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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 7, 2013 11:31:48 GMT -5
Yes, all except for Lisa's story are posted here: thelibertyconnection.info/I have a copy of Lisa's story, but do not have contact information to request permission to post it on the above website. Had all of those stories once been on Wings? Ferns and Lisas were posted on the original WINGS website. Marges was posted and removed some time ago after complaints.
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Post by fixit on Jul 7, 2013 15:18:10 GMT -5
FixIt has posted what he considered to be anti 2x2. I am not the ones defining the terms or the contents, that is you guys. Jesse Lackman also submitted linked to a letter that he considered to be anti 2x2. I personally think that if the friends and workers can't figure out that a person that has been traumatized by a worker or a system of cover up is probably not going to speak glowingly of the fellowship, then that just speaks more to the delusions of the fellowship. You're still wildly off the mark Sac. Who has ever suggested that victim stories should speak glowingly of the fellowship? Which of the following stories speaks glowingly of the fellowship? wingsfortruth.info/breaking-the-silence-2/victim-stories/wingsbts.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=storiesHas a victim story ever spoken glowingly of the fellowship? Do you think the excerpt I posted earlier adds anything of value to Sheri's story?
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Post by What Hat on Jul 7, 2013 16:18:33 GMT -5
Is there actually any letter where you have a problem with WINGS handling? I don't. But Jesse Lackman has posted an example of one that he has a problem with, and Fixit has posted one that he has a problem with. And Cherie has posted a few that are missing. And Scott has made it plain that if the abuse letter is ALSO anti 2x2, it will not be posted. But you don't have any particular problem, just a general problem? Also given the letters that are already there, what that is relevant to child abuse do you feel is missing?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 17:05:46 GMT -5
I don't. But Jesse Lackman has posted an example of one that he has a problem with, and Fixit has posted one that he has a problem with. And Cherie has posted a few that are missing. And Scott has made it plain that if the abuse letter is ALSO anti 2x2, it will not be posted. But you don't have any particular problem, just a general problem? Also given the letters that are already there, what that is relevant to child abuse do you feel is missing? I have a problem with Wing's reasoning for the moving of the letters to make the site more appealing to the friends and workers.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 7, 2013 17:26:35 GMT -5
But you don't have any particular problem, just a general problem? Also given the letters that are already there, what that is relevant to child abuse do you feel is missing? I have a problem with Wing's reasoning for the moving of the letters to make the site more appealing to the friends and workers. I do get that. However, we (I mean, the board and hopefully, you) DO want the site to be appealing to the friends and workers so they will use it. Personally, I think of it as deacon work for the group. And they may never accept it either; that is recognized. But the effort has to be made. I hope you also get the idea from Scott's posting that WINGS is not afraid to publish information critical of the group as long as it pertains to CSA. In addition, the BTS forum is a 'free speech' zone, subject only to constraints on libel.
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Post by Greg on Jul 7, 2013 18:07:48 GMT -5
But you don't have any particular problem, just a general problem? Also given the letters that are already there, what that is relevant to child abuse do you feel is missing? I have a problem with Wing's reasoning for the moving of the letters to make the site more appealing to the friends and workers. With victim letters containing other negativity of the F&W, the F&W are 0% (or some other number) likely to suggest Wings to a CSA victim among the F&W. With victim letters containing other negativity removed to another site, but still linkable, the F&W are 1% (or some other number) more likely to suggest Wings to a CSA victim within their fellowship. Is that the problem you have?
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Post by fixit on Jul 7, 2013 18:19:25 GMT -5
But you don't have any particular problem, just a general problem? Also given the letters that are already there, what that is relevant to child abuse do you feel is missing? I have a problem with Wing's reasoning for the moving of the letters to make the site more appealing to the friends and workers. Sac, I'm trying to understand your logic. Do you think its important that CSA in the fellowship is addressed at the same time as all the other issues? i.e. professing victims, well-meaning friends and workers need to view all the anti-2x2 sites together? They need to come to terms with everything that is "wrong" with their church in the opinion of all the anti-2x2 websites? Can you see any merit in dealing with CSA as a standalone issue?
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 19:04:41 GMT -5
I have a problem with Wing's reasoning for the moving of the letters to make the site more appealing to the friends and workers. Sac, I'm trying to understand your logic. Do you think its important that CSA in the fellowship is addressed at the same time as all the other issues? i.e. professing victims, well-meaning friends and workers need to view all the anti-2x2 sites together? They need to come to terms with everything that is "wrong" with their church in the opinion of all the anti-2x2 websites? Can you see any merit in dealing with CSA as a standalone issue? The onus isn't on me to prove or judge the purity of the motives of the victims for writing their stories. I think that that is a tough undertaking, trying to judge the motives of another. As I had written earlier, if the victim wants to throw rocks at the house of her abuser, then let her throw rocks.
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Post by fixit on Jul 7, 2013 19:46:43 GMT -5
A big challenge seems to be how to differentiate between honest remarks that put the church in a bad light (which WINGS is OK with) and comments driven by an anti-2x2 agenda that dilute the CSA message and make it "everything about this evil cult is bad and it needs to be shut down".
CSA is not unique to the fellowship.
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Post by snow on Jul 7, 2013 20:06:14 GMT -5
A big challenge seems to be how to differentiate between honest remarks that put the church in a bad light (which WINGS is OK with) and comments driven by an anti-2x2 agenda that dilute the CSA message and make it "everything about this evil cult is bad and it needs to be shut down". CSA is not unique to the fellowship. No it's not. But it is understandable how someone might 'think' it was if that was the only life they knew. We all view things differently and someone doing that is viewing it that way and it inevitably gets to be part of the 'story'.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 7, 2013 21:08:11 GMT -5
A big challenge seems to be how to differentiate between honest remarks that put the church in a bad light (which WINGS is OK with) and comments driven by an anti-2x2 agenda that dilute the CSA message and make it "everything about this evil cult is bad and it needs to be shut down". CSA is not unique to the fellowship. It's mainly an issue as to whether the writer stays on topic or not. The more problematic texts have little or nothing to do with CSA. If the writer digresses into William Irvine, the Trinity and other things, what does that have to do with CSA.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 7, 2013 21:35:01 GMT -5
What Hat asked: It's mainly an issue as to whether the writer stays on topic or not. The more problematic texts have little or nothing to do with CSA. If the writer digresses into William Irvine, the Trinity and other things, what does that have to do with CSA.
As I wrote earlier on another thread: It has a lot to do with it. Learning about the short 2x2 history which leads to the realization that the F&W Fellowship is not God's ONLY true church has helped some victims find healing, as noted in some of the victims stories. The 2x2 history IS inextricably tied to the healing of those CSA victims who were B&R, which Jean was. Allow me to explain. Many victims were raised to believe they were part of God’s only true way on earth. Along comes a nice, friendly respected worker who befriends you, courts you, talks pretty to you--and then sexually abuses you. He further betrays you by letting you take unwarranted blame and suffer shame and sometimes punishment. He doesn’t apologize. You are left with the effects of CSA which permeates and utterly ruins your life. Your Abuser is an authority in God's only true church that is alleged to be “perfect,” and yet he has done this atrocity to you. Further some people recognize this child molester as a “Man of God,” and highly revere him. The “justice” of it all is mind boggling. It makes no sense. For you to get to heaven, you believe you MUST be in this way. That means you must submit to his authority and that of others like him. Authority figures you DO NOT & CANNOT TRUST. Its an endless cycle of despair and depression. You don’t want to go to hell. You cringe in fear at the thought; have nightmares about it. You are depressed—yet you cannot make yourself be a part of a church that allows and enables men like him to do this and to continue to do it to others. You live in agony that you will die at any moment and go to hell. A CSA victim believing the church is “God’s only way” has MAJOR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE! Due to this, you require medication and counseling just to function physically and go on living every day of your life. WHY? All because you believe the lie that that church is “God’s only true way.” You have no way to deal with your emotions toward this man. You hate him. You cannot begin to think of forgiving him. Yet workers and family tell you the Bible says that you MUST forgive him or you will go to hell. They also tell you that you must come back to the church you ran away from to get away from your abuser because it’s God's only true way. If/When the Victim discovers that the F&W church wasnt started with Jesus on the shores of Galilee, but rather was started by a man a little over 110 years ago—they usually realize that means it is not God’s only way on earth—Jesus is "the only way." They don’t have to be or stay inside that particular church to get to heaven. They realize they wont go to hell for refusing to be a part of a religious system that enabled men to abuse them, a system that cares more about the Abuser than the Victims. Learning the F&W church isn’t “God’s only way,” and finding out that the workers do not have a franchise on God lets the prisoner go free if s/he chooses. Now you finally have is peace in an area where there had been much pain, agony, guilt, etc. There is a gentle ebbing away of some of the cognitive dissonance…they no longer feel they have to be a part of something their Abuser is a part of, and they don’t have to submit to him and/or others like him to get to Heaven. For B&R adult victims of CSA—learning that the workers’ church is not God’s only way (thru the history) can play a HUGE part in their healing and finding peace. This historical truth becomes a door that allows the CSA Victim to pass thru and escape their cognitive dissonance. They are no longer trapped. They can even worship in another church if they choose, once they realize God is not found only in this one particular church. Sure most victims may still have a long way to go to recover, if they ever do, but the trap has been sprung. History opens doors that were previously closed to them. IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Why? I suggest the reason could be so the abused person who read the CSA stories won't see leaving meetings as a viable option.
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Post by findingtruth on Jul 7, 2013 21:36:07 GMT -5
I am am Pro 2x2 by the way. I profess, have a professing wife, and have 6 professing kids. But, beyond being an affiliate of the 2x2s, I am a Christian, and take Jesus's words very seriously, that HIS disciples love their enemies. The Pharisees only love those that love them. sac, I'd like a little better understanding of exactly what you're saying here. I may have misunderstood your message here. You are "pro 2x2" and believe that Jesus' disciples should love their enemies. What I am understanding from that simple statement is that you recognize all ex-2x2s as "enemies". In reality you have been discussing both exes and innies. Is this how you feel? That exes are enemies? And I ask, Ex-what? Because I wish to make it clear that most likely the majority of those who were called by God out of the fellowship sought a deeper relationship with Christ and understood that Christ never wanted His people to divide themselves. It was the divisive and condemning nature of the 2x2 system that was intolerable for many who felt compelled to leave. Labeling anyone not of the 2x2 fellowship as enemies or "outsiders"is a method of division and I dare say that if you believe in Christ and wish to be transformed by Christ you will have no tolerance for such division and will recognize all others who love and follow Christ as friends and not as enemies.
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Post by sacerdotal on Jul 7, 2013 21:52:35 GMT -5
I am am Pro 2x2 by the way. I profess, have a professing wife, and have 6 professing kids. But, beyond being an affiliate of the 2x2s, I am a Christian, and take Jesus's words very seriously, that HIS disciples love their enemies. The Pharisees only love those that love them. sac, I'd like a little better understanding of exactly what you're saying here. I may have misunderstood your message here. You are "pro 2x2" and believe that Jesus' disciples should love their enemies. What I am understanding from that simple statement is that you recognize all ex-2x2s as "enemies". In reality you have been discussing both exes and innies. Is this how you feel? That exes are enemies? And I ask, Ex-what? Because I wish to make it clear that most likely the majority of those who were called by God out of the fellowship sought a deeper relationship with Christ and understood that Christ never wanted His people to divide themselves. It was the divisive and condemning nature of the 2x2 system that was intolerable for many who felt compelled to leave. Labeling anyone not of the 2x2 fellowship as enemies or "outsiders"is a method of division and I dare say that if you believe in Christ and wish to be transformed by Christ you will have no tolerance for such division and will recognize all others who love and follow Christ as friends and not as enemies. I am saying that the 2x2 ministers teach Phariseeism in doctrine and deed. They ONLY love those that love them. Everyone else is going to burn in hell as far as they are concerned. I am saying that I am trying to get them to adopt what Jesus taught- love everyone. HIS disciples would be known because they love their enemies. And for their love for the brethren. The 2x2 leadership has part of the doctrine right, they just need to figure out how to get the rest of it right. I am with you, there should be no division within the Body.
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Post by fixit on Jul 7, 2013 21:54:09 GMT -5
IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Why? I suggest the reason could be so the abused person who read the CSA stories won't see leaving meetings as a viable option. This is why WINGS needs a mix of innies and exes on the advisory board - to keep WINGS neither pro-2x2 or anti-2x2. CSA is too important an issue to be diverted away to an anti-2x2 agenda.
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Post by emy on Jul 7, 2013 22:56:23 GMT -5
Will the survivor ever find a safe spiritual/social group? Or spend the rest of his/her life searching for something that doesn't exist? With the help of God, we can find peace with those who have offended us, even if they don't repent. At least the Bible says we can.
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2013 1:58:22 GMT -5
Will the survivor ever find a safe spiritual/social group? Or spend the rest of his/her life searching for something that doesn't exist? With the help of God, we can find peace with those who have offended us, even if they don't repent. At least the Bible says we can. Often the abuser is a family member, and it splits families into antagonistic camps. Its not always practical to break off all ties. CSA survivors should never be expected to forgive their offender though. Power was stolen from the victim by the offender, and pressure to forgive is adding to that feeling of powerlessness. CSA is infinitely more serious than other forms of offending. Its not unusual for a victim to see suicide as the only option to end a life of misery. CSA is up there with the greatest of evils, but many friends and workers don't realize that yet.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 4:30:27 GMT -5
What Hat asked: It's mainly an issue as to whether the writer stays on topic or not. The more problematic texts have little or nothing to do with CSA. If the writer digresses into William Irvine, the Trinity and other things, what does that have to do with CSA.
As I wrote earlier on another thread: It has a lot to do with it. Learning about the short 2x2 history which leads to the realization that the F&W Fellowship is not God's ONLY true church has helped some victims find healing, as noted in some of the victims stories. The 2x2 history IS inextricably tied to the healing of those CSA victims who were B&R, which Jean was. Allow me to explain. Many victims were raised to believe they were part of God’s only true way on earth. Along comes a nice, friendly respected worker who befriends you, courts you, talks pretty to you--and then sexually abuses you. He further betrays you by letting you take unwarranted blame and suffer shame and sometimes punishment. He doesn’t apologize. You are left with the effects of CSA which permeates and utterly ruins your life. Your Abuser is an authority in God's only true church that is alleged to be “perfect,” and yet he has done this atrocity to you. Further some people recognize this child molester as a “Man of God,” and highly revere him. The “justice” of it all is mind boggling. It makes no sense. For you to get to heaven, you believe you MUST be in this way. That means you must submit to his authority and that of others like him. Authority figures you DO NOT & CANNOT TRUST. Its an endless cycle of despair and depression. You don’t want to go to hell. You cringe in fear at the thought; have nightmares about it. You are depressed—yet you cannot make yourself be a part of a church that allows and enables men like him to do this and to continue to do it to others. You live in agony that you will die at any moment and go to hell. A CSA victim believing the church is “God’s only way” has MAJOR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE! Due to this, you require medication and counseling just to function physically and go on living every day of your life. WHY? All because you believe the lie that that church is “God’s only true way.” You have no way to deal with your emotions toward this man. You hate him. You cannot begin to think of forgiving him. Yet workers and family tell you the Bible says that you MUST forgive him or you will go to hell. They also tell you that you must come back to the church you ran away from to get away from your abuser because it’s God's only true way. If/When the Victim discovers that the F&W church wasnt started with Jesus on the shores of Galilee, but rather was started by a man a little over 110 years ago—they usually realize that means it is not God’s only way on earth—Jesus is "the only way." They don’t have to be or stay inside that particular church to get to heaven. They realize they wont go to hell for refusing to be a part of a religious system that enabled men to abuse them, a system that cares more about the Abuser than the Victims. Learning the F&W church isn’t “God’s only way,” and finding out that the workers do not have a franchise on God lets the prisoner go free if s/he chooses. Now you finally have is peace in an area where there had been much pain, agony, guilt, etc. There is a gentle ebbing away of some of the cognitive dissonance…they no longer feel they have to be a part of something their Abuser is a part of, and they don’t have to submit to him and/or others like him to get to Heaven. For B&R adult victims of CSA—learning that the workers’ church is not God’s only way (thru the history) can play a HUGE part in their healing and finding peace. This historical truth becomes a door that allows the CSA Victim to pass thru and escape their cognitive dissonance. They are no longer trapped. They can even worship in another church if they choose, once they realize God is not found only in this one particular church. Sure most victims may still have a long way to go to recover, if they ever do, but the trap has been sprung. History opens doors that were previously closed to them. IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Why? I suggest the reason could be so the abused person who read the CSA stories won't see leaving meetings as a viable option. What hat -- Neither I nor my wife are first hand survivors of CSA -- but we both work with the issue daily -- I am employed by Social services in a little city close to us --- My wife works for the justice department as a social worker in a locked institution for teenage girls (the vast majority are CSA victims in some way) . In all the information we get on the subject of helping victims one principle is basic. I am aware that there are certain differences in national approaches to the issue, but a basic principles in our country in CSA damage control, is the will and capacity to unconditionally listen to the the unabridged feelings and emotions of victims. This freedom of expression is basic respect for the problem -- and it is NOT unusual that feelings go off on different tangents. Although I doubt if American principles differ on this principle, it seems to me that Wings has expressed a purposefull disregard of this basic principle our country regards as paramount. Another principle regarded as basic is the need of building up basic trust and and confidence in the genuine will to support.. Disregard for this is also a major failing in my opinion. Asking victims to trust anonymous unidentifiable people just because they are capable of writing well sounding pages of writings is unrealistic. In folks that have experienced a betrayal of trust -- outward promises of good will are not all that significant
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2013 4:46:38 GMT -5
I am aware that there are certain differences in national approaches to the issue, but a basic principles in our country in CSA damage control, is the will and capacity to unconditionally listen to the the unabridged feelings and emotions of victims. This freedom of expression is basic respect for the problem -- and it is NOT unusual that feelings go off on different tangents. Although I doubt if American principles differ on this principle, it seems to me that Wings has expressed a purposefull disregard of this basic principle our country regards as paramount. Good to know you're experienced in getting the unabridged feelings and emotions of victims and posting them online. Could you give us some links so we can check them out please?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 4:57:44 GMT -5
What Hat asked: It's mainly an issue as to whether the writer stays on topic or not. The more problematic texts have little or nothing to do with CSA. If the writer digresses into William Irvine, the Trinity and other things, what does that have to do with CSA.
As I wrote earlier on another thread: It has a lot to do with it. Learning about the short 2x2 history which leads to the realization that the F&W Fellowship is not God's ONLY true church has helped some victims find healing, as noted in some of the victims stories. The 2x2 history IS inextricably tied to the healing of those CSA victims who were B&R, which Jean was. Allow me to explain. Many victims were raised to believe they were part of God’s only true way on earth. Along comes a nice, friendly respected worker who befriends you, courts you, talks pretty to you--and then sexually abuses you. He further betrays you by letting you take unwarranted blame and suffer shame and sometimes punishment. He doesn’t apologize. You are left with the effects of CSA which permeates and utterly ruins your life. Your Abuser is an authority in God's only true church that is alleged to be “perfect,” and yet he has done this atrocity to you. Further some people recognize this child molester as a “Man of God,” and highly revere him. The “justice” of it all is mind boggling. It makes no sense. For you to get to heaven, you believe you MUST be in this way. That means you must submit to his authority and that of others like him. Authority figures you DO NOT & CANNOT TRUST. Its an endless cycle of despair and depression. You don’t want to go to hell. You cringe in fear at the thought; have nightmares about it. You are depressed—yet you cannot make yourself be a part of a church that allows and enables men like him to do this and to continue to do it to others. You live in agony that you will die at any moment and go to hell. A CSA victim believing the church is “God’s only way” has MAJOR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE! Due to this, you require medication and counseling just to function physically and go on living every day of your life. WHY? All because you believe the lie that that church is “God’s only true way.” You have no way to deal with your emotions toward this man. You hate him. You cannot begin to think of forgiving him. Yet workers and family tell you the Bible says that you MUST forgive him or you will go to hell. They also tell you that you must come back to the church you ran away from to get away from your abuser because it’s God's only true way. If/When the Victim discovers that the F&W church wasnt started with Jesus on the shores of Galilee, but rather was started by a man a little over 110 years ago—they usually realize that means it is not God’s only way on earth—Jesus is "the only way." They don’t have to be or stay inside that particular church to get to heaven. They realize they wont go to hell for refusing to be a part of a religious system that enabled men to abuse them, a system that cares more about the Abuser than the Victims. Learning the F&W church isn’t “God’s only way,” and finding out that the workers do not have a franchise on God lets the prisoner go free if s/he chooses. Now you finally have is peace in an area where there had been much pain, agony, guilt, etc. There is a gentle ebbing away of some of the cognitive dissonance…they no longer feel they have to be a part of something their Abuser is a part of, and they don’t have to submit to him and/or others like him to get to Heaven. For B&R adult victims of CSA—learning that the workers’ church is not God’s only way (thru the history) can play a HUGE part in their healing and finding peace. This historical truth becomes a door that allows the CSA Victim to pass thru and escape their cognitive dissonance. They are no longer trapped. They can even worship in another church if they choose, once they realize God is not found only in this one particular church. Sure most victims may still have a long way to go to recover, if they ever do, but the trap has been sprung. History opens doors that were previously closed to them. IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Why? I suggest the reason could be so the abused person who read the CSA stories won't see leaving meetings as a viable option. What hat -- Neither I nor my wife are first hand survivors of CSA -- but we both work with the issue daily -- I am employed by Social services in a little city close to us --- My wife works for the justice department as a social worker in a locked institution for teenage girls (the vast majority are CSA victims in some way) . In all the information we get on the subject of helping victims one principle is basic. I am aware that there are certain differences in national approaches to the issue, but a basic principles in our country in CSA damage control, is the will and capacity to unconditionally listen to the the unabridged feelings and emotions of victims. This freedom of expression is basic respect for the problem -- and it is NOT unusual that feelings go off on different tangents. Although I doubt if American principles differ on this principle, it seems to me that Wings has expressed a purposefull disregard of this basic principle our country regards as paramount. Another principle regarded as basic is the need of building up basic trust and and confidence in the genuine will to support.. Disregard for this is also a major failing in my opinion. Asking victims to trust anonymous unidentifiable people just because they are capable of writing well sounding pages of writings is unrealistic. In folks that have experienced a betrayal of trust -- outward promises of good will are not all that significant In my opinion, both Edgar and Cherie are hitting the nail hard on the head. I have admiration for those on WINGS and elsewhere who are seeking to address issues of CSA within the F&W's church as best they can. I have no intention nor wish to undermine the gains made nor the commitment of others. However, I am seeing more and more that the problem is far more deep rooted than CSA in an isolated context and therefore a greater awareness and vision in tackling CSA must embrace a far broader perspective. I am extremely grateful to Bob Williston for his extensive posting on Emotional and Spiritual abuse. This in my opinion is what WINGS should be founded upon in order to have a more professional approach, even though it is done on a voluntary basis. It is clear from the various studies carried out that spiritual abuse is responsible for, or creates an environment in which, other forms of abuse flourish. Tackle spiritual abuse properly and effectively and you will have a real, measurable effect on other forms of abuse. Unfortunately the F&W's sect was largely built upon a foundation of spiritual abuse. It became part of the culture. Although spiritual abuse is indeed committed by individuals upon individuals, it is also largely a copy cat behaviour and an integral part of the sect's culture AND IS NECESSARY in order to hold the whole framework together. Spiritual abuse is a necessary control tool within the sect. Here's the dilemma. Remove spiritual abuse and the whole thing will collapse!
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Post by fixit on Jul 8, 2013 5:43:48 GMT -5
It is clear from the various studies carried out that spiritual abuse is responsible for, or creates an environment in which, other forms of abuse flourish. Tackle spiritual abuse properly and effectively and you will have a real, measurable effect on other forms of abuse. The 2x2 church is no more spiritually abusive than the Catholic Church. I refer to the CC simply because its much larger and studies are available. An examination of the best studies suggests that priests abuse at about the rate found in the general population.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 6:38:51 GMT -5
It is clear from the various studies carried out that spiritual abuse is responsible for, or creates an environment in which, other forms of abuse flourish. Tackle spiritual abuse properly and effectively and you will have a real, measurable effect on other forms of abuse. The 2x2 church is no more spiritually abusive than the Catholic Church. I refer to the CC simply because its much larger and studies are available. An examination of the best studies suggests that priests abuse at about the rate found in the general population. Fixit, this observation is a distraction. It is like saying "the 2x2 church is no more child sex abusive than the Catholic Church." Two wrongs don't make something right. If a problem is to be solved, it should not be deflected. Shouldn't the only true church take the lead in showing the others how things should be done? Haven't they been standing by that principle in other aspects of their belief system?
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 8, 2013 8:52:31 GMT -5
True. WINGS has been asked to also handle spiritual abuse concerns, sexual abuse other than CSA concerns, doctrinal concerns..... etc. However, our focus needs to remain on one aspect that we wish to help with, and that is one that is not only about children, but is also illegal and needs eradicated.
Again, it needs to be pointed out that we have not censored/altered any of the stories in any way since originally posted on WINGS. We are taking a look at them, and need to make sure we have permission to use them. However, we also need to make sure that any stories that we list also fit in with our goals stated on WINGS.
Of course the BTS board is one where people can post their thoughts in their own words in our open forum area. In that case, we would reserve the right to alter any such posts that might be libelous in regard to forum rules, but it is a much more open atmosphere for someone to clarify their thoughts in their own words. Any stories that have had help in writing/editing are going to have the editors perspective added into them in some form. A post from an individual is in their own words, and from their own perspective. There would be less chance of others blaming the editor of interjecting their bias or prejudices into what is posted.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 8:59:37 GMT -5
True. WINGS has been asked to also handle spiritual abuse concerns, sexual abuse other than CSA concerns, doctrinal concerns..... etc. However, our focus needs to remain on one aspect that we wish to help with, and that is one that is not only about children, but is also illegal and needs eradicated.
Again, it needs to be pointed out that we have not censored/altered any of the stories in any way since originally posted on WINGS. We are taking a look at them, and need to make sure we have permission to use them. However, we also need to make sure that any stories that we list also fit in with our goals stated on WINGS. Of course the BTS board is one where people can post their thoughts in their own words in our open forum area. In that case, we would reserve the right to alter any such posts that might be libelous in regard to forum rules, but it is a much more open atmosphere for someone to clarify their thoughts in their own words. Any stories that have had help in writing/editing are going to have the editors perspective added into them in some form. A post from an individual is in their own words, and from their own perspective. There would be less chance of others blaming the editor of interjecting their bias or prejudices into what is posted. Thanks Scott. A I've said previously I have no dog in the various WINGS fights. I just see a need to address CSA from a broader platform, which could also help address other abuse issues "including" worker to worker abuse. Hopefully what you have said will take flight and give an eagle's eye view of things?
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Post by jondough on Jul 8, 2013 10:30:42 GMT -5
It is clear from the various studies carried out that spiritual abuse is responsible for, or creates an environment in which, other forms of abuse flourish. Tackle spiritual abuse properly and effectively and you will have a real, measurable effect on other forms of abuse. The 2x2 church is no more spiritually abusive than the Catholic Church. I refer to the CC simply because its much larger and studies are available. An examination of the best studies suggests that priests abuse at about the rate found in the general population. Not to get distracted on this, but when you refer to "general population". How much of what you call "general population" includes other organized environments? Environments such as Boy Scouts, sports teams, clubs, schools - both private and public, and many many others. I would guess the majority. It seems that there are some common denominators in most cases that make for a dangerous environment. It has to do with an adult held on a pedestal of some type, and a child vulnerably trusting them. This would be the case even in a family structure. In all cases, it seems that education would be the best prevention. So I guess, the more extreme the dangerous environment becomes, the more likelihood that CSA could occur....i.e. The One and only true ministers of God.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 8, 2013 11:00:57 GMT -5
Scott wrote: Again, it needs to be pointed out that we have not censored/altered any of the stories in any way since originally posted on WINGS. We are taking a look at them, and need to make sure we have permission to use them. However, we also need to make sure that any stories that we list also fit in with our goals stated on WINGS.
You might check with me on those you dont find permissions...I have a "Permissions Folder." I may have some that you dont have. I think it would be a good idea to asking the authors to include their permission at the end of their stories...and posting it along with their stories. I have started doing that with new TLC stories.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 8, 2013 11:25:43 GMT -5
What Hat asked: It's mainly an issue as to whether the writer stays on topic or not. The more problematic texts have little or nothing to do with CSA. If the writer digresses into William Irvine, the Trinity and other things, what does that have to do with CSA.
As I wrote earlier on another thread: It has a lot to do with it. Learning about the short 2x2 history which leads to the realization that the F&W Fellowship is not God's ONLY true church has helped some victims find healing, as noted in some of the victims stories. The 2x2 history IS inextricably tied to the healing of those CSA victims who were B&R, which Jean was. Allow me to explain. Many victims were raised to believe they were part of God’s only true way on earth. Along comes a nice, friendly respected worker who befriends you, courts you, talks pretty to you--and then sexually abuses you. He further betrays you by letting you take unwarranted blame and suffer shame and sometimes punishment. He doesn’t apologize. You are left with the effects of CSA which permeates and utterly ruins your life. Your Abuser is an authority in God's only true church that is alleged to be “perfect,” and yet he has done this atrocity to you. Further some people recognize this child molester as a “Man of God,” and highly revere him. The “justice” of it all is mind boggling. It makes no sense. For you to get to heaven, you believe you MUST be in this way. That means you must submit to his authority and that of others like him. Authority figures you DO NOT & CANNOT TRUST. Its an endless cycle of despair and depression. You don’t want to go to hell. You cringe in fear at the thought; have nightmares about it. You are depressed—yet you cannot make yourself be a part of a church that allows and enables men like him to do this and to continue to do it to others. You live in agony that you will die at any moment and go to hell. A CSA victim believing the church is “God’s only way” has MAJOR COGNITIVE DISSONANCE! Due to this, you require medication and counseling just to function physically and go on living every day of your life. WHY? All because you believe the lie that that church is “God’s only true way.” You have no way to deal with your emotions toward this man. You hate him. You cannot begin to think of forgiving him. Yet workers and family tell you the Bible says that you MUST forgive him or you will go to hell. They also tell you that you must come back to the church you ran away from to get away from your abuser because it’s God's only true way. If/When the Victim discovers that the F&W church wasnt started with Jesus on the shores of Galilee, but rather was started by a man a little over 110 years ago—they usually realize that means it is not God’s only way on earth—Jesus is "the only way." They don’t have to be or stay inside that particular church to get to heaven. They realize they wont go to hell for refusing to be a part of a religious system that enabled men to abuse them, a system that cares more about the Abuser than the Victims. Learning the F&W church isn’t “God’s only way,” and finding out that the workers do not have a franchise on God lets the prisoner go free if s/he chooses. Now you finally have is peace in an area where there had been much pain, agony, guilt, etc. There is a gentle ebbing away of some of the cognitive dissonance…they no longer feel they have to be a part of something their Abuser is a part of, and they don’t have to submit to him and/or others like him to get to Heaven. For B&R adult victims of CSA—learning that the workers’ church is not God’s only way (thru the history) can play a HUGE part in their healing and finding peace. This historical truth becomes a door that allows the CSA Victim to pass thru and escape their cognitive dissonance. They are no longer trapped. They can even worship in another church if they choose, once they realize God is not found only in this one particular church. Sure most victims may still have a long way to go to recover, if they ever do, but the trap has been sprung. History opens doors that were previously closed to them. IMO, that's why learning about the F&W history is important to some CSA victims...and some on here want to edit that part of the victim's experience out of their stories!!! Why? I suggest the reason could be so the abused person who read the CSA stories won't see leaving meetings as a viable option. Thanks for this, Cherie, in relating your experience. This opens up quite a range of issues related to counseling and assisting victims/ survivors. My main role on WINGS is in the area of advocacy and I'm out of my depth in several respects, but I think I can say the following with some confidence: * The exclusivity of the friends' beliefs create a trap for the victim as you rightly point out. That is, if the victim buys into the friends' beliefs, they are then restricted in terms of agency in resolving those issues. If they continue to believe, they are stuck with ministers who have abused and covered up, and possibly family and friends who deny the problem and blame the victim. The exclusivity trap needs to be broken for the victim. * At the same time, there are other escape narratives than the one suggested by this sample narrative. In fact, I'm leery of a victim's beliefs being undermined, relationships broken, re-established in a new church, only to find that abuse exists in that ministry also. * The experts indicate that the victim needs professional counselling outside the religion and I would think outside of the entire pro-/ anti- 2x2 debate narrative. * Different victims will need to take very different routes to healing, depending on their particular situation, personal beliefs, support within the church and support outside the church. * Some churches/ denominations are at a point where they can help with the healing process. But I don't need to write 1000 words on the pre-requisites required; I think we all agree that the friends are nowhere near what is needed in terms of providing any kind of support. Professional counsellors and community workers who deal with these issues are leery of almost ALL churches, and typically would rather not involve the church, even the best ones. Can you blame them? The real answer for victims of the f&w church is independent professional counselling, I believe. Where does this leave us in terms of victims' letters? I believe WINGS has to be careful not to over-reach in terms of victim support, which is what the letters are primarily for. I can't form an opinion myself without properly understanding WINGS goals in terms of victim support. So I don't have a response or personal opinion at this point in time. The question of victims' letters in terms of advocacy is a different one. I believe the goal there is to communicate the harms that have been caused to the victim, in the first place, through the abuse, but in the second place, through secondary wounding. The harm caused by exclusivity is very important to get across from the perspective of advocacy. However, at that level of information it's also important not to unduly restrict the victim's options. Finally, everyone on the WINGS board is against censoring letters in any way other than for libel issues. But WINGS also reserves the right to publish what they choose.
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Post by CherieKropp on Jul 8, 2013 11:30:27 GMT -5
what wrote: My main role on WINGS is in the area of advocacy
Could you explain what you mean by "the area of advocacy"?
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