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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 20:53:28 GMT -5
Sorry snow. Move them to another area until investigation is over.
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Post by mdm on Oct 23, 2014 21:18:50 GMT -5
maja, I hear you and agree with you. The Churches, society in general, we all have to lift our game. But what Jimmy and myself have been pointing out, is that innocent people can also have their lives destroyed. I am not going to go into detail, but some years ago I was charged by Police with assault. I was charged on summons without interview, and dragged off to Court. 4 days later and $30,000 out of pocket I was found not guilty. My Barrister pointed out to me that even though the evidence was contrived, it was strong,and I could wind up 12 months in gaol. The Judge almost believed 1 of about 6 witnesses. But his verdict was that the charges were not proven beyond reasonable doubt, and I was acquitted. I can tell you that as he delivered his verdict, I was biting my finger nails to the elbow. Not a pleasant experience, and one I would rather forget. Some people in that community think I was guilty, so I never go back there. I was innocent, as found by Court,but some people will never agree. It is hurtful. So as a society we have to come up with a system that convicts guilty, protects innocent. It has been pointed out that those who commit CSA have a mental problem. We need to care for peoples minds, and mental illness. Get a virus in your computer, renders it useless. Get a virus in your brain, not only do you become useless, you also become dangerous. In the past Churches have provided good brain food,but sadly people are leaving the Churches. It has created a vacuum, and people are getting the wrong brain food. Convention was a good source, sure there was some tripe, but also plenty of icecream to send you away inspired. Another source is needed for good brain food. We need more psychologists. I am truly sorry about what happened to you. I also don't think that CSA offenders should be discarded by the church. They need care and help, but first and foremost, they need to be removed from the position of trusted ministers that are sent to our homes. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 23, 2014 21:38:52 GMT -5
rational, still think they are sick. People with healthy minds don't do that. Some of the laws are based on the rules of specific societies and what is OK in one location may not be in another. Unhealthy and against society are two different things. On the far side of CSA, adults having sex with infants is generally considered unhealthy by any society. However, is a 23 year old female having a relationship with a 17 year old male unhealthy? Obviously, the two categories of CSA are vastly different. However, within the context of the fellowship, if a minister is having a "relationship" with a 17 year old child of professing people, it is sick because of the level of deception and probably abuse of place involved. |
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Post by snow on Oct 23, 2014 21:41:38 GMT -5
Sorry snow. Move them to another area until investigation is over. I see, thank you. |
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2014 23:26:06 GMT -5
Sorry snow. Move them to another area until investigation is over. Usually this is a decision of the court. |
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Post by rational on Oct 23, 2014 23:34:44 GMT -5
Some of the laws are based on the rules of specific societies and what is OK in one location may not be in another. Unhealthy and against society are two different things. On the far side of CSA, adults having sex with infants is generally considered unhealthy by any society. However, is a 23 year old female having a relationship with a 17 year old male unhealthy? Obviously, the two categories of CSA are vastly different. However, within the context of the fellowship, if a minister is having a "relationship" with a 17 year old child of professing people, it is sick because of the level of deception and probably abuse of place involved. I am not sure it would qualify as a mental issue but more of a moral/ethical issue. The test is would it be sick if the 17 year old child was an 18 year old adult? Or would it be immoral? For CSA to make sense in a discussion, the events need to be specified and well defined. Or definitions of CSA need to be more granular. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 0:27:16 GMT -5
Sorry snow. Move them to another area until investigation is over. Usually this is a decision of the court. We mean the time before charges are either made, or not made. If charges are made Court will follow. |
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Post by laurence on Oct 24, 2014 0:47:27 GMT -5
I often scan TMB but seldom post. The main reason for that is that most threads seem to start off on a serious subject and quickly degenerate, at least in part, into off-topic wrangling. This one has been no exception. Nevertheless the key topic keeps running through the distractions on this thread.
The issues of making false accusations of child sexual abuse is a serious one. However, there is ample research showing that about 95% of victim reports are true. There is also ample research showing that the average time between the abuse and reporting to authorities is more than 20 years. On this basis, the balance of probability is that victims should in the first instance be believed. This not only recognises the research findings but is probably the most important thing that has up to that point, and may ever, be done for the victim - to be believed.
There is also plenty of material (including on Wings) defining what constitutes child sexual abuse as well as behavioural guidelines for any 'official' that has contact with children.
Our police force has specially trained teams and police should always be the authority to whom reports of abuse are made.
If you feel inclined to require me to quote the research and documentation, I say to you that if you are purporting to offer knowledgeable comment on the subject of perpetration and prevention of child sexual abuse, you should have already reviewed the research and materials available before you launch into comment.
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Post by bubbles on Oct 24, 2014 5:21:06 GMT -5
Roselyn I agree, but an innocent person being harassed will want to go to another place. In my case, as long as I live I will never go back to the place where I was falsely accused. Of all the cases of molestation incest inappropriate touching, no one had the courage to speak out. It just wasnt done. You knew you wouldnt be believed. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 6:17:24 GMT -5
maja, I hear you and agree with you. The Churches, society in general, we all have to lift our game. But what Jimmy and myself have been pointing out, is that innocent people can also have their lives destroyed. I am not going to go into detail, but some years ago I was charged by Police with assault. I was charged on summons without interview, and dragged off to Court. 4 days later and $30,000 out of pocket I was found not guilty. My Barrister pointed out to me that even though the evidence was contrived, it was strong,and I could wind up 12 months in gaol. The Judge almost believed 1 of about 6 witnesses. But his verdict was that the charges were not proven beyond reasonable doubt, and I was acquitted. I can tell you that as he delivered his verdict, I was biting my finger nails to the elbow. Not a pleasant experience, and one I would rather forget. Some people in that community think I was guilty, so I never go back there. I was innocent, as found by Court,but some people will never agree. It is hurtful. So as a society we have to come up with a system that convicts guilty, protects innocent. It has been pointed out that those who commit CSA have a mental problem. We need to care for peoples minds, and mental illness. Get a virus in your computer, renders it useless. Get a virus in your brain, not only do you become useless, you also become dangerous. In the past Churches have provided good brain food,but sadly people are leaving the Churches. It has created a vacuum, and people are getting the wrong brain food. Convention was a good source, sure there was some tripe, but also plenty of icecream to send you away inspired. Another source is needed for good brain food. We need more psychologists. What you say here does have some validity. Yes there is vital need to care for people's illnesses including mental illnesses, and also for their spiritual well being , but it must be done properly professionally. Convention is a good source for spiritual food and interaction , but it must also be a place of safety for everyone including children. People must feel safe, if one does not feel safe, anxiety could block their concentration and appreciation of the atmosphere of their environment. You have mentioned that another source is needed for good brain food and that we need more psychologists; where is their a shortage of psychologists? in the world? in the country as a whole? or in the fellowship itself? May be there is room for psychologists in the fellowship and also in other churches. Then embarrassing matters would be kept within the confines of churches; however, satisfactory ways would have to be found to look after the interests of victims, and for their families (engaging professional counsellors perhaps).The danger or potential must also be removed. Ps. Where there is a problem existing, every effort should be made to solve it to the satisfaction of everyone involved or that are affected, it won't just go away, it would need a concerted effort made by those in authority , and with the cooperation of all others. |
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Post by rational on Oct 24, 2014 7:52:40 GMT -5
The issues of making false accusations of child sexual abuse is a serious one. However, there is ample research showing that about 95% of victim reports are true. There is also ample research showing that the average time between the abuse and reporting to authorities is more than 20 years. On this basis, the balance of probability is that victims should in the first instance be believed. This not only recognises the research findings but is probably the most important thing that has up to that point, and may ever, be done for the victim - to be believed. I think part of the issue here is that the victims do not always want to come forth and press their case. It is like police being called to a domestic abuse case but there is little they can do if the abused spouse will not press charges. Do you have a reference supporting the average 20+ year delay? I raise the question because research has shown (Hershkowitz, I., Horowitz, D., & Lamb, M.E. (2005). Trends in children’s disclosure of abuse in Israel: A national study) that that about 75% of children delayed disclosure for one-year. About 20% did not disclose until more than five years later - meaning that 80% disclosed within 5 years. That would make it difficult to result in a 20 year average delay unless the 20% delayed disclosing the incident for many, many decades. Of course, it is difficult to support any statistic when it is estimated by some that perhaps only 10% of the child abuse cases are reported. Not reporting could certainly increase the reporting delay time but is there any point in including those numbers in the statistics? There is a lot of information but when the allegations are made it is most often left at CSA which does not provide much information as to what the appropriate response should be. Hopefully, the courts will provide more specific details as well as guidelines for the specific case(s). A case of CSA between a young adult and a 17 year old does not present increased danger to prepubescent children. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 24, 2014 8:43:16 GMT -5
Obviously, the two categories of CSA are vastly different. However, within the context of the fellowship, if a minister is having a "relationship" with a 17 year old child of professing people, it is sick because of the level of deception and probably abuse of place involved. I am not sure it would qualify as a mental issue but more of a moral/ethical issue. The test is would it be sick if the 17 year old child was an 18 year old adult? Or would it be immoral? For CSA to make sense in a discussion, the events need to be specified and well defined. Or definitions of CSA need to be more granular. No, it's not "sick" as in a mental issue, but as in deceptive, base, dishonest, depraved. Yes, there is a problem with CSA definitions. In Mexico, legal age of consent is 12 at least in some areas. The moral/ethical/spiritual issue is the same in the context of the fellowship, regardless of secular laws.The church has to deal with these issues regardless of whether they are recognized by society and legal system and regardless of current and local secular definitions. |
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Post by rational on Oct 24, 2014 8:58:10 GMT -5
I am not sure it would qualify as a mental issue but more of a moral/ethical issue. The test is would it be sick if the 17 year old child was an 18 year old adult? Or would it be immoral? For CSA to make sense in a discussion, the events need to be specified and well defined. Or definitions of CSA need to be more granular. No, it's not "sick" as in a mental issue, but as in deceptive, base, dishonest, depraved. Yes, there is a problem with CSA definitions. In Mexico, legal age of consent is 12 at least in some areas. The moral/ethical/spiritual issue is the same in the context of the fellowship, regardless of secular laws.The church has to deal with these issues regardless of whether they are recognized by society and legal system and regardless of current and local secular definitions. I have felt that a solution for clearer discussions and understanding is to be specific when discussing the crimes. Unfortunately, when dealing with veiled allegations the specifics are not available. I agree that some acts are as you describe them but isn't it also possible that at the other end of the spectrum the acts people are being accused of are the result of normal human reactions? You pointed out the 12 year old age in Mexico but what about the 16/17 year old male who is not at all put off by the attention of a 30 year old woman. You could question the woman's judgement but would the words deceptive, base, dishonest, depraved really be a part of the description? The church has to deal with these events and judge them against the society within the church. That will define what is considered normal within that society but does not necessarily reflect what is normal from a human/biological point of view. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 24, 2014 14:04:08 GMT -5
No, it's not "sick" as in a mental issue, but as in deceptive, base, dishonest, depraved. Yes, there is a problem with CSA definitions. In Mexico, legal age of consent is 12 at least in some areas. The moral/ethical/spiritual issue is the same in the context of the fellowship, regardless of secular laws.The church has to deal with these issues regardless of whether they are recognized by society and legal system and regardless of current and local secular definitions. I have felt that a solution for clearer discussions and understanding is to be specific when discussing the crimes. Unfortunately, when dealing with veiled allegations the specifics are not available. I agree that some acts are as you describe them but isn't it also possible that at the other end of the spectrum the acts people are being accused of are the result of normal human reactions? You pointed out the 12 year old age in Mexico but what about the 16/17 year old male who is not at all put off by the attention of a 30 year old woman. You could question the woman's judgement but would the words deceptive, base, dishonest, depraved really be a part of the description? The church has to deal with these events and judge them against the society within the church. That will define what is considered normal within that society but does not necessarily reflect what is normal from a human/biological point of view. If the 30 year old woman is a preacher committed to celibacy and is involved in a romantic relationship in secret, then it's deceptive and all the rest. If the partner in this relationship is a child of parents who are opening their home to this 30 year old woman only because she is a trusted preacher and they are not informed of the relationship, then deceptive is too mild of a term to describe the woman. I am not sure I understand what you mean by judging "against the society within the church." What is considered normal within the society should not define what is normal for me or the church. The world I live in views what is normal from a human/biological point of view, but limits it to consensual adult relationships. In the Roman world, it was normal and legal for married men to have sex with their slaves and with boys with parental consent. Having sex with boys is today considered to be child abuse. The church shouldn't view sex as only a biological function, and it didn't in Roman times either, because the church should be about seeking to know the spiritual dimension of life. The church doesn't have to and shouldn't lower its standards to fit what is currently socially accepted. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 24, 2014 14:17:26 GMT -5
"Fear of false accusations" has been mentioned, and it is especially often mentioned by workers. This fear has paralyzed the ministry from acting even when there were more than one allegations and even when the offender has admitted an offense. I doubt that this fear is really the only or the true reason behind inaction. Here is an excerpt from correspondence between a victim and workers from just 4 years ago that illustrates my point: www.votisalive.com/content/was-long-time-coming-rest-story |
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 24, 2014 19:07:03 GMT -5
This is what happens when the workers think they are above the Law. "we try to deal with the culprits" Its not up to the workers to deal with it, their responsibility is to report it to the Police, until this way of thinking changes nothing will change.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 21:11:31 GMT -5
This thread has been an education for me, a lot of good comment. You begin to understand that CSA is a more complex problem than you first realize. Maybe the problem first started when Adam and Eve ate that apple. Things got worse when Cain murdered Abel. Now you are reluctant to turn on the news, Isis,Ebola, murders, etc. Of course I have become a GOM ( Grumpy Old Man), and as such become more cynical every day.I have started to wonder are there any answers. The Royal Commission in Australia ,looking into CSA has asked and received from the Government an extension of 2 years in time, to complete their task. So they too are having difficulty.
Some of us were kept on the straight and narrow.by the Church. Even so there were some in our midst committing indiscretions. Is this human failure?. Did the Influence of the Church reduce the numbers?.Is there any other medium to replace the Church. Psychiatrists?.
Yes some innocent people will be persecuted, some victims will never get justice. Both situations are equally bad. The answers are not easy to find. Not for one moment do I suggest we put it in the too hard basket. Let us hope the Royal Commission comes up with answers, but we will have to be patient.
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Post by fixit on Oct 24, 2014 23:02:22 GMT -5
Indiscretions is not a strong enough word to describe child sexual abuse.
One abused as a child has far more to cope with than a falsely accused adult (which is extremely rare unless a marriage breakdown or child custody is involved).
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Post by Deleted on Oct 24, 2014 23:24:29 GMT -5
Indiscretion. Doing something wrong that shows a lack of Judgement.
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Post by reallyandtruly on Oct 25, 2014 1:08:13 GMT -5
This is what happens when the workers think they are above the Law. "we try to deal with the culprits" Its not up to the workers to deal with it, their responsibility is to report it to the Police, until this way of thinking changes nothing will change. No Roselyn your right, it is not up to the workers to deal with it so why try and make them sort the problems. It should not be a worker problem - it us a legal issue end of story. |
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 25, 2014 3:50:07 GMT -5
This is what happens when the workers think they are above the Law. "we try to deal with the culprits" Its not up to the workers to deal with it, their responsibility is to report it to the Police, until this way of thinking changes nothing will change. No Roselyn your right, it is not up to the workers to deal with it so why try and make them sort the problems. It should not be a worker problem - it us a legal issue end of story. They still have a responsibility as a Fellowship/Church to report to the police, not try to fix the problem by sending workers from one state to another or by denying they have a problem (BIG). I think the Overseers are the ones that need to be sort the problem. Also in a way it is a worker problem if they are involved, they have to take responsibility for their actions. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2014 5:04:14 GMT -5
Shifting blame and dodging responsibilities never solve anything. Everyone with any conscience and authority to act and make a difference must do the correct and decent thing in a determined effort to solve the problem once and for all. It will not go away on its own; this is my final comment on the matter for what it's worth.
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2014 7:28:54 GMT -5
If the 30 year old woman is a preacher committed to celibacy and is involved in a romantic relationship in secret, then it's deceptive and all the rest. If the partner in this relationship is a child of parents who are opening their home to this 30 year old woman only because she is a trusted preacher and they are not informed of the relationship, then deceptive is too mild of a term to describe the woman. This is what I meant by "against the society within the church." Staying away from the spiritual issues for now, this is normal human behavior. It could be considered base within the society of the church. This was not addressing the social standards of the society that you live in but the fact that there are normal biological functions that humans, as part of being human, live by. While within your group you may not approve of the 30 year old and the 17 year old being sexual, it cannot be said that is a deviant behavior since male/female coupling is the normal state of relationships among humans. This is not addressing the morality of the situation from your personal view but rather is it normal human behavior. Ministers living as celibate individuals might be normal for a group and should they have relations with other adults it may be considered wrong but it should not be considered deviant. The deviant behavior is individuals being celibate. Issues arise when a group decides that, for example, the leaders should have their choice of females who reach the age of 13. While this is acceptable to their society it is not, to the general society, acceptable. Yet, from a human standpoint, that is normal behavior. Healthy males wanting to reproduce with healthy females is the normal course for humans. Over time societies have wrapped a normal biological function in layers and layers of 'rules' that are believed to be for the benefit of the species, society, specific groups, and many times for the benefit of the leaders. The value is questionable. For example - What is the value of being celibate? |
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Post by rational on Oct 25, 2014 7:55:53 GMT -5
Some of us were kept on the straight and narrow.by the Church. Even so there were some in our midst committing indiscretions. Is this human failure?. Did the Influence of the Church reduce the numbers?.Is there any other medium to replace the Church. Psychiatrists?. If the indiscretions you are referring to are the relationships between consenting adults could they be a normal expression of human sexual behavior? If you were referring to CSA it is dangerous to look at that behavior outside the bounds of society. When an organization states that within their society that is acceptable behavior yet the larges society condemns it - which view should be supported. Could it be the thin veneers of various societies and civilizations that defines and controls the behavior of humans is also the source of some of the problems that are exhibited? Perhaps this should be a topic for a different thread. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 27, 2014 10:05:45 GMT -5
If the 30 year old woman is a preacher committed to celibacy and is involved in a romantic relationship in secret, then it's deceptive and all the rest. If the partner in this relationship is a child of parents who are opening their home to this 30 year old woman only because she is a trusted preacher and they are not informed of the relationship, then deceptive is too mild of a term to describe the woman. This is what I meant by "against the society within the church." Staying away from the spiritual issues for now, this is normal human behavior. It could be considered base within the society of the church. This was not addressing the social standards of the society that you live in but the fact that there are normal biological functions that humans, as part of being human, live by. While within your group you may not approve of the 30 year old and the 17 year old being sexual, it cannot be said that is a deviant behavior since male/female coupling is the normal state of relationships among humans. This is not addressing the morality of the situation from your personal view but rather is it normal human behavior. Ministers living as celibate individuals might be normal for a group and should they have relations with other adults it may be considered wrong but it should not be considered deviant. The deviant behavior is individuals being celibate. Issues arise when a group decides that, for example, the leaders should have their choice of females who reach the age of 13. While this is acceptable to their society it is not, to the general society, acceptable. Yet, from a human standpoint, that is normal behavior. Healthy males wanting to reproduce with healthy females is the normal course for humans. Over time societies have wrapped a normal biological function in layers and layers of 'rules' that are believed to be for the benefit of the species, society, specific groups, and many times for the benefit of the leaders. The value is questionable. For example - What is the value of being celibate? Within the context of the church, I personally cannot stay away from "spiritual issues," nor can the church. From the biblical spiritual standpoint, there is no value in enforced celibacy, and NT even warns against it. |
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Post by mdm on Oct 27, 2014 10:16:19 GMT -5
No Roselyn your right, it is not up to the workers to deal with it so why try and make them sort the problems. It should not be a worker problem - it us a legal issue end of story. They still have a responsibility as a Fellowship/Church to report to the police, not try to fix the problem by sending workers from one state to another or by denying they have a problem (BIG). I think the Overseers are the ones that need to be sort the problem. Also in a way it is a worker problem if they are involved, they have to take responsibility for their actions. Once the overseers give the green light for allegations to be reported, the question that will still remain is what should be done in case of allegations that cannot be reported due to statute of limitations or if the worker does not reside any more in the place/country where abuse took place and can be reported. I have been told that the current consensus in the US ministry is to deal only with new allegations that can be reported. Of course, in the case of IH, something had to be done, because of the internet exposure and pressure. Without it, he would still be in the work. |
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Post by whyisitso on Oct 27, 2014 23:11:53 GMT -5
The current head worker wasn't head worker 4 years ago. I know he wasn't. But I know what the current Head Workers view was on CSA issues 4 years ago ! What was his view on it then? |
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Post by Roselyn T on Oct 28, 2014 1:12:51 GMT -5
I know he wasn't. But I know what the current Head Workers view was on CSA issues 4 years ago ! What was his view on it then? When asked if a man that was out on parole for abusing his daughter would be at a QLD convention, his response was we will not stop him also he said "If anyone needs convention it is that man". He then was jailed for the abuse. So he had no problem with allowing a known abuser who has been jailed go to convention..... need I say more ! |
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