James
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Post by James on Oct 16, 2014 21:41:46 GMT -5
Notice for Queensland, Australia professing families
A worker who has been "under a cloud" regarding CSA allegations in Queensland in the past, but has not been charged, is again visiting that state and friends with families are advised to be extremely cautious. As usual, any victims with allegations, can contact Wings. wingsfortruth.info/
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 17, 2014 0:01:59 GMT -5
Thank you for the warning, we all need to be aware of these things.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 7:13:35 GMT -5
A professing person just PM'd me asking me to keep this warning towards the top of the list..... Well , what can one say? It is a bit unfortunate, shameful and disappointing that there is the need to do this. If this is correct, the focus would be on that worker for the wrong reason; anything edifying from him/her would be missed because it would probably pass over the heads of the listeners for the simple reason that he/ she starts out with very low esteem in their eyes, so their minds would be concentrated on being judgmental with anxiety rather than feeding on any spiritual messages delivered. |
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Post by flower on Oct 20, 2014 7:44:44 GMT -5
I'm very concerned about this as we live in Qld. In fact the worker in our field is visiting ATM although I couldn't possibly imagine it could be him. Please can we have some more information?
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 8:38:51 GMT -5
Notice for Queensland, Australia professing families
A worker who has been "under a cloud" regarding CSA allegations in Queensland in the past, but has not been charged, is again visiting that state and friends with families are advised to be extremely cautious. As usual, any victims with allegations, can contact Wings. wingsfortruth.info/ Has the individual been reported to the authorities and the determination that the allegations were groundless? Or have the allegations just been made internally? Not sure of the legal reporting requirements in Queensland but the ethical consideration should be clear. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 20, 2014 12:22:17 GMT -5
Notice for Queensland, Australia professing families
A worker who has been "under a cloud" regarding CSA allegations in Queensland in the past, but has not been charged, is again visiting that state and friends with families are advised to be extremely cautious. As usual, any victims with allegations, can contact Wings. wingsfortruth.info/ Has the individual been reported to the authorities and the determination that the allegations were groundless? Or have the allegations just been made internally? Not sure of the legal reporting requirements in Queensland but the ethical consideration should be clear. Yes, he has been reported. As far back as 2008. His name has been reported to more than one group of authorities. The senior workers are well aware of allegations against him. He has been shuffled around a few times as well. This may be his last shuffling, as the overseers are going to need to take action at some point. Without a victim willing to make a statement, the authorities can't do much, other than keep a note of allegations against him. So.....in the meantime, those who have heard of the allegations do as friends around the world do. They notify each other, and lose trust and respect for the senior workers who are involved. Some of those senior workers have made comments that they are dealing with it, but after years of not doing so, and evidently hoping it will deal with itself, they are no longer believed. Time and again, I have observed how senior workers try to protect a fellow worker from scandle, and by doing so have driven families out if the church. In one such situation, I guessed it to be over 200 people who left, which of course does not include the future generations who would have been in the church. It is much like the situation with Ernie Barry. He was convicted based on one individual willing to make a statement, had admitted to 6, and actually has victims numbering in the 20's based on information that has been reported since his conviction. |
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Post by faune on Oct 20, 2014 12:53:54 GMT -5
Has the individual been reported to the authorities and the determination that the allegations were groundless? Or have the allegations just been made internally? Not sure of the legal reporting requirements in Queensland but the ethical consideration should be clear. Yes, he has been reported. As far back as 2008. His name has been reported to more than one group of authorities. The senior workers are well aware of allegations against him. He has been shuffled around a few times as well. This may be his last shuffling, as the overseers are going to need to take action at some point. Without a victim willing to make a statement, the authorities can't do much, other than keep a note of allegations against him. So.....in the meantime, those who have heard of the allegations do as friends around the world do. They notify each other, and lose trust and respect for the senior workers who are involved. Some of those senior workers have made comments that they are dealing with it, but after years of not doing so, and evidently hoping it will deal with itself, they are no longer believed. Time and again, I have observed how senior workers try to protect a fellow worker from scandle, and by doing so have driven families out if the church. In one such situation, I guessed it to be over 200 people who left, which of course does not include the future generations who would have been in the church. It is much like the situation with Ernie Barry. He was convicted based on one individual willing to make a statement, had admitted to 6, and actually has victims numbering in the 20's based on information that has been reported since his conviction. ~ And the mountain grows under the carpet due to others not willing to expose a perverted worker with multiple offenses to his credit! Honestly, whatever wisdom this man may share in meeting means nothing, if his lifestyle is connected with CSA. Also, any worldly church today would report such a person to the authorities without question. However, it seems these "one and only true churches" have a different set of values when it comes to exposing evil and seeing to it that it's eradicated from their midst?  |
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Post by mdm on Oct 20, 2014 13:35:15 GMT -5
A year ago, an overseer spoke at our convention and said that "some want to give us lists and instructions, but that is all worthless." There was no doubt in our mind that that was his reply to our letter to overseers. Here is a part of a "worthless" list that deals with issues in this thread: 1) Can we have assurance that NO known child molester, regardless of how long ago or how far away he committed CSA, will be sent to our or anybody else’s home under the cloak of ministry? Can we have assurance that NO known child molester is allowed to enter or remain in the work? 2) Can we have assurance that all senior workers will work to effect a change in the fellowship culture for the purpose of creating a safer environment for children? Considering the history of inappropriate handling of CSA allegations in the fellowship and the risk that workers staying in homes with children along with convention environment present, all workers and friends need to be informed that: CSA is a crime that has happened and can still happen in the fellowship, that protective measures need to be put in place, and that allegations and indications of CSA need to be taken seriously and reported to authorities. One part of this effort can be to give all members of the fellowship the link to CSA Code of Conduct created by concerned friends and found at www.csainfo.info/ or sites.google.com/site/csacodeofconduct/. 3) Can we have assurance that in cases of alleged CSA, parents of victims, adult victims, and other concerned individuals will be encouraged to report allegations to authorities, and that workers will not try to judge whether an allegation is true or false, but will allow trained and authorized professionals to investigate? Sadly, a ministry that tolerates sexual immorality in its midst cannot have integrity to deal with CSA unless forced to by external pressures. They simply DO NOT distinguish between adult consensual immorality, adult abuse and CSA. And, consensual immorality or abuse, it's all easily explained away as "seduction," a minor mistake of the flesh or as a false accusation. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 20, 2014 13:37:13 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own.
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 13:43:06 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own. Think of the children in the whole world church, not just your own. |
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 13:45:29 GMT -5
Scott, Thanks for the response. I wonder what the response would be if, in a turning of the tables, the members rejected that worker. Has the individual been reported to the authorities and the determination that the allegations were groundless? Or have the allegations just been made internally? Not sure of the legal reporting requirements in Queensland but the ethical consideration should be clear. Yes, he has been reported. As far back as 2008. His name has been reported to more than one group of authorities. The senior workers are well aware of allegations against him. He has been shuffled around a few times as well. This may be his last shuffling, as the overseers are going to need to take action at some point. Without a victim willing to make a statement, the authorities can't do much, other than keep a note of allegations against him. So.....in the meantime, those who have heard of the allegations do as friends around the world do. They notify each other, and lose trust and respect for the senior workers who are involved. Some of those senior workers have made comments that they are dealing with it, but after years of not doing so, and evidently hoping it will deal with itself, they are no longer believed. Time and again, I have observed how senior workers try to protect a fellow worker from scandle, and by doing so have driven families out if the church. In one such situation, I guessed it to be over 200 people who left, which of course does not include the future generations who would have been in the church. It is much like the situation with Ernie Barry. He was convicted based on one individual willing to make a statement, had admitted to 6, and actually has victims numbering in the 20's based on information that has been reported since his conviction. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 20, 2014 13:50:26 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own. Think of the children in the whole world church, not just your own. In the context of what is being discussed, the church is where people involved can have the most impact on their kids, and those kids that they know. Unfortunately, for many members of the church, such issues aren't discussed openly. This is partly because it is hard to deal with issues that are in a church that is 'perfect'. The statement that I have personally heard....which many have heard and said...... "we are in The Perfect Way, filled with Imperfect People",\. I think that is the biggest stumbling block. How can one be in a 'perfect way', if that 'way', doesn't acknowledge openly the acts of the 'imperfect people' that affect it as a whole? On the other hand, many of these same people will be the ones demanding that their schools and other public institutions insure that their kids have a safe environment to be in. If it is outside the church, then it better be dealt with, while within the church one must keep to the idea that 'The Way is Perfect'. |
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rs
Junior Member
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Post by rs on Oct 20, 2014 13:50:45 GMT -5
I hope someone has been able to give Flower the information required
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 20, 2014 14:05:09 GMT -5
Scott, Thanks for the response. I wonder what the response would be if, in a turning of the tables, the members rejected that worker. Yes, he has been reported. As far back as 2008. His name has been reported to more than one group of authorities. The senior workers are well aware of allegations against him. He has been shuffled around a few times as well. This may be his last shuffling, as the overseers are going to need to take action at some point. Without a victim willing to make a statement, the authorities can't do much, other than keep a note of allegations against him. So.....in the meantime, those who have heard of the allegations do as friends around the world do. They notify each other, and lose trust and respect for the senior workers who are involved. Some of those senior workers have made comments that they are dealing with it, but after years of not doing so, and evidently hoping it will deal with itself, they are no longer believed. Time and again, I have observed how senior workers try to protect a fellow worker from scandle, and by doing so have driven families out if the church. In one such situation, I guessed it to be over 200 people who left, which of course does not include the future generations who would have been in the church. It is much like the situation with Ernie Barry. He was convicted based on one individual willing to make a statement, had admitted to 6, and actually has victims numbering in the 20's based on information that has been reported since his conviction.
That has already been happening around the world. In some cases, convention ground owners have informed their overseers that certain individuals are NOT allowed to attend convention on their property. In other cases, church members have flatly rejected having certain workers stay in their homes. Now, some people are starting to reject having workers who are not personal friends or relatives staying with them, or simply hanging out the 'No Room At The Inn' signs. Not like it used to be, where workers could just call up and say they were on the way over, and expect it to happen. In lots of places, the local workers now ask if a visiting worker can come stay, and the answer they are getting is..... NO!! In other instances I am aware of, friends will skip meetings (at convention and special meetings) where such workers are going to be speaking. In some cases, if they do attend, they simply leave when that individual gets up to speak. (slipping away during hymn singing normally). Not much else they can do really. They read here and elsewhere what happens to those who ask/demand/request/plea for action to take place in dealing with these issues, and know that the only way to handle such issues is by totally ignoring the senior workers, and rather are taking the issues privately to those within the church that they know and trust. Those workers who are not senior, really can do little to affect change, so they know it is up to them to inform others in their area, and to do what they can to bring about change in attitudes from within. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 20, 2014 14:06:51 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own. Think of the children in the whole world church, not just your own. Absolutely. But, considering that workers stay only with professing people, it is children in professing homes who are exposed to dangers in this context. Also, being concerned, knowledgeable and even involved in child protection services outside of the church, doesn't mean that a professing person will openly ask for child protection guidelines and procedures in the church. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 20, 2014 14:24:30 GMT -5
Scott, Thanks for the response. I wonder what the response would be if, in a turning of the tables, the members rejected that worker.
That has already been happening around the world. In some cases, convention ground owners have informed their overseers that certain individuals are NOT allowed to attend convention on their property. In other cases, church members have flatly rejected having certain workers stay in their homes. Now, some people are starting to reject having workers who are not personal friends or relatives staying with them, or simply hanging out the 'No Room At The Inn' signs. Not like it used to be, where workers could just call up and say they were on the way over, and expect it to happen. In lots of places, the local workers now ask if a visiting worker can come stay, and the answer they are getting is..... NO!! In other instances I am aware of, friends will skip meetings (at convention and special meetings) where such workers are going to be speaking. In some cases, if they do attend, they simply leave when that individual gets up to speak. (slipping away during hymn singing normally). Not much else they can do really. They read here and elsewhere what happens to those who ask/demand/request/plea for action to take place in dealing with these issues, and know that the only way to handle such issues is by totally ignoring the senior workers, and rather are taking the issues privately to those within the church that they know and trust. Those workers who are not senior, really can do little to affect change, so they know it is up to them to inform others in their area, and to do what they can to bring about change in attitudes from within. I am not aware of any professing people who don't open their homes to workers. One person has told me that we should be careful which worker we open our home to, but I have no idea how one could know who is trustworthy and who isn't?? We sure were not warned about IH when he was in our field and our overseer, even though later we found out that some knew about allegations against him. I can see that some would be open with you since you are not in the fellowship, but these topics are not openly discussed among professing people. My earlier plea was to these people who take steps to protect their own family, but are not asking for church-wide steps to protect all the children. |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 20, 2014 15:03:24 GMT -5
I wonder what the response would be if, in a turning of the tables, the members rejected that worker.
That has already been happening around the world. In some cases, convention ground owners have informed their overseers that certain individuals are NOT allowed to attend convention on their property. In other cases, church members have flatly rejected having certain workers stay in their homes. Now, some people are starting to reject having workers who are not personal friends or relatives staying with them, or simply hanging out the 'No Room At The Inn' signs. Not like it used to be, where workers could just call up and say they were on the way over, and expect it to happen. In lots of places, the local workers now ask if a visiting worker can come stay, and the answer they are getting is..... NO!! In other instances I am aware of, friends will skip meetings (at convention and special meetings) where such workers are going to be speaking. In some cases, if they do attend, they simply leave when that individual gets up to speak. (slipping away during hymn singing normally). Not much else they can do really. They read here and elsewhere what happens to those who ask/demand/request/plea for action to take place in dealing with these issues, and know that the only way to handle such issues is by totally ignoring the senior workers, and rather are taking the issues privately to those within the church that they know and trust. Those workers who are not senior, really can do little to affect change, so they know it is up to them to inform others in their area, and to do what they can to bring about change in attitudes from within. I am not aware of any professing people who don't open their homes to workers. One person has told me that we should be careful which worker we open our home to, but I have no idea how one could know who is trustworthy and who isn't?? We sure were not warned about IH when he was in our field and our overseer, even though later we found out that some knew about allegations against him. I can see that some would be open with you since you are not in the fellowship, but these topics are not openly discussed among professing people. My earlier plea was to these people who take steps to protect their own family, but are not asking for church-wide steps to protect all the children. You are correct. It isn't openly discussed, and the only reason I can see is because of the issues I mentioned. Namely, the response from the senior workers to such discussions. And you are also correct that people are more open to discuss issues with me. This includes junior workers/elders/convention ground owners/professing folks who contact me and ask for more information concerning issues that they have read about here on the TMB. These are those people who read here but don't post here. Lots of concern in the church about how senior workers are handling (or not handling) issues that come up. SOME senior workers/overseers are doing what they can, but their efforts, for the most part, only affect their local field/area. I find it interesting that I am considered more trustworthy to get information and straight answers to questions from than senior workers. In fact, I have gotten information from church members who asked that I pass the information on to overseers, but without divulging where the information came from. Pretty sad state of affairs within the 'Perfect Way', when overseers aren't trusted/respected enough to sit down and discuss the issues with church members because of fear of consequences for doing so.  I should also add that one reason that people tend to trust me is that I don't have any malice toward the fellowship. I think that for most professing folks, they are happy where they are, and simply want things to be dealt with that come up. It hurts them to read how senior workers care more for themselves and their image, rather than for the church body and the church image. Where the overseers have been open and honest in dealing with issues, the local church has been able to deal with issues as a group, and emerged stronger than ever. Where cover-ups, lies and deceit has been used, the loss of trust and respect for senior workers erodes the local church, and it is weaker than it was before. |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 15:19:25 GMT -5
A professing person just PM'd me asking me to keep this warning towards the top of the list..... Well , what can one say? It is a bit unfortunate, shameful and disappointing that there is the need to do this. If this is correct, the focus would be on that worker for the wrong reason; anything edifying from him/her would be missed because it would probably pass over the heads of the listeners for the simple reason that he/ she starts out with very low esteem in their eyes, so their minds would be concentrated on being judgmental with anxiety rather than feeding on any spiritual messages delivered. We'd be a sick fellowship indeed if we needed sexual abusers of children to feed us. It reminds me of another sexual abuser who was considered a very useful overseer in the Kingdom: |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 15:27:03 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own. Think of the children in the whole world church, not just your own. How can "the whole world" be warned about protecting their children from workers staying in their homes? Most of "the whole world" don't know what workers are. |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 16:03:29 GMT -5
I find it interesting that I am considered more trustworthy to get information and straight answers to questions from than senior workers. In fact, I have gotten information from church members who asked that I pass the information on to overseers, but without divulging where the information came from. Pretty sad state of affairs within the 'Perfect Way', when overseers aren't trusted/respected enough to sit down and discuss the issues with church members because of fear of consequences for doing so. What you describe Scott, is the inevitable result of a hierarchical organizational structure. Its not what Jesus envisaged for his church... |
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Post by rational on Oct 20, 2014 16:54:45 GMT -5
In the context of what is being discussed, the church is where people involved can have the most impact on their kids, and those kids that they know. Unfortunately, for many members of the church, such issues aren't discussed openly. This is partly because it is hard to deal with issues that are in a church that is 'perfect'. The statement that I have personally heard....which many have heard and said...... "we are in The Perfect Way, filled with Imperfect People",\. I think that is the biggest stumbling block. How can one be in a 'perfect way', if that 'way', doesn't acknowledge openly the acts of the 'imperfect people' that affect it as a whole? The idea of an imperfect church probably does have some effect but on a wider scale the prevailing attitudes regarding sex is probably a larger factor. It leads to many problems for children who are raised without the essential facts. Couple that with religions that look at their leaders as a person led by god and you have the making of problems. I think this applies to many denominations. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2014 17:23:09 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own. , I feel your pain and it saddens me. We were brought up to hold these folks in very high esteem, so if you cannot trust them, who can you trust? It reminds me of something I once heard Mohamid Ali, the boxer say, I don't recall what the conversation was about, but the interviewer had asked him a question relating to trust and his response was: if you have a barrel full of snakes and only one snake in that barrel is dangerous and very poisonous, would you expect me to push my hand in that barrel? |
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Post by flower on Oct 20, 2014 17:54:04 GMT -5
If you are professing and reading here, please do not be satisfied just to protect your own children. Think of others who are not on the grapevine (internet or personal) and informed of dangers. I once trustingly opened my home to workers, while others who knew about dangers took measures to protect their own children. I personally feel deceived and cheated and not valued because nobody warned me of dangers. I am asking you to not participate in this deception by protecting only your own children. Think of the children in the whole church, not just your own. I am professing and obviously reading here and I will NOT take this lightly or stand back on this issue. I have read of this issue in other states and countries but when it's in your own backyard and your own children are at risk it certainly takes on a new level of meaning. I'm not saying I agree with the 'cover ups' in the past (quite the opposite ) but other than pray, one feels there isn't a lot they can meaningfully do in those cases when you don't know those involved. However, I am prepared to do what is necessary to help in this situation seeing as I presume fly would know the people involved. As yet I haven't been given any further details as to who this person is. I haven't slept all night worrying, praying and racking my brain trying to figure it out. If it is more than mere allegations (gossip) that this person has acted in this way, then this person needs to be exposed in the fellowship. I cannot agree with the comment that it would hinder us listening to this person as we would have preconceived thoughts about them and not take in the 'message'. God's servants are to live 'the truth' before us and others. If they aren't (and don't repent - which in my opinion would include being willing for the consequences of the law of the land) then they are no more than a hypocrite and should not have a place in the ministry. Perhaps there are other issues that I'm not aware of but from the way I see it, if those 'in the know' on this board are not willing to give the details of this person to people in Queensland, then how are they any different from those in the fellowship that cover it up? It is not enough to post on here 'be careful' when such a very small percentage if professing people in this state would ever see the post or hear of it. (No offence to any poster intended) Further, if I start going around saying 'be careful, a Qld worker has CSA allegations' I'm possibly going to be labeled a trouble maker and not taken much notice of unless there are some facts to back it up. Perhaps I being naive in my thoughts... Given I've had no experience in such matters before. There are 3 workers who I would happily meet with to discuss this issue and I'm prepared to do so. Please, if there is a reason this worker cannot be exposed here on this site could someone please pm me or ring or email me. Please pm me for details Thank you |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 17:57:29 GMT -5
A professing person just PM'd me asking me to keep this warning towards the top of the list..... Wonder why they don't keep it towards the top of the list themselves? Because the friends who participate on TMB get a hard time from our resident TMB worker? Get accused of being a "Walter Mitty"? And leading a "double life"? |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 19:12:22 GMT -5
You are correct hypocrisy is not good. I appreciate friends and who have the same persona in real life as they do on TMB. (TMB resident elder also) :-) Did you mean... I appreciate friends and workers who have the same persona in real life as they do on TMB. (TMB resident elder also) :-) |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 19:57:19 GMT -5
You are correct, let's meet & prove that when I'm at Masterton or before /after. What is there to discuss that we can't talk about here? |
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Post by fixit on Oct 20, 2014 20:22:14 GMT -5
Nothing, but for it to be helpful or meaningful it needs to be where your online TMB and real life personae merge. You keep making it about the person. I guess that's your way of dismissing any criticism - simply find a way to discredit the messenger so that you can ignore the message. |
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Post by snow on Oct 20, 2014 20:26:39 GMT -5
Why don't the workers in the area let the people know who it is they should be careful of? Seems to make the most sense since he has been reported to the authorities. Then people like flower wouldn't have to spend the night awake and worrying. They would know who to watch out for. What are the senior workers thinking they are accomplishing by not being up front about issues with one of their own? Somebody tell flower.
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