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Post by snow on Oct 22, 2014 10:53:01 GMT -5
As long as parents assume that their children are safe at Convention unless warned otherwise, their kids will be at risk. As long as parents assume their children are safe at Convention as long as they are kept away from known or rumored abusers, their kids will remain at risk. Exactly. Go to convention with the same level of awareness as you would anywhere else. Don't change what you would ordinarily do in the 'world' just because you think you're safe at convention. Like anywhere, you might be safe, or you might not be safe. Have guidelines in place that are the same no matter where you are, who you are with etc. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 22, 2014 11:10:32 GMT -5
I wonder what the response would be if, in a turning of the tables, the members rejected that worker.
That has already been happening around the world. In some cases, convention ground owners have informed their overseers that certain individuals are NOT allowed to attend convention on their property. In other cases, church members have flatly rejected having certain workers stay in their homes. Now, some people are starting to reject having workers who are not personal friends or relatives staying with them, or simply hanging out the 'No Room At The Inn' signs. Not like it used to be, where workers could just call up and say they were on the way over, and expect it to happen. In lots of places, the local workers now ask if a visiting worker can come stay, and the answer they are getting is..... NO!! In other instances I am aware of, friends will skip meetings (at convention and special meetings) where such workers are going to be speaking. In some cases, if they do attend, they simply leave when that individual gets up to speak. (slipping away during hymn singing normally). Not much else they can do really. They read here and elsewhere what happens to those who ask/demand/request/plea for action to take place in dealing with these issues, and know that the only way to handle such issues is by totally ignoring the senior workers, and rather are taking the issues privately to those within the church that they know and trust. Those workers who are not senior, really can do little to affect change, so they know it is up to them to inform others in their area, and to do what they can to bring about change in attitudes from within. I am not aware of any professing people who don't open their homes to workers. One person has told me that we should be careful which worker we open our home to, but I have no idea how one could know who is trustworthy and who isn't?? We sure were not warned about IH when he was in our field and our overseer, even though later we found out that some knew about allegations against him. I can see that some would be open with you since you are not in the fellowship, but these topics are not openly discussed among professing people. My earlier plea was to these people who take steps to protect their own family, but are not asking for church-wide steps to protect all the children. Most of the friends are still under the cloud of the spell of the workers' control and the workers are working overtime to keep it so....thus they will not be offering anything negative about anyone or anything of their business to anyone of the fellowship, because they are trying to keep their positions as truly heads of state of the fellowship...that the friends have little need to be using their poor little brains about the fellowship's business! This makes me see red, though admitted there was a day I went along for a time.......put people in a hypnotic state of mind and giving them suggestions of thought and care and duty, they then can feel free to move on down the road and do that to another bunch of friends.....mind control is somewhat a cult tactic for it keeps people all of the same mind and according to the workers, the same spirit! But it's really sad when something so sad as CSA happens to the very small and innocent children in the faith happen and all due to the blind faith in the workers. And when we listen to people's testimony they don't testify of the same blind faith in Jesus, usually! |
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Post by mdm on Oct 22, 2014 11:13:39 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. Jimmy Forgive me but your post sounds like worker talk ken Very true, Ken. Fear of "destroying a man" and "false allegation... almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself" is worker talk - standard workers' statements regarding sexual abuse. Taken out of context, these statements are true - nobody wants to "destroy a man" by false allegations. But, the context is that in the fellowship the doctrine has been to cover up crimes, to teach against reporting allegations/abuse, and to vilify, shun and even excommunicate those who expose and report abuse. When the church leadership has taken responsibility and apologized for past mistakes and has given clear guidelines to all in the church to report abuse to authorities, and victims can do so without the fear of repercussions from within the church, then the above statements will not be viewed with suspicion. |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 22, 2014 11:16:21 GMT -5
Why don't the workers in the area let the people know who it is they should be careful of? Seems to make the most sense since he has been reported to the authorities. Then people like flower wouldn't have to spend the night awake and worrying. They would know who to watch out for. What are the senior workers thinking they are accomplishing by not being up front about issues with one of their own? Somebody tell flower. Seema l;ike to me that it would be a great time of year to let the alleged perpetrator to have a visit to home! That way, his feelings will not be hurt, his place will not be usurped and for the friends they won't have to worry that he's lurking out in the dark trying to molest one of their little children. The BEST action of all would be to send the alleg perp home and tell him that his work has become ineffectual due to the allegations against him! It is not unusual in the workplace that some employee that has been involved in some child's play and other employees have felt their place in the business was in danger due to the perp's unprecedented child's play...that the boss will ask the perp to leave even though nothing has been proven on the perp other then that he has caused problems amongst his fellow employees, and it might just be his work was productive and all of that, but it's just the interruption of the atmosphere of continuity of purpose in the work place! |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Oct 22, 2014 11:26:18 GMT -5
I am professing and obviously reading here and I will NOT take this lightly or stand back on this issue. I have read of this issue in other states and countries but when it's in your own backyard and your own children are at risk it certainly takes on a new level of meaning. I'm not saying I agree with the 'cover ups' in the past (quite the opposite ) but other than pray, one feels there isn't a lot they can meaningfully do in those cases when you don't know those involved. However, I am prepared to do what is necessary to help in this situation seeing as I presume fly would know the people involved. As yet I haven't been given any further details as to who this person is. I haven't slept all night worrying, praying and racking my brain trying to figure it out. If it is more than mere allegations (gossip) that this person has acted in this way, then this person needs to be exposed in the fellowship. I cannot agree with the comment that it would hinder us listening to this person as we would have preconceived thoughts about them and not take in the 'message'. God's servants are to live 'the truth' before us and others. If they aren't (and don't repent - which in my opinion would include being willing for the consequences of the law of the land) then they are no more than a hypocrite and should not have a place in the ministry. Perhaps there are other issues that I'm not aware of but from the way I see it, if those 'in the know' on this board are not willing to give the details of this person to people in Queensland, then how are they any different from those in the fellowship that cover it up? It is not enough to post on here 'be careful' when such a very small percentage if professing people in this state would ever see the post or hear of it. (No offence to any poster intended) Further, if I start going around saying 'be careful, a Qld worker has CSA allegations' I'm possibly going to be labeled a trouble maker and not taken much notice of unless there are some facts to back it up. Perhaps I being naive in my thoughts... Given I've had no experience in such matters before. There are 3 workers who I would happily meet with to discuss this issue and I'm prepared to do so. Please, if there is a reason this worker cannot be exposed here on this site could someone please pm me or ring or email me. Please pm me for details Thank you ~ I can see you really want to make a difference in your locale and I admire you courage. However, until the mentality at the top of the pyramid changes to one of real concern, I cannot see change taking place. I feel that if the friends value their fellowship, they need to take a united stand for change from within and not fear being shunned or marginalized. The strength of anybody's conviction depends upon how much they are willing to tolerate for truth and justice. Personally, I find it pretty hypocritical when people can protest a wrong in their midst and yet feel the need to do nothing to eradicate it? Perhaps that's why so many are leaving the Truth fellowship today? Perhaps they consider it a hopeless case when it comes down to evoking meaningful change from the top down? Seems some have worried that IF they knew of the alleged perpetrator worker's supposed actions, that when this worker spoke that those who knew what the worker allegedly had done would not be able to hear the message the poor alleged perp worker had spoken! Well, I think that all comes down to whether any speaker speaks with "authority"! And how would an alleged perp obtain "authority" to speak the gospel of Jesus Christ? I think Jesus told his Apostles in Mt. 28 what that required didn't He? Repentance and baptism? Repentance perhaps has to be of such that one has to face the one(s) they have (injured or trespassed against)....it's my understanding that not all sins can just be handled between the sinner and the Saviour...that whoever was sinned against must come into the restitution of the repentance! Then that forgiven sinner perhaps would have the "authority" in which they could preach the gospel of Jesus Christ! Think about it! The one thing that Jesus did repeatedly was to astound the chief priest, and the Pharisees and others was that he preached "with authority"...they couldn't allow themselves to understand why.......then they also witnessed the Apostles preached "with authority" as well......The Holy Spirit will not likely appear to someone who harbors a dirty little secret of sinning against someone so helpless as a little child, so again a CSA perp is not apt to receive the "authority" to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ! For the Gospel of Jesus Christ has not worked in him. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 22, 2014 11:27:13 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. When we asked about a certain worker with a long history of allegations (adult abuse/harassment), we were told that "the poor so and so is now not in the work because of what seems to be a false allegation." Another friend was told, regarding the same worker, that they "don't want to destroy a man." When we asked about the Australian worker who lost his place in the ministry because of expressing concerns regarding the handling of CSA issues, the "false allegations" card was used. What you say sounds very familiar and has been used with regard to some cases known to me where they should not have been used. I don't know the details of this particular case, but based on cases I do have knowledge of, I have no trust in the ministry to deal with any case with integrity and honesty until they have repented of past mistakes. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 22, 2014 11:46:04 GMT -5
You are correct, let's meet & prove that when I'm at Masterton or before /after. We were told by workers on two different continents to never talk to overseers without a "faithful witness" and that there is a danger of finding ourselves "misunderstood, outside alone and deserted." |
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Post by fixit on Oct 22, 2014 12:15:55 GMT -5
You are correct, let's meet & prove that when I'm at Masterton or before /after. We were told by workers on two different continents to never talk to overseers without a "faithful witness" and that there is a danger of finding ourselves "misunderstood, outside alone and deserted." I would need to see some positive input from Review005 here on TMB before I would have enough confidence in him to see any value in an off-line meeting. Also, Review005 has made unsubstantiated allegations against me on this open forum. I would need to know who made the allegations to him, and the specifics of what I am alleged to have done that has bent them out of shape. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 22, 2014 12:29:30 GMT -5
We were told by workers on two different continents to never talk to overseers without a "faithful witness" and that there is a danger of finding ourselves "misunderstood, outside alone and deserted." I would need to see some positive input from Review005 here on TMB before I would have enough confidence in him to see any value in an off-line meeting. Also, Review005 has made unsubstantiated allegations against me on this open forum. I would need to know who made the allegations to him, and the specifics of what I am alleged to have done that has bent them out of shape. I would have the same concerns if I was in your place. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 12:33:58 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. Thank you jimmy for your post, and you have expressed my exact thoughts. Our law is presumption of innocence, until proven guilty. The only place this can happen is in a Court of Law, not on TMB. I am concerned that TMB is becoming a Kangaroo Court. |
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Post by bubbles on Oct 22, 2014 16:07:20 GMT -5
Review do you know who fixit is in real life?
If you do why havent you phoned him?
It sounds like he is an elder in the meetings from what im reading.
If these are true.
Why havent you popped in?
Do you fear confrontation?
Whats happening between you both is not healthy.
Offering to meet via this forum if you know fixit is not the correct way to handle this problem.
IMO and yes I am mouthy. Its sloppy. You are going round in circles and the comments you make about fixit. One of your own are derogatory. It doesnt make for positive confidence.
In fact if any of my leaders had spoken about me the way you have about him I would have been devastated and trust would have flown out the window.
Mind you they wouldnt have spoken via net they had too much integrity.
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Post by fixit on Oct 22, 2014 16:22:46 GMT -5
Bubbles, Review005 made up his mind about me many years ago when he listened to allegations against me which I believe are unfounded.
I believe those allegations would be pretty meaningless if examined openly, but they've been swirling around in the gossip circles of system-minded people for a long time.
Such folks don't let the facts get in the way of a good story!
If Review005 had discussed these issues with me years ago they could have been resolved, but now that the accusation has been made on a public forum I think its appropriate for the facts to be presented on the same forum.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 22, 2014 16:49:04 GMT -5
I hear you.
I was the victim of gossip. It sux!!
The problem with gossip if you know you are innocent. Wait to be vindicated because one day you will.
Lies only stand for a while.
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Post by fred on Oct 22, 2014 19:31:51 GMT -5
Ah fixit, there you have it. Expect a phone call any time now to arrange a mutually acceptable time/place to discuss this problem. I wonder how long this has been festering and if decisions have been made in light of the allegation?
As an aside, it has been my experience that the first to tattle to the workers ( in most cases) gets believed, and there have been some pretty weird results. That being said, I am aware of one case where all parties were consulted and there was a positive outcome - this being the best way to resolve issues.
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Post by fixit on Oct 22, 2014 19:55:30 GMT -5
Ah fixit, there you have it. Expect a phone call any time now to arrange a mutually acceptable time/place to discuss this problem. I wonder how long this has been festering and if decisions have been made in light of the allegation? As an aside, it has been my experience that the first to tattle to the workers ( in most cases) gets believed, and there have been some pretty weird results. That being said, I am aware of one case where all parties were consulted and there was a positive outcome - this being the best way to resolve issues. It's been festering for well over a decade. Behind the scenes meetings hold no appeal right now - I too am aware of some pretty weird results. I would only be interested in discussing the issue if there was agreement to put it right with everyone who has heard the allegations. |
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Post by matisse on Oct 22, 2014 20:31:24 GMT -5
Excellent verse fixit, come out of your present shadowy anonymous TMB life and meet those you refer to as 'systems minded'. I have fears about all being exposed in the light of real day when brethren come as sit as fred encourages As fred correctly points out all parties must be consulted.They can't be consulted here, if if they know about tmb they certainly don't post. What is your hesitation in meeting real people in real life to discuss your 10 year festering wound. If you won't I can only assume your 'festering wound' is just another of your toys in your ' tmb play ground.' fixit I refuse to further contribute to the hijacking of this important Queensland alert thread with this 10 year old festering matter of yours that began before I knew TMB existed. I have nothing further to post on TMB about what needs to be addressed in real life. Is this the first time (this past month or so flurry of posting) that you or anyone else privy to the 10-year old "allegations" you have alluded to have sought to hear fixit's side of the story? |
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Post by matisse on Oct 22, 2014 20:41:41 GMT -5
matisse thank you, yes people need to sit down and talk it out face to face. Perhaps you'll be able to explain why one person won't.? Why are you pursuing this now if you did not 10 years ago when the "allegations" were made? I wouldn't blame fixit for questioning your motives. |
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Post by matisse on Oct 22, 2014 20:57:19 GMT -5
Mastisse You have it wrong, fixit is wishing to pursue it. If he wishes to sure I'll cooperate I have no fear of 100% of the matter being brought to the light. But it will be in real life with the real people who have no connection with TMB. I will not be party to a another one sided TMB kangaroo court session. It sounds to me like the kangaroo court was held 10 years ago when people complained to the workers without first talking to fixit and the workers didn't ask fixit for his side of the story. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2014 21:05:46 GMT -5
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, people go away and sort out your differences. We are sick of it. You had every right to start a separate thread and not corrupt this thread. You are destroying the integrity of TMB.
GOODBYE.
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 22, 2014 21:06:29 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. So what about the victims Jimmy? What is the saying .... where there is smoke there is fire ! The covering up & sending from one state to the other has gone on for long enough ! Considering the way things have been handled in Australia in regard to CSA the last few years victims know what will happen if they come forward. |
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Post by matisse on Oct 22, 2014 21:21:40 GMT -5
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, people go away and sort out your differences. We are sick of it. You had every right to start a separate thread and not corrupt this thread. You are destroying the integrity of TMB. GOODBYE. Think of it this way....the ongoing squabble is keeping the warning in the title of the thread front and center of "Recently Updated Threads". I am peripheral to the fight that has been going on across at least two threads. I am not convinced that it is irrelevant to this thread, since it involves a worker from the same part of the world that includes Queensland. If the fighting ever stops, perhaps he will contribute. |
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Post by fixit on Oct 22, 2014 21:33:24 GMT -5
I'll go away and leave Redback and concernedguest to get this thread back on subject.
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Post by matisse on Oct 22, 2014 21:36:35 GMT -5
Mastisse You have it wrong, fixit is wishing to pursue it. If he wishes to sure I'll cooperate I have no fear of 100% of the matter being brought to the light. But it will be in real life with the real people who have no connection with TMB. I will not be party to a another one sided TMB kangaroo court session. p.s. matisse, glad you write below 'it sounds to me'. You obviously haven't followed all the posts on tmb of the matter and more obviously so know NOTHING of the actual events and 'seems to me' you have performed your own little kangaroo court, imagined your evidence and given your judgement on what you know a little about! 8-) Cute. Edit an old post rather than post a new one. I have asked some good questions that anyone reading the long, multi-thread squabble might ask. You have not answered them, and instead have made what I would say has become a signature side-step. With this, I will follow fixit's lead and bow out of this thread. |
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Post by bubbles on Oct 22, 2014 21:49:09 GMT -5
Ah fixit, there you have it. Expect a phone call any time now to arrange a mutually acceptable time/place to discuss this problem. I wonder how long this has been festering and if decisions have been made in light of the allegation? As an aside, it has been my experience that the first to tattle to the workers ( in most cases) gets believed, and there have been some pretty weird results. That being said, I am aware of one case where all parties were consulted and there was a positive outcome - this being the best way to resolve issues. It's been festering for well over a decade. Behind the scenes meetings hold no appeal right now - I too am aware of some pretty weird results. I would only be interested in discussing the issue if there was agreement to put it right with everyone who has heard the allegations. For reconciliation to happen. The one who did the wrong would need to admit what they did/said (confess) humble themselves and ask for your forgiveness. Then everyone involved would need to open up and confess as well. |
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 22, 2014 22:04:55 GMT -5
After 4 pages -- anyone here willing to name this person for those parents who have no idea who this dangerous person is. Use the word "suspected". At least it will make the warning meaningful.
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Post by BobWilliston on Oct 22, 2014 22:39:16 GMT -5
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Post by magpie on Oct 22, 2014 22:46:07 GMT -5
Militant? Well? Why not?One in Queensland? Worldwide as other unbiblical celibate ministries and sects,Paedophilia becomes rampant.They may have felt at the begining that the mental disorder(paedophilia) could be escaped from by staying away from a natural family environment,NO it is a MENTAL DISORDER,medically it can be helped,with good counsilling and Pastoring can help,BUT THERE IS NO CURE.a life time sickness infliction. I can go back to the 1940's when a worker started on me early 1950's I,realised a second who later became a preacher,suddenly wasnt just being friendly. Then to hear him at a,closed to the greater community conventions,the months no one in the world can be saved,we are the only true ministry,all others false,people said I was placing myself in damnation when I left to worship amongst non-exclusive christians.THIS QUEENSLAND WARNING PLEASE TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. ALSO IT IS A WORLDWIDE WARNING? THINK OF BARRY AND CHANDLER IN VICTORIA,VIC POLICE HAVE 13 KNOWN VICTIMS NAMES OF BARRY,AND CHANDLERS YOUNGEST "9". ONE HAS JUST PASSED AWAY BUT AMONGST BROTHER AND SISTER WORKERS THE YOUNG FOLK STILL NAME 7 PREACHERS TO AVOID. 3xSUICIDES INC 2x YOUNG ARE CLEARLY ONE DOCUMENTED AS 3x PREACHERS SO THEY SENT ONE TO SOUTH AMERICA,HE WILL BE TO SCARED TO RETURN, BETWEEN "WINGS" DOCUMENTS lodged AT AUSTRALIAS ROYAL COMMISSION INTO CRIMINAL CSA,PLUS INDIVIDUALS SENDING THEIR KNOWLEGE of MANY 2x2 PREACHER VICTIMS, WOW? WILL THEY HAVE TO WEAR TV MAKEUP TO ENTER THE WITNESS BOX? THERE MAY BE A FUTURE TV STAR AMONGST THEM? "me" ONE OF THE MANY VICTIMS,NOW LIVING IN GODS GRACE...
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Post by rational on Oct 22, 2014 23:35:05 GMT -5
I am backing up redback. To date the rumours against this individual are totally unsubstantiated. By all means be careful but don't destroy a potentially innocent man based on innuendo. If no one will press charges then he is entitled to the presumption of innocence. The crime of raising a false allegation of CSA is almost as horrific as the crime of CSA itself in the trauma that it causes to the victim. I have seen how these reports have eaten into this man and the effect is that which I would expect of an innocent man - absolute devastation. Jimmy Forgive me but your post sounds like worker talk ken It sounds more like someone not letting emotions cloud their judgment. If there was a case of abuse this should serve to point out why it is so important that the victim/victim's guardians report it directly to the authorities. Failing to do that puts others at risk. |
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