personally. The word victim seemed to hold me back and keep me in a powerless mindset. The word survivor (and yes they are just words) meant something different to me and helped me move from believing I was powerless to a position of empowerment. Being in a position where you had no control for various reasons can keep you in that kind of a mindset if you're not careful. So for me, the word survivor helped me, made me feel stronger and more able to heal. It made me realize I did have the power to overcome what had traumatized me. So I guess it's the meaning we give to words that makes the difference and it's likely a personal preference. I have found though, that those I have worked with that view themselves as survivors have a better chance at healing than those who are caught in the 'I am a victim' mindset. It's a subtle difference but it does seem to make a difference. |
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2015 12:25:10 GMT -5
I totally get what you're saying. I was older than you and it was a one time event so I can't begin to understand how much worse it was for you especially since the person who should have protected you didn't believe you. That by itself would have been traumatizing! Yes, like you I function quite well most of the time. I find when it does come all flooding back that I just allow it and work through it. At one point I tried to fight it and beat myself up for allowing it to get to me. Just made it worse. Now I allow myself to do what I need to do and it passes much quicker. I don't view myself as a victim just a survivor. I find the victim word gets me into a whole different mindset and it's not a good or strong one. I have forgiven but you never forget. To say the stuff that Nathan posted (which are someone else's words btw) you would have to have no clue and never experience a sexual assault or any other major trauma for that matter. You just can't separate the two easily. My heart goes out to those who were in situations where they couldn't escape and the abuse went on and on. Mine was something I could get away from though I wasn't sure I would because there was a gun involved. But I did get away and I didn't have to face the fear of it day after day from someone that others trusted. Big hugs and know that you are amazing.
You have no clue what I have been through. Each abused case is different from another but the traumatic/depression/suicidal feelings are the same. I posted article about demons and the work of the flesh go together because I had some similar experiences and I agree with what they wrote is correct. We are NOT dealing with only humans wickedness but rather a more EVIL and DARKER force. I know what the victims go through, and the mind set of the abusers because I have been reading what make them ticks.
There is hope and Life for the victims and abusers. Both are victims. The abusers were victims themselves, someone had sexual abused them, so they became abusers to others.
Nathan, those were not your words but you believe them. Basically you are agreeing with someone that says someone who has been raped/molested is demon possessed if they don't just forgive and get over it. That is a dangerous thing to be saying and it is not true. I haven't said anything about you, I have commented on what you have copied and pasted that someone else said. I totally disagree with it, think it is very dangerous to be saying it and feel sorry for anyone that would believe it. I am not questioning what 'you have been through'. I am questioning your understanding of what was happening if you believe it is due to demons. By believing that these things are because the abuser is demon possessed is taking away the responsibility of the actions of the abuser. How can anyone change if they think it's not their fault? Then to go on and accuse those who have been abused and can't get over it immediately by forgiving and forgetting, as also being possessed by demons! That is totally messed up! If this is how you are advising people in this situation just know that you are doing far more harm than good and I don't think that is what you want to do knowing you are a kind hearted person. |
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Post by mdm on Apr 7, 2015 12:26:33 GMT -5
And this is a classic example of why hero worship is dangerous. Personally, I have never regarded any particular worker as a hero, so I would not be accused of hero worship in that regard. There are two well known definitions of the word hero: 1/ Someone with distinguished courage or ability, admired for brave deeds and noble qualities. 2/ A person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal. Would workers, all workers, qualify for that title? Some probably come close as models or ideals, but spiritually we aught to concentrate and focus on worshiping God not man, IMO. They wouldn't call themselves 'heroes,' but they do call themselves the 'anointed ones.' When we talked to 2 overseers about CSA, we were told that they (the workers, or perhaps only senior workers?) are the anointed ones. The implication was that we shouldn't question or doubt them, but respect them and their decisions because of their God-give place and authority over the church. If one does not respect them and their decisions, they are rebelling against the 'anointed ones' and ultimately against God who anointed them. Regular church members didn't come up with this doctrine. It was cooked up in overseers' get-togethers and is served whenever they are questioned, and at every convention and some Gospel meetings preventatively. Most friends eat it up without questioning the ingredients or their effect. The brew keeps them from using their own judgment and following their own conscience and makes them good subjects that never rebel against decisions of their anointed leaders. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 12:55:58 GMT -5
The power the "truth" has over you as a victim is huge! I was a victim not by a worker or one of the friends, but the shame of admitting it was as painful because of what the workers and friends would think of me or my family. I did not want my parents to be blamed. I did not want to bring shame on my brother who was in the work. It took years of therapy and becoming very disillusioned with the workers and friends before I ever admitted to anyone about my abuse.
I firmly think I could have gotten help for my depression long before I did, if I had not been raised in "truth". I might not have gotten to the point of wanting to kill myself, if the people were looked on with compassion and love instead of condemnation.
I was told that I have brought shame on my family, because I have spoke out about abuse, by a brother worker. Another brother worker would not talk to me on the phone when he realized who I was, he had been very friendly when he thought he was talking to my mother-in-law. We share the same name.
My trust in God and understanding the need for forgiveness has only been strengthened since I left meeting. I have been able to forgive my abuser no thanks to any help from any worker, friend or family.
Kitten, I hope you will get the help you need to work through your anger and bitterness. Not for your abusers sake, but for your sake. Forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves with the help of God.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 12:57:56 GMT -5
Personally, I have never regarded any particular worker as a hero, so I would not be accused of hero worship in that regard. There are two well known definitions of the word hero: 1/ Someone with distinguished courage or ability, admired for brave deeds and noble qualities. 2/ A person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal. Would workers, all workers, qualify for that title? Some probably come close as models or ideals, but spiritually we aught to concentrate and focus on worshiping God not man, IMO. They wouldn't call themselves 'heroes,' but they do call themselves the 'anointed ones.' When we talked to 2 overseers about CSA, we were told that they (the workers, or perhaps only senior workers?) are the anointed ones. The implication was that we shouldn't question or doubt them, but respect them and their decisions because of their God-give place and authority over the church. If one does not respect them and their decisions, they are rebelling against the 'anointed ones' and ultimately against God who anointed them. Regular church members didn't come up with this doctrine. It was cooked up in overseers' get-togethers and is served whenever they are questioned, and at every convention and some Gospel meetings preventatively. Most friends eat it up without questioning the ingredients or their effect. The brew keeps them from using their own judgment and following their own conscience and makes them good subjects that never rebel against decisions of their anointed leaders. Are these self appointments and self anointments? I knew an "Arch Bishop" in the spiritual Baptist church,who is now deceased, who often claimed that he was God's anointed servant. This would seem to suggest that they are all God's anointed servants/ leaders by self appointment in all churches. |
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Post by xna on Apr 7, 2015 13:12:01 GMT -5
The Devil Made Me Do It: How Christianity Enables Sexual Abusers www.secularwoman.org/The_Devil_Made_Me_Do_It"... Growing up in fundamentalist Christianity I witnessed this attitude continually. Sin was something anyone could fall into or commit, and all sins were equal in the eyes of God - therefore, sexual abuse was just one more sin and victims were closely scrutinized to see if their actions had led someone to sin. As long as the sinner asked for forgiveness, all was well again and it was the victim’s responsibility to forgive their abuser or else they were sinning as well (along with the not infrequent insinuation that the victim was also somehow at fault for tempting the perpetrator)." |
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2015 14:25:16 GMT -5
You guys and gals have no clues who and what you're dealing with. You see the problems but don't know the ROOTS of the problem Pedophile, CSA, incest, all kinds of sexual perversion have been around for thousands and thousands of years.... It has been passing down many generations within the families. Their great, great grand parents, grand parents, parents to their children, etc.. Then they pass their sexual perversion on to others and on it goes. It has be STOPPED with and by someone in the line. (Genistar sexual abused story in Oregon) Pedophilia, incest, abuse, etc. and not inherited traits. (EDIT - Research is pointing to the conclusion that the tendency of pedophilia, as clinically defined, may indeed be inherited.) We are dealing with dysfunctional families. All have been shown many times over to be complete BS. Are you sure you do not mean Linda Wiegand?What life is in the blood? |
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2015 14:40:48 GMT -5
Rational, your questions, understand are from a human point of view... There's a bigger picture here.... Since you don't believe in God, Satan, demons, evil spirits... So, you're NOT going to understand or believe it. It is not a matter of understanding it. It is a matter of supporting what you are claiming as facts. |
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2015 15:40:40 GMT -5
It is not a matter of understanding it. It is a matter of supporting what you are claiming as facts. There are no facts that I see. You are just hoping they will pass as facts. It's taking the responsibility off the abuser and saying they couldn't help it when you believe it is Satan and demons Nathan. Don't you see the dangers of teaching such stuff? |
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Post by rational on Apr 7, 2015 15:41:37 GMT -5
It is not a matter of understanding it. It is a matter of supporting what you are claiming as facts. No, NathanB, you did not show any facts. You explained your beliefs. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Apr 7, 2015 15:43:06 GMT -5
Nathan, I like you and I admire you. One of the reasons is that no matter how much abuse you take, your responses are still gentle and kind. I normally don’t have a problem with other people’s beliefs (I have my own). However, I think why I have a push-back reaction when you ascribe sexual misconduct to demons, is that it seems to remove personal responsibility from the equation. I would think if the concept of “personal responsibility” was taken seriously, then all flavors of sexual misconduct would simply vanish. (Now, I could see if you took the same concept of personal responsibility and applied it to getting rid of the demons that cause sexual misconduct – and I suspect this might be your personal mindspace – then it could be equally effective for making a better and safer world for all. But I don’t think it works that way for most people.) One of (what I consider) the all-time great Bible verses is: Philippians 4:8 King James Version (KJV) 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. I think, if you were to apply this verse (to the best of your ability) to every moment of your waking life, that it would make the above references irrelevant to you. (I have given the same advice to Bert in the past.) I suspect it would also significantly increase the quality of your life. Then, if positive action on issues of sexual misconduct was still something that was laid upon your heart, I think you would be much more effective in what you do. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 7, 2015 16:00:22 GMT -5
This is incredibly sad. It's cases like this that workers and friends need to be made aware of to jolt them out of their little dream-world so they take action. I would like to know what overseers have done to reduce the chances of something like this happening again in the future. What do you think the overseers can do if the victims/guardians do not inform them? The root of the problem is that the victims, those responsible for the victims (their guardians), and anyone who has knowledge of the crime are not reporting them to the authorities. Are you saying that overseers should be informed via secular authorities? I did't mean that overseers should dispense justice. I meant that overseers as church leaders have a responsibility to change the church culture that enables the sexual abuse of children. |
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