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Post by xna on Apr 2, 2015 9:06:28 GMT -5
The part on Acts 19 "When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied." This was the verse the workers used to explain you may now give your testimony in meeting since you are now baptized by us. Also used as the reason I needed to be rebaptized was the worldly preachers were not sent by God and so they did not have the holy spirt like you read there. PS: I never did speak in tounges and the worker skipped over that explanation. So people in your part of the world can't even speak in mtgs until after they are baptized? WOW! In most or all of America those who have professed can speak in mtg, but cannot take communion until after baptism. Normally you start giving your testimony after you professed and after you were baptized. It was not prohibited to speak before, but understood this is the right order of things. You needed the holy ghost to teach you and this comes during baptism, when you are reborn. So it was important to get baptized soon after you professed. This was normally done at convention. Also baptism must be done in a stream. You had to be dunked backwards like you were being put in the grave, then rise up from the grave as a new person in christ. After baptism you are a new “full member” able to fully take part in the meetings. At this point you are a "candidate to be saved" and part of the body of christ and the one true church. It was explained to me at baptism you received the holy ghost, die to your old self and are reborn. After baptism you could testify and partake of the emblems, as after baptism you are then led by the holy spirt, as is clearly explained in Acts 19. Acts 19 King James Version (KJV) 19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. BTW I was baptized in the name of the “father son and holy ghost” not in the “name of the lord”  |
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raheli
New Member
I was here before as Shosho. Lost my account info. Nothing scintillating to add, then or now.
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Post by raheli on Apr 2, 2015 10:57:37 GMT -5
Yes, I know but the Law says the pedophile can have a normal life AFTER they had served their time in prison. So, ALL we, the workers and the friends can do is monitoring, watch their movement when they attend the conventions or our 2x2 fellowship meetings and report to the law when they touch or abuse any child again. The next time they will NOT so lucky to get out of prison, they might get a taste of what is like to be a victims themselves. That's not really correct NathanB. A pedophile who has served his/her time in prison is NOT free to have a free, normal life. They are registered sex offenders, with limitations (according to the law) of where they can live (not next to a school, playground etc) and where they can go (conventions should be off limits, as just like a playground, it is a place where children normally gather). HOWEVER, there is no one "policing" these people, ensuring that they follow their terms of being a Registered Sex Offender...and this is where the workers SHOULD be involved, making sure that people like Noel Harvey, Darren Briggs, George Scandalis NEVER set foot in a meeting, or convention again, or anyplace else under "their jurisdiction" where innocent children are gathered. |
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Post by snow on Apr 2, 2015 12:09:53 GMT -5
Well based on the views of some on this thread it isn't much wonder survivors of CSA still continue to grow in ranks.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 19:21:36 GMT -5
my understanding is that Jesus wants us to take these things to the Father, but then again we would have to have faith and trust to do that I understand that it is the teaching of the workers that we shouldn't try to correct wrongs in the church but only pray about them. But that is not the teaching of the Bible. so you feel that we can fix things better than the Father? you will also find it is the will of God and of Jesus to take them to Him first but if you trust more in the fallible than the infallible go ahead |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 19:24:04 GMT -5
my understanding is that Jesus wants us to take these things to the Father, but then again we would have to have faith and trust to do that This should have been taken to the Police in the 70's when it was known by the Head Workers of NSW what Mr Harvey was doing. Here we are in 2015 and people still think that this should be taken to Jesus ! He broke the Law, done his time but has not apologized to his victims, now has been re-baptised ! So what would the view be if some of the victims wanted to be re-baptised ! why would any of the victims need rebaptising? |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 19:53:11 GMT -5
It seems to me that, in order to be baptized, a person has to be judged by some human to be already worthy. Or maybe there should be a vote by the people?
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Post by kittens on Apr 2, 2015 20:04:50 GMT -5
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2015 20:08:31 GMT -5
This should have been taken to the Police in the 70's when it was known by the Head Workers of NSW what Mr Harvey was doing. Here we are in 2015 and people still think that this should be taken to Jesus ! He broke the Law, done his time but has not apologized to his victims, now has been re-baptised ! So what would the view be if some of the victims wanted to be re-baptised ! why would any of the victims need rebaptising? Maybe you better ask the Head Worker of NSW that question Virgo !!! After all a lot of Mr Harvey's victims left "The Way" and according to the workers are lost !! So for them to be part of "The Way" again they would have to be re-baptised, but of course they would have to grow their hair & stop wearing jewellery to be baptised .... yet some one who has served time for molesting them is re-baptised !!! |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 20:30:22 GMT -5
To answer Cherie Kropp's question - in Australia when you profess you can pray and speak in meetings and choose the first or second hymn. When you are baptised you can take the bread and wine and choose the last hymn (one suitable for the bread and wine). If you are male and baptised you are able to give thanks for either the bread or wine. I haven't been to meetings in every state or area in Australia but to my knowledge it is the same procedure. you don't have to be a male in order to give thanks for the emblems |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 20:31:55 GMT -5
why would any of the victims need rebaptising? Maybe you better ask the Head Worker of NSW that question Virgo !!! After all a lot of Mr Harvey's victims left "The Way" and according to the workers are lost !! So for them to be part of "The Way" again they would have to be re-baptised, but of course they would have to grow their hair & stop wearing jewellery to be baptised .... yet some one who has served time for molesting them is re-baptised !!! if they left then that is right |
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Post by kittens on Apr 2, 2015 20:47:24 GMT -5
To answer Cherie Kropp's question - in Australia when you profess you can pray and speak in meetings and choose the first or second hymn. When you are baptised you can take the bread and wine and choose the last hymn (one suitable for the bread and wine). If you are male and baptised you are able to give thanks for either the bread or wine. I haven't been to meetings in every state or area in Australia but to my knowledge it is the same procedure. you don't have to be a male in order to give thanks for the emblems 1 |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 2, 2015 20:49:57 GMT -5
my understanding is that Jesus wants us to take these things to the Father, but then again we would have to have faith and trust to do that This should have been taken to the Police in the 70's when it was known by the Head Workers of NSW what Mr Harvey was doing. Here we are in 2015 and people still think that this should be taken to Jesus ! He broke the Law, done his time but has not apologized to his victims, now has been re-baptised ! So what would the view be if some of the victims wanted to be re-baptised ! Why would victims need another baptism? |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 2, 2015 20:51:18 GMT -5
you don't have to be a male in order to give thanks for the emblems The only time a woman is allowed to give thanks for the bread or wine is when there is either no baptised men in the meeting or if there is only one and he gives thanks for one and a baptised woman gives thanks for the other. This is very legalistic |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2015 20:53:53 GMT -5
Maybe you better ask the Head Worker of NSW that question Virgo !!! After all a lot of Mr Harvey's victims left "The Way" and according to the workers are lost !! So for them to be part of "The Way" again they would have to be re-baptised, but of course they would have to grow their hair & stop wearing jewellery to be baptised .... yet some one who has served time for molesting them is re-baptised !!! if they left then that is right Virgo are you for real !!! Why do you think they left ? Or do you think its right for a worker to abuse children/ girls ? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2015 20:56:55 GMT -5
This should have been taken to the Police in the 70's when it was known by the Head Workers of NSW what Mr Harvey was doing. Here we are in 2015 and people still think that this should be taken to Jesus ! He broke the Law, done his time but has not apologized to his victims, now has been re-baptised ! So what would the view be if some of the victims wanted to be re-baptised ! Why would victims need another baptism?Bubbles I have answered this on previous page |
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Post by mdm on Apr 2, 2015 21:02:55 GMT -5
To answer Cherie Kropp's question - in Australia when you profess you can pray and speak in meetings and choose the first or second hymn. When you are baptised you can take the bread and wine and choose the last hymn (one suitable for the bread and wine). If you are male and baptised you are able to give thanks for either the bread or wine. I haven't been to meetings in every state or area in Australia but to my knowledge it is the same procedure. you don't have to be a male in order to give thanks for the emblems Same in the US. |
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Post by kittens on Apr 2, 2015 21:06:37 GMT -5
The only time a woman is allowed to give thanks for the bread or wine is when there is either no baptised men in the meeting or if there is only one and he gives thanks for one and a baptised woman gives thanks for the other. This is very legalistic 1 |
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Post by mdm on Apr 2, 2015 21:07:39 GMT -5
you don't have to be a male in order to give thanks for the emblems The only time a woman is allowed to give thanks for the bread or wine is when there is either no baptised men in the meeting or if there is only one and he gives thanks for one and a baptised woman gives thanks for the other. It sounds more conservative than in the US. There are no such rules here, although it's mostly done by men. Women are just less likely to volunteer, perhaps because they weren't always encouraged to? |
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Post by kittens on Apr 2, 2015 21:27:46 GMT -5
The only time a woman is allowed to give thanks for the bread or wine is when there is either no baptised men in the meeting or if there is only one and he gives thanks for one and a baptised woman gives thanks for the other. It sounds more conservative than in the US. There are no such rules here, although it's mostly done by men. Women are just less likely to volunteer, perhaps because they weren't always encouraged to? 1
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Post by mdm on Apr 2, 2015 21:34:16 GMT -5
I understand that it is the teaching of the workers that we shouldn't try to correct wrongs in the church but only pray about them. But that is not the teaching of the Bible. so you feel that we can fix things better than the Father? you will also find it is the will of God and of Jesus to take them to Him first but if you trust more in the fallible than the infallible go ahead When churches mentioned in the NT had problems, they weren't told to just pray and wait for God to fix them, but to do something about them and even chastised for not doing anything but tolerating things not appropriate for the church. Faith doesn't take away our responsibility to do something, but helps us to fulfill it. Of course, the doctrine of not doing anything but praying has been invented in order to keep people in submission and to keep them from openly disagreeing with questionable and even harmful decisions of the ministry. This is very clearly spelled out in Dale Shultz's letter: "Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne. In the final analysis, there are some things that we just have to leave in his hands. I believe that for anyone to try to force changes now, after all that has been done to bring issues into focus, that it could mean just being very much out of our place." |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2015 21:35:36 GMT -5
if they left then that is right Virgo are you for real !!! Why do you think they left ? Or do you think its right for a worker to abuse children/ girls ? regardless of why or how they left they left are you weird to think i think its right for a worker to abuse children/ girls? |
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Post by withlove on Apr 2, 2015 21:49:48 GMT -5
Prayer is rarely a bad idea, although there are often times when we act in the moment and the Spirit is with us, along with our foundation of values. Faith and trust are also helpful when taking a stand...knowing that the Father will be present, despite whatever opposition we encounter. And courage and grace and humility and the willingness to let prayer empower us to do what needs to be done. that will only have power if it is within the will of God What I meant by "prayer empowering us" was God empowering us through prayer. And before that I mentioned acting with the Spirit's guidance/support. So that would be within the will of God. Jesus said he didn't *condemn* the adultress (although let's be real, her crime did far less damage than an abuser would) I don't intend to condemn anyone to death or hell either. I hope the man has full restoration in God's eyes. There could be no problem with letting him listen in to convention via phone if he likes. Also, Jesus didn't say to not remove the mote. He said don't do it before you remove your own beam. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 2, 2015 22:03:07 GMT -5
Prayer is rarely a bad idea, although there are often times when we act in the moment and the Spirit is with us, along with our foundation of values. Faith and trust are also helpful when taking a stand...knowing that the Father will be present, despite whatever opposition we encounter. And courage and grace and humility and the willingness to let prayer empower us to do what needs to be done. that will only have power if it is within the will of God What I meant by the Spirit and God being with us was that they would be in agreement with us. And by prayer empowering us, I meant God empowering us through prayer. So in the context I am speaking of, "it" would be in the will of God. God has a history of showing himself through his people. The bible is thick with it. People moved by God's voice to do. Also people moved by the love for others which God has put in them to act and speak. I don't have to wait and ask God if it would be right to empathize with victims of trauma because I know that is in His nature and he'd be disappointed if I didn't. I certainly don't have the answers to all situations but in my own experience, God was very clear that I should be away from abusers rather than try to survive fellowship meetings of any size with them present. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 2, 2015 22:12:11 GMT -5
why would any of the victims need rebaptising? Maybe you better ask the Head Worker of NSW that question Virgo !!! After all a lot of Mr Harvey's victims left "The Way" and according to the workers are lost !! So for them to be part of "The Way" again they would have to be re-baptised, but of course they would have to grow their hair & stop wearing jewellery to be baptised .... yet some one who has served time for molesting them is re-baptised !!! What's with this being re-baptized? I went 60 years hearing that there was no such thing. Is this some kind of Australian oddity? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Apr 2, 2015 22:14:22 GMT -5
Virgo are you for real !!! Why do you think they left ? Or do you think its right for a worker to abuse children/ girls ? regardless of why or how they left they left are you weird to think i think its right for a worker to abuse children/ girls? You are justifying someone who has abused children, don't you understand why the victims left? Honestly ! As I said before this was happening in the 70's and the Head Worker knew it was happening but nothing was done ! How do you think his victims felt Virgo? The whole idea of re-baptism is wrong in my opinion. The point I was making about what would happen if the victims wanted to be re-baptised, was this: Mr Harvey abused children, has not apologised to his victims & now has secretly been re-baptised by the workers. Now if one of his victims left the meeting because of the abuse they suffered for Mr Harvey, now want to be re-baptised (because that is the rule according to the workers) they would have to abide by all the man-made rules like not having short hair, not wearing jewellery etc etc before the workers would re-baptise them. Now on the other hand we have a ex-worker who has done time for abusing children, who has not apologised to his victims being re-baptised by the workers !!! Double standard or what ! |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 2, 2015 23:31:18 GMT -5
that will only have power if it is within the will of God What I meant by "prayer empowering us" was God empowering us through prayer. And before that I mentioned acting with the Spirit's guidance/support. So that would be within the will of God. Jesus said he didn't *condemn* the adultress (although let's be real, her crime did far less damage than an abuser would) I don't intend to condemn anyone to death or hell either. I hope the man has full restoration in God's eyes. There could be no problem with letting him listen in to convention via phone if he likes. Also, Jesus didn't say to not remove the mote. He said don't do it before you remove your own beam. Jesus made it very clear on the stance of abuse of little ones. We need to be careful that out of compassion for a worker we may have loved and respected because of his call that we dont stand in the way of justice. We are supposed to judge what happens within the kingdom of god. We are not supposed to judge the unsaved. Therefore we know gods will for the victims. We also know gods will for the perpetrators. |
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Post by withlove on Apr 2, 2015 23:44:10 GMT -5
What I meant by "prayer empowering us" was God empowering us through prayer. And before that I mentioned acting with the Spirit's guidance/support. So that would be within the will of God. Jesus said he didn't *condemn* the adultress (although let's be real, her crime did far less damage than an abuser would) I don't intend to condemn anyone to death or hell either. I hope the man has full restoration in God's eyes. There could be no problem with letting him listen in to convention via phone if he likes. Also, Jesus didn't say to not remove the mote. He said don't do it before you remove your own beam. Jesus made it very clear on the stance of abuse of little ones. We need to be careful that out of compassion for a worker we may have loved and respected because of his call that we dont stand in the way of justice. We are supposed to judge what happens within the kingdom of god. We are not supposed to judge the unsaved. Therefore we know gods will for the victims. We also know gods will for the perpetrators. Can you remind me please? |
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Post by bubbles on Apr 2, 2015 23:55:05 GMT -5
Jesus made it very clear on the stance of abuse of little ones. We need to be careful that out of compassion for a worker we may have loved and respected because of his call that we dont stand in the way of justice. We are supposed to judge what happens within the kingdom of god. We are not supposed to judge the unsaved. Therefore we know gods will for the victims. We also know gods will for the perpetrators. Can you remind me please? Gods will for victims is that Jesus Christ heals and can heal them. He can heal their emotions and physical body. He came to set us free from bondage. Victims of abuse need to be set free from the chains of bondage the abuser bound them with. Probably word threats. Mind information. Gods will for perpetrators is clear. 'Better a millstone is hung around their kneck.' What abusers have done is wickedness. Whoever they are. Worker or not. |
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