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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2015 16:22:38 GMT -5
What do you think the overseers can do if the victims/guardians do not inform them? The root of the problem is that the victims, those responsible for the victims (their guardians), and anyone who has knowledge of the crime are not reporting them to the authorities. Are you saying that overseers should be informed via secular authorities? I did't mean that overseers should dispense justice. I meant that overseers as church leaders have a responsibility to change the church culture that enables the sexual abuse of children. You mean something as simple as standing up at convention and telling people there is a problem and if they know of anyone that needs to be reported to please contact the authorities immediately and also let us know so we can immediately take steps to remove them from the work until the investigation is over? |
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Post by kittens on Apr 7, 2015 17:10:44 GMT -5
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Post by snow on Apr 7, 2015 17:17:49 GMT -5
Here are a few things I learnt from personal experience which may help if you are trying to understand the mind of the abuser and the abused. 1. The senior worker told me it was 'our little secret' and if I tried to tell my mother or father he would hurt them and I didn't want that did I? This was the reason I waited until they'd left at the end of the year. 2. Both the senior and junior worker started telling everyone I told lies and I was a bit deluded. In fact I never told lies and most of the people who knew me knew I was probably too truthful. I think there might be a lot of perpetrators who start these mind games so the abused child starts to doubt themselves and if they do try to tell anyone they won't be believed. This wasn't the reason my mother didn't believe me because she said so. And before anyone asks the reason I didn't tell my father was because Mum was going to tell him to flog me. I thought if she didn't believe me he wouldn't either. I just want to make it clear that my parents were good decent people who were kind and loving. This reaction was very out of character and maybe that was why it was so hurtful. That is how powerful the hold is that the workers have over some of the friends. 3. After I told my mother and she didn't believe me I blocked the whole thing out of my mind subconsciously. It must have been the only way I could cope. But 2 years later it came flooding back in minute detail. A lot of the friends keep saying "Oh that happened 20 years ago. Why can't they get over it." Some people may be so traumatised that they block it out of their mind for nearly 20 years but when it finally comes back - which it always seems to eventually - it feels like it only happened yesterday. Another reason they may not tell anyone straight away is because they may feel dirty and unclean and ashamed of themselves and not want anyone to know. It takes a long time to feel strong enough to say anything. Someone said that a lot of the friends and workers read this board without posting. I hope this will give them a small perspective of how 'the game is played' and they will be a bit more understanding of the survivors. That technique has been used in the States too. Make the abused look like they are deluded and liars is a ploy and it's quite effective and quite disgusting. Yes we can block it to cope, been there, done that. But it can feel like yesterday when it does come flooding back in. Thank you for your very good explanation of how it is within the group. Mine never happened within the group so it's not really relevant and I was older (17). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 7, 2015 17:49:16 GMT -5
To me, exposing these horrid things is about as far as non-members (non-professing in two and two ministry vernacular) can go unless within statute of limitations. Nothing said nor done here can likely change what is thought, and done within that hierarchy, despite the few steps that seem to have been taken.
One time an honored elder made reference to such a person and condition, quoting what David expressed about not doing to "God's anointed." At the time, I remember thinking, "well, this is neither that time nor place, so how does it even apply?" Sadly, I was just an infant worker, not allowed such thinking nor freedom of expression.
No matter what is said/done here resulting in improvement, that religion is the workers to direct and control! Thus, anyone not in agreement must simply vote with their feet, no matter what the cost to themselves personally. Surely, none should believe there is any organized group of believers anywhere that has the right to the concept of apostolic succession, and the authority that concept ends up bestowing upon said group(s).
"The Kingdom of God is within you." (Smile, and hopefully me also?)
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Post by fixit on Apr 7, 2015 18:02:47 GMT -5
Here are a few things I learnt from personal experience which may help if you are trying to understand the mind of the abuser and the abused. 1. The senior worker told me it was 'our little secret' and if I tried to tell my mother or father he would hurt them and I didn't want that did I? This was the reason I waited until they'd left at the end of the year. 2. Both the senior and junior worker started telling everyone I told lies and I was a bit deluded. In fact I never told lies and most of the people who knew me knew I was probably too truthful. I think there might be a lot of perpetrators who start these mind games so the abused child starts to doubt themselves and if they do try to tell anyone they won't be believed. This wasn't the reason my mother didn't believe me because she said so. And before anyone asks the reason I didn't tell my father was because Mum was going to tell him to flog me. I thought if she didn't believe me he wouldn't either. I just want to make it clear that my parents were good decent people who were kind and loving. This reaction was very out of character and maybe that was why it was so hurtful. That is how powerful the hold is that the workers have over some of the friends. 3. After I told my mother and she didn't believe me I blocked the whole thing out of my mind subconsciously. It must have been the only way I could cope. But 2 years later it came flooding back in minute detail. A lot of the friends keep saying "Oh that happened 20 years ago. Why can't they get over it." Some people may be so traumatised that they block it out of their mind for nearly 20 years but when it finally comes back - which it always seems to eventually - it feels like it only happened yesterday. Another reason they may not tell anyone straight away is because they may feel dirty and unclean and ashamed of themselves and not want anyone to know. It takes a long time to feel strong enough to say anything. Someone said that a lot of the friends and workers read this board without posting. I hope this will give them a small perspective of how 'the game is played' and they will be a bit more understanding of the survivors. The sexual predators' behaviour was typical, your response as a victim/survivor was typical, and the response of system-brainwashed people was typical. This is all "CSA 101" for religious groups. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 7, 2015 18:39:34 GMT -5
Are you saying that overseers should be informed via secular authorities? I did't mean that overseers should dispense justice. I meant that overseers as church leaders have a responsibility to change the church culture that enables the sexual abuse of children. You mean something as simple as standing up at convention and telling people there is a problem and if they know of anyone that needs to be reported to please contact the authorities immediately and also let us know so we can immediately take steps to remove them from the work until the investigation is over? That would show that they understand the problem and are willing to protect the fellowship's children from further abuse. Here's an example: wingsfortruth.info/responding-to-csa/sermon-by-graham-thompson/Kittens has done an excellent job of describing the professing culture that needs to change: Here are a few things I learnt from personal experience which may help if you are trying to understand the mind of the abuser and the abused. 1. The senior worker told me it was 'our little secret' and if I tried to tell my mother or father he would hurt them and I didn't want that did I? This was the reason I waited until they'd left at the end of the year. 2. Both the senior and junior worker started telling everyone I told lies and I was a bit deluded. In fact I never told lies and most of the people who knew me knew I was probably too truthful. I think there might be a lot of perpetrators who start these mind games so the abused child starts to doubt themselves and if they do try to tell anyone they won't be believed. This wasn't the reason my mother didn't believe me because she said so. And before anyone asks the reason I didn't tell my father was because Mum was going to tell him to flog me. I thought if she didn't believe me he wouldn't either. I just want to make it clear that my parents were good decent people who were kind and loving. This reaction was very out of character and maybe that was why it was so hurtful. That is how powerful the hold is that the workers have over some of the friends. 3. After I told my mother and she didn't believe me I blocked the whole thing out of my mind subconsciously. It must have been the only way I could cope. But 2 years later it came flooding back in minute detail. A lot of the friends keep saying "Oh that happened 20 years ago. Why can't they get over it." Some people may be so traumatised that they block it out of their mind for nearly 20 years but when it finally comes back - which it always seems to eventually - it feels like it only happened yesterday. Another reason they may not tell anyone straight away is because they may feel dirty and unclean and ashamed of themselves and not want anyone to know. It takes a long time to feel strong enough to say anything. Someone said that a lot of the friends and workers read this board without posting. I hope this will give them a small perspective of how 'the game is played' and they will be a bit more understanding of the survivors. |
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 8:25:46 GMT -5
What do you think the overseers can do if the victims/guardians do not inform them? The root of the problem is that the victims, those responsible for the victims (their guardians), and anyone who has knowledge of the crime are not reporting them to the authorities. Are you saying that overseers should be informed via secular authorities? I did't mean that overseers should dispense justice. I meant that overseers as church leaders have a responsibility to change the church culture that enables the sexual abuse of children. This is not a church issue. It is a criminal issue. The church can take steps but unless the victims or their guardians are willing to bring the charges to the authorities little can be done. In the past there have been cases where the victims/guardians did bring the charges to the overseers but they were persuaded not to bring the charges to the authorities. That is why it is necessary to eliminate the role of the overseers when trying to recuse cases of child abuse. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 14:17:48 GMT -5
Are you saying that overseers should be informed via secular authorities? I did't mean that overseers should dispense justice. I meant that overseers as church leaders have a responsibility to change the church culture that enables the sexual abuse of children. This is not a church issue. It is a criminal issue. The church can take steps but unless the victims or their guardians are willing to bring the charges to the authorities little can be done. In the past there have been cases where the victims/guardians did bring the charges to the overseers but they were persuaded not to bring the charges to the authorities. That is why it is necessary to eliminate the role of the overseers when trying to recuse cases of child abuse. It is also very much a church issue in that the church should take the necessary and important steps to at least try to stop it happening- shut the door of the stable before the horses bolt. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 15:54:53 GMT -5
Are you saying that overseers should be informed via secular authorities? I did't mean that overseers should dispense justice. I meant that overseers as church leaders have a responsibility to change the church culture that enables the sexual abuse of children. This is not a church issue. It is a criminal issue. The church can take steps but unless the victims or their guardians are willing to bring the charges to the authorities little can be done. In the past there have been cases where the victims/guardians did bring the charges to the overseers but they were persuaded not to bring the charges to the authorities. That is why it is necessary to eliminate the role of the overseers when trying to recuse cases of child abuse. There's a criminal issue and a church issue. The church issue is that church culture should not provide a haven for sexual predators to operate with impunity. |
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 18:03:15 GMT -5
It is also very much a church issue in that the church should take the necessary and important steps to at least try to stop it happening- shut the door of the stable before the horses bolt. Have you worked with offenders a lot? There is a reason why they are almost always caught after their first offense - they are able to fool most of the people at least some of the time. I am not saying people should just give up. But the solution lies with the parents and their children. Certainly the church can do what it can but given that the majority of child abuse happens in the home unless the church is there stopping it from happening is going to be tough. The best the church can do is tell members to report any cases of child abuse they know about or suspect to the authorities. Too many times the people in organizations who were supposed to be the ones stopping child abuse from happening were themselves offenders. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 18:28:30 GMT -5
It is also very much a church issue in that the church should take the necessary and important steps to at least try to stop it happening- shut the door of the stable before the horses bolt. Have you worked with offenders a lot? There is a reason why they are almost always caught after their first offense - they are able to fool most of the people at least some of the time. I am not saying people should just give up. But the solution lies with the parents and their children. Certainly the church can do what it can but given that the majority of child abuse happens in the home unless the church is there stopping it from happening is going to be tough. The best the church can do is tell members to report any cases of child abuse they know about or suspect to the authorities. Too many times the people in organizations who were supposed to be the ones stopping child abuse from happening were themselves offenders. Yes I am aware of that, it is not the easiest area to deal with, there is a lot of deceit, fear, intimidation, shame and embarrassment, and denial involved and deep long lasting hurt/ damage to the victims; and nowadays a life of fear for the abusers as the nets close in, the statue of limitations are being bypassed in many cases in some areas. Yes I am aware that it exists in families and households as well, family loyalty and shame is sometimes a barrier to exposure. |
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 18:36:00 GMT -5
Yes I am aware of that, it is not the easiest area to deal with, there is a lot of deceit, fear, intimidation, shame and embarrassment, and denial involved and deep long lasting hurt/ damage to the victims; and nowadays a life of fear for the abusers as the nets close in, the statue of limitations are being bypassed in many cases in some areas. Yes I am aware that it exists in families and households as well, family loyalty and shame is sometimes a barrier to exposure. How does this make it a church issue? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2015 18:54:48 GMT -5
Yes I am aware of that, it is not the easiest area to deal with, there is a lot of deceit, fear, intimidation, shame and embarrassment, and denial involved and deep long lasting hurt/ damage to the victims; and nowadays a life of fear for the abusers as the nets close in, the statue of limitations are being bypassed in many cases in some areas. Yes I am aware that it exists in families and households as well, family loyalty and shame is sometimes a barrier to exposure. How does this make it a church issue? Well in my opinion the church in general should have an interest in the welfare, well being of the flock as brothers and sisters in Christ. United as one in Christ. One bad apple can spoil the whole barrel of spiritual and moral reputation by association. So prevention by discouragement is better than cure. IMO. |
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Post by fixit on Apr 8, 2015 18:57:42 GMT -5
It is also very much a church issue in that the church should take the necessary and important steps to at least try to stop it happening- shut the door of the stable before the horses bolt. Have you worked with offenders a lot? There is a reason why they are almost always caught after their first offense - they are able to fool most of the people at least some of the time. I am not saying people should just give up. But the solution lies with the parents and their children. Certainly the church can do what it can but given that the majority of child abuse happens in the home unless the church is there stopping it from happening is going to be tough. The best the church can do is tell members to report any cases of child abuse they know about or suspect to the authorities. Too many times the people in organizations who were supposed to be the ones stopping child abuse from happening were themselves offenders. That would be a big step forward for the church. |
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 18:59:44 GMT -5
kittens has done an excellent job of describing the professing culture that needs to change: This is an excellent description of the progression of child abuse. How is it part of the F&W culture any more than it is part of the child abuse problem? Abusers frequently characterize the abuse as "our secret" and keep it a secret with rewards and threats. Parents often do not believe their children and children are frequently afraid to report abuse. Discrediting the victim is standard operating procedure for abusers. What part of the F&W culture do you feel needs to change that would have made a difference to kittens? If the workers are criminals they need to be reported. They are also humans and need to report cases of abuse that the know of or suspect. Making the F&W organization, or any church, the scapegoat does little to solve the problem. |
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 19:06:15 GMT -5
How does this make it a church issue? Well in my opinion the church in general should have an interest in the welfare, well being of the flock as brothers and sisters in Christ. United as one in Christ. One bad apple can spoil the whole barrel of spiritual and moral reputation by association. So prevention by discouragement is better than cure. IMO. In my opinion everyone should have an interest in the welfare and well being of other humans. That would be a human issue. I guess as a subset of humans it could be considered a church issue. Do you really think offenders can simply be discouraged from abusing children? It sounds like a lot of the interest here is in protecting the image of the organization. |
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Post by rational on Apr 8, 2015 19:07:08 GMT -5
Have you worked with offenders a lot? There is a reason why they are almost always caught after their first offense - they are able to fool most of the people at least some of the time. I am not saying people should just give up. But the solution lies with the parents and their children. Certainly the church can do what it can but given that the majority of child abuse happens in the home unless the church is there stopping it from happening is going to be tough. The best the church can do is tell members to report any cases of child abuse they know about or suspect to the authorities. Too many times the people in organizations who were supposed to be the ones stopping child abuse from happening were themselves offenders. That would be a big step forward for the church. I agree. Where is snow with that great paragraph she wrote? |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2015 3:52:24 GMT -5
Well in my opinion the church in general should have an interest in the welfare, well being of the flock as brothers and sisters in Christ. United as one in Christ. One bad apple can spoil the whole barrel of spiritual and moral reputation by association. So prevention by discouragement is better than cure. IMO. In my opinion everyone should have an interest in the welfare and well being of other humans. That would be a human issue. I guess as a subset of humans it could be considered a church issue. Do you really think offenders can simply be discouraged from abusing children? It sounds like a lot of the interest here is in protecting the image of the organization. Offenders suffer an illness in my opinion and they have urges which they seek to satisfy, but others can and should make it very difficult for them by reducing the opportunities for them to abuse, educating themselves and their children about abuse in advanced preparation. Somewhat Similar to protecting ourselves and our properties from thieves; thieves cannot be easily discouraged either, but we don't throw our hands up in the air and give up and say "heck, what the hell." There is nothing wrong with protecting the interests of the organization and the best way to do that would be to take the necessary steps to wipe out abuse altogether even if it means exposing abusers and putting them where they should be, i.e somewhere where they can no longer abuse. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 9, 2015 23:44:39 GMT -5
Another thread possessed by demons...can someone cast them out please?
And also update me so I don't have to read pages...any news about whether Harvey is attending/taking part in meetings or making apologies?
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Post by fixit on Apr 9, 2015 23:49:28 GMT -5
Another thread possessed by demons...can someone cast them out please? And also update me so I don't have to read pages...any news about whether Harvey is attending/taking part in meetings or making apologies? Yes, ideally this thread should have the demon possession posts excised and cast out to another thread. "Noel Harvey ExWorker/Convicted Child Sex Offender rebaptised" is too important as a topic to be immersed in demon posts. |
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Post by curlywurlysammagee on Apr 10, 2015 1:17:07 GMT -5
The baptism of this sex offender shows how morally bankrupt the heirarchy of the 2x2's are and in particular Clyde Mackay.
That people give any credence to their preaching is beyond me.
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Post by fixit on Apr 10, 2015 1:20:56 GMT -5
Yes, ideally this thread should have the demon possession posts excised and cast out to another thread. "Noel Harvey ExWorker/Convicted Child Sex Offender rebaptised" is too important as a topic to be immersed in demon posts.
So, do you have or know of the latest news on Noel these days? How is he doing? What are his testimonies like? If I did I would post it in a new thread I think. This thread has too many demons. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 10, 2015 1:57:02 GMT -5
Sorry guys my fault  Fixit is right it is a very important topic and people need to be asking questions of Clyde Mackay I believe. |
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Post by mod5 on Apr 10, 2015 2:35:43 GMT -5
Another thread possessed by demons...can someone cast them out please? And also update me so I don't have to read pages...any news about whether Harvey is attending/taking part in meetings or making apologies? Yes, ideally this thread should have the demon possession posts excised and cast out to another thread. "Noel Harvey ExWorker/Convicted Child Sex Offender rebaptised" is too important as a topic to be immersed in demon posts. Good idea fixit! Too often threads get off topic and then get difficult to follow A new tread has been created and existing posts moved |
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Post by Greg on Apr 10, 2015 2:58:54 GMT -5
Another thread possessed by demons...can someone cast them out please? Should be on a sub-board. |
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Post by faune on Apr 10, 2015 3:32:05 GMT -5
Wise words. I think we all need to read some of the first posts more carefully: 1) In 2003, he faced 19 child sex offences relating to the period 1977 to 1995 Any mention of additional offenses? Twenty years is a long time. 2) Harvey was a minister in a religious sect... during the 1970’s and early 1980’s. He won't be going to overseas conventions as a worker. 3) He was convicted for these child sex offences,... (of) children aged between 5 and 14 years old, and was gaoled. He has served his time. 4) ...while not permitted to attend local sect fellowship meetings (presumably because he is on the child sex offender’s register) ... He's not going to meetings. 5) Fred: According to my sources Mr Harvey is suffering from a degenerative illness ( Parkinson's or Alzheimers) and appears older than 70.  6) ...members and former members are extremely angry that Mr Harvey could be re-instated by the sect ... What does "reinstated" mean? And who said that? And does re-baptism have any bearing on the restrictions he has legally (on a register of offenders)? 7) ...when he has not expressed complete remorse to all his victims.... How was this determined? It's true we should consider these words of Jesus: Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift. Matt 5:23-24 But before we try to take the mote out of his eye, we need to get the beam out of our own. In other words, does each of US ask forgiveness from someone whom we have offended before we come to worship before God? Emy ~ Thanks for sharing the specific details about this case earlier on Page 3. However, there's one thing I'm curious about and that is how much jail time did Noel Harvey actually serve for his 19 offenses of child sexual abuse, since this issue didn't come up in the Court system until 2003? Hopefully, just because he got the workers' approval for rebaptism, he won't be allowed back in meetings around children again, due to CSA restrictions on child molesters? If so, perhaps the overseers need to spend some time behind bars themselves? Just my thoughts!
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2015 6:45:02 GMT -5
If people weren't afraid of a lost eternity for reporting some senior to authorities, the culture would change. I don't think CSA is any worse in Truth than in other group. The problem is the failure to report.Small closed sects seem to have a lower failure to report than larger mainstream groups. It isn't the prevalence of CSA as much as the low rate of reporting. It is a failure to go against the leadership on such matters. And this needs to change.
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Post by withlove on Apr 11, 2015 1:38:02 GMT -5
kittens has done an excellent job of describing the professing culture that needs to change: This is an excellent description of the progression of child abuse. How is it part of the F&W culture any more than it is part of the child abuse problem? Abusers frequently characterize the abuse as "our secret" and keep it a secret with rewards and threats. Parents often do not believe their children and children are frequently afraid to report abuse. Discrediting the victim is standard operating procedure for abusers. What part of the F&W culture do you feel needs to change that would have made a difference to kittens? If the workers are criminals they need to be reported. They are also humans and need to report cases of abuse that the know of or suspect. Making the F&W organization, or any church, the scapegoat does little to solve the problem. Changing the culture.... 1. As you say, parents or other adults in the church often do not believe the children...why is that? Because they believe that the workers are good...elevated in goodness even above the innocence of their children. This is a cultural thing that should change. 2. "Children are afraid to report abuse." I would add to this that adults are often afraid too. And this is a cultural problem. They are afraid of punishment for being honest and looking for help, for good reason. 3. Like you suggest, people need to start taking the issue to the police. But there's a culture problem preventing them, which fixit has tried to explain. There are consequences of losing status or membership if someone reports a worker to the police. Status and membership are pretty important when you believe that membership=salvation and being in the inner circle of most compliant saints gets you rewards on earth and in heaven. Taking all blame away from the church is problematic. |
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Fixit is right it is a very important topic and people need to be asking questions of Clyde Mackay I believe. 
