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Post by rational on Oct 22, 2014 23:41:14 GMT -5
So what about the victims Jimmy? What is the saying .... where there is smoke there is fire ! The covering up & sending from one state to the other has gone on for long enough ! Considering the way things have been handled in Australia in regard to CSA the last few years victims know what will happen if they come forward. Unless there is credible evidence no authority can take action. If the victims will not come forward, on what set of facts do you think the workers should act? If the victims do go to the authorities and report what will happen? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 23:54:51 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. Thank you jimmy for your post, and you have expressed my exact thoughts. Our law is presumption of innocence, until proven guilty. The only place this can happen is in a Court of Law, not on TMB. I am concerned that TMB is becoming a Kangaroo Court. not becoming but is |
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Post by Admin on Oct 23, 2014 0:16:13 GMT -5
TMB is aware of significant information from both sides of this situation. The alleged victim has requested anonymity and TMB respects that absolutely. She is a person who is highly regarded and TMB wishes her the very best in her life and with the choices that are hers alone.
Equally TMB acknowledges the denials of the accused, and that under law he is regarded as innocent in current circumstances. TMB respects that, and we are obliged to uphold the anonymity of this person, also absolutely.
Please note that any attempt to name publicly on TMB or hint at names of those involved will result in an immediate ban of the culprit, and the removal of this thread. Please respect the great difficulty in this situation, and those readers of faith - perhaps keep both of those involved in your prayers please, even if you don't know who they are. God knows.
Thank you,
admin
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Post by magpie on Oct 23, 2014 0:16:26 GMT -5
"WHERE THERE IS SMOKE THERE IS TOAST"? So so many would run the rise of placing your little children at danger because you want not to believe this is happening in an epidemic way amongst supposed celibate ministries all over the world. You would have not at one minute doubted taking Chris,Ernie,Allan,Monty,John,Lucy,Hilda,Georgie etc+ No you would have thought it an honour,because you must be high on the preacher acceptance list as a Royal member. Not one preacher called on us "ONCE" in the 15 years of our marrage,not even came to us to ask why we chose to leave? We wrote to State Bishop at the time never got one letter from him,addmitadly it was addressed to him C/O the Christian Assemblies of Australia,as they had just sold a valuable convention ground in that name? But when it was in the media I thought at last they are being honest to having prorerty and a KNOWN NAME.No next year they still preached we are HOMELESS,NAMELESS,PROPERTYLESS,preachig as just that. Liar? And early abuse of 2x preachers CSA on me? I prayed to God to use me in any useful way He wanted (dont pray that if you dont mean it) He listened and for many years (25) my life was involved in helping those who could not look after themselves. The greatest moments when you are trying to shower someone and they ask"why do you care about me"? It is not me. But?  ?/ |
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Post by Admin on Oct 23, 2014 1:15:18 GMT -5
And early abuse of 2x preachers CSA on me? I prayed to God to use me in any useful way He wanted (dont pray that if you dont mean it) He listened and for many years (25) my life was involved in helping those who could not look after themselves. The greatest moments when you are trying to shower someone and they ask"why do you care about me"? It is not me. But? ?/ , from what I understand of your story, I respect you greatly. From a church that is no longer your own, but you still care about, inadequate as this is, all I can say is "sorry" for all the abuse you suffered as a little boy. But you know God's blessing in your life, so you have it all! Best wishes from us here at TMB, admin |
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Post by magpie on Oct 23, 2014 2:09:58 GMT -5
Thanks Admin,When David Leitch arranged our most prolific crimnal psychologist to keep the further 12 victims of Ernie Barry away from being introduced to the court,to save his and 2x2s butt, we ask? What hold has Barry over Leitch or is the fear of the Royal Commission got Bishops of the media circus revealing the problems amongst them of the unbiblical celibate (as Other) ministries. The commission I know are balancing out scriptural or founder reasons why each group demand certain unbiblical unatural dangerous demands on personal entries claimed by each group,christian or secular.
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Post by fixit on Oct 23, 2014 3:02:19 GMT -5
Magpie, I also am sorry and ashamed that the church I was raised in didn't protect you and others like it should have.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 4:45:36 GMT -5
TMB is aware of significant information from both sides of this situation. The alleged victim has requested anonymity and TMB respects that absolutely. She is a person who is highly regarded and TMB wishes her the very best in her life and with the choices that are hers alone. Equally TMB acknowledges the denials of the accused, and that under law he is regarded as innocent in current circumstances. TMB respects that, and we are obliged to uphold the anonymity of this person, also absolutely. Please note that any attempt to name publicly on TMB or hint at names of those involved will result in an immediate ban of the culprit, and the removal of this thread. Please respect the great difficulty in this situation, and those readers of faith - perhaps keep both of those involved in your prayers please, even if you don't know who they are. God knows. Thank you, admin Appreciated and a wise and timely warning. TMB is an avenue through which we can all let off some steam, and express our views and opinions openly within the confined of the law, rules, regulations and decency and this must be respected even If some discussions do lead to a cul de Sac. These discussions do provoke awareness of some very important things and happenings within the fellowship.The scriptures warn that what happens in the shadows of darkness will come out in the light eventually. |
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Post by jimmy on Oct 23, 2014 6:58:28 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. Jimmy Forgive me but your post sounds like worker talk ken Sorry to disappoint ken, not worker talk. Just trying to remind people of the danger of a witch hunt. Don't get me wrong, I have very strong feelings as to what should be done to perpetrators of CSA (and my ideas may not be particularly Christian...) but it is such a serious issue that it is just WRONG to judge an individual on rumour and innuendo with no evidence. |
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Post by jimmy on Oct 23, 2014 7:12:40 GMT -5
Jimmy Forgive me but your post sounds like worker talk ken Very true, Ken. Fear of "destroying a man" and "false allegation... almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself" is worker talk - standard workers' statements regarding sexual abuse. Taken out of context, these statements are true - nobody wants to "destroy a man" by false allegations. But, the context is that in the fellowship the doctrine has been to cover up crimes, to teach against reporting allegations/abuse, and to vilify, shun and even excommunicate those who expose and report abuse. When the church leadership has taken responsibility and apologized for past mistakes and has given clear guidelines to all in the church to report abuse to authorities, and victims can do so without the fear of repercussions from within the church, then the above statements will not be viewed with suspicion. As I replied to ken, my sentiments are not worker talk. I freely acknowledge some serious inadequacies on how CSA has been dealt with within what is my belief system, and as such, any reports should go direct to the police. CSA is a crime and that is the appropriate authority to deal with it - particularly given the poor track record of many organisations to deal with this issue appropriately. My feelings of the effects of a false allegation of CSA extend to all circumstances in or out of the fellowship. CSA is such a horrific crime that the stigma sticks even if the allegations are false. Therefore it must be handled with the utmost of care. |
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Post by jimmy on Oct 23, 2014 7:24:10 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. So what about the victims Jimmy? What is the saying .... where there is smoke there is fire ! The covering up & sending from one state to the other has gone on for long enough ! Considering the way things have been handled in Australia in regard to CSA the last few years victims know what will happen if they come forward. Rosyln the whole basis of gossip is "where there is smoke there is fire". What about the victims you ask? Well to date none have been willing to come forward so the reality is their existence cannot be verified. If anyone knows victims of CSA please encourage them to go to the police. That way things are dealt with properly. Crucifying people on an internet forum is not an appropriate manner to deal with such a hideous crime. If after going to the authorities the victims are dealt with harshly by the fellowship then they have their answer about the legitimacy of the fellowship. Just handle this issue with the sensitivity it deserves as it has huge potential to cause the deepest hurt if false allegations are made. |
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 23, 2014 8:52:38 GMT -5
Jimmy Forgive me but your post sounds like worker talk ken Sorry to disappoint ken, not worker talk. Just trying to remind people of the danger of a witch hunt. Don't get me wrong, I have very strong feelings as to what should be done to perpetrators of CSA (and my ideas may not be particularly Christian...) but it is such a serious issue that it is just WRONG to judge an individual on rumour and innuendo with no evidence. Jimmy Forgive me for my misguided statement. Glad you clarified with a followup post. ken |
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Post by mdm on Oct 23, 2014 10:51:44 GMT -5
Very true, Ken. Fear of "destroying a man" and "false allegation... almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself" is worker talk - standard workers' statements regarding sexual abuse. Taken out of context, these statements are true - nobody wants to "destroy a man" by false allegations. But, the context is that in the fellowship the doctrine has been to cover up crimes, to teach against reporting allegations/abuse, and to vilify, shun and even excommunicate those who expose and report abuse. When the church leadership has taken responsibility and apologized for past mistakes and has given clear guidelines to all in the church to report abuse to authorities, and victims can do so without the fear of repercussions from within the church, then the above statements will not be viewed with suspicion. As I replied to ken, my sentiments are not worker talk. I freely acknowledge some serious inadequacies on how CSA has been dealt with within what is my belief system, and as such, any reports should go direct to the police. CSA is a crime and that is the appropriate authority to deal with it - particularly given the poor track record of many organisations to deal with this issue appropriately. My feelings of the effects of a false allegation of CSA extend to all circumstances in or out of the fellowship. CSA is such a horrific crime that the stigma sticks even if the allegations are false. Therefore it must be handled with the utmost of care. The fellowship has no good reason for not having child protection guidelines and for not encouraging victims to report abuse. Such guidelines would not only minimize the danger to children, but also minimize the danger of false accusation, gossip and rumors. The reasons we were given for not having church guidelines in the Eastern US are that: 1) Written guidelines would have to be followed in all situations with no exceptions and the church could be held liable in case of failure to do so; 2) The effective lack of hierarchy ‐ there is no one single person who could take the authority or responsibility to draft the guidelines; 3) Fear of "going beyond the scripture in establishing written guidelines." One result of ministry's unwillingness to draft and implement child protection guidelines are rumors being spread on TMB. However, the blame is on the ministry and it's lack of willingness to deal with child protection issues in a moral and legal way. You mention other "organizations" with poor track record. I don't mean to imply that it was for the purpose of making light of the fellowship's failures. But, for the sake of others who are reading, I want to say that the fellowship doesn't consider itself an "organization." It is "the one and only true way of God." As such, it should be leading the way in righteousness, not lagging behind or taking comfort in failures of other groups that don't deny they are organizations. Edited to add: An illustration of just how unsafe and unwelcome any open discussion of CSA/immorality issues are in the fellowship is that concerned friends and workers can only communicate their concerns confidentially. They know that "it is not safe" to do it openly, and they fear repercussions of talking openly. This culture of secrecy and lack of liberty needs to change in order for victims to feel safe to report abuse. Another illustration: when we sent a plea to local elders regarding these issues, the only open replies we received expressed either complete unconditional support for the ministry (as if our plea was about rebellion against the ministry) or request to not be included in further correspondence. When we sent a plea to local friends, there were no open replies at all. Reporting abuse without permission from the ministry and/or discussion of CSA issues and how they should be handled is seen as going against the ministry, "getting out of one's place" and "spiritual sin" of questioning ministry's authority. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 14:22:42 GMT -5
Encouraging that some sense has come back into this thread. My thoughts are that CSA allegations cannot be dealt with "In House", within any Church. It is a big step for a victim to go to the Police which means they may end up in open Court. There should be an independent CSA panel where victims can go, outside the public arena. This seems to be working with young offenders, and no reason why it would not work with CSA.Lets hope that the Royal Commission comes up with some scheme like that. Victims should be questioned. Bear in mind they are young and should not be intimidated. The Police are not the answer.
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Post by fixit on Oct 23, 2014 15:15:17 GMT -5
Encouraging that some sense has come back into this thread. My thoughts are that CSA allegations cannot be dealt with "In House", within any Church. It is a big step for a victim to go to the Police which means they may end up in open Court. There should be an independent CSA panel where victims can go, outside the public arena. This seems to be working with young offenders, and no reason why it would not work with CSA.Lets hope that the Royal Commission comes up with some scheme like that. Victims should be questioned. Bear in mind they are young and should not be intimidated. The Police are not the answer. Society's understanding and handling of CSA is improving as we speak. In some police jurisdictions CSA is handled by specially trained people who do their best to avoid intimidation of victims. It's disgusting how defence has been allowed to treat victims in court and as a result further victims are afraid to come forward. When you say "victims should be questioned" I hope you mean they should only be questioned by trained and competent professionals. Advice that some overseers have given to their staff about questioning victims is wrong. |
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Post by snow on Oct 23, 2014 16:14:13 GMT -5
Encouraging that some sense has come back into this thread. My thoughts are that CSA allegations cannot be dealt with "In House", within any Church. It is a big step for a victim to go to the Police which means they may end up in open Court. There should be an independent CSA panel where victims can go, outside the public arena. This seems to be working with young offenders, and no reason why it would not work with CSA.Lets hope that the Royal Commission comes up with some scheme like that. Victims should be questioned. Bear in mind they are young and should not be intimidated. The Police are not the answer. Trained personnel within the Police are the answer. It doesn't need to be intimidating. It has to be reported to the authorities, not just the workers. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 23, 2014 16:19:27 GMT -5
Encouraging that some sense has come back into this thread. My thoughts are that CSA allegations cannot be dealt with "In House", within any Church. It is a big step for a victim to go to the Police which means they may end up in open Court. There should be an independent CSA panel where victims can go, outside the public arena. This seems to be working with young offenders, and no reason why it would not work with CSA.Lets hope that the Royal Commission comes up with some scheme like that. Victims should be questioned. Bear in mind they are young and should not be intimidated. The Police are not the answer. Do you think that the culture of cover ups and lack of support for victims in the fellowship has made it even harder for victims to go to the Police and go through the legal process? Do you think that the culture needs to be changed and how? Until there are independent CSA panels you refer to and until abuse can perhaps be dealt with in a better way, what can the church do to deal with evil in its midst and ensure that known offenders are not being sent to people's homes as trusted minsters? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 17:27:55 GMT -5
maja, I hear you and agree with you. The Churches, society in general, we all have to lift our game. But what Jimmy and myself have been pointing out, is that innocent people can also have their lives destroyed. I am not going to go into detail, but some years ago I was charged by Police with assault. I was charged on summons without interview, and dragged off to Court. 4 days later and $30,000 out of pocket I was found not guilty. My Barrister pointed out to me that even though the evidence was contrived, it was strong,and I could wind up 12 months in gaol. The Judge almost believed 1 of about 6 witnesses. But his verdict was that the charges were not proven beyond reasonable doubt, and I was acquitted. I can tell you that as he delivered his verdict, I was biting my finger nails to the elbow. Not a pleasant experience, and one I would rather forget. Some people in that community think I was guilty, so I never go back there. I was innocent, as found by Court,but some people will never agree. It is hurtful.
So as a society we have to come up with a system that convicts guilty, protects innocent. It has been pointed out that those who commit CSA have a mental problem. We need to care for peoples minds, and mental illness. Get a virus in your computer, renders it useless. Get a virus in your brain, not only do you become useless, you also become dangerous. In the past Churches have provided good brain food,but sadly people are leaving the Churches. It has created a vacuum, and people are getting the wrong brain food. Convention was a good source, sure there was some tripe, but also plenty of icecream to send you away inspired. Another source is needed for good brain food. We need more psychologists.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 23, 2014 19:15:13 GMT -5
So what about the victims Jimmy? What is the saying .... where there is smoke there is fire ! The covering up & sending from one state to the other has gone on for long enough ! Considering the way things have been handled in Australia in regard to CSA the last few years victims know what will happen if they come forward. Rosyln the whole basis of gossip is "where there is smoke there is fire". What about the victims you ask? Well to date none have been willing to come forward so the reality is their existence cannot be verified. If anyone knows victims of CSA please encourage them to go to the police. That way things are dealt with properly. Crucifying people on an internet forum is not an appropriate manner to deal with such a hideous crime. If after going to the authorities the victims are dealt with harshly by the fellowship then they have their answer about the legitimacy of the fellowship. Just handle this issue with the sensitivity it deserves as it has huge potential to cause the deepest hurt if false allegations are made. Jimmy do you ever wonder why the victim/ victims don't come forward? We all know what happens when a person dares to question the workers or bring something up they want hidden. I know firsthand what the Head Worker of QLD's opinion is on this issue, therefore I have concerns for children going to conventions. If the CSA issue was handled as it should have been 20 plus years ago people would have reported abusers to the police and workers would not get sent from one state to the other, they would have had to answer to the law and that would have been a warning to all that it would not be tolerated. |
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2014 19:15:48 GMT -5
Encouraging that some sense has come back into this thread. My thoughts are that CSA allegations cannot be dealt with "In House", within any Church. It is a big step for a victim to go to the Police which means they may end up in open Court. There should be an independent CSA panel where victims can go, outside the public arena. This seems to be working with young offenders, and no reason why it would not work with CSA.Lets hope that the Royal Commission comes up with some scheme like that. Victims should be questioned. Bear in mind they are young and should not be intimidated. The Police are not the answer. Trained personnel within the Police are the answer. It doesn't need to be intimidating. It has to be reported to the authorities, not just the workers. It has to be reported to the authorities, not just the workers. |
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2014 19:28:44 GMT -5
It has been pointed out that those who commit CSA have a mental problem. We need to care for peoples minds, and mental illness. Get a virus in your computer, renders it useless. Get a virus in your brain, not only do you become useless, you also become dangerous. One of the issues is that for most CSA is CSA without any gradation as to the severity of the act. While every act of CSA is illegal and should never be tolerated they cannot all be treated the same. The word pedophile is bandied around and applied to many offenders but few actually are diagnosed as such and the treatment of pedophiles is different from the treatment of a 26 year old who is caught having sex with a 17 year old. All CSA is not the result of mental illness. A summary from Wiki:
Under the law, child sexual abuse is an umbrella term describing criminal and civil offenses in which an adult engages in sexual activity with a minor or exploits a minor for the purpose of sexual gratification. The American Psychiatric Association states that "children cannot consent to sexual activity with adults", and condemns any such action by an adult: "An adult who engages in sexual activity with a child is performing a criminal and immoral act which never can be considered normal or socially acceptable behavior."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 19:28:44 GMT -5
Roselyn I agree, but an innocent person being harassed will want to go to another place. In my case, as long as I live I will never go back to the place where I was falsely accused.
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Post by snow on Oct 23, 2014 19:30:10 GMT -5
Trained personnel within the Police are the answer. It doesn't need to be intimidating. It has to be reported to the authorities, not just the workers. It has to be reported to the authorities, not just the workers. Well, I added the workers so that they could be proactive and do something like they do with cops when they are being investigated. Not allowed to work, until the investigation has cleared them. CSA is quite serious so it made sense to me that if the workers knew and the alleged abuser was still out in the community then they could do their part and remove them from active worker duties. If the person isn't guilty they should understand the peace of mind that would give parents if they stepped down for awhile until they were cleared of wrong doing. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 19:32:54 GMT -5
rational, still think they are sick. People with healthy minds don't do that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 19:35:13 GMT -5
Snow, good point. Good reason to shift them.
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2014 19:42:31 GMT -5
rational, still think they are sick. People with healthy minds don't do that. Some of the laws are based on the rules of specific societies and what is OK in one location may not be in another. Unhealthy and against society are two different things. On the far side of CSA, adults having sex with infants is generally considered unhealthy by any society. However, is a 23 year old female having a relationship with a 17 year old male unhealthy? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 19:58:02 GMT -5
concernedguest where have you gone. First and only post. Not concerned anymore ?. |
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Post by snow on Oct 23, 2014 20:49:19 GMT -5
Snow, good point. Good reason to shift them. Shift them? Not sure what you mean by this. Would people know about the charges? Hopefully? |
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