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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 16:46:12 GMT -5
I stated on another thread that most victims are ex 2x2. FixIt asked me why I thought that.
Simple. Common Sense.
Secondly... Over a given span of time, say the past 50 years, I would submit that more people have left the 2x2s than have joined. I would think that the rate of the victims leaving the fellowship would be even greater than the general population of professing people as a whole. You know, the whole "offended" or "feelings hurt" thing that the friends and workers talk about whenever someone leaves due to a dispute.
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 17:16:28 GMT -5
Apparently we have to start new threads whenever we go off topic. This might be more messy than the old familiar "wandering off the topic" ways! This is from the "To Admin" thread: Most victims are ex 2x2. Wings seems to be saying that they don't want ex 2x2s, that their focus will be only on 2x2s. Why do you think most victims are ex-2x2s? Over a period of time of say, 20 years, more folks are ex 2x2 than stay 2x2. That's an interesting assumption Sac. It seems there's so much pressure for WINGS to become an ex-2x2 site because "most victims are ex 2x2s". Yet in reality you have no idea how many victims are still in the fellowship.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 17:52:57 GMT -5
Apparently we have to start new threads whenever we go off topic. This might be more messy than the old familiar "wandering off the topic" ways! This is from the "To Admin" thread: Most victims are ex 2x2. Wings seems to be saying that they don't want ex 2x2s, that their focus will be only on 2x2s. Over a period of time of say, 20 years, more folks are ex 2x2 than stay 2x2. That's an interesting assumption Sac. It seems there's so much pressure for WINGS to become an ex-2x2 site because "most victims are ex 2x2s". Yet in reality you have no idea how many victims are still in the fellowship. I would assume that you in reality have no idea how many victims are still in the fellowship either. I would think that I would be safer stating more are not in the fellowship than to state that more are in the fellowship. The point is, both sides need to be welcomed, just as they have been in the past. I am reminded of a famous quotation by Shakespeare in regards to Wings breaking victims into camps of ex's and 2x2s. "He hath disgraced me, and hindered me half a million; laughed at my losses, mocked at my gains, scorned my nation, thwarted my bargains, cooled my friends, heated mine enemies; and what's his reason? I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? hath not a Jew hands, organs, dimensions, senses, affections, passions? fed with the same food, hurt with the same weapons, subject to the same diseases, healed by the same means, warmed and cooled by the same winter and summer, as a Christian is? If you prick us, do we not bleed? if you tickle us, do we not laugh? if you poison us, do we not die? and if you wrong us, shall we not revenge?"
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 18:03:27 GMT -5
It seems there's so much pressure for WINGS to become an ex-2x2 site because "most victims are ex 2x2s". I am only asking that you not to forget that over half of your target audience is probably former members of the 2x2s. Whether you welcome them or not, is up to Wings.
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 18:20:06 GMT -5
I would assume that you in reality have no idea how many victims are still in the fellowship either. I would think that I would be safer stating more are not in the fellowship than to state that more are in the fellowship. The point is, both sides need to be welcomed, just as they have been in the past. Great, now you get the point. Those who are currently in the church are entitled to come to the WINGS site without being forced to sift through anti-2x2 rhetoric while learning about CSA. I need to ask you a question Sac.... Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 5, 2013 18:25:41 GMT -5
Professing Status of WINGS CSA STORY Authors on BTS
CSA stories by Ex 2x2s Anon2-but doesnt mention leaving meetings Anon3 - doesnt mention leaving meetings Jean Bob1 - doesnt mention leaving meetings - Note Last line: "Eldon Tenniswood passed away on May 23, 2003, and thingy Middleton passed away on Oct. 9, 2006." Bob2 - doesnt mention leaving meetings Charles Mattison Dale Gardner Kent DaleR Leigh Lindy Mike Nichole Robert Scott - doesnt mention leaving meetings Sheri Victoria –doesnt mention leaving meetings
CSA stories by 2x2s William – as far as I know... Carly Lisa – her story was on the OLD BTS, but is missing from the list now
Undetermined Anon1 - 1997
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 18:27:57 GMT -5
WINGS STORY Author professing statusCSA stories by Ex 2x2sAnon2 Anon3 Jean Bob1 Bob2 Charles Mattison Dale Gardners Kent DaleR Leigh Lindy Mike Nichole Robert Scott Sheri Victoria – but its not mentioned in her story CSA stories by 2x2sWilliam – as far as I know... Carly Lisa – her story was on the OLD BTS, but is missing from the list now UndeterminedAnon1 - 1997 Are you sure anon was for real?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2013 18:31:06 GMT -5
From the little I have read sexual assault prevention education distinguishes between primary, secondary and tertiary prevention activities. Different needs are identified and different approaches are the norm. Perhaps it is an unreasonable expectation that Wings can adequately cover all three areas of prevention education in relationship to CSA. I have not yet been able to locate literature that describes this directly in regards to CSA education and prevention programs.
In practical terms, current 2by2 victims may fit more into primary prevention, ex 2by2 victims more into secondary/tertiary.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 18:33:50 GMT -5
I would assume that you in reality have no idea how many victims are still in the fellowship either. I would think that I would be safer stating more are not in the fellowship than to state that more are in the fellowship. The point is, both sides need to be welcomed, just as they have been in the past. Great, now you get the point. Those who are currently in the church are entitled to come to the WINGS site without being forced to sift through anti-2x2 rhetoric while learning about CSA. I need to ask you a question Sac.... Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2? Again, I ask you, what is the anti-2x2 rhetoric on Wings that you keep referring to. You have yet to answer that question. I am am Pro 2x2 by the way. I profess, have a professing wife, and have 6 professing kids. But, beyond being an affiliate of the 2x2s, I am a Christian, and take Jesus's words very seriously, that HIS disciples love their enemies. The Pharisees only love those that love them.
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Post by holdmyhand on Jul 5, 2013 18:36:09 GMT -5
I would assume that you in reality have no idea how many victims are still in the fellowship either. I would think that I would be safer stating more are not in the fellowship than to state that more are in the fellowship. The point is, both sides need to be welcomed, just as they have been in the past. Great, now you get the point. Those who are currently in the church are entitled to come to the WINGS site without being forced to sift through anti-2x2 rhetoric while learning about CSA. I need to ask you a question Sac.... Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?oops I hit the wrong button on pressed "like" when I meant "quote" Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?that is a very black and white question, and we live in a grey world I am sure anyone who leans more to one view or the other can see positives in the opposite side instead of lumping everyone into one of two boxes and assuming they all hold the same views, it would be more helpful to discuss individual concerns, this I thought was a problem with the 'polls' we had, to many variables for me to vote either way.
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 18:44:23 GMT -5
Again, I ask you, what is the anti-2x2 rhetoric on Wings that you keep referring to. You have yet to answer that question. I would encourage victims to be truthful about their experiences but a line has to be drawn somewhere. WINGS shouldn't feel obliged to publish every victim statement, and IMO the following portion shouldn't be published. I feel it could do more harm than good and is counter-productive to the WINGS objectives. Take a look at this: stopbaptistpredators.org/survivor_stories.htmlDo you think they would publish the following story on their website? Do you think workers would encourage anyone to read the following story? In the last few years I have researched this "religion/cult" on the Internet & there's some REALLY good information available. I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE ANYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY INVOLVED OR IS THINKING ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED TO REALLY CHECK IT OUT! Seriously, BUYER BEWARE! This thing they call the "Truth" is not as it appears & there's a lot of information available that will give additional perspectives. God gave us a brain to question things with and a heart to have faith with. Use both!!! Here's just a FEW of the websites that have provided some eye opening answers and how the religion really works. My story is just one of MANY but the fact of the matter is that there are many perspectives on this religion and many TRUTHS that you will never be told about while you're involved in it. I know after being indoctrinated by it for 17 years as a kid and being told this is the ONLY way to get to heaven, that this is a guilt driven church made up of mans rules. The "man" being William Irvine, who is documented in creating this religion. Per the documentation he started the religion in 1897 in Ireland. Check it out for yourself. I suggest researching it for unbiased answers as it's quite hard to get clear, straight forward, honest answers from someone submersed in the religion. That's speaking from experience!!! www.veteransoftruth.com/www.thelyingtruth.info/vot/home_splash.phpcaic.org.au/zcoonies.htmwww.thelyingtruth.info/www.tellingthetruth.info/home/By the way, where in the bible does it say it's okay to go see a play but not go to a movie? Where does it say to watch movies, You Tube or TV shows on the Internet but don't have a TV? Just a few of their "hidden rules"! Why do the workers take money but not pay taxes? I know in my home we pay taxes on our income! Why is giving money to their church a hush-hush thing when it's a Biblical principal to tithe with a joyous heart??? Why does this church not believe in helping the needy and downtrodden? Why do they not teach about serving others less fortunate? Which is another biblical principal! When my cousin came home from open heart surgery and had to move his family where were the "friends" to help??? Isn't it what the bible to teaches to love and help each other? Why does this church teach that the only way to get to heaven is through this "religion" and that ALL other churches are "false religions"? Do you really thin k that God would create such a wonderful Universe & send everyone to hell that doesn't talk to a "worker"? Refer to the beginning of this email about the character and integrity of some of the workers and the leadership in the religion!! "They" refer to all other religions as "false religions" even if they ARE bible based Churches. They look down on religions that meet in buildings. Then why in the world is convention held in a building? What is the difference except that it's another one of their "unsaid and not to be challenged rules". Again, after being subjected to this religion for the entire time I lived in my parents home, this was & is the messages that were & are currently taught. Think about it!!!!!! I must ask you who told me that the church was NOT founded by William Irvine, have YOU ever REALLY researched it yourself on the Internet where there is so much info readily available? (You know who you are!) Or have you just listened to what others in that religion told you & just followed blindly instead of finding out for yourself? Don't question the "workers" and loose position with them right? I thought it was about worshiping God, NOT the WORKERS as is done in that religion. What "they" say goes doesn't it?! No questions asked if you want to remain in their favor. All this being said, don't take my word for it! Check it our for yourselves if you're brave enough too. I realize that for many of you this may be scary. What may be scarier is knowing that your daughters or sons maybe being molested right NOW by a "worker" in your home. Please parents above all else protect the innocence of your kids! You would not let any other stranger come into your home & sleep in the room next to your son or daughter would you? We all make decisions. I encourage you to not make them on a guilt driven basis (which is what this religion encourages) but to look at the FACTS and perspectives of others who have gotten out of the forest so they can see the trees.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 18:45:39 GMT -5
Great, now you get the point. Those who are currently in the church are entitled to come to the WINGS site without being forced to sift through anti-2x2 rhetoric while learning about CSA. I need to ask you a question Sac.... Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?oops I hit the wrong button on pressed "like" when I meant "quote" Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?that is a very black and white question, and we live in a grey world I am sure anyone who leans more to one view or the other can see positives in the opposite side instead of lumping everyone into one of two boxes and assuming they all hold the same views, it would be more helpful to discuss individual concerns, this I thought was a problem with the 'polls' we had, to many variables for me to vote either way. Exactly. Not all ex's are wanting the destruction of the 2x2s. Not all professing people are nice or even represent Christian values. Stereotyping is rarely accurate. Except for those damn Irish people always wanting to fight. (I am kidding, of course.... everyone knows it is those damn Aussies that love a good fight.)
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 18:53:14 GMT -5
Again, I ask you, what is the anti-2x2 rhetoric on Wings that you keep referring to. You have yet to answer that question. I would encourage victims to be truthful about their experiences but a line has to be drawn somewhere. WINGS shouldn't feel obliged to publish every victim statement, and IMO the following portion shouldn't be published. I feel it could do more harm than good and is counter-productive to the WINGS objectives. Take a look at this: stopbaptistpredators.org/survivor_stories.htmlNow tell me if you think they would publish the following on their website, and tell me if you think workers would encourage anyone to read it: In the last few years I have researched this "religion/cult" on the Internet & there's some REALLY good information available. I STRONGLY ENCOURAGE ANYONE WHO IS CURRENTLY INVOLVED OR IS THINKING ABOUT GETTING INVOLVED TO REALLY CHECK IT OUT! Seriously, BUYER BEWARE! This thing they call the "Truth" is not as it appears & there's a lot of information available that will give additional perspectives. God gave us a brain to question things with and a heart to have faith with. Use both!!! Here's just a FEW of the websites that have provided some eye opening answers and how the religion really works. My story is just one of MANY but the fact of the matter is that there are many perspectives on this religion and many TRUTHS that you will never be told about while you're involved in it. I know after being indoctrinated by it for 17 years as a kid and being told this is the ONLY way to get to heaven, that this is a guilt driven church made up of mans rules. The "man" being William Irvine, who is documented in creating this religion. Per the documentation he started the religion in 1897 in Ireland. Check it out for yourself. I suggest researching it for unbiased answers as it's quite hard to get clear, straight forward, honest answers from someone submersed in the religion. That's speaking from experience!!! www.veteransoftruth.com/www.thelyingtruth.info/vot/home_splash.phpcaic.org.au/zcoonies.htmwww.thelyingtruth.info/www.tellingthetruth.info/home/By the way, where in the bible does it say it's okay to go see a play but not go to a movie? Where does it say to watch movies, You Tube or TV shows on the Internet but don't have a TV? Just a few of their "hidden rules"! Why do the workers take money but not pay taxes? I know in my home we pay taxes on our income! Why is giving money to their church a hush-hush thing when it's a Biblical principal to tithe with a joyous heart??? Why does this church not believe in helping the needy and downtrodden? Why do they not teach about serving others less fortunate? Which is another biblical principal! When my cousin came home from open heart surgery and had to move his family where were the "friends" to help??? Isn't it what the bible to teaches to love and help each other? Why does this church teach that the only way to get to heaven is through this "religion" and that ALL other churches are "false religions"? Do you really thin k that God would create such a wonderful Universe & send everyone to hell that doesn't talk to a "worker"? Refer to the beginning of this email about the character and integrity of some of the workers and the leadership in the religion!! "They" refer to all other religions as "false religions" even if they ARE bible based Churches. They look down on religions that meet in buildings. Then why in the world is convention held in a building? What is the difference except that it's another one of their "unsaid and not to be challenged rules". Again, after being subjected to this religion for the entire time I lived in my parents home, this was & is the messages that were & are currently taught. Think about it!!!!!! I must ask you who told me that the church was NOT founded by William Irvine, have YOU ever REALLY researched it yourself on the Internet where there is so much info readily available? (You know who you are!) Or have you just listened to what others in that religion told you & just followed blindly instead of finding out for yourself? Don't question the "workers" and loose position with them right? I thought it was about worshiping God, NOT the WORKERS as is done in that religion. What "they" say goes doesn't it?! No questions asked if you want to remain in their favor. All this being said, don't take my word for it! Check it our for yourselves if you're brave enough too. I realize that for many of you this may be scary. What may be scarier is knowing that your daughters or sons maybe being molested right NOW by a "worker" in your home. Please parents above all else protect the innocence of your kids! You would not let any other stranger come into your home & sleep in the room next to your son or daughter would you? We all make decisions. I encourage you to not make them on a guilt driven basis (which is what this religion encourages) but to look at the FACTS and perspectives of others who have gotten out of the forest so they can see the trees. This is the victim that had the brother worker that sang a Hall and Oates song to her about her being a maneater? Nah, I can't imagine why she doesn't harbor nice thoughts toward the fellowship. Hall and Oates suck. I would be mad too. It is the ladies opinion. It seems fine to me. As I had written before, that part of her story that you posted is barely 30% of her story. (Before someone misunderstand what I am saying here- I am not accusing you of deliberately only posting part of her story- I know that you aren't doing that.) The other 70% of her story deals directly with the abuse. I see no sense to censor the letter as it makes it appear that Wings is covering for the 2x2s, and I didn't think that was something that Wings was obligated to do. It also makes the 2x2s seem insecure and not able to handle any dissenting view- which is far worse than what the lady had written in her letter. (As a 2x2, I say, bring on the questions and concerns.) By censoring the letter, it gives the letter more power and makes everyone want to read it- and they will- on other sites- and that then gives those sites the truthful right to proclaim that Wings censors victims letters so as to shield the 2x2 fellowship. That then neuters Wings credibility for being about victims. If what the lady write is true, and no one disputes that it is, or that those are her heartfelt opinions, then let it go. My opinion.
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 19:00:03 GMT -5
Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?that is a very black and white question, and we live in a grey world I am sure anyone who leans more to one view or the other can see positives in the opposite side instead of lumping everyone into one of two boxes and assuming they all hold the same views, it would be more helpful to discuss individual concerns, this I thought was a problem with the 'polls' we had, to many variables for me to vote either way. Thank you! WINGS needs to be 2x2 agnostic to achieve its objectives. Unfortunately some people on TMB perceive the neutral stance of WINGS as "not standing up to the workers" and "being controlled by workers".
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 19:09:52 GMT -5
The other 70% of her story deals directly with the abuse. I see no sense to censor the letter as it makes it appear that Wings is covering for the 2x2s, and I didn't think that was something that Wings was obligated to do. That's something I find sad about this story - it has a great deal to contribute to the cause of ridding the fellowship of CSA yet it descents into anti-2x2 propaganda which spoils it IMO. If you want to "harden up" friends and workers, take them to Brad's site or VOT or something. WINGS is not there to convince friends and workers that their church is an evil cult that they all should walk away from.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 19:12:28 GMT -5
Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2?that is a very black and white question, and we live in a grey world I am sure anyone who leans more to one view or the other can see positives in the opposite side instead of lumping everyone into one of two boxes and assuming they all hold the same views, it would be more helpful to discuss individual concerns, this I thought was a problem with the 'polls' we had, to many variables for me to vote either way. Thank you! WINGS needs to be 2x2 agnostic to achieve its objectives. Unfortunately some people on TMB perceive the neutral stance of WINGS as "not standing up to the workers" and "being controlled by workers". Except that you aren't being neutral. Neutral would be not to censor ex 2x2 or current 2x2 letters. Nothing could be more neutral. Also, Scott and you are deliberately obfuscating the issue- my point is that you are covering for the 2x2s and shilling for the 2x2 doctrine, which shouldn't be a function. You are trying to appease the 2x2s. Scott said that plainly. It was after Scott's quote that the whole controversy erupted. He wrote: "This was the reason given as to why people (mainly workers) would be reluctant to refer those within the fellowship to WINGS." It is what it is.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 19:16:11 GMT -5
The other 70% of her story deals directly with the abuse. I see no sense to censor the letter as it makes it appear that Wings is covering for the 2x2s, and I didn't think that was something that Wings was obligated to do. That's something I find sad about this story - it has a great deal to contribute to the cause of ridding the fellowship of CSA yet it descents into anti-2x2 propaganda which spoils it IMO. If you want to "harden up" friends and workers, take them to Brad's site or VOT or something. WINGS is not there to convince friends and workers that their church is an evil cult that they all should walk away from. Then delete her story. No one is stopping Wings from doing such. I have already described as to why that would be foolish- I am sure that Brad and the other so-called hate sites will post the letter and mention how that it was once hosted on WINGS but that then WINGS decided that it was just too full of hate and deleted it. Plus, her letter references a worldly song. Just the existence of Wings makes the fellowship look bad. Google is equal opportunity. Brad's site pops up prominently in many searches. If you don't want to control the message, someone else will.
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Post by fixit on Jul 5, 2013 20:46:54 GMT -5
That's something I find sad about this story - it has a great deal to contribute to the cause of ridding the fellowship of CSA yet it descents into anti-2x2 propaganda which spoils it IMO. If you want to "harden up" friends and workers, take them to Brad's site or VOT or something. WINGS is not there to convince friends and workers that their church is an evil cult that they all should walk away from. Then delete her story. No one is stopping Wings from doing such. I have already described as to why that would be foolish- I am sure that Brad and the other so-called hate sites will post the letter and mention how that it was once hosted on WINGS but that then WINGS decided that it was just too full of hate and deleted it. Plus, her letter references a worldly song. Just the existence of Wings makes the fellowship look bad. Google is equal opportunity. Brad's site pops up prominently in many searches. If you don't want to control the message, someone else will. As you say, the very existence of WINGS makes the fellowship look bad. So why does anyone get the ridiculous idea that workers control WINGS??? As you say, there are plenty of anti-2x2 sites to bash the church. So why does anyone expect WINGS to be in that business??? I maintain that WINGS should be neither pro nor anti 2x2. Child sexual abuse is far too important an issue to be sidetracked in that way.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 5, 2013 20:52:41 GMT -5
Then delete her story. No one is stopping Wings from doing such. I have already described as to why that would be foolish- I am sure that Brad and the other so-called hate sites will post the letter and mention how that it was once hosted on WINGS but that then WINGS decided that it was just too full of hate and deleted it. Plus, her letter references a worldly song. Just the existence of Wings makes the fellowship look bad. Google is equal opportunity. Brad's site pops up prominently in many searches. If you don't want to control the message, someone else will. As you say, the very existence of WINGS makes the fellowship look bad. So why does anyone get the ridiculous idea that workers control WINGS??? As you say, there are plenty of anti-2x2 sites to bash the church. So why does anyone expect WINGS to be in that business??? I maintain that WINGS should be neither pro nor anti 2x2. Child sexual abuse is far too important an issue to be sidetracked in that way. Again. Delete her story. That is what you are wanting to do.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 1:42:46 GMT -5
Sacerdotal -- Of course .. the vast majority of CSA victims become exes -- How many exploited people remain in fan clubs for their exploiters? And this is a sticky issue if a CSA site is going to be regarded as 'pro 2x2', as it obviously aims at being regarded.
Although I don't agree with it, I understand Wings present policy. It is based on the assumption that the danger and problems of dealing with CSA lie within 2x2isms central core, and that to reach these people, the embarrassing aspects of victims stories must be suppressed -- Wings reasons that if they are non suppressed and not moved out of focus, the folks Wings wishes to reach won't come to the site at all.
To me it is a meaningless strategy!!! I could hope that it will work, but I doubt it very very much - This is the only way I can understand the recent policy swing in Wings leadership the last while.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 7:44:34 GMT -5
You also have a group of so called borderline saints who rarely attend meetings.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2013 7:48:50 GMT -5
Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2? ** Does a person have to be either one?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 10:07:05 GMT -5
Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2? ** Does a person have to be either one? No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. But, if you can write in a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 6, 2013 10:09:52 GMT -5
Sacerdotal -- Of course .. the vast majority of CSA victims become exes -- How many exploited people remain in fan clubs for their exploiters? And this is a sticky issue if a CSA site is going to be regarded as 'pro 2x2', as it obviously aims at being regarded. Thanks, Edgar. I, too thought that that was obvious. My point being, is that Wings is cutting off the largest part of the folks that it could be a help to and help them find healing from the cruel treatment that the received from the 2x2s. To expect them to come bearing roses instead of pitchforks is ludicrous.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 6, 2013 11:03:56 GMT -5
Very good point, Edgar!
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Post by blandie on Jul 6, 2013 14:34:24 GMT -5
Sacerdotal -- Of course .. the vast majority of CSA victims become exes -- How many exploited people remain in fan clubs for their exploiters? And this is a sticky issue if a CSA site is going to be regarded as 'pro 2x2', as it obviously aims at being regarded. I don't know about what is a majority but at least some do stay in and keep quiet and even worse I know some that leave turn around and go back into the same abusive situation. Not everyone has the gumption to shuck everything they know to build a new life for themself and suffering in silence or enduring continuing abuse can seem the easier alternative. If we look at CSA and other abuse in other churches those types of silent people who endure instead of leaving don't start to come out and start to heal until after others drive home the point in a major way like a class action lawsuit. It seems to me that class action lawsuits with financial consequences have been the prime agent in getting other churches to make necessary and serious environmental changes. I don't see much mention of that in these discussions except as a negative though legal actions might be the biggest factor for good in the CSA area both for victims and for the F&W setup in the long term. I expect it will happen eventually but it also seems like it will have to be brave people who are strong enough to get things going in that direction without encouragement from folks here and willing to risk condemnation from even some marginal reformers and exes.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 6, 2013 15:39:24 GMT -5
It has to be recognized that there are distinct voices or themes in the struggle for change. As WINGS has published guidelines that it hopes will be adopted, it is difficult to conceive of it also initiating or spearheading a class action lawsuit, as an example. Yet that could be an important weapon in forcing change. Also, I don't see that WINGS is responsible for airing every victim's story. As pointed out above, other more adversarial sites may be more suitable for some stories. This isn't censorship but a question of WINGS finding it's own voice. It does not and can not be all things to all people.
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Post by fixit on Jul 6, 2013 16:29:12 GMT -5
Are you pro-2x2 or anti-2x2? ** Does a person have to be either one? No, you just can't be anti 2x2 to write in a story to Wings. That is what this thread is about. So, if a worker or one of the friends or even your dad sexually assaulted you as a member of the 2x2s, and you submit your story to Wings, and tell them that the workers lied like dogs to cover for the fellowship, because the image of the fellowship is all that matters, then even though what you wrote is true and factual, Wings current policy is probably not to publish it because it will likely be deemed anti 2x2. But, if you can write in a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published. Sac, do you realise you could do a lot of damage spreading lies like that? I think all the letters that relate to CSA within the fellowship are currently available here: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/They're also here: wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=storiesWhich ones fit your ridiculous criteria? ...a sweet letter, saying that the poor misunderstood workers were just products of their time, and absolve the fellowship of all responsibility, and blame the issue on family dysfunction, then that letter will in all likely hood be published.WINGS shouldn't be bullied into keeping all these stories there indefinitely, but for now at least they are there and what you're saying is a lie. Here are the offenders: wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/convicted-csa-offenders/
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